The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

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The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by montgomery » Sun Sep 30, 2018 4:48 pm

It's a simple question and it can't just be sluffed off as unreasonable. It's a request for eye witness accounts of holocaust related information that isn't just more modern day fabrications.

I'm also going to ask for our moderator to be proactive on this one thread and delete any spam and personal attacks against members who wish to discuss the topic without being insulted. I'm suggesting this applies to both sides of the debate. Thanks.

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Cadmusteeth » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:01 pm

Well, this is sparse.

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The Quest for Moderation.

Post by scrmbldggs » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:05 pm

Cadmusteeth wrote:Well, this is sparse.
And spam. The member keeps repeating that same "request" in pretty much every active thread here without reading/responding in any way to the already copiously offered information.
Last edited by scrmbldggs on Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Cadmusteeth » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:06 pm

Makes it seems insincere doesn’t it?

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by scrmbldggs » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:07 pm

Cadmusteeth wrote:Makes it seems insincere doesn’t it?
ftfy :mrgreen:
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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by montgomery » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:11 pm

On another thread, Dr. Nick Terry is failing to meet my challenge. I'm bringing the challenge here to this thread that has been created expressly for challenge. I'm expecting that those who take the holocaust seriously, try to meet my challenge.

Let those who witness the demeanor of members who choose to take part in this challenge, be the judges of who remains credible.

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Cadmusteeth » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:27 pm

With the way he goes about it it might as well be.

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by montgomery » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:43 pm

No eye witness of evidence pertaining to the holocaust exists, who hasn't disqualified him/herself by resorting to lies and exaggerations.

That's my final position and it stands unchallenged.

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by scrmbldggs » Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:11 pm

Cadmusteeth wrote:With the way he goes about it it might as well be.
Q.E.D.
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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by nickterry » Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:17 pm

montgomery has apparently worked through at least 53 types of 1940s evidence-gathering to reach his conclusion. Or has he?

Here's one I prepared earlier:

1. Soviet Extraordinary Commission (ChGK)
2. Polish Main Commission
3. Polish Military Mission interrogations
4. Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee (esp. ‘Black Book’)
5. Central Jewish Historical Commission in Poland (CZKH)
6. Central Historical Commission, Munich (CHC)
7. CDJC, Paris
8. Linz Documentation Centre affidavits
9. Jewish Central Information Office/Wiener Library, UK
10. Czechoslovak Jewish ‘documentation action’
11. DEGOB, Budapest
12. Polish Research Institute, Lund, Sweden
13. Jewish Agency, Bucharest testimonies
14. Jewish Agency indictments filed 1945 based on refugee accounts; and Bulletins reprinting testimonies
15. Belgian Ministry of Repatriation interviews
16. Norwegian repatriation commission interviews
17. French Ministry of Justice interviews
18. Dutch Red Cross investigations and testimony-gathering re: camps
19. Yugoslav War Crimes Commission
20. Czechoslovak War Crimes Commission
21. US Army war crimes investigations (‘cases not tried’)
22. British War Crimes Investigation Unit materials
23. United Nations War Crimes Commissions charge sheets (receiving info)
24. Spontaneous testimony-gathering in liberated camps, eg Buchenwald report collection
25. David Boder interviews
26. Koniuchowsky interviews/testimony-gathering re Lithuania
27. Ball-Kaduri testimony-gathering mainly re Germany
28. Unpublished memoirs written in 1940s received by CZKH
29. Unpublished memoirs/testimonies written in 1940s later received by Yad Vashem
30. Published memoirs and testimony collections from 1940s
31. Yizkor book committees’ testimony-gathering efforts
32. Soviet war crimes trials – public (Riga, Minsk, etc)
33. Soviet war crimes trials – secret
34. Polish NTN trials (x 7)
35. Polish trials (district courts)
36. IMT interrogations and affidavits
37. NMT interrogations and affidavits (x 12 cases)
38. US Dachau Tribunal cases
39. British Royal Warrant cases
40. French war crimes trials
41. Dutch war crimes trials
42. Belgian war crimes trials
43. Danish war crimes trials
44. Norwegian war crimes trials
45. Austrian cases and trials (starting in 1940s)
46. East German cases and trials (starting before 1949)
47. West German cases and trials (starting before 1949)
48. West German denazification proceedings (starting before 1949)
49. Yugoslav trials
50. Slovak trials
51. Czech trials (different systems)
52. Hungarian trials
53. Romanian trials

Types #1-31 were gathered independently of trials, especially the historical commissions, war crimes commissions and repatriation commissions; #32-53 in direct preparation for trials.

montgomery doesn't seem to realise that to make a bare assertion like he did, he should demonstrate familiarity with these source collections.

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by montgomery » Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:25 pm

nickterry wrote:montgomery has apparently worked through at least 53 types of 1940s evidence-gathering to reach his conclusion. Or has he?

Here's one I prepared earlier:

1. Soviet Extraordinary Commission (ChGK)
2. Polish Main Commission
3. Polish Military Mission interrogations
4. Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee (esp. ‘Black Book’)
5. Central Jewish Historical Commission in Poland (CZKH)
6. Central Historical Commission, Munich (CHC)
7. CDJC, Paris
8. Linz Documentation Centre affidavits
9. Jewish Central Information Office/Wiener Library, UK
10. Czechoslovak Jewish ‘documentation action’
11. DEGOB, Budapest
12. Polish Research Institute, Lund, Sweden
13. Jewish Agency, Bucharest testimonies
14. Jewish Agency indictments filed 1945 based on refugee accounts; and Bulletins reprinting testimonies
15. Belgian Ministry of Repatriation interviews
16. Norwegian repatriation commission interviews
17. French Ministry of Justice interviews
18. Dutch Red Cross investigations and testimony-gathering re: camps
19. Yugoslav War Crimes Commission
20. Czechoslovak War Crimes Commission
21. US Army war crimes investigations (‘cases not tried’)
22. British War Crimes Investigation Unit materials
23. United Nations War Crimes Commissions charge sheets (receiving info)
24. Spontaneous testimony-gathering in liberated camps, eg Buchenwald report collection
25. David Boder interviews
26. Koniuchowsky interviews/testimony-gathering re Lithuania
27. Ball-Kaduri testimony-gathering mainly re Germany
28. Unpublished memoirs written in 1940s received by CZKH
29. Unpublished memoirs/testimonies written in 1940s later received by Yad Vashem
30. Published memoirs and testimony collections from 1940s
31. Yizkor book committees’ testimony-gathering efforts
32. Soviet war crimes trials – public (Riga, Minsk, etc)
33. Soviet war crimes trials – secret
34. Polish NTN trials (x 7)
35. Polish trials (district courts)
36. IMT interrogations and affidavits
37. NMT interrogations and affidavits (x 12 cases)
38. US Dachau Tribunal cases
39. British Royal Warrant cases
40. French war crimes trials
41. Dutch war crimes trials
42. Belgian war crimes trials
43. Danish war crimes trials
44. Norwegian war crimes trials
45. Austrian cases and trials (starting in 1940s)
46. East German cases and trials (starting before 1949)
47. West German cases and trials (starting before 1949)
48. West German denazification proceedings (starting before 1949)
49. Yugoslav trials
50. Slovak trials
51. Czech trials (different systems)
52. Hungarian trials
53. Romanian trials

Types #1-31 were gathered independently of trials, especially the historical commissions, war crimes commissions and repatriation commissions; #32-53 in direct preparation for trials.

montgomery doesn't seem to realise that to make a bare assertion like he did, he should demonstrate familiarity with these source collections.
No doctor, I didn't work through 53 types of 1940's evidence, I worked through the top two from your previous list and I found them failing to meet my challenge. And now I' afraid that without an apology from you for calling me an a-hole, I won't need to entertain you further.

However, out of human decency I'll at least look at your first offering above, in good faith. And if it fails then I'll be done with you because of your lack of credibility.
Last edited by montgomery on Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by montgomery » Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:30 pm

And now I see that it doesn't contain any clickable links to your evidence so I have no choice but to leave you floundering in your shame over having to resort to the standard personal insults of the others of your obvious ilk.

Repair our last remaining bridge now good doctor or we're finished.

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Pyrrho » Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:36 pm

montgomery wrote:It's a simple question and it can't just be sluffed off as unreasonable. It's a request for eye witness accounts of holocaust related information that isn't just more modern day fabrications.

I'm also going to ask for our moderator to be proactive on this one thread and delete any spam and personal attacks against members who wish to discuss the topic without being insulted. I'm suggesting this applies to both sides of the debate. Thanks.
I will not delete posts. What they are posting is not "spam" as the term is commonly defined.

As for the insults, I will take a look, but it seems you're doing your part in the insult trading so if you want posts to be deleted on that basis, your own would vanish.

Nope. Not happening.

Try using the ignore function, and use the option to completely hide posts by ignored users.

http://www.skepticforum.com/ucp.php?i=u ... &mode=foes

http://www.skepticforum.com/ucp.php?i=u ... &mode=view

The rest of you--he does have a point about the personal attacks. I've locked a few threads here for that reason. If I have to start splitting them then I'll do that too. So far I haven't seen anything extreme enough to warrant "time out" penalties and the like.
For any forum questions or concerns please e-mail skepticforum@gmail.com or send a PM.

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Pyrrho » Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:37 pm

montgomery wrote:And now I see that it doesn't contain any clickable links to your evidence so I have no choice but to leave you floundering in your shame over having to resort to the standard personal insults of the others of your obvious ilk.

Repair our last remaining bridge now good doctor or we're finished.
See what I mean? Should I delete your post?
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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:37 pm

"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by montgomery » Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:39 pm

Here's the link to what the first offering of mr. Terry is/was.

https://www.yadvashem.org/untoldstories ... /ChGK.html

It contains no evidence to meet the challenge.

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by montgomery » Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:45 pm

Pyrrho wrote:
montgomery wrote:And now I see that it doesn't contain any clickable links to your evidence so I have no choice but to leave you floundering in your shame over having to resort to the standard personal insults of the others of your obvious ilk.

Repair our last remaining bridge now good doctor or we're finished.
See what I mean? Should I delete your post?
No, I don't see what you mean but I'm content to just accept your decision. And fwiw, it was a response to the so-called doctor calling me an a-hole.

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:49 pm

Somebody needs to come to terms with himself about just what he's looking for - then communicate it clearly to the rest of us.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by scrmbldggs » Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:56 pm

I see Pyrrho kindly posted some clickable links. That should make the member happy. :-D
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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by nickterry » Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:59 pm

montgomery, can we just clarify which languages you read? Not much point continuing without this extremely basic piece of info.

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by montgomery » Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:10 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Somebody needs to come to terms with himself about just what he's looking for - then communicate it clearly to the rest of us.
Sure! I'm asking doctor Terry to give me a link to an eye witness account of matters pertaining to the holocaust. And when he does that I can use the source's name as a reference to research what he/she had to say in detail. Or in other words, I'll accept what that eye witness has to say if I don't find any evidence to him/her disqualifying him/herself with nonsensical evidence that makes him/her into a liar, and exaggerator, or just another history revisionist buffoon.

It's not complicated in the least and it's already been asked of doctor Terry several times. And I'm not expecting that anyone else should be able to present such detailed evidence. There's no use in trying to dance around in circles pretending that the evidence has already been presented, because it simply hasn't been.

Beware: If you fail to respond in a decent and respectable way then I won't bother with your attempt at any evidence. I'm already pretty sure that doctor Terry is the only one with the quaifications to present real evidence anyway.

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Pyrrho » Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:14 pm

montgomery wrote:
Pyrrho wrote:
montgomery wrote:And now I see that it doesn't contain any clickable links to your evidence so I have no choice but to leave you floundering in your shame over having to resort to the standard personal insults of the others of your obvious ilk.

Repair our last remaining bridge now good doctor or we're finished.
See what I mean? Should I delete your post?
No, I don't see what you mean but I'm content to just accept your decision. And fwiw, it was a response to the so-called doctor calling me an a-hole.
Which I do not see anywhere in this thread.
For any forum questions or concerns please e-mail skepticforum@gmail.com or send a PM.

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by montgomery » Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:14 pm

nickterry wrote:montgomery, can we just clarify which languages you read? Not much point continuing without this extremely basic piece of info.
Your apology for your bad behavior is still pending and required. Until that I won't bother answering in a congenial way to your posts. English is my first language and I see no need for any other.

So hopefully, now that you appear to understand what I'm asking of you, you won't use language barriers as another excuse to not be able to produce.

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:16 pm

Just asking for a friend: what's the name of that game people sometimes play, when they ask a question, get an answer, but then pretend that they weren't answered and change what they're looking for or make up reasons why the answer won't do and they won't discuss it? Come on, somebody must know. It's right on the tip of my tongue.
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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by montgomery » Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:17 pm

Pyrrho wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Pyrrho wrote:
montgomery wrote:And now I see that it doesn't contain any clickable links to your evidence so I have no choice but to leave you floundering in your shame over having to resort to the standard personal insults of the others of your obvious ilk.

Repair our last remaining bridge now good doctor or we're finished.
See what I mean? Should I delete your post?
No, I don't see what you mean but I'm content to just accept your decision. And fwiw, it was a response to the so-called doctor calling me an a-hole.
Which I do not see anywhere in this thread.
I don't care about it so I'm not going to point it out to you. Let's let it go and look to the future now. I'm making no further requests of you and you may consider my previous requests as invalid.

edit: I will say however, that your participation in the forum discussions are welcomed by me personally.

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by scrmbldggs » Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:24 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Just asking for a friend: what's the name of that game people sometimes play, when they ask a question, get an answer, but then pretend that they weren't answered and change what they're looking for or make up reasons why the answer won't do and they won't discuss it? Come on, somebody must know. It's right on the tip of my tongue.
Sorry, can't assist in making that goal because of the blur of moving posts. :-P
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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:28 pm

The question which languages he reads is another one beyond his capabilities.
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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by montgomery » Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:36 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:The question which languages he reads is another one beyond his capabilities.
Just in case you missed my reply to doctor Terry:


No eye witness of evidence pertaining to the holocaust exists, who hasn't disqualified him/herself by resorting to lies and exaggerations.

That's my final position and it stands unchallenged.

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:38 pm

nickterry wrote:montgomery has apparently worked through at least 53 types of 1940s evidence-gathering to reach his conclusion. Or has he?

Here's one I prepared earlier:

1. Soviet Extraordinary Commission (ChGK)
2. Polish Main Commission
3. Polish Military Mission interrogations
4. Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee (esp. ‘Black Book’)
5. Central Jewish Historical Commission in Poland (CZKH)
6. Central Historical Commission, Munich (CHC)
7. CDJC, Paris
8. Linz Documentation Centre affidavits
9. Jewish Central Information Office/Wiener Library, UK
10. Czechoslovak Jewish ‘documentation action’
11. DEGOB, Budapest
12. Polish Research Institute, Lund, Sweden
13. Jewish Agency, Bucharest testimonies
14. Jewish Agency indictments filed 1945 based on refugee accounts; and Bulletins reprinting testimonies
15. Belgian Ministry of Repatriation interviews
16. Norwegian repatriation commission interviews
17. French Ministry of Justice interviews
18. Dutch Red Cross investigations and testimony-gathering re: camps
19. Yugoslav War Crimes Commission
20. Czechoslovak War Crimes Commission
21. US Army war crimes investigations (‘cases not tried’)
22. British War Crimes Investigation Unit materials
23. United Nations War Crimes Commissions charge sheets (receiving info)
24. Spontaneous testimony-gathering in liberated camps, eg Buchenwald report collection
25. David Boder interviews
26. Koniuchowsky interviews/testimony-gathering re Lithuania
27. Ball-Kaduri testimony-gathering mainly re Germany
28. Unpublished memoirs written in 1940s received by CZKH
29. Unpublished memoirs/testimonies written in 1940s later received by Yad Vashem
30. Published memoirs and testimony collections from 1940s
31. Yizkor book committees’ testimony-gathering efforts
32. Soviet war crimes trials – public (Riga, Minsk, etc)
33. Soviet war crimes trials – secret
34. Polish NTN trials (x 7)
35. Polish trials (district courts)
36. IMT interrogations and affidavits
37. NMT interrogations and affidavits (x 12 cases)
38. US Dachau Tribunal cases
39. British Royal Warrant cases
40. French war crimes trials
41. Dutch war crimes trials
42. Belgian war crimes trials
43. Danish war crimes trials
44. Norwegian war crimes trials
45. Austrian cases and trials (starting in 1940s)
46. East German cases and trials (starting before 1949)
47. West German cases and trials (starting before 1949)
48. West German denazification proceedings (starting before 1949)
49. Yugoslav trials
50. Slovak trials
51. Czech trials (different systems)
52. Hungarian trials
53. Romanian trials

Types #1-31 were gathered independently of trials, especially the historical commissions, war crimes commissions and repatriation commissions; #32-53 in direct preparation for trials.

montgomery doesn't seem to realise that to make a bare assertion like he did, he should demonstrate familiarity with these source collections.
This is good to have, thanks Nick.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by montgomery » Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:50 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
nickterry wrote:montgomery has apparently worked through at least 53 types of 1940s evidence-gathering to reach his conclusion. Or has he?

Here's one I prepared earlier:

1. Soviet Extraordinary Commission (ChGK)
2. Polish Main Commission
3. Polish Military Mission interrogations
4. Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee (esp. ‘Black Book’)
5. Central Jewish Historical Commission in Poland (CZKH)
6. Central Historical Commission, Munich (CHC)
7. CDJC, Paris
8. Linz Documentation Centre affidavits
9. Jewish Central Information Office/Wiener Library, UK
10. Czechoslovak Jewish ‘documentation action’
11. DEGOB, Budapest
12. Polish Research Institute, Lund, Sweden
13. Jewish Agency, Bucharest testimonies
14. Jewish Agency indictments filed 1945 based on refugee accounts; and Bulletins reprinting testimonies
15. Belgian Ministry of Repatriation interviews
16. Norwegian repatriation commission interviews
17. French Ministry of Justice interviews
18. Dutch Red Cross investigations and testimony-gathering re: camps
19. Yugoslav War Crimes Commission
20. Czechoslovak War Crimes Commission
21. US Army war crimes investigations (‘cases not tried’)
22. British War Crimes Investigation Unit materials
23. United Nations War Crimes Commissions charge sheets (receiving info)
24. Spontaneous testimony-gathering in liberated camps, eg Buchenwald report collection
25. David Boder interviews
26. Koniuchowsky interviews/testimony-gathering re Lithuania
27. Ball-Kaduri testimony-gathering mainly re Germany
28. Unpublished memoirs written in 1940s received by CZKH
29. Unpublished memoirs/testimonies written in 1940s later received by Yad Vashem
30. Published memoirs and testimony collections from 1940s
31. Yizkor book committees’ testimony-gathering efforts
32. Soviet war crimes trials – public (Riga, Minsk, etc)
33. Soviet war crimes trials – secret
34. Polish NTN trials (x 7)
35. Polish trials (district courts)
36. IMT interrogations and affidavits
37. NMT interrogations and affidavits (x 12 cases)
38. US Dachau Tribunal cases
39. British Royal Warrant cases
40. French war crimes trials
41. Dutch war crimes trials
42. Belgian war crimes trials
43. Danish war crimes trials
44. Norwegian war crimes trials
45. Austrian cases and trials (starting in 1940s)
46. East German cases and trials (starting before 1949)
47. West German cases and trials (starting before 1949)
48. West German denazification proceedings (starting before 1949)
49. Yugoslav trials
50. Slovak trials
51. Czech trials (different systems)
52. Hungarian trials
53. Romanian trials

Types #1-31 were gathered independently of trials, especially the historical commissions, war crimes commissions and repatriation commissions; #32-53 in direct preparation for trials.

montgomery doesn't seem to realise that to make a bare assertion like he did, he should demonstrate familiarity with these source collections.
This is good to have, thanks Nick.
Tell doctor Nick for me that he continues to fail to produce. And tell him that he can't pretend any longer. He needs to produce one reference he will stand behind. That is because I am determined to take his one reference and investigate the character thoroughly, then report back to the good doctor that his witness is a proven fraud.

Don't attempt to meet the challenge yourself because you don't have the credibility anymore to even be a part of the conversation. We're down to doctor Terry now, even though he's partially ruined his reputation as a doctor and a historian by resorting to calling me an a-hole.

One doctor Terry and we'll then make it or break it based on that alone.

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by nickterry » Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:55 pm

To add wartime, pre-liberation provenances that recorded/preserved eyewitness accounts in the form of statements or interrogations/interviews - i.e. not including news reporting or intelligence reporting.

1. Oneg Shabes
2. accounts collected by Adolf Berman in Warsaw, 1943-44, now in Ghetto Fighters' House archive
3. Delegatura/Polish underground records
4. accounts received by Polish government-in-exile in London not via Polish underground (eg fugitives via Sweden)
5. Soviet partisan movement reports and accounts/interrogations of fugitives
6. Soviet NKVD/NKGB/Smersh interrogations
7. Letters by fugitives written to Ilya Ehrenburg
8. British interrogations of captured SS men
9. CSDIC bugged conversations of captured German generals and officers/men
10. French military intelligence-received accounts from escapees from Auschwitz sub-camps
11. Slovakian 'Working Group' underground group, including Vrba-Wetzler report
12. Accounts of fugitives received by Adolf Silberschein (WJC-Geneva, Relico)
13. Accounts of fugitives received by Gerhart Riegner and Richard Lichtheim in Geneva
14. Swiss military intelligence interrogs of German deserters
15. accounts of 'Palestine exchange' internees from November 1942 received by Jewish Agency for Palestine
16. accounts of fugitives reaching Jewish Agency for Palestine, 1943-44, many in its Rescue Committee Bulletin
17. diaries, letters and manuscripts surviving war, not in categories above

#1 is fully digitised here, https://cbj.jhi.pl/, split between scans of the original documents and 30 published volumes, several of which consist of nothing but eyewitness accounts of events across western and eastern Poland up to 1942. The published volumes translate Yiddish/Hebrew texts to Polish, the unpublished sources are in a mix of Polish, Yiddish and Hebrew, unsurprisingly.

There were many hundreds of entirely contemporary eyewitness accounts in #1-#16 preserved prior to liberation/smuggled out/buried/recorded by people who escaped Nazi/Axis territory, even before one adds the hundreds of diaries, letters and contemporary manuscripts that were handed in only after liberation.

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:59 pm

>> even though he's partially ruined his reputation as a doctor and a historian by resorting to calling me an a-hole.

But that's just what you are, dude. Learn to live with it. You seem to embrace, and that's a good thing.
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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Nessie » Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:05 pm

montgomery wrote:No eye witness of evidence pertaining to the holocaust exists, who hasn't disqualified him/herself by resorting to lies and exaggerations.

That's my final position and it stands unchallenged.
Please list the witnesses you have read testimony for and link to that testimony. Then we can see;

1 - where you find fault
2 - how many you have actually read.
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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by nickterry » Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:11 pm

Sorry, not playing the 'just one witness', 'best witness' or any other hoop-jumping game.

The *totality* of the evidence is what must be assessed by a self-styled skeptic, since there are tens of thousands of eyewitness accounts relevant to the Holocaust dating from the 1940s. These break down by camps, sites, towns, regions and countries.

For Auschwitz alone, towards or over 10,000 statements date from the 1940s - over a thousand Dutch, over 1500 Belgian, hundreds of French, up to 4,000 from deportees from Greater Hungary (DEGOB + Jewish Agency Bucharest), many thousands of Polish statements, hundreds in German and hundreds taken down in English by the British or Americans. Plus Czech/Slovak, Croatian, Greek, Italian, Norwegian and other affidavits, statements, interrogations and memoirs written down in the 1940s.

Clearly, any overly rigid claim based on just a fraction of these statements will fall victim to the fallacy of hasty generalisation, which is also why the one-source-at-a-time approach is meaningless.

Reasonably large chunks of the available 1940s statements are linked here on this page, which I've linked to before:
https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... s-and.html
Not everything is digitised, but some of the bigger collections are, e.g. the DEGOB testimonies, with hundreds translated to English and the rest available in machine-translatable form if wished. This is just one collection, of course.

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:18 pm

Plus when he's given examples of interesting individual witness testimonies for discussion, he runs away from that, too.
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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Nessie » Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:21 pm

A list of people, compiled by Das Prussian, who gave testimony that they saw a gassing;

https://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php? ... 96#p119290

A1) Auschwitz Nazis :

1) Rudolf Hoess Nuremberg - witness
Krakow - 1947
2) Maximillian Grabner Krakow - 1947
(Gestapo chief) interrogation Vienna 1.9.45
GARF f7201
3) Erich Mussfeldt Krakow - 1947
In charge of crem 2&3 (May - aug 44)
3) Josef Kramer 'The Beast of Belsen' Belsen - 1945
Birkenau camp commander
4) Fritz Klein Belsen - 1945
SS Doctor
5) Franz Hoessler Belsen - 1945
Main camp commander - 1944
6) Stefan Baretzki Frankfurt - 1965
Block chief
7) Perry Broad Affidavit 14.12.45 Minden
Gestapo report 13.07.45
Frankfurt - 1965
Hamburg - 1946 (witness tesch trial)
8) Emil Hantl Frankfurt - 1965
Medical orderly
9) Franz Hofmann Frankfurt - 1965
SS camp leader
10) Oswald Kaduk Soviet Military Tribunal - 1947
SS report leader Frankfurt - 1965
11) Josef Klehr Frankfurt - 1965
Medical orderly
12) Hans Stark Frankfurt - 1965
Gestapo
13) Hans Aumeier Interrogation by British
Head of detention camp 1942 Krakow - 1947
14) Johann Paul Kremer Krakow - 1947
Doctor Munster - 1960
Frankfurt - 1965 witness
15) Oskar Groening
SS guard/bookkeeper
16) Richard Bock Frankfurt - 1965 witness
SS driver interrogation 2.11.60
17) Anton Wilhelmy Frankfurt - 1965 witness
SS garrison doctor
18) Martin Wilks Frankfurt - 1965 witness
SS garrison doctor/bookkeeper?
19) Karl Hoblinger Frankfurt - 1965 witness
SS motor pool
20) Karl Broch Frankfurt - 1965 witness
SS political dept
21) Henry Storch Frankfurt - 1965 witness
SS pharmacy
22) Kurt Jurasek Frankfurt - 1965 witness
SS garrison doctor
23) Konrad Morgen Frankfurt - 1965 witness
SS investigator Nuremberg
24) Gerhard Wiebeck Frankfurt - 1965 witness
SS investigator
25) Anton Siebald Frankfurt - 1965 witness
SS motor pool
26) Franz Tomaszewski Frankfurt - 1965 witness
SS motor pool
27) Willy Wildermuth Frankfurt - 1965 witness
SS motor pool
28) Gerhard Hess Frankfurt - 1965 witness
SS farming
29) Victor Capesius Frankfurt - 1965
Doctor
30) Friedrich Entress Landsberg
Doctor affidavit 14.4.47
NO-2362
31) Josef Erber (Houstek)
Political dept
32) Horst Fischer manuscript and interog sep 65
Doctor Leipzig (E Germany) - 1966
33) Adam Hradil interogation 13.8.63
SS motor pool
34) Otto Moll Dachau Trial 1945
interrogation joint with hoess 16.4.46

A2) Auschwitz Jewish Sonderkommando

1) Filip Muller Frankfurt - 1965
arrived apr 1942 Krakow - 1947
(death march ?)
2) Shlomo Dragon - brother of abraham Polish Commission - 1945
arrived dec 42 Soviet interrogation - 1945
(escaped from death march with Vienna - 1972
henryk tauber)
3) Henryk Tauber Polish Commission - 1945
arrived jan 43 soviet interrogation feb 45
(escaped from death march with
schlomo dragon)
4) Alain Feinsilder ( Stanislow Jankowski) Polish Commission - 1945
arrived mar 42 Declaration 29.9.80 Paris
( death march ?) Jewish historical commission 1945
5) David Olere
arrived mar 43
(death march to mauthausen ? - ebensee)
6) Daniel Bennahmias
arrived apr 44
(death march as per book preview)
7) Henryk Mandelbaum
arrived apr 44
(escaped from death march )
8) Dario Gabbai - brother of Ya'akov - cousin of Morris Venezia
arrived apr 44
(death march to mauthausen? - melk - ebensee)
9) Morris Venezia - cousin of Dario Gabbai
arrived apr 44
(death march to mauthausen ?)
10) Shlomo Venezia
arrived apr 44
(death march to mauthausen ?)
10) Milton Buki 4/1/46 deposition Linz
arrived dec 42 7/1/46 deposition Vienna ( re Grabner)
(death march ?) Frankfurt - 1965
11) Dov Pasikovic Frankfurt - 1965
arrived may 44
(death march?)
12) Ya'akov Silberberg interrogation 2.6.71
arrived dec 42 ?
(escaped from death march)
13) Joshua (Szyja) Rosenblum
arrived feb 44
14) Leon Cohen
arrived nov 43 ?
(death march to mauthausen)
15) Otto Pressburger
arrived mar 42
(death march ?)
16) Maurice Benroubi
arrived July 42
(tfrd to jawischowitz mine sep 42)
17) Shaul Chazan
arrived apr 44
(death march to mauthausen-melk)
18) Abraham Dragon - brother of shlomo
arrived dec 42
(death march to mauthausen)
19) Eliezer Eisenschnidt
arrived dec 42
(escaped from death march)
20) Ya'akov Gabai - brother of Dario
arrived apr 44
(death march to mauthausen-gusen)
21) Samuel Hejblum
arrived aug 42
22) Morris Kesselman
arrived mar 43
(death march to mauthausen)
23) Gabriel Malinski

24) David Nencel
arrived dec 42
(death march to mauthausen - ebensee)
25) Lemko Pliszko
arrived jan 43
26) Josef Sackar
arrived apr 44
(death march to mauthausen - melk- ebensee)

A3) Auschwitz other inmates


1) Jozef Paczynski - Pole

2) Michael Kula - Pole Protocol testimony 11.6.45
3) Alexander Princz - Jew Frankfurt - 1965
4) Hermann Langbein - Austrian Frankfurt - 1965
Vienna - 197
5) Karl Lill - Czech Frankfurt - 1965
6) Zdzislaw Mikolajski - Pole Frankfurt - 1965
7) Walter Petzold -German ? report 17.05.45
Frankfurt - 1965
8) Henryk Porebski - Pole deposition 28.08.47 - krakow
Frankfurt - 1965
9) Fritz Adolf Putzker - German ? Frankfurt - 1965
10) Edward Pys interrogation 23.10.59
Frankfurt - 1965
11) Jan Sikorski - Pole Frankfurt - 1965
12) Herbert Tischler Frankfurt - 1965
13) Karl Bracht Frankfurt - 1965
14) Franciszek Gulba - Pole Frankfurt - 1965
15) Ignacy Golik - Pole Frankfurt - 1965
16) Ananij Silovich Pet'ko
russian escapee nov 43
17) Vladimir Jakovlevich Pegov
russian escapee nov 43
18) Ludwik Banach deposition 18.7.47 - poland
garrison trial
19) Moshe Garbarz - Jew
(tfrd to jawischowitz mine sep 42)
20) Bogdan Glinski deposition 17.9.47 - poland
garrison trial
21) Kazimierz Halgas
22) Bartosz Oziemkowski Frankfurt - 1965
23) Roger Pelisson
24) Adolf Rogner - German account march 46
garrison trial
25) Maurice Schellekes - Jew deposition 1981 haifa
26) Edgar Steinmetz affidavit ?
27) Wladyslaw Tondos - Pole
28) Josef Vacek - Czech interrogation 8.5.45 Buchenwald
29) Jozef Weber - Pole
30) William Wolfahrt - Pole Krakow - 1947
31) Jan Wolny - Pole
32) Adam Zacharski
33) Czeslaw Sulkowski - Pole
( same person as Stanislaw Slizowski ?)
34) Wojciech Barcz Frankfurt - 1965
35) Franciszek Brol Frankfurt - 1965
36) Stanislaw Slizowski - Pole Frankfurt - 1965
( same person as Czeslaw Sulkowski ?)
37) Zenon Rozansky - Pole
(Officer)
38) Ota Fabian - Jew Frankfurt - 1965
39) Rudolf Gibian - Jew Frankfurt - 1965
40) Stanislaw Glowa - Pole Frankfurt - 1965
41) Czeslaw Glowacki - Pole Frankfurt - 1965
42) Alexander Germanski - Pole
43) Tadeusz Kurant - Pole
44) Karol Sienek - Pole
45) Wieslaw Kielar - Pole
46) Rudolf Vrba ( Walter Rosenberg) Frankfurt - 1965
slovak jew - escaped apr 44 statement for eichmann trial
zundel - 1985

A4) Auschwitz Jewish Doctors

1) Andre Lettich
French Jew
25.7.42 - dec 42? He only seen bunkers.
2) (Charles) ? Sigismund Paul Bendel Belsen - 1945
Romanian Jew (based in France?) Tesch Trial -1946
07.12.43 Farben Trial - 1948
3) Miklos Nyiszli deposition 28.7.45 hungary
Hungarian jew - may 44-jan45 affidavit 8.10.47 Nuremberg

B1) Chelmno Nazis

1) Walter Piller Lodz - 1945
Camp deputy commandant May 45 report while prisoner
Central Moscow Archives + YVA 053/12
ZSl Coll vol 411 part 7 fol 16ff
2) Hermann Gielow Lodz - 1945
Gas van driver/operator
3) Bruno Israel (born Bruno Koenig) Lodz - 1945
Order Policeman ZSL AZ 203 AR-Z 69/59
special vol A fol 423
4) Gustaw Laabs Bonn - 1962-65
Gas van driver/operator deposition 29.11.60
ZSL AZ 203 AR-Z 69/59
vol 4 fols 525ff - 527
5) Walter Burmeister Bonn - 1962-65
Gas van driver/operator + Lange's driver ZSL AZ 203 AR-Z 69/59
+ Bothmann's adjutant vol 6 fols 967f
vol 7a fols 1157,1162
6) Alois Hafele Bonn - 1962-65
Hauskommando leader ZSL AZ 203 AR-Z 69/59
vol 4 fol 601
7) Kurt Mobius Bonn - 1962-65
Camp guard ZSL AZ 203 AR-Z 69/59
vol 5 fol 877
8) Karl Heinl Bonn - 1962-65
Camp guard
9) Ernst Burmeister Bonn - 1962-65
Head of police guard
10) Heinrich Bock Bonn - 1962-65
Camp guard ZSL AZ 203 AR-Z 69/59
vol 6 fol 1000f
11) Anton Mehring Bonn - 1962-65
SS personnel
12) Alexsander Steinke Bonn - 1962-65
SS personnel
13) Friedrich Maderholz Bonn - 1962-65
Camp guard
14) Wilhelm Heukelbach Bonn - 1962-65
Camp guard
15) Wilhelm Schulte Bonn - 1962-65
SS personnel
16) Gustaw Fiedler Cologne - 1965
Camp guard
17) Henryk Mania Poznan - 2001
Polish Volksdeutscher
18) Theodor Malzmuller statement 27.06.60
Camp guard AR-Z 69/59 vol3 p412
19) Friedrich Hensen statement 13.07.45
Camp guard
captured by british in hagen 15.04.45
20) Fritz Ismer Bonn - 1962-65
Camp guard interrogation 01.08.61
no charges made against him criminal case 141 js 204/60
21) Frank Sch ???? Bonn - 1962-65 ?
Forest Camp guard
22) Franz Schalling
Security guard - non ss
23) Jakob W Bonn - 1962-65
Police officer from Litzmannstadt battalion ZSL AZ 203 AR-Z 69/59
vol 5 fol 856
24) Johann H Vienna Court Interrogation
Austrian 'members of camp' AZ:27b Vr 4726/62
25) Josef P as above
26) Josef I Bonn - 1962-65
Policeman ZSL AZ 203 AR-Z 69/59
vol 7a fol 1224f

B2) Chelmno 'non-camp' Nazi staff

1) Karl El ???? Greifswald - 1951
Police Schupo Lodz Gustrow - 1952
2) Adolf Eichmann Eichmann Trial - 1961
Interrogation
3) Rudolf Hoess -
Auschwitz camp commander
4) Heinrich May - Yad Vashem M-21/477
Forest Superintendent for Kolo district report for americans 1945
5) Walter Dejaco - report 17.09.42 - NO-4467
Untersturmfuhrer - Auschwitz architect Vienna 1972 (re auschwitz)
6) Arthur Greiser - Posnan - 1946
Gauleiter of Warthgau

B3) Chelmno - Jewish inmates

1) Mordechai (Michel ?) Podchlebnik Lodz - 1945 - 9.6.45
escaped jan 42 - 1st period Eichman Trial - 1961
2) Mordechai Zurawski Lodz - 1945 ?
2nd period Poznan - 1946 (Greisers Trial)
saved by russians Eichman Trial - 1961
3) Simon Srebnik Lodz - 1945 - 29.6.45
2nd period Eichman Trial - 1961
shot by germans, saved by russians Bonn - 1962-65
4) Szlamek Bajler ( Yakov Grojanowski)
escaped 19.01.42 - 1st period
didn't survive war

B4) Chelmno - Gas van mechanics

1) Jozef Piaskowski Polish Commission 1945
Polish mechanic employed in the Testimony 10.06.45
Reichsstrassenbauamt in Kolo AIPN GK 165/271
2) Bronislaw Mankowski Polish Commission 1945
Polish mechanic employed in the Testimony 11.06.45
Reichsstrassenbauamt in Kolo AIPN GK 165/271
3) Bronislaw Falborski Polish Commission 1945
Polish mechanic employed in the Kraft
company in Kolo
4) Jerzy Fojcik Polish Commission 1945
Polish mechanic in Kolo Testimony 06.07.45
BA B162/21962 p 357ff
5) Zenon Rossa Polish Commission 1945
Polish mechanic in Kolo Testimony 13.06.45
AIPN GK 165/271
6) Michael Lewandowski Polish Commission 1945
Polish mechanic in Kolo Testimony 04.07.45
AIPN GK 165/271
7) Miroslaw Junkiert Polish Commission 1945
Polish mechanic in Kolo Testimony 13.07.45
AIPN GK 165/271

C1) Sobibor Nazis

1) Franz Stangl 1970 - Dussledorf
Camp commander Sobibor and Treblinka
2) Karl Frenzel 1966 - Hagen
1985 - Hagen retrial
3) Kurt Bolender 1966 - Hagen
1963 - Munich ?
4) Franz Wolf 1966 - Hagen
5) Alfred Ittner 1966 - Hagen
(accountant pre sobibor)
6) Werner Dubois 1966 - Hagen
1963 - Munich
7) Erich Fuchs 1966 - Hagen
1963 - Munich
1961 - Dortmund ?
YVA TR 10/1069
8) Erich Lachmann 1966 - Hagen

9) Hans-Heinz Schutt 1966 - Hagen

10) Heinrich Unverhau 1948 - Euthenasia
1966 - Hagen
1963 - Munich
11) Robert Juhrs 1966 - Hagen
1963 - Munich
12) Ernst Zierke 1966 - Hagen
1963 - Munich
13) Erwin Lambert 1966 - Hagen
14) Hubert Gomerski 1947 - Euthenasia Trial
1950 - Frankfu
15) Erich Bauer 1950 - Frankfurt
"The Gasmaster" 1961 - Dortmund ?
16) Johan Klier 1950 - Frankfurt
17) Karl Streibel 1976 - Hamburg
Commander of Trawinki camp - visitor to Sobibor dec 42
18) Franz Hodl 1950 - Frankfurt
witness ?
29.03.66 StA Dortmund - verfahren gegen gomerski ??
19) Heinrich Barbl 1965 - Linz
20) Becher Warner 1966 - Hagen ?
Driver witness?
21) Gustav Wagner escaped to brazil
deputy commander of camp
the beast' or 'the wolf'

D1) Treblinka Nazis :


1) Franz Stangl 1970 - Dussledorf
Camp commander Sobibor and Treblinka
2) Kurt Franz 1964 - Dussledorf
deputy camp commander. 'the doll'
3) Willi Mentz 1964 - Dussledorf
'the gunman of Treblinka' - 'frankenstein'
4) Heinrich Mattes 1964 - Dussledorf
'doctor'
5) Otto von Horn 1964 - Dussledorf
1990's - IvanTerrible
(witness)
6) Erwin Lambert 1964 - Dussledorf
'the flying architect'
7) Franz Suchomel 1964 - Dussledorf
8) August Miete 1964 - Dussledorf
'Angel of death'
9) Gustav Munzberger 1964 - Dussledorf
10) Otto Stadie 1964 - Dussledorf
11) Rudolf Hoess
Auschwitz camp commander
12) Dr Irmfried Erbel arrested jan 48
First commander of camp - replaced for incompetence
13) Erich Fuchs
based at sobibor

D2) Treblinka Ukranian camp staff :

1) Feodor Federenko 1.pre-trial testimony
25.05.76 hartford usa
2.denaturalisation
USA june 78
3. Russian Trial - 1950?
2) Nikolay Shalayev ( guard and motorist) 1. protokol doprosa -
18.12.50 (federenko trial?)
2. Jack Reimer trial -
usa 2004 - GX-126
3) Ivan Semyonovich Shevchenko 1. protokol doprosa -
08.09.44.
2. GARF 7445-2-34 p19
4) Pavel Leleko protokol doprosa -
20.02.45.
5) Nikolai Malagon 1. interrogation -
18.03.78 russia
(for demjanuk trial ?)
6) Prokofij Ryabtsev 1.protokol doprosa -
03.02.65.
2. Jack Reimer trial -
usa 2004 - GX-121
7) Georgij Aleksandr Skidan 1. 26.05.50
2. Jack Reimer trial -
usa 2004 - GX-141

D3) Treblinka - Jewish inmates :

1) Jankiel Wiernik - 8/42-8/43 revolt Polish Commission 1946
Eichmann Trial - 1961
2) Chil Rajchman - 9/42-8/43 revolt Polish Commission 1946
(Yechiel Reichman) Demjanuk Trial - USA 1981
Demjanuk Trial - Israel 1988
YVT - 03/3816
3) Jerzy Rajgrotski -9/42-8/43 revolt jewish historical institute
1958 no25 106-108
4) Sonia Lewkowicz - 12/42-8/43 revolt Federenko Trial - USA 1978
Demjanuk Trial - USA 1981
YVT - 03/4181
5) Abraham Goldfarb - 8/42 - 8/43 revolt Protokol doprosa - 21.09.44
GARF 7445-2-134 P31
YVT - 03/1846
6) Chaim Sztajer -9/42 - 8/43 revolt Demjanuk Trial - Israel 1988

7) Pinchas Epstein - 9/42-8/43 revolt Demjanuk Trial - Israel 1988
Eichmann Trial - 1961
8) Samuel Rajzman - 9/42-8/43 Polish Commission 1946
note - mainly hearsay nuremberg - 1946
Yad Vashem Testimony
Federenko Trial - USA 1978
1964 Dussledorf
report 1944
YVT 03/547
9) Eliyahu Rosenberg - 9/42-8/43 revolt Statement Vienna 1947
Demjanuk Trial - USA 1981
Eichmann Trial - 1961
YVA 03/4039
10) Abraham Bomba - 9/42 - 12/42 escaped

11) Abraham Kaszepicki - 8/42-9/42 for 18 days escaped report dec 42

12) Mendel Korytnicki - ?? Protokol doprosa - 23.09.44
GARF 7445-2-134 P56r
13) David Milgroim - 1942 escaped after a week report made in slovakia 8/43
note - unsure if hearsay OSS? In istanbul recd 1944

14) Leon Finklestein - 7/42 - 8/43 revolt Polish Commission 1946



E1) Belzec Nazis :

1) Josef Oberhauser 1963 - Munich statement
Adjutant to Wirth - Dec 41 14.12.62 208 AR-Z 252/59 vol 9 p1681ff
1948 - Magdeburg -
(euthanasia)
15.11.71- Hoffmann Trial
8 ks 1/70 vol 3 p881
2) Erich Fuchs 1966 - Hagen
Truckdriver ? 1963 - Munich
Dortmund AZ 45 Js 27/61
3) Heinrich Gley 1963 - Munich
Guard AZ Js 64-83/61
4) Werner (Karl ?) Dubois 1966 - Hagen
Truckdriver 1963 - Munich
1971 - Hoffman ?
Statement 16.09.61
5) Karl (Alfred?)Schluch 1963 - Munich
Guard 11.11.61 BAL 162/208
AZ Js 64-83/61
AR-Z 252/59 Bd 8 p1514
6) Heinrich Unverhau 1948 - Euthenasia
1966 - Hagen
1963 - Munich
7) Robert Juhrs 1966 - Hagen
Guard 1963 - Munich
8) Ernst Zierke 1966 - Hagen
Guard 1963 - Munich
9) Kurt Franz 1964 - Dussledorf
Cook
10) Fritz Tauscher 1963 - Munich
18.12.63 deposition
BAL B162/208 AR-Z 252/59
11) Franz Stangl 1970 - Dussledorf


Other :

12) Wilhelm Pfannenstiel - visited aug 42 1950 - Darmstadt
Professor of Hygiene 1959 - Marburg
1965 - Munich (prosecution witness)
13) Kurt Gerstein - visited aug 42 report nuremberg PS-1553
Disinfection officer
14) Paul Rassiniers 'mystery visitor'

E2) Belzec Ukranian camp staff :

1) Alexandr Illarionovich Semigodov deposition 24.05.73 Penza
BAL B162/208
AR-Z 643/71 Bd IV f 704-11
2) Filipp Babenko protokol doprosa 12.11.48
ASBU Kiev
6397-58240 pp 12-19
3) Peter Petrowitsch Browzew
(he escaped 3.2.43 and joined partisans)

E3) Belzec Jewish inmates :

1) Rudolf Reder - 8/42 - 11/42 escaped 1963 - Munich
29.12.45 BAL 162/208
AR-Z 252/59 P1177-76
2) Chaim Hirszman - 11/42? - 7/43 escaped 19.03.46 in front of
note murdered after testimony in lublin historical commission of Lublin

F1) Gas Vans Nazis

1) Dr August Becker statement 26.03.60
Gas van inspector AR-Z 220/59 vol 1 p194
2) Josef Wendl Austria 1970
Gas van driver Bd. 1X, ON 117 p16
Interrogation 12.02.69
YVA TR 10/118 vol 1 p40ff
3) Emanual Schafer Cologne. JuNSV Bd X1
Sipo - SD commander Belgrade Nr. 362
Hannover - 1961 (pradels trial)
RSHA 11 D 3
501-PS
4) Ernst Biberstein Einsatz trial nbg - 1947
Commander of commando 6 of EZG C NO-4314

5) Georg Weiss Testimony 1962 ?
Driver for Rolf Maurer
6) Paul Blobel Einsatz trial nbg - 1947
Commander of EZG C NO-3824 6.6.47
7) Curt Emmrich ( pen name Peter Bamm)

8) Karl Gebl Deposition Hanover - 1960
Gas van driver - Minsk AZ:2Js 299/60 vol 10 fols 48ff
interog 23.10.62
BA B162/5068 p 624
9) Erich Gnewuch Deposition Munich - 1961
Gas van driver - Minsk AZ:2Js 104/61 vol 10 fols 48ff
ZSL:AZ:2 AR-Z 94/59 vol 5 fol 1013
10) Johann Hassler Hanover - 1960
Gas van driver - Orel AZ:2 Js 299/60 vol 9 fol 177ff
Interrogation 12.09.62 +26.09.66
BA B162/5068 p 639f
BA B162/18154 p 56f

note these gassings also confirmed by Ott (head of einsatz 7b) and Muller( convoy leader) - same trial
11) Adolf Rube Koblenz - 1959
Gas van driver from div 1vb minsk kds. AZ:9Js 716/59
ZSL:AZ:2 AR-Z 284/59 vol 5 fol 854
12) Heinz Schlechte Hanover - 1960
Gas van driver - EZG 8 moghilev AZ:2 Js 299/60 vol 12 fol 26ff
13) ? Dittrich Hanover - 1960
Member of Baranovichi SD office AZ:2 Js 299/60 vol 8 fol 66ff
14) Ramasan Tchugunov Interrogation Essen 1964
Russian Leader of 2nd Police battalion StA Essen AZ:29 Ks 1/64
ZSL AZ 202 AR-Z 96/60 vol 18 fol 5780
15) Anton Lauer Darmstadt - 1967
EZG C Ukraine AZ Ks 1/67
ZSL AZ 204 AR-Z 269/60 vol 11 fol 2390ff
16) Julius Bauer Darmstadt - 1967
Blobel's driver AZ Ks 1/67
ZSL AZ 204 AR-Z 269/60 vol 11 fol 3562ff
17) Willi Friedrich Darmstadt - 1967
Leader 3rd police battalion - kharkov AZ Ks 1/67
ZSL AZ 204 AR-Z 269/60 vol 11 fol 777ff
18) Hans Rietz Kharkov public trial 1943
Deputy commander of Kharkov Gestapo (soviet trial)
archive of foreign office
of fed rep germany - k206638
19) Wilhelm Findeisen Darmstadt - 1967
Gas van driver - Kiev AZ Ks 1/67
ZSL AZ 204 AR-Z 269/60 vol 31 fol 18
20) ? Eisenburger Darmstadt - 1967
Gas van driver - EZG 6 Stalino AZ Ks 1/67
ZSL AZ 204 AR-Z 269/60 vol 30 fol 220
21) Robert Mohr Wuppertal - 1965?
Leader of EZG 6 AZ 12 Ks 1/62
ZSL AZ 204 AR-Z 15/60 vol 1 fol 63
22) ? Heidelberger Wuppertal - 1965?
Leader of unit of EZG6 - Rostov AZ 12 Ks 1/62
ZSL AZ 204 AR-Z 15/60 vol 3 fol 129
23) ? Pauly Hanover - 1960
Gas van driver EZG D - Simferopol AZ 2Js 299/60 vol 10 fol 193f
24) ? Stadler Hanover - 1960
Gas van driver EZG D - Simferopol same as above
25) Walter Kehrer Munich - 1975
EZG D - Simferopol kehrer/max drexler trial
AZ 119c Ks 6a-b/70
26) Dr Kurt Christmann Munich - 1980
Leader of Einsatkom 10a - Krasnodar AZ 119c Ks 314 Js 15264/78
27) ? Hanssen Hanover - 1960
EZK 10b - Crimea AZ 2Js 299/60 vol 10 fol 83f
28) Paul Zapp ZSL AZ 213 AR 1900/66
Head of Einsatkom 11a - Sebastopol. (court archives?)
29) ? Schiewer Hanover - 1960
EZK 11a - Armavir AZ 2Js 299/68 vol 10 fol 81
30) Johannes Schlupper Munich - 1972
Section leader - Cherkessk AZ 115 Ks 6/71
ZSL AZ 213 AR-Z 1901/66
31) Paul Otto Hanover - 1960
EZK 12 - Piatigorsk AZ 2Js 299/60 vol 10 fol 58ff.
32) ? Kramp Hanover - 1960
EZK 12 - Piatigorsk AZ 2Js 299/60 vol 10 fol 58ff.
33) Heinz Riedel 14.06.74 Kiel

winess 'Se' - saw wagon
co defendant 'Mei' - admitted driving gas van
witness 'Han' - described trip of gv
34) Kurt Tri - LG Munich - 14.07.72
EZK 10a - Southern Ukraine 114 Ks 4/70
35) Friedrich Sev LG Munich - 14.07.72
EZK 10a - Southern Ukraine 114 Ks 4/70
36) Dr Heinrich Go LG Munich - 14.07.72
EZK 10a - Southern Ukraine 114 Ks 4/70
37) Kurt Trimborn Munich - 14.07.72
Leader of EZK 10a - Jeissk AZ 114 Ks 4a-c/70
38) Dr Gorz Munich - 14.07.72
Member of EZK 10a - Jeissk AZ 114 Ks 4a-c/70
39) ? Schuchart Munich - 23.07.72
EZG - Kertsch AZ 111 Ks 2a-c/71
40) Walter Fi interog 30.09.68
YVA TR.10/1118/7b p402ff
41) Hans Br interog October 68
YVA TR.10/1118/7a p87ff
42) Willy Kr interog 16.08.62
BA B162/3298 p 290
43) Otto Bu interog 16.06.62
BA B162/3298 p 222
44) Karl Ka interog 30.08.60
BA B162/3297 p 45
45) Karl Strohammer interog October 68
YVA TR.10/118/7a p 149f
46) Hans Hasse interog 10.01.63
YVA TR.10/118/5 p 271
47) Adolf Prieb interog October 68
YVA TR.10/1118/7b p 249
48) Hermann Bo interog 08.05.68
BA B162/17033 p 3 ff
49) Gunther St interog 17.09.68
YVA TR.10/1118/7b p 286

F2) Gas vans - Experiments/development :

1) Dr Albert Widmann Interrogation 11.01.60
Chemist Dussledorf - 1959
AZ 8Js 7212/59
Stuttgart - 1967
2) Friedrich Pradel Hannover - 1961 ?
Chief of motor pool Darmstadt - 1967
AZ Ks 1/67
Testimony 5:251-54.
261-62 and 14:03
3) Harry Wientritt Hannover - 02.02.61
Pradels chief mechanic AZ 2 JS 299/60
testimony 5:251-24.
5:207-9
4) Walter Rauff Deposition 28.6.72
Head of Dept 11d RSMO Santiago
StA Hamburg
AZ 147 Js 31/67
affidavit 19.10.45 2348-PS
5) Dr H Hoffman Dussledorf - 1959
Chemist 27.01.59 Hanover
Hanover Az 2 Js 299/60
Interog 13.10.58
BA B162/5066 p 88ff
6) Dr Theodore Leidig Dussledorf - 1959
Chemist Interog 06.02.59
Suttgart Az 13 Js 328/60
BA B162/5066 P106ff
7) Gustav Sorge 07.03.62 - Hanover
Az 2 Js 299/1960
Zsl Az 415 AR-Z 220/59
8) Hans Schmidt interog 11.12.58
BA B162/1602 p 21 cf
9) Andreas von Amburger interog 11.12.58
Nebe's staff member BA B162/2155 p 1329
10) N N Akimova 18.11.46
Russian Doctor

F3) Gas vans - Civilians/inmates :


1) Mendel Vulfovich - 09.12.44 - soviet commission
Jew from Riga Central State Arch of Oct Rev
ZSL USSR file 427/XV/4
Yad Vashem O-53/18
2) Dr Zalman Levinbuck -
Jew from Baranovichi ghetto
3) Boris Dobin - Essen 1964
Jew from Minsk ghetto AZ 29 Ks 1/64
4) Dr Ljudmila Nazarewskaja -
Physician from Rostov
5) Eugenia Ostrovec - Moscow - 1945
Civilian from Piatigorsk (dokumenty obviniaiut)
(documents accuse)
6) ? Fenichel Moscow - 1945
German POW Stavropol (dokumenty obviniaiut)
7) Benno Goldband Munich 1949
Prisoner in Lublin trial of Andreas Hoffman
AZ 1 Ks 18/49
8) Joseph Muller Munich 1949
Prisoner in Lublin trial of Andreas Hoffman
AZ 1 Ks 18/49
9) ? Kotov Moscow - 43 ?

10) 4 staff members of Eysk Hospital LG Munich - 14.07.72
re trial of 3 SS - Kurt Tri, Heinrich Go, Verdict
Freidrich Sev - Esk 10a
Audiophile, motorbiker and sceptic.

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by montgomery » Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:31 pm

nickterry wrote:Sorry, not playing the 'just one witness', 'best witness' or any other hoop-jumping game.

The *totality* of the evidence is what must be assessed by a self-styled skeptic, since there are tens of thousands of eyewitness accounts relevant to the Holocaust dating from the 1940s. These break down by camps, sites, towns, regions and countries.

For Auschwitz alone, towards or over 10,000 statements date from the 1940s - over a thousand Dutch, over 1500 Belgian, hundreds of French, up to 4,000 from deportees from Greater Hungary (DEGOB + Jewish Agency Bucharest), many thousands of Polish statements, hundreds in German and hundreds taken down in English by the British or Americans. Plus Czech/Slovak, Croatian, Greek, Italian, Norwegian and other affidavits, statements, interrogations and memoirs written down in the 1940s.

Clearly, any overly rigid claim based on just a fraction of these statements will fall victim to the fallacy of hasty generalisation, which is also why the one-source-at-a-time approach is meaningless.

Reasonably large chunks of the available 1940s statements are linked here on this page, which I've linked to before:
https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... s-and.html
Not everything is digitised, but some of the bigger collections are, e.g. the DEGOB testimonies, with hundreds translated to English and the rest available in machine-translatable form if wished. This is just one collection, of course.
So Nick, there isn't one single eye witness with which you are willing to stand!

Presumably because that would be a hasty generalisation of how the grinch stole Xmas and the machine translated all the baloney? I'm good with that now Nick, if you are.

I submit to you that all the hype and the dreadful stories of the gassings, the lampshades, the lobrster steaming, and the rest of the phony baloney is disintegrating before our eyes! Without a reliable eye witness account, it's just ain't happenin Nick.

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by montgomery » Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:33 pm

Let's try this a different way!

3) Erich Mussfeldt Krakow - 1947
In charge of crem 2&3 (May - aug 44)

Will you stand behind this one eye witness as credible?

And btw, half of your list is dated in the 60's and so it doesn't qualify. How rude to presume you could pass that off on me!
Last edited by montgomery on Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:34 pm

Nessie, on 25 September (http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 44#p665244), just to let readers know, I linked to DasPrussian's list, and montgomery's response was to ask "Which one?" - I'd already given him a name off the list whom he didn't want to discuss, and to accuse me of lying! The link is contained again in one of the posts I linked to above. Montgomery is doing his best to avoid discussing the witnesses he claims to want to know about.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by montgomery » Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:35 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Nessie, on 25 September (http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 44#p665244), just to let readers know, I linked to DasPrussian's list, and montgomery's response was to ask "Which one?" - I'd already given him a name off the list whom he didn't want to discuss, and to accuse me of lying! The link is contained again in one of the posts I linked to above. Montgomery is doing his best to avoid discussing the witnesses he claims to want to know about.
If you gave me one name then produce it. Sorry but I've learned to ignore most of your posts because they are nothing but insults and spam. You made your bed, you get to lie in it.

One eye witness from the 40's and no more of your senseless drooling over spilt milk.

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