Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

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Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:54 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:So deniers tell us that the witnesses to the killings lies and that their testimonies are part of a hoax....

A day or so ago I posted about pockets of Jews who survived the great sweeps and liquidations of 1942-1943 in the east.

I will come back to these pockets and how they are problematic for deniers’ claims about resettlement and/or survival of millions from these areas in the USSR.

But first I want to say that one of the main ways we know about the exceptional pockets of small numbers of Jews who survived longer than most Jews in the east is through Jewish testimonies, the very supposed liewitneses who are said to have lied about total extermination...

These testimonies poke two gigantic holes in denier fantasies. First, as will become clear, they give additional confirmation of the chronological and other issues Nessie has brought up. Second, they show that there was no hoaxing but rather provide details that help us understand the general rule and exceptions.
The following remarks draw on work done by Martin Dean, one of the co-leads on the USHMM Encyclopedia of ghettos and camps project. This project was the one which estimated that about 42,500 camps and ghettos were established by the Reich and its allies. Dean has recently focused on lesser known camps of the type about which I wrote above, saying that “pockets of Jews who survived the great sweeps and liquidations of 1942-1943 in the east” in places like them.

Rather than a comprehensive survey of such camps, I’ll look at half a dozen case studies representative of lesser-known camps. These case studies will undermine denier fantasies that Jews somehow survived the war in their millions in some of the lesser-known of the USHMM’s 42,500 camps.

Denier claims a) ignore what the USHMM research says went on at these camps, b) disregard, as noted above, the numbers of Jewish prisoners/slave laborers involved, c) suffer from chronological impossibilities, and d) pretend that we lack information about the direction in which Jews from the camps were taken near the time of liberation.

The remarks are based on a published paper by Martin Dean and a forthcoming paper by him as well (let me know if you want references), along with some other examples that I know of. Dean’s work in this area focuses on a small subset of the known camps: camps for small contingents of Jews culled from the masses subject to liquidation and sent to the occupied USSR for forced labor.

The case studies are as follows:

1. Osteinsatz of Silesian Jews
2. Polish Jews, including Jews from the Warthegau, to Palemonas and other Baltic camps
3. Smolensk ZALfJ
4. From Schischmaren (Zezmer) to Pskov and Mokrovo
5. From Slonim to Mogilev
6. Agricultural Camps in Czortków County of Eastern Galicia

One remark before launching into a brief overview of the place of these camps in the Final Solution: Dean is emphatic that the notion that the Jews in these camps were subjected to “destruction through labor” is mistaken. He concludes that
The number of survivors was in most cases just a handful, but they serve as key witnesses to the inevitable complexity and inherent contradictions of German labor policies with regard to Jewish workers behind the Eastern Front, which cannot be adequately described by the phrase “destruction through work.”
To the contrary, Dean argues that these small groups of Jews surviving, for a time, the massive killing waves of 1941-1943, were treated differently from the mass of Jews being exterminated because of labor needs, the skills of the Jewish workers involved, and the policies and practices of different German organizations who had control of these groups of Jews. In fact, according to Dean, the fate of these small numbers of Jewish forced laborers “varied considerably according to the German organization in charge and the nature of the labor assignment.”

A well-known case.

I won’t go into detail about Lithuanian Jews but in our discussions of the Jäger report and the subsequent fate of Lithuanian Jews but Jäger provides an illustration of Dean’s argument. In his report on EK-3 Jäger reminded Stahlecker that the Kommando’s operations supported “the goal of making Lithuania free of Jews” and explained that, with the actions taken, “the goal of solving the Jewish problem for Lithuania has been achieved by Einsatzkommando 3.” Jaeger mentioned that 4,500 Jews were kept alive in Schaulen (Šiauliai) for forced labor, 15,000 in Kauen (Kaunas), and 15,000 in Wilna (Vilnius). Jäger described these Jews as ones he had also “wanted to kill, including their families” but whose murder “the civil administration (the Reichskommissar) and the army” had forbidden in order that the specialists and others be retained for work: “the Work Jews and their families are not to be shot!” In this case, in fact, described the resolution of what to do with these “Work Jews” as having been “acrimonious.” The clear conclusion, based on Jäger’s account, can only be that the agreed and approved means for “making Lithuania free of Jews” was a series of extermination actions in which about 135,000 Jews were killed during summer and fall 1941 – whilst a small number of forced laborers and their families were held out of those subject to extermination; some 34,500 Jews were temporarily spared execution when senior authorities, both regional and military, decided to halt the fall murder actions because of labor needs in the region. In this case, Jäger was uncertain how long the “Work Jews” were to be kept alive.

The Lithuanian “work” Jews remained in the three large ghettos until summer 1943; in late June Himmler ordered that the ghettos be liquidated and the Jews living in them go to camps. Vilnius ghetto was liquidated in August 1943; the liquidation of the ghetto involved the murder of about 5000 Jews, both at Ponary and in the death camps in Poland, as well as dispersal of several 1000s laborers to work camps in Estonia (Vaivara) and Latvia (later some of these laborers were taken to Stutthof as the easternmost camps were abandoned). Perhaps 2000 Jews remained in Vilnius in a few small work camps, among them the Kallis and HKP camps; 250 of the HKP workers survived as Wehrmacht Major Karl Plagge, their commandant, shielded and warned them during the final liquidation action as the Red Army closed in. Šiauliai and Kaunas ghettos were converted into work camps; Jews were taken from these camps during 1943 and early 1944 to Auschwitz, Estonian labor camps (especially Vaivara and its subcamps), and other camps. In July 1944, with the Red Army approaching, Šiauliai, Kaunas, and Vilnius work camps were liquidated and survivors shipped mainly to Stutthof.

Overview of the situation in the East and the Jewish labor camps.

The starting point for analysis of the exceptional pockets (the Jewish labor camps, in this instance) is that by summer of 1942, according to Dean, with the liquidation of the Smolensk ghetto “there were almost no more Jews to be found behind the German front lines” in the occupied territories of the USSR. Although I am not addressing the “almost no more Jews” left point here, a few comments are pertinent.

Take the case of Belorussia, which Dean focuses on (other regions follow somewhat similar patterns but with slightly different time phases, see, for example, Lithuania above): In Belorussia, along with the mass shootings of Jews in the second part of 1941 and during 1942, the Germans established many short-lived ghettos (among the 42,500 camps and ghettos). By summer 1942 most of the ghettos were liquidated as part of the “policy of complete annihilation,” with Khotimsk eliminated in early September 1942 and Sloboda in October of that year. As we will see below, some ghettos were kept open until 1943 in Belorussia. Says Dean, “Only in very few places were a limited number of skilled workers retained after the ghetto liquidations.” This point is important: we are not talking about many 100s of 1000s or millions of surviving Jews at this time. Dean gives the example of Petrovichi where “a few specialist workers were kept alive” but “subsequently shot.”

To retain, and corral, specialist and other needed labor, during this time camps for Jewish forced laborers were set up in the region (e.g., Chashniki, Oster); also, authorities pulled Jewish workers from Jewish forced labor camps for Jews (ZALfJ’s) and ghettos that existed into 1943, including Minsk, Lida, Głębokie, and Nowogródek. These ghettos, to reiterate, did not survive into 1944-1945.

As to the Jewish labor camps, there were a range of such camps established. One better known case includes the labor camps for construction of the Durchgangsstrasse IV from the General-Gouvernement across southern Ukraine to Dnepropetrovsk. These camps were run by the OT and utilized the labor of both Ukrainian and Romanian Jews – in substantial numbers, Longerich says 10,000 by mid-1942 (mortality was extremely high) – along with non-Jewish laborers. Dean cites the Estonian network of camps (see above) as another example – again 1000s of Jews were sent to labor sites in Estonia for a variety of projects during 1943-1944 especially. Another group of labor camps where Jews were sent, during 1942, included Bobruisk, Mogilev, and Smolensk, and Jews were sent to these camps from Warsaw ghetto (Czerniakow mentions the Bobruisk transports in his diary) and other places.

Dean concludes that the existence of these generally small camps to which small labor deployments of Jews were taken from ghettos or other camps
demonstrates that certain aspects of the German war economy did receive temporary priority over the general policy of destruction directed towards the Jews.
These exceptions included, in some, limited cases, evacuation of small groups of skilled workers rather than their murder as the camps were abandoned. As Dean notes, the main way we know about these camps is through the testimonies of handfuls of survivors.

I will continue this discussion in my next post which will focus on the first of Dean’s cases, the Osteinsatz of Silesian Jews. In these cases we will see what the testimonies and sparse documentation tell us happened to the Jews, as a kind of substitute or alternative approach to deniers’ fantasies, wish-dreams, and speculative scenarios about Jews hidden in Unicornville.
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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by montgomery » Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:06 pm

You seem to be trying to do some damage control over the facts coming out by now calling them 'exceptions'. What are we supposed to think now?

And you should also know that no historian would end a long and hard thought post with the sarcasm we see in the last paragraph. You're going to have to try to stop doing that if you want to be seen as credible. Not just for my sake because I already know what you are, but for the sake of others who view this forum to learn.

Having said that, we all know there is a huge revival in learning the truth of the as advertised holocuast.

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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by nickterry » Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:51 pm

montgomery wrote:You seem to be trying to do some damage control over the facts coming out by now calling them 'exceptions'. What are we supposed to think now?
Historians know there are always exceptions to the rule. But the "rule" is geographically and chronologically quite restricted, to certain regions of the Nazi-occupied Soviet territories.

If one looked at Nazi-occupied Eastern Europe as a whole, then the "rule" changes: a larger minority of able-bodied Jews were spared extermination to continue working in a variety of forced labour camps in Poland and the Baltic state, some of which mutated into KZs (Plaszow, Kauen, Kaiserwald, Vaivara) or which were absorbed as sub-camps into KZs (the Organisation Schmelt camps absorbed into Gross-Rosen and Auschwitz); others remaining as work-camps (Skarzysko-Kamienna, Starachowice) or work-ghettos (Lodz), with nearly all camps evacuated in the summer of 1944 westwards into the KZ system in the Reich.

The notion that the Nazis preserved some Jews for forced labour is hardly unfamiliar or contentious, since this was the principle on which Auschwitz operated: select unfit Jews on arrival for gassing, register able-bodied Jews for slave labour. To continue a discussion from another thread, the "100% immediate extermination" strawman might be considered another misconception about the Holocaust circulating among the less well informed. Yet it's directly contradicted by numerous Nazi sources, including the Wannsee Protocol.

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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by scrmbldggs » Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:06 pm

Just cos I'd come across this recently:

Isadore Helfing, TII survivor from Kielce (USHMM/US National Archives)
...they left in the ghetto 300 people to do work. To remain in the city, every city I guess got the same thing, and they remained a little portion, they make a little ghetto for those people and they done you know work, tailoring or was some sewing, so they took me out to remain so that and my family and my parents they just went straight to Treblinka.
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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by montgomery » Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:41 pm

nickterry wrote:
montgomery wrote:You seem to be trying to do some damage control over the facts coming out by now calling them 'exceptions'. What are we supposed to think now?
Historians know there are always exceptions to the rule. But the "rule" is geographically and chronologically quite restricted, to certain regions of the Nazi-occupied Soviet territories.

If one looked at Nazi-occupied Eastern Europe as a whole, then the "rule" changes: a larger minority of able-bodied Jews were spared extermination to continue working in a variety of forced labour camps in Poland and the Baltic state, some of which mutated into KZs (Plaszow, Kauen, Kaiserwald, Vaivara) or which were absorbed as sub-camps into KZs (the Organisation Schmelt camps absorbed into Gross-Rosen and Auschwitz); others remaining as work-camps (Skarzysko-Kamienna, Starachowice) or work-ghettos (Lodz), with nearly all camps evacuated in the summer of 1944 westwards into the KZ system in the Reich.

The notion that the Nazis preserved some Jews for forced labour is hardly unfamiliar or contentious, since this was the principle on which Auschwitz operated: select unfit Jews on arrival for gassing, register able-bodied Jews for slave labour. To continue a discussion from another thread, the "100% immediate extermination" strawman might be considered another misconception about the Holocaust circulating among the less well informed. Yet it's directly contradicted by numerous Nazi sources, including the Wannsee Protocol.
Talk to stat. mech., not me. He's the one who have jumped too soon into the damage control revisions. You need to tell him to take it easy and think out what he's about to do before he jumps into the fire. You've not dealing with simpletons any longer.

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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by scrmbldggs » Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:53 pm

montgomery wrote:
nickterry wrote:
montgomery wrote:You seem to be trying to do some damage control over the facts coming out by now calling them 'exceptions'. What are we supposed to think now?
Historians know there are always exceptions to the rule. But the "rule" is geographically and chronologically quite restricted, to certain regions of the Nazi-occupied Soviet territories.

If one looked at Nazi-occupied Eastern Europe as a whole, then the "rule" changes: a larger minority of able-bodied Jews were spared extermination to continue working in a variety of forced labour camps in Poland and the Baltic state, some of which mutated into KZs (Plaszow, Kauen, Kaiserwald, Vaivara) or which were absorbed as sub-camps into KZs (the Organisation Schmelt camps absorbed into Gross-Rosen and Auschwitz); others remaining as work-camps (Skarzysko-Kamienna, Starachowice) or work-ghettos (Lodz), with nearly all camps evacuated in the summer of 1944 westwards into the KZ system in the Reich.

The notion that the Nazis preserved some Jews for forced labour is hardly unfamiliar or contentious, since this was the principle on which Auschwitz operated: select unfit Jews on arrival for gassing, register able-bodied Jews for slave labour. To continue a discussion from another thread, the "100% immediate extermination" strawman might be considered another misconception about the Holocaust circulating among the less well informed. Yet it's directly contradicted by numerous Nazi sources, including the Wannsee Protocol.
Talk to stat. mech., not me. He's the one who have jumped too soon into the damage control revisions. You need to tell him to take it easy and think out what he's about to do before he jumps into the fire. You've not dealing with simpletons any longer.
:hmm: No wonder INCE can't make out what the heck he was asked to do earlier. :?
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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by Balmoral95 » Sun Sep 23, 2018 11:14 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
montgomery wrote:
nickterry wrote:
montgomery wrote:You seem to be trying to do some damage control over the facts coming out by now calling them 'exceptions'. What are we supposed to think now?
Historians know there are always exceptions to the rule. But the "rule" is geographically and chronologically quite restricted, to certain regions of the Nazi-occupied Soviet territories.

If one looked at Nazi-occupied Eastern Europe as a whole, then the "rule" changes: a larger minority of able-bodied Jews were spared extermination to continue working in a variety of forced labour camps in Poland and the Baltic state, some of which mutated into KZs (Plaszow, Kauen, Kaiserwald, Vaivara) or which were absorbed as sub-camps into KZs (the Organisation Schmelt camps absorbed into Gross-Rosen and Auschwitz); others remaining as work-camps (Skarzysko-Kamienna, Starachowice) or work-ghettos (Lodz), with nearly all camps evacuated in the summer of 1944 westwards into the KZ system in the Reich.

The notion that the Nazis preserved some Jews for forced labour is hardly unfamiliar or contentious, since this was the principle on which Auschwitz operated: select unfit Jews on arrival for gassing, register able-bodied Jews for slave labour. To continue a discussion from another thread, the "100% immediate extermination" strawman might be considered another misconception about the Holocaust circulating among the less well informed. Yet it's directly contradicted by numerous Nazi sources, including the Wannsee Protocol.
Talk to stat. mech., not me. He's the one who have jumped too soon into the damage control revisions. You need to tell him to take it easy and think out what he's about to do before he jumps into the fire. You've not dealing with simpletons any longer.
:hmm: No wonder INCE can't make out what the heck he was asked to do earlier. :?
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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by scrmbldggs » Sun Sep 23, 2018 11:21 pm

So what's offered has been pulled out by the teeth then, eh.
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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Sep 23, 2018 11:24 pm

I guess he found Nick’s comment too hard to understand.
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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by Darren Wilshak » Sun Sep 23, 2018 11:28 pm

He's got worse over time, I mean he was never completely grounded but he seems to be in the process of losing the plot completely

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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by Balmoral95 » Sun Sep 23, 2018 11:38 pm

Darren Wilshak wrote:He's got worse over time, I mean he was never completely grounded but he seems to be in the process of losing the plot completely
I dunno, I always thought he was a full on loon... too bad UK mental hygiene authorities couldn't lasso him before he absconded to Sweden.

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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by scrmbldggs » Sun Sep 23, 2018 11:53 pm

I think his mommy posts here also, in the loony section, claiming what Dolfie did was an act of love.
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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by Darren Wilshak » Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:03 am

Can we trap him, Bait the snare with something, perhaps a nice piece of Zisblatt, Been There?

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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by nickterry » Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:05 am

montgomery wrote: Talk to stat. mech., not me. He's the one who have jumped too soon into the damage control revisions. You need to tell him to take it easy and think out what he's about to do before he jumps into the fire. You've not dealing with simpletons any longer.
:lol:

what you don't seem to realise is that Martin Dean's chapter inadvertently refutes several claims by 'revisionists' of 'resettlement' via extermination camps. Carlo Mattogno and Thomas Kues both seized on diary entries from Lithuanian ghettos mentioning the arrival of Jews from Lodz in 1942 and falsely concluded that these must have 'transited' via Chelmno; in actual fact they had been deported for forced labour to the Danzig area in early 1941, long before Chelmno even existed, and were taken from there by the Organisation Todt to Lithuania.

'Revisionists' like Mattogno and his acolytes would very much like to claim that over 1.5 million Jews were 'transited' to the occupied Soviet territories instead of being gassed in Chelmno, Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka and Auschwitz in 1942 - yet at most a few thousand were deported from Poland to a handful of labour camps in the 'east', with a few thousand more being shifted around inside the occupied Soviet territories. Either they were moved by or for the Organisation Todt (StatMech's examples #1 and 2) or were shifted by the SS for their own purposes (StatMech's examples #3-5, also the Bobruisk camp which he mentioned). None of the examples StatMech mentioned were 'transited' via an extermination camp.

On a personal note, having discussed these "exceptions to the rule" with historians for sixteen years, and mentioned several of them in published articles or conference papers, I just want to underline how amusing I find your interjections on this thread: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by Balmoral95 » Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:18 am

Darren Wilshak wrote:Can we trap him, Bait the snare with something, perhaps a nice piece of Zisblatt, Been There?
I always thought he and Irene would make a good couple... sitting wrapped in tartan blankets, gumming down souffles, and screaming delusions at each other. Meanwile, the ex Frau Been_There has absconded to Sud Amerika and shacked up with an Argentinian polo player with a 30 inch..... mallet.

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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:40 am

:lol:
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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by Balmoral95 » Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:49 am

scrmbldggs wrote::lol:
Ahem, that should have read "30cm", ya know, taking into account our international readership. 8-)

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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:54 am

Balmoral95 wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote::lol:
Ahem, that should have read "30cm", ya know, taking into account our international readership. 8-)
Maybe some prefer the good old barleycorn. ;)
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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:43 am

nickterry wrote:
montgomery wrote: Talk to stat. mech., not me. He's the one who have jumped too soon into the damage control revisions. You need to tell him to take it easy and think out what he's about to do before he jumps into the fire. You've not dealing with simpletons any longer.
:lol:

what you don't seem to realise is that Martin Dean's chapter inadvertently refutes several claims by 'revisionists' of 'resettlement' via extermination camps. Carlo Mattogno and Thomas Kues both seized on diary entries from Lithuanian ghettos mentioning the arrival of Jews from Lodz in 1942 and falsely concluded that these must have 'transited' via Chelmno; in actual fact they had been deported for forced labour to the Danzig area in early 1941, long before Chelmno even existed, and were taken from there by the Organisation Todt to Lithuania.

'Revisionists' like Mattogno and his acolytes would very much like to claim that over 1.5 million Jews were 'transited' to the occupied Soviet territories instead of being gassed in Chelmno, Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka and Auschwitz in 1942 - yet at most a few thousand were deported from Poland to a handful of labour camps in the 'east', with a few thousand more being shifted around inside the occupied Soviet territories. Either they were moved by or for the Organisation Todt (StatMech's examples #1 and 2) or were shifted by the SS for their own purposes (StatMech's examples #3-5, also the Bobruisk camp which he mentioned). None of the examples StatMech mentioned were 'transited' via an extermination camp.

On a personal note, having discussed these "exceptions to the rule" with historians for sixteen years, and mentioned several of them in published articles or conference papers, I just want to underline how amusing I find your interjections on this thread: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Damn you, you're spoiling part 3 or 4, I forget which :) (the Lodz Jews mentioned by Dean cracked me up, for the same reason as you: yeah, there were a very few Lodz Jews in Lithuanian work camps, but their presence there torched Kues' case - and did nothing to call into doubt the historical research on Lodz and Chelmno).

With his "contributions" to this thread, montgomery is signaling two things: he truly doesn't know anything about the historical research and, worse, he doesn't wish to find anything out about.

To add to Nick's point - and to be serious here and to try to stop guffawing at montgomery's comical confusion of his own idiocy for the state of knowledge in the field - there were not 100s of 1000s or millions of Jews in these camps at war's end to be taken by the Soviets and brought back to the USSR, either.

Much of the information that I discussed in the OP has been long known and often discussed. My post above gave some very thoroughly discussed cases - especially for members here of Lithuania.

Also, as SSF members will know, although not the phony skeptics, Dean’s contention that the Nazis sometimes gave “temporary priority [to labor] over the general policy of destruction directed towards the Jews” is a basic point that deniers habitually pretend they cannot grasp. Dean’s contribution has been to pull together some disparate sources about the groups of “Work Jews” into a narrative of these exceptional cases of which historians have been aware. As will be seen – I will highlight the basic points so that even deniers, including simpletons like montgomery, will necessarily see them – these exceptions only reinforce our general knowledge of the fate of Jews in the East. And they block off deniers’ dishonest efforts to use the exceptions or the “42,500” camps as an escape clause.
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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:07 am

As this thread develops, what else, I wonder, will “montgomery” want to go on the record as being ignorant of?
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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by Balmoral95 » Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:17 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:As this thread develops, what else, I wonder, will “montgomery” want to go on the record as being ignorant of?
Well do remember he's a true dilletante... so he knows nothing... but everything... or thinks so.

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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by montgomery » Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:19 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:As this thread develops, what else, I wonder, will “montgomery” want to go on the record as being ignorant of?
Yeah numbnuts, that's your usual ploy when you get up against the wall with your lies. Call others ignorant and hope there are enough lowlifes on the board to act as your parrots.

You must be very proud of how eggs and company make your case.

Usually rows of smiley faces which obviously nobody can refute. And are sooooooo maddening! :oops:

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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by Balmoral95 » Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:24 am

montgomery wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:As this thread develops, what else, I wonder, will “montgomery” want to go on the record as being ignorant of?
Yeah numbnuts, that's your usual ploy when you get up against the wall with your lies. Call others ignorant and hope there are enough lowlifes on the board to act as your parrots.

You must be very proud of how eggs and company make your case.

Usually rows of smiley faces which obviously nobody can refute. And are sooooooo maddening! :oops:
"rows of smiley".... Talk to the slobbering retard you brought with you.

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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by montgomery » Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:27 am

nickterry wrote:
On a personal note, having discussed these "exceptions to the rule" with historians for sixteen years, and mentioned several of them in published articles or conference papers, I just want to underline how amusing I find your interjections on this thread: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Doctor Nicky??

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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:29 am

Aw, StatMech, you Shirley broke that little pump of the little member today.
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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by Balmoral95 » Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:31 am

montgomery wrote:
nickterry wrote:
On a personal note, having discussed these "exceptions to the rule" with historians for sixteen years, and mentioned several of them in published articles or conference papers, I just want to underline how amusing I find your interjections on this thread: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Doctor Nicky??
Somebody really shitted on this one's scholastic abilities.... Was it at the second-rate boys' boarding school? Or earlier?

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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:34 am

Balmoral95 wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:As this thread develops, what else, I wonder, will “montgomery” want to go on the record as being ignorant of?
Yeah numbnuts, that's your usual ploy when you get up against the wall with your lies. Call others ignorant and hope there are enough lowlifes on the board to act as your parrots.

You must be very proud of how eggs and company make your case.

Usually rows of smiley faces which obviously nobody can refute. And are sooooooo maddening! :oops:
"rows of smiley".... Talk to the slobbering retard you brought with you.
Lol, that member seems related to that weirdo Omnisomethingsomething. Or was it that "Christ" character. Anywho, one of the really disturbed ones that grace these hallowed pages from time to time. :laffout:
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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 24, 2018 3:25 pm

1 Osteinsatz of Silesian Jews

The Osteinsatz was a German project which involved the transfer of Jews from Reichsautobahn ZALfJ camps near Breslau in Silesia (Sakrau, Brande, Eichtal, Auenrode) to the occupied East for labor in Sebezh and other localities in early 1942. The prisoners departed for the East from Gross Masselwitz. This case was further an exception among the exceptional cases discussed here in that the Jewish laborers were mostly returned to Silesia after a typhus outbreak in the East.

Arriving at Sebezh in January 1942, the Jewish laborers from Silesia were put to work narrowing the railway gauge on the line between Sebezh and Velikie Lukie. The workers were supervised by Organization Todt (OT). The men were taken to the Sebezh by train under guard by ethnic Germans. At Sebezh, some of the men lived in the boxcars, whilst others were selected for work at another, nearby camp (Idritsa), from where they were later sent to other locations. At Idritsa the initial work involved clean-up of corpses mostly of Soviet POWs who’d been interned there before the arrival of the Jewish inmates; after this, the men worked, as were those left behind at Sebezh, on narrowing of railway gauge.

Some key points discussed by Dean:

* About 350 Jews from Silesia ZALfJ’s were part of the Osteinsatz to the occupied USSR
50 of the men remained at Sebezh, the main group being taken to Idritsa and other sites
* During the bitterly cold winter, a typhus epidemic among the men taken to Idritsa left about half of them incapacitated and caused many deaths
* The Germans brought the Sebezh and Idritsa groups back together at Sebezh, where a German doctor recommended in March that they be taken back to Breslau in order to stop the spread of typhus in the area
* During the 10-day railway trip to Gross Masselwitz, there were further fatalities amongst the Jewish laborers, who were transferred to the St Annaberg camp for recovery; fewer than half (120-150) the original number sent east were still alive
* Another 12 men died at St Annaberg; after the survivors, “they were dispersed among ZAlfJs Gräditz, Markstädt, and Bunzlau (Dean does not discuss how many of the men survived those camps but notes that some survived to give testimony about the Osteinsatz)

Note that
* another researcher, Bella Guterman, has written about the Osteinsatz (and other exceptions to the rule); she explains that the Osteinsatz was a one-off, unrepeated experiment in labor usage
* these men were under OT control and were deemed useful laborers, useful enough to be given medical treatment; they were never in the KL system, in ghettos subject to shooting actions of the Einsatzgruppen of the Security Police and SD, or in Einsatz Reinhard camps
* the size of this deployment was minuscule – 350 Jewish men (we will see in the other cases below how small and exceptional these labor deployments were – even had all the Jews in them survived, which was far from the case, we’d have a few 1000s of “extra” survivors, no help for finding the millions deniers say they are looking for)
* even this small group, treated much better than others and provided group medical care, suffered over 50% fatalities during 1942
* historians know about the Osteinsatz mainly from survivor testimonies; the hoax command and Zionist promoters of “complete extermination” apparently forgot to clue these survivors in on the hoax agenda and write their scripts for them
* as someone (I think Jeffk) recently commented, Nazi Jewish policy (and labor practices) were not developed according to a central master plan; rather, the Jewish extermination unfolded in escalating steps, involving a number of different agencies the immediate needs and interests of which competed – a broad consensus on the elimination of the Jews united the different agencies but practical, day-to-day steps, lacking a master plan, were not always aligned and were in fact sometimes contradictory and resulted in a great deal of complexity, which historians have been for two or more decades foregrounding in narratives of the Final Solution


2 Polish Jews, including Jews from the Warthegau, to Palemonas and other Baltic camps

An even earlier labor deployment of a small number of Jews to the occupied USSR took place in summer 1941. These were Polish Jews who’d also been working on OT road construction near Danzig and were transferred to a camp in Lithuania, ZALfJ Palemonas. Their work at Palemonas included clearing forest for future railway construction. In summer 1942 another group of Jews from Reichsautobahn camps near Danzig was sent to Palemonas. At Palemonas were Jews from Vilnius as well; survivor testimony identified some of the forced laborers as coming from Łódź (Nick mentioned these Jews, they confused Kues who imagined he’d debunked Chełmno on account of the exceptional case of this small contingent).

Many of the Jews sent to Palemonas were sent on to labor camps in Latvia, where they cut railroad ties or were assigned to railway construction. At some of the Latvian camps only a small numbers of Warthegau Jews worked. OT supervised the Latvian camps, of which Dean names 10. As with the Jewish laborers at the Osteinsatz camps, the Polish Jews in Latvia suffered a typhus outbreak, which struck in 1943 when most of the men were collected at the Eleja-Metaine camp. Dean thinks that typhus may have been introduced to the camp by fresh deportees from the Riga region.

Some key points discussed by Dean:

* as many as 300-500 Jewish forced laborers at Palemonas; one of the camps to which some Palemonas laborers was sent, Saunags, held just 50 Jews; others had 100 Jews
* food was scarce, and at least once a Jew who foraged in the camp vicinity for food was shot by a Ukrainian guard and killed
* conditions in the Baltic camps seem to have been less harsh than was the norm in Jewish forced labor camps (in both Lithuania and Latvia, Christians living near Palemonas provided some assistance to the incarcerated Jews; in Latvia, OT supervision was not draconian)
* survivors of the Latvian camps in 1944 were moved by the SS to Germany, through the Kaiserwald-Riga and Stuffhof systems; this small number of surviving Jews was moved when the Red Army advanced into Latvia and because the SS wished to preserve labor-power as the Reich came unglued in 1944

Note that
* Dean writes that “Although the survival rate was not high, these men were among very few people who survived at all from some of the ghettos in the Hohensalza region of the Warthegau”
* along with the small numbers involved (300-500) and high mortality among these laborers, it is to be noted that when the camps were evacuated, the men were taken west, to Germany, not left in the east for capture by the Red Army
* deniers won’t find any Warthegau Jews from these deployments in the USSR after the war, nor were any of these men transited through killing camps (Chełmno, the Einsatz Reinhard camps, or Birkenau)

3 Smolensk ZALfJ

Another Jewish forced labor camp in the occupied East was established in the early months of 1942 by the Central Construction Office of the Waffen-SS at Smolensk. Here the forced laborers renovated a hospital for the use of member of Einsatzgruppe B. The Jews were brought to the camp from Minsk and Smolensk to address labor shortages (before their arrival, Soviet POWs and Russian laborers had made up the workforce). Russian auxiliaries guarded the Smolensk camp. The camp’s small population was culled as necessary and those unfit for labor were shot by the Russian auxiliaries or German Security Police guards. During summer 1942 additional Jews were brought to the Smolensk camp; they’d been selected when ghettos in the region were liquidated. Although much of the work of those in the camp involved hospital reconstruction, including a Railway Workers’ Hospital, survivor testimonies indicate that various work teams with differing assignments (e.g., uniform repair) were set up.

In fall 1942 a small number of Jews, highly skilled crafts workers, were selected at the Umschlagplatz in Warsaw during the large deportation action there and brought to the Smolensk ZALfJ (as I once told Eric Hunt, even if his denier chums couldn’t help him find Warsaw Jews who didn’t go to Treblinka, I could – he never took me up on the offer). Periodic selections and executions continued throughout this period so that despite such additions the Smolensk’s population steadily declined. Many times victims were shot in a ditch near the camp’s barracks.

Some key points discussed by Dean:

* the Jewish workers brought to Smolensk from Minsk were 250-300 skilled craftsmen and 20 women for cleaning chores; 150 workers from Smolensk were also brought to the camp – for a total of about 400 or so forced laborers in spring 1942; the summer 1942 influx of Jews selected from liquidated ghettos swelled the camp population to over 1000
* the Smolensk ghetto was liquidated 15 July 1942; on the express approval of SS-Brigadeführer Erich Naumann (chief of EG-B and later tried at Nuremberg) “the Jews in the camp were excluded” from the murder action
* liquidations of the unfit results in 30-40 executions during spring 1942
* survivor testimony describes how selections during and after summer 1942 reduced the Smolensk camp’s population to about 100
* of the 80 Jews transferred to Smolensk from Warsaw, just three survived (they gave testimony)
* a local who lived near the camp testified to the numerous executions of prisoners during the fall of 1942; an exhumation done by Soviets after Smolensk was liberated “uncovered an estimated 1,500 corpses on the territory of the Railway Workers’ Hospital in Smolensk”
* according to ITS records, “only a handful of Jews [from the Smolensk camp] survived the war, although more were evacuated from ZALfJ Smolensk via Minsk to various concentration camps and subcamps further west, where a number perished in turn”

Note that
* again the numbers of Jewish prisoners involved were small, and, among these, there very few Jewish survivors
* most of the laborers in Smolensk camp were murdered in ongoing liquidation actions targeting those unfit for labor, so that only a small group survived until the time when the camp was evacuated
* when the camp was evacuated, in 1943, prisoners were ultimately sent west, not east, in other words the wrong way – and of the small number of survivors, none fell into Soviet hands
* none of these Jewish prisoners were ever in killing camps or transited though them
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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 24, 2018 3:28 pm

Balmoral95 wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:As this thread develops, what else, I wonder, will “montgomery” want to go on the record as being ignorant of?
Yeah numbnuts, that's your usual ploy when you get up against the wall with your lies. Call others ignorant and hope there are enough lowlifes on the board to act as your parrots.

You must be very proud of how eggs and company make your case.

Usually rows of smiley faces which obviously nobody can refute. And are sooooooo maddening! :oops:
"rows of smiley".... Talk to the slobbering retard you brought with you.
Balmoral, has he made one substantive comment on the issues discussed in this thread, or just the usual?
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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by Balmoral95 » Mon Sep 24, 2018 3:53 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:As this thread develops, what else, I wonder, will “montgomery” want to go on the record as being ignorant of?
Yeah numbnuts, that's your usual ploy when you get up against the wall with your lies. Call others ignorant and hope there are enough lowlifes on the board to act as your parrots.

You must be very proud of how eggs and company make your case.

Usually rows of smiley faces which obviously nobody can refute. And are sooooooo maddening! :oops:
"rows of smiley".... Talk to the slobbering retard you brought with you.
Balmoral, has he made one substantive comment on the issues discussed in this thread, or just the usual?
The latter...

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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 24, 2018 3:56 pm

Raises the question what he thinks he's doing here: he doesn't seem to know a thing about the Holocaust - he himself has told us this, but he also refuses to try to learn anything.
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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Sep 24, 2018 3:59 pm

It seems quite clear by now that the member has no other agenda than to disrupt and complain. About nonexistent rules and norms. At least none applicable to this forum...
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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by montgomery » Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:15 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Raises the question what he thinks he's doing here: he doesn't seem to know a thing about the Holocaust - he himself has told us this, but he also refuses to try to learn anything.
I'm learning at an alarming rate numbnuts, and it's not looking good for the H.P. side. So I don't want to disturb the process too much because the information mine could dry up.

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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:32 pm

No one who has been there is surprised that any learning would alarm you.
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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by montgomery » Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:46 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Raises the question what he thinks he's doing here: he doesn't seem to know a thing about the Holocaust - he himself has told us this, but he also refuses to try to learn anything.
Curious habit you have of mentioning yourself in the third person!

He tries to promote some degree of separation between himself and the persona he's created on this board? Mmhmm!

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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:57 pm

To recap, the discussion of some exceptional cases involving Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied USSR shows that
1. few Jews in Poland and elsewhere were involved, several 1000s
2. evidence about what happened in the camps shows that most of the Jews involved died or were murdered before evacuating the camps
3. none of the Jews involved transited through killing camps (we helped both Kues and Hunt understand some details they felt to be anomalous)
4. those Jews who survived in these camps were evacuated westwards, mostly in front of the Red Army; they didn't remain in the East - thus spoiling the Soviet gambit which Monstrous tried (and IIRC VFX has been trying to sell here)

These points (a) reinforce the understanding of the main (exterminatory) thrust of Nazi Jewish policy, (b) enrich the main narrative by providing details about small numbers of exceptional cases, and (c) create impossibilities that deniers have yet to contend with, showing that the transit and USSR gambits are pure speculation.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Mon Sep 24, 2018 5:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:59 pm

montgomery wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Raises the question what he thinks he's doing here...
...

He tries to promote some degree of separation between himself and the persona he's created on this board? Mmhmm!
Aw, BT, we know it's you, you silly goose. Because you failed miserable in your effort. :-P
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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by montgomery » Mon Sep 24, 2018 5:17 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Raises the question what he thinks he's doing here...
...

He tries to promote some degree of separation between himself and the persona he's created on this board? Mmhmm!
Aw, BT, we know it's you, you silly goose. Because you failed miserable in your effort. :-P
eggs, Who is BT?

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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Sep 24, 2018 5:20 pm

montgomery wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Raises the question what he thinks he's doing here...
...

He tries to promote some degree of separation between himself and the persona he's created on this board? Mmhmm!
Aw, BT, we know it's you, you silly goose. Because you failed miserable in your effort. :-P
eggs, Who is BT?
I think it's time you made another appointment with your therapist "friend".
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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by montgomery » Mon Sep 24, 2018 5:38 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:To recap, the discussion of some exceptional cases involving Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied USSR shows that
1. few Jews in Poland and elsewhere were involved, several 1000s
2. evidence about what happened in the camps shows that most of the Jews involved died or were murdered before evacuating the camps
3. none of the Jews involved transited through killing camps (we helped both Kues and Hunt understand some details they felt to be anomalous)
4. those Jews who survived in these camps were evacuated westwards, mostly in front of the Red Army; they didn't remain in the East - thus spoiling the Soviet gambit which Monstrous tried (and IIRC VFX has been trying to sell here)

These points (a) reinforce the understanding of the main (exterminatory) thrust of Nazi Jewish policy, (b) enrich the main narrative by providing details about small numbers of exceptional cases, and (c) create impossibilities that deniers have yet to contend with, showing that the transit and USSR gambits are pure speculation.
It's all subject to being questioned and none of it can be proven conclusively. It just has to be accepted as the truth and that's the reason why it's become a 'sacred' issue that must never be questioned. And I think it's the reason why eggs, balmoral, D-H, and others who perform in the same childish manner, exist on this board. They deflect from the credibility of others who are seriously in the business of H. Promotion.

That H. Promotion is you, but it's only you part time because you resort to the same childish tactics far too often. You don't need to because there are enough of them to do the job for you.

But I'm more concerned right now on why they feel it's necessary. It's peculiar to this debate on the holocaust, in a way that it's not peculiar to any other debate to the same degree. And apparently, some of them are elderly men in their 60's and 70's.

That kind of behavior and your speaking in the third person about yourself are raising some embarrassing questions. You should start trying to act according to the seriousness of the topic. You're starting to learn through receiving criticism but you're not learning fast enough. (the tough guy thing)

I bring it to your attention and others who care to read because I'm interested in hearing the real meat of the topic and am growing weary of the kid's stuff from eggs, and company. It serves no purpose. Give it some thought and show you're better than that. If in fact you are?

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