The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Discussions
Locked
Balmoral95
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2295
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 4:14 am
Location: The Free Nambia Healthcare Nirvana

Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Balmoral95 » Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:51 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:Monty:
This is definately not made up except by the NMT.

Classic: We're talking IMT here, narischkopf. :roll: :roll: :roll:
In fairness to montgomery, he picked this up from VFX, who first made this goof.
Respectfully, the comment stands: they're interchangeable in terms of incompetence. :D

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 22585
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:52 am

True. LOL
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 22585
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:53 am

Which raises another puzzler: which one of them is the "Moe" - or are they both "Curly"?
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

montgomery
BANNED
Posts: 953
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:30 pm

Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by montgomery » Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:54 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:LOL well Sackowicz remains:

1) Winer
Montgomery completely screwed up his attempt to substitute a bowdlerized version of Winer's testimony, and Hans caught out each of his errors when he popped off. So Winer remains an open discussion point - on which VFX hasn't chimed in and montgomery has retreated into embarrassed silence.

2) Direct-eyewitness accounts to lobster steaming gas ovens of the 40's and 50's to which this pair are referring
Montgomery at last admitted that he is clueless ("I have no idea") and VFX finally, after erroneously insisting that the direct eyewitnesses were the Polish underground (!), acknowledged that he doesn't know or care about any of it and is willing to post fabrications. So, with both jokers unable and unwilling to answer Nick, I guess we've reached the end on this one.

3) Sakowicz
Montgomery's first response was to try to find a pretext for chickening out, but, nah, Sakowicz's testimony is still open for discussion.

4) We can conclude now that the lobster steaming ovens were nothing more than another instance of begging for sympathy on the holocaust. Much like the lampshades horrors, the nuclear terrorizing of the Jews, The super scary shadow on the wall, and the whole gas chamber scam. It is indeed time to move on to the next installment of the holocaust sideshow.


What took you so long?

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 22585
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:58 am

montgomery wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:LOL well Sackowicz remains:

1) Winer
Montgomery completely screwed up his attempt to substitute a bowdlerized version of Winer's testimony, and Hans caught out each of his errors when he popped off. So Winer remains an open discussion point - on which VFX hasn't chimed in and montgomery has retreated into embarrassed silence.

2) Direct-eyewitness accounts to lobster steaming gas ovens of the 40's and 50's to which this pair are referring
Montgomery at last admitted that he is clueless ("I have no idea") and VFX finally, after erroneously insisting that the direct eyewitnesses were the Polish underground (!), acknowledged that he doesn't know or care about any of it and is willing to post fabrications. So, with both jokers unable and unwilling to answer Nick, I guess we've reached the end on this one.

3) Sakowicz
Montgomery's first response was to try to find a pretext for chickening out, but, nah, Sakowicz's testimony is still open for discussion.

4) We can conclude now that the lobster steaming ovens were nothing more than another instance of begging for sympathy on the holocaust. Much like the lampshades horrors, the nuclear terrorizing of the Jews, The super scary shadow on the wall, and the whole gas chamber scam. It is indeed time to move on to the next installment of the holocaust sideshow.


What took you so long?
We have noticed that fabricating content and evidence is all you two have left. Here you give us one more abject admission of your dishonesty and games playing. We have also noticed that your humiliating failures in attempting to discuss 1940s witnesses have been so complete that you and VFX now want to change the topic. Sorry, no, you guys threw in the towel on "steam chamber" witnesses, so we are still proceeding with Winer and Sackowicz.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

montgomery
BANNED
Posts: 953
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:30 pm

Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by montgomery » Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:08 am

VFX wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
VFX wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:So you made it up that Fischer testified at the IMT about steam chambers! Awesome!
Does that testimony make one iota of a difference one way or another to the fact that people were claimed to be Crustaceans. To us it makes no difference if the la Lobster claim was mickey mouse or his brother Ricky Rodent: it was made, it went public and was put to a Judge or Judges and no doubt influenced the legal proceedings. From memory one offence was dealt with by hanging and the other by shooting. Don't quote me on this but think of the poor executioner: "which comes first the hanging or the shooting"?
It makes a difference that you made it up. Or Carlos Porter did.
This is definately not made up except by the NMT. Its OK if you state they are bogus we know that as well.
Image
This one is obviously a wrap to even the most jaded of H.P.'ers. And s&m wants to move on so badly now that he's into his serial posting to himself mode. Are you happy that they have the message shoved down their throats enough now or would you like to continue just for the sport of it?

Or should we let the good doctor wrap it up with the last word?

Really, it's a real mystery to me why they are so adamant on trying to deny that the crustaceans were being steamed to death. It's on of dozens of examples of crude attempts to tell naughty stories. Not a lot more condemning than the very scary shadow on the wall trick.

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 22585
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:09 am

LOL I tried for the better part of the day to get you guys to answer Nick's simple question to re-kickstart discussion of this, you failed, then you gave up.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 22585
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:12 am

Hey montgomery, will you be posting any more falsified Winer testimony? will your sidekick - or are you his sidekick - be lying about any other IMT testimony soon?
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

montgomery
BANNED
Posts: 953
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:30 pm

Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by montgomery » Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:28 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Hey montgomery, will you be posting any more falsified Winer testimony? will your sidekick - or are you his sidekick - be lying about any other IMT testimony soon?
I'll contribute off and on as I see fit and you're not going to be able to embarrass me. The facts are in, due to the magnificent job VFX has done with his outstanding knowledge of the whole topic.

And you even slipped into 'posting nastiness to yourself again, as you have done in the past when you've become too upset to go to bed.

So if VFX gives the o.k. then this lobster cookout is a done deal. Why was it so important anyway when there are dozens of examples of lies, exaggerations, b.s. just like it? It's no worse than the shadow on the wall that the H.P. side would like to blame on the other side! Get over it; you'll live to fight another day!

montgomery
BANNED
Posts: 953
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:30 pm

Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by montgomery » Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:35 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:LOL I tried for the better part of the day to get you guys to answer Nick's simple question to re-kickstart discussion of this, you failed, then you gave up.
Did Nick ask another question that I haven't answered? I thought you and nick got a good answer. Suffice to say that his witness testimony was dated 2003. Is anything more needed? Let me know?

Your example was just a wild goose chase again and you even mentioned proactively that he would be saying more that we would be having big problems with. I'm not going to go there with you because you've been rude and insulting and Nick didn't choose to do it that way because he keeps his manners under control.

I think a good topic to work on now would be Nick finding us something of substance that was written in the 40's by some witness that didn't go and completely step in the dog sh-t with the usual exaggerations that challenge the imagination. I think there actually may not be one.

If you think of one, run it through Nick and get him to bring it/him/her up. You can't be trusted anymore.

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9191
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:56 am

montgomery wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Hey montgomery, will you be posting any more falsified Winer testimony? will your sidekick - or are you his sidekick - be lying about any other IMT testimony soon?
I'll contribute off and on as I see fit and you're not going to be able to embarrass me. The facts are in, due to the magnificent job VFX has done with his outstanding knowledge of the whole topic.

And you even slipped into 'posting nastiness to yourself again, as you have done in the past when you've become too upset to go to bed.

So if VFX gives the o.k. then this lobster cookout is a done deal. Why was it so important anyway when there are dozens of examples of lies, exaggerations, b.s. just like it? It's no worse than the shadow on the wall that the H.P. side would like to blame on the other side! Get over it; you'll live to fight another day!
VFX only posted a portion of that document. Would you like to see it again?
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

montgomery
BANNED
Posts: 953
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:30 pm

Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by montgomery » Tue Oct 02, 2018 4:10 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Hey montgomery, will you be posting any more falsified Winer testimony? will your sidekick - or are you his sidekick - be lying about any other IMT testimony soon?
I'll contribute off and on as I see fit and you're not going to be able to embarrass me. The facts are in, due to the magnificent job VFX has done with his outstanding knowledge of the whole topic.

And you even slipped into 'posting nastiness to yourself again, as you have done in the past when you've become too upset to go to bed.

So if VFX gives the o.k. then this lobster cookout is a done deal. Why was it so important anyway when there are dozens of examples of lies, exaggerations, b.s. just like it? It's no worse than the shadow on the wall that the H.P. side would like to blame on the other side! Get over it; you'll live to fight another day!
VFX only posted a portion of that document. Would you like to see it again?
Did you read what I wrote you ignorant mutt? I said that if VFX wants to belabor it further to have some fun with it, we'll do so. If not then it's a done deal and I'm embarrassed for any goof who thinks it isn't. To me, it's just another lampshade or shadow on the wall. Phhhhhtttt! Can't you just ignore me?

User avatar
Pyrrho
Administrator
Posts: 10618
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2005 12:31 am
Contact:

Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Pyrrho » Tue Oct 02, 2018 4:52 am

Wrong approach. Asked everyone to stop faking quotes. Asked everyone to ease up on the personal attacks. I see that I have to take action that nobody is going to like.
For any forum questions or concerns please e-mail skepticforum@gmail.com or send a PM.

The flash of light you saw in the sky was not a UFO. Swamp gas from a weather balloon was trapped in a thermal pocket and reflected the light from Venus.

User avatar
Balsamo
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1843
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:29 pm

Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Balsamo » Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:00 am

Monty:
Did you read what I wrote you ignorant mutt? I said that if VFX wants to belabor it further to have some fun with it, we'll do so
But, but, but...I thought you said you were a skeptic????
You just wrote, "IF VRX wants...WE will do so"!
VRX being a member of a modern "NSDAP", does that mean that you some kind of Unterscharführer under his order?

You know, philosophically, a skeptic is someone who believes that no knowledge is achievable on certain topic...VRX is not a skeptic! He KNOWS that the Nazis are innocent of every charges brought up by the Evil "Juden", although he admitted somewhere that Hitler was probably not the best "Fuhrer"...

So are you a skeptic, or are you just faking?
If you are one, then why the "WE" in the quote?
Wouldn't be better for everyone if you stopped being a hypocrite?
Just asking.

User avatar
Balsamo
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1843
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:29 pm

Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Balsamo » Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:07 am

[quote="Pyrrho"]Wrong approach. Asked everyone to stop faking quotes. Asked everyone to ease up on the personal attacks. I see that I have to take action that nobody is going to like.[/quote]

Don't be so sure...That would depend on your action, actually... :lol:

User avatar
VFX
Regular Poster
Posts: 872
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:36 am
Custom Title: Giraffe
Location: Arctic

Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by VFX » Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:03 am

[quote="Balsamo"]

Don't be so sure...That would depend on your action, actually... :lol:[/quote]
It is not fake quotes, but often the point of a quote is posted especially when there is a wall of quote text. If this is not done then the thread becomes unreadable. Sometimes we get it wrong. There can be a little bantering and I did laugh at a few posts regarding us. There is genuine discussion and remember even if you have heard all the old arguments before there are always new players who wish to know: your alleged knowledge is not theirs.
Cheers NSDAP sturmabteilung
Ich bereure nichts...Arbeit macht frei
Wir glauben an Nationalismus ohne Kapitalismus und Sozialismus ohne Internationalismus

User avatar
Nessie
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2960
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 5:41 pm

Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Nessie » Tue Oct 02, 2018 9:05 am

[quote="VFX"][quote="Nessie"]The "lobster story" is a denier invention. [highlight=yellow]No witness said people were steamed like lobster[/highlight]. It is fake news to claim there were reports at the time of people steamed like lobsters.

What a few reports and some non witnesses said was that it was thought the gas used was steam. That a gas was used is accurate and not knowing what type of gas is an understandable error by those who were not actually there and saw what was happening in detail.
[/quote]
Does it matter if one is steamed like a lobster or a crab? The reports of people being steamed to death while absurd is very much true and acted upon by the US prosecutors. I do not think they would compare people to lobsters as I am sure lobsters are far more delicious as are the crabs depending on what kind you are steaming of course.
The Nurember charge 6 is steam in "[highlight=pink]steam filled chambers[/highlight]"
[align=center][img]https://image.ibb.co/dnJ7Rz/steam.jpg[/img][/align][/quote]

Steam chamber, as in people locked into a secure room and a gas is introduced to kill them. All the report got wrong was the form of gas.

The idea of steamed like a lobster is a denier invention, a pure fictional piece of propaganda designed to try and discredit only a few of the initial reports that erroneously had steam, rather than CO gas as the means of killing those inside the chambers.
Audiophile, motorbiker and sceptic.

User avatar
Nessie
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2960
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 5:41 pm

Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Nessie » Tue Oct 02, 2018 9:12 am

[quote="montgomery"][quote="Statistical Mechanic"][quote="montgomery"]Not to do the job for VFX but maybe this will save him the trouble?

https://books.google.ca/books?id=U8-PDg ... ng&f=false[/quote]
Fail. Another Hans Rule 3 problem: [quote]3. think before you type.
[/quote]
I asked for where at the IMT Ludwig Fischer "stated ... that Polish Jews were killed in large numbers. These massacres were performed by means of steam ..." As an example, according to VFX, of "lobstering" influencing the tribunal.

You linked to a 1944 UNWCC document stating "Polish charges against German war criminals" including Frank, Fischer and others. This particular charge involved the camp at Treblinka. Nowhere in the document is Fischer quoted testifying, as he could not have as he was not in Allied custody at the time. And the sheet is a list of charges and supporting narrative developed by the Polish government (ring a bell?).

I didn't ask you to find the words Fischer and steam on the same page.

Try again. Citation for when at the IMT, as VFX claims, or when he was in Polish custody for that matter, Fischer testified as VFX says he did.[/quote]

You're too wrapped on what [b]you[/b] want, while others aren't specifically interested in your wants. What I posted will do to show that the steaming lobster idea wasn't invented by a denier or a skeptic.

Trying to say a denier invented the idea is getting pretty desperate s&m but we'll continue for a while because it's getting to be quite a bit of fun. I never imagined that it all could be proven so easily to be just a fake![/quote]

No Polish report or witness said people were "steamed like lobsters".

Instead they said people were herded into chambers and steam was introduced to kill those inside. They knew people were killed with a gas, they thought it was maybe steam.

It is deniers who have introduced the false idea that initial reports and witness used a lobster analogy. That falsehood came from deniers and it was done as a fallacious argument of poisoning the well to try and discredit the reports that mentioned steam.
Audiophile, motorbiker and sceptic.

User avatar
Darren Wilshak
Regular Poster
Posts: 835
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:16 pm

Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Darren Wilshak » Tue Oct 02, 2018 10:37 am

Ok its being economical with the Truth to make up fake quotes. As to the other pursuit they practice, trivializing the Holocaust - well they seemingly find the idea of lobsters being steamed to death highly amusing when comparing that to the fate of the Jews. God knows why that should be so, but that is up to their level of intellect, I suppose.

Monty can't deal with comics that compare him and his side-kick to a pair of dummies and certainly doesn't want to be reminded that he has to hit the books as it were or the books will inevitably hit him. Can't guarantee that I won't post any more pictorial reminders, for that Skeptic accolyte who doth protest that he is not a denier too much methinks.

Apologies to W Shakespeare.

User avatar
Darren Wilshak
Regular Poster
Posts: 835
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:16 pm

Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Darren Wilshak » Tue Oct 02, 2018 10:59 am

Using a search engine I looked at the rodoh forum and I noticed that Lily (Hannover in a dress) in 2016, posted something about lobsters. This stuff apparently emanates too from what is often referred to as the cess pit, (codoh forum.) A post dated 2002 by a codoh denier called 'Steve' mentions lobster steaming.

It is just arguing for the sake of arguing by Monty to try and claim otherwise.

When deniers stoop to this level of behaviour its trivialising the Holocaust.

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 22585
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:34 am

VFX wrote:It is not fake quotes, but often the point of a quote is posted especially when there is a wall of quote text. If this is not done then the thread becomes unreadable. Sometimes we get it wrong. There can be a little bantering and I did laugh at a few posts regarding us. There is genuine discussion and remember even if you have heard all the old arguments before there are always new players who wish to know: your alleged knowledge is not theirs.
Cheers NSDAP sturmabteilung
I understand that why, after you made up a phony testimony given by Fischer, you'd feel defensive about this topic, but falsifying evidence is not against forum rules or decorum AFAIK - Pyrrho had however asked that members not fake quotes from other users. I am sure that what Pyrrho was referring to: viewtopic.php?f=39&t=29735&start=200#p666376. I never wrote the last point, of course.

The irony is not lost on people reading this subforum that deniers, who loudly cry "hoax" at every turn, have been seen time and again here to resort to fabricating quotations and doctoring evidence, posting falsifications, and distorting and lying even about their own requests and comments.

Whenever you post something with a source claim in it, VFX, I will be asking you for the citation.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 22585
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:58 am

Nessie wrote:Steam chamber, as in people locked into a secure room and a gas is introduced to kill them. All the report got wrong was the form of gas.

The idea of steamed like a lobster is a denier invention, a pure fictional piece of propaganda designed to try and discredit only a few of the initial reports that erroneously had steam, rather than CO gas as the means of killing those inside the chambers.
To add on, in a sample of 83 testimonies from eyewitnesses at Treblinka, I found three early witnesses who were in the camp and who reported that steam was used to kill those packed into the gas chambers. Each of these men escaped from the camp before Stangl's changes were put into operation in early September 1942. Two of these men also named gas as the killing agent, in one case the testimony of steam is a bit cryptic, and one of the two who said gas and steam also said that no one was in a position to know for sure.

In the HC paper I linked to about three weeks ago, I explained how logical and easy the mistake was for early camp escapees to have made.

After the early days of the camp, as workers in the upper camp stayed longer and they gained more knowledge, testimonies consistently converged on gas.

Some Oyneg Shabes leaders in Warsaw, in fall 1942 - as reports about the camp were coming in and much was unknown, desperate to get word to the world about the mass murder and thus not having the luxury of time - made the decision to include the detail about steam in a report they prepared and sent to London. (We don't know why they made this decision as their decisionmaking isn't documented - it may have been simply because it was the last testimony they looked at or on account of extra trust in who recorded the particular testimonies.) I believe that every single report mentioning steam thereafter, including the UNWCC charge sheet which montgomery linked to and 3311-PS, was based on the Oyneg Shabes report.

Reviewing the range of testimonies and evidence available to us today (which were not all gathered and available to reporters in 1942-1944), no serious person would conclude that steam was used at Treblinka; that is why every scholar studying the camp (no, Mattogno is not a scholar) has concluded that Jews were killed there in gas chambers. As we've seen (and as deniers always ignore), for example, the IMT in its 1946 judgment concluded that Jews were killed in gas chambers at Treblinka.

All this is well known. As Nessie implies, the highlighting of steam is a bit of denier cherrypicking - an ultra-thin reed of some early witness guesses that are easily understood, an OS report to London in fall 1942, and multiple articles and reports based on that report thereafter - set into a vast sea of witnesses, reports, and other evidence (which deniers pretend don't exist) that attest to gas being used to murder Jews at the camp. (As Nick and Hans will know, the evidence to which I am referring in this post can be cited with precise archival references.)

Finally, to make this discussion even more preposterous, neither VFX nor montgomery has demonstrated even the slightest familiarity with the history - yet in the most insulting and dehumanizing terms imaginable they repeatedly post about lobster steaming, squealing with delight in their ignorance each time they do so, along with recycling one or two well-known, cherrypicked facts and fabricating testimony in other cases.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 22585
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:15 pm

Please:

1] Winer - montgomery's invented testimony and his objections have been dealt with, what else?
2] steam - up to montgomery and VFX if they want the bloodbath to continue
3] Sackowicz - montgomery would prefer not to discuss but Sakowicz fits the spec ("a request for eye witness accounts of holocaust related information that isn't just more modern day fabrications")
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 22585
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:19 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:I think the "like lobsters" comes from CW Porter, btw.)
A colleague sent me this reference:
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v09/v09p-89_OKeefe.html

link to Porter's book (1988): http://www.jrbooksonline.com/PDF_Books/ ... ocaust.pdf (and his not-so-clever lobster business: http://www.jrbooksonline.com/PDF_Books/ ... ocaust.pdf

Let's just say that this one has been around awhile ...
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9191
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:22 pm

That’s where I thought it came from. Been awhile since I looked at Porter.

From what I remember of him he obsesses with Nuremberg though he also took a stab at gas vans.
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

montgomery
BANNED
Posts: 953
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:30 pm

Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by montgomery » Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:38 pm

Nessie wrote:No Polish report or witness said people were "steamed like lobsters".

Instead they said people were herded into chambers and steam was introduced to kill those inside. They knew people were killed with a gas, they thought it was maybe steam.
I think the lobster reference is ours Nessie but that's a novel approach to say that the people only thought it was steam! I'm sorry Nessie, but mostly for you because you're so faithful to the cause and you're being used for it.

I still respect you for your decency here against such ugly odds but I have to tell you that I've become quite convinced that most of what I've heard so far is proving that it's mostly fakery, exaggerations, and lies. And I'm sure not going to buy into this one. I suggest it's time to accept this one as the big lie we all know it was and move on. The Zionist train fell off the tracks with this one.
cheers, montgomery.

montgomery
BANNED
Posts: 953
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:30 pm

Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by montgomery » Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:42 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
1] Winer - montgomery's invented testimony and his objections have been dealt with, what else?
2] steam - up to montgomery and VFX if they want the bloodbath to continue
3] Sackowicz - montgomery would prefer not to discuss but Sakowicz fits the spec ("a request for eye witness accounts of holocaust related information that isn't just more modern day fabrications")
4) We can conclude now that the lobster steaming ovens were nothing more than another instance of begging for sympathy on the holocaust. Much like the lampshades horrors, the nuclear terrorizing of the Jews, The super scary shadow on the wall, and the whole gas chamber scam. It is indeed time to move on to the next installment of the holocaust sideshow.[/quote]

You may have to continue with the crustaceon topic by yourself but first we'll see if VFX permits it to continue.

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 22585
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:48 pm

I don't really care what VFX or you do. You are both clearly out of your depth on all three topics. Carri on - or not!
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

montgomery
BANNED
Posts: 953
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:30 pm

Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by montgomery » Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:51 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:I think the "like lobsters" comes from CW Porter, btw.)
A colleague sent me this reference:
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v09/v09p-89_OKeefe.html

link to Porter's book (1988): http://www.jrbooksonline.com/PDF_Books/ ... ocaust.pdf (and his not-so-clever lobster business: http://www.jrbooksonline.com/PDF_Books/ ... ocaust.pdf

Let's just say that this one has been around awhile ...
Eggscellent sm! This link is going to provide reading enjoyment and entertainment here on this forum for months to come.
http://www.jrbooksonline.com/PDF_Books/ ... ocaust.pdf

And also a list of eye witness names that can be rejected outright as bogus fakers. I didn't think such a scholarly compilation of lies and exaggerations existed. Thanks to your friend!

If you don't care what VFX and I do then you can just exclude yourself from the conversation. None of you are essential to any topic. I think you are suggesting an 'ignore' war? Give it a try (toughy) guy. :D

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 22585
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:54 pm

montgomery wrote:. . . but that's a novel approach to say that the people only thought it was steam!
There's nothing novel about Nessie's point at all. You only think that there is because you're not familiar with the discussion.

E.g., from 2016:
A better interpretation of these data is obvious: during August-October the ghetto activists were trying, without uniform success, to utilize uncertain and contradictory reports about how Jews were being killed. At the same time, they were reaching other urgent conclusions: the trains taking Jews from Warsaw were going to a camp at Treblinka (in itself, this was a significant discovery), the Jews taken to Treblinka were being killed en masse immediately after arriving - with very few survivors, the Germans used a combination of reassuring words and force to process the deported Jews, a deportee’s fate was not dependent on whether he or she went voluntarily or by force, women and men alike were killed but after being separated, the killing took place in the upper part of the camp in so-called “bath-houses,” many of the small number of surviving Jews were involved in work emptying the death chambers, in mass burials of corpses and in cremations whilst others worked in the reception area of the camp processing goods taken from arriving Jews, and so on. . . .

4. But why did the official Oyneg Shabes report opt for the “steam” explanation while some Oyneg Shabes leaders like M.M. Kon (whose informants were “grave-diggers”[115]) and the Bund leadership did not? Given the uncertainty and the difficulties of observation, steam isn’t a far-fetched guess. Recall that Krzepicki’s short testimony explained that even the workers in the upper camp weren’t able to observe enough of the exact process of murder to know how it was carried out. The Germans created an expectation around showers with their reception speeches and labeling of the gas chambers as “bath-houses.” The Germans seemed to have been able to orient the victims toward thinking of “showers” – yet people were being killed and fumes were likely seen: a leap to steam is not a very big one under the circumstances: “What’s going on in there? It’s not water, the people are dying – they must be heating the water and killing them with steam.” This is really not so mysterious – not when we have Peretz Opoczynski, another member of Oyneg Shabes (a transplant from Lodz noted for his reportage), speculating in October about a giant electric chair.[116] Confronted with extreme situations, with unusual violence or shocking surprise, people can be expected to speculate and reach for explanations, even where they are not obvious.
No, sorry, Nessie is not being novel but reasonable.

No Zionist train here, just good history.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 22585
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:55 pm

montgomery wrote:a scholarly compilation
LOL
montgomery wrote:If you don't care what VFX and I do then you can just exclude yourself from the conversation
No such luck for you.
montgomery wrote:None of you are essential to any topic. I think you are suggesting an 'ignore' war? Give it a try (toughy) guy. :D
Solipsism is an ugly thing to have to witness - but I can bear it.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 22585
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:55 pm

montgomery wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:I think the "like lobsters" comes from CW Porter, btw.)
A colleague sent me this reference:
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v09/v09p-89_OKeefe.html

link to Porter's book (1988): http://www.jrbooksonline.com/PDF_Books/ ... ocaust.pdf (and his not-so-clever lobster business: http://www.jrbooksonline.com/PDF_Books/ ... ocaust.pdf

Let's just say that this one has been around awhile ...
Eggscellent sm! This link is going to provide reading enjoyment and entertainment here on this forum for months to come.
http://www.jrbooksonline.com/PDF_Books/ ... ocaust.pdf

And also a list of eye witness names that can be rejected outright as bogus fakers. I didn't think such a scholarly compilation of lies and exaggerations existed. Thanks to your friend!

If you don't care what VFX and I do then you can just exclude yourself from the conversation. None of you are essential to any topic. I think you are suggesting an 'ignore' war? Give it a try (toughy) guy. :D
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 22585
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:57 pm

Taking a page from Rodoh 1.0 - although the idea failed when the revisionists chickened out - a book discussion thread wouldn't be a bad thing sometime. Porter's silly book would be fine if we want to giggle about dated nonsense. At Rodoh it was Butz who provided the mirth.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9191
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Oct 02, 2018 4:04 pm

I’m sorry I just can’t read anymore Holocaust Handbooks.

:mrgreen:

Jim Rizoli made me read “Auschwitz: A Judge Looks at the Evidence.” Because I’m such an accommodating fellow I read it and wished I hadn’t. That and “The Bad War” made me swear them off.

What’s worse is that because I read “The Bad War” as a Kindle book Amazon kept suggesting denier books as advertisements!!!!!

Well, back when they carried denier books...
:lol:
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

montgomery
BANNED
Posts: 953
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:30 pm

Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by montgomery » Tue Oct 02, 2018 4:06 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Taking a page from Rodoh 1.0 - although the idea failed when the revisionists chickened out - a book discussion thread wouldn't be a bad thing sometime. Porter's silly book would be fine if we want to giggle about dated nonsense. At Rodoh it was Butz who provided the mirth.
I would rather not get into giggling about the holocaust because during WW2 many people died and some may have been Jewish people. But I think that I'm already finding a wealth of information on methods that were used to kill people.

The peddle driven brainbashing machine needs to be invertigated thoroughly to find if it contains any truth. And the cutting down of trees to kill the tree and all the people forced UP IT needs more scrutiny. Surely the stumps must still be there to show positive evidence of the claim being true? :roll:

And so sm, you've decided to not punish us by ignoring?

User avatar
Darren Wilshak
Regular Poster
Posts: 835
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:16 pm

Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Darren Wilshak » Tue Oct 02, 2018 4:11 pm

I don't really know why they are here as they insist on resurrecting tired and beaten old arguments. They should be at rodoh or codoh really or spreading their opinions and discoveries on youtube, not bothering amateur historians with a lot of stuff and nonsense because its against Jews or makes the Nazi look bad.

It was my understanding that you could get most of the denier books for free anyway...which sort of says a lot really.

Porter it is then!

montgomery
BANNED
Posts: 953
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:30 pm

Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by montgomery » Tue Oct 02, 2018 4:16 pm

Welcome aboard Darren! And good post! We all expect you to be on your best behavior on this thread. We don't want to have it locked because it turns into spam. So leave the teen stuff somewhere else o.k?

I don't want to have to start a new thread on "brainbashing machines and treecutters". Let's keep this one respectable and on topic.

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 22585
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 02, 2018 4:17 pm

montgomery wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Taking a page from Rodoh 1.0 - although the idea failed when the revisionists chickened out - a book discussion thread wouldn't be a bad thing sometime. Porter's silly book would be fine if we want to giggle about dated nonsense. At Rodoh it was Butz who provided the mirth.
I would rather not get into giggling about the holocaust
You confuse giggling at Butz's clownishness with giggling about what happened. But you confuse so much. Sorry, Butz is just stupid in a funny way.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

montgomery
BANNED
Posts: 953
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:30 pm

Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by montgomery » Tue Oct 02, 2018 4:19 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:I’m sorry I just can’t read anymore Holocaust Handbooks.

:mrgreen:

Jim Rizoli made me read “Auschwitz: A Judge Looks at the Evidence.” Because I’m such an accommodating fellow I read it and wished I hadn’t. That and “The Bad War” made me swear them off.

What’s worse is that because I read “The Bad War” as a Kindle book Amazon kept suggesting denier books as advertisements!!!!!

Well, back when they carried denier books...
:lol:
“Auschwitz: A Judge Looks at the Evidence.”

I'll check it out to see what turned you off so badly.

edit: And thanks again because I can read it for free online!
Last edited by montgomery on Tue Oct 02, 2018 4:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 22585
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 02, 2018 4:21 pm

montgomery wrote:Let's keep this one respectable and on topic.
Asking for a friend, do this mean that VFX will stop posting lies about IMT testimony, you will no longer provide bogus citations and substitute bowlderized testimony for cited sources, you won't tamper with what users say when you quote them, both of you will get the difference between the IMT and NMT straight and not confuse issues by trying to pass of journalists as eyewitnesses, you will provide valid references for claims, and that when someone asks you a direct question you won't dodge it and play games to avoid answering?
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

Locked