Where is your evidence? A challenge to produce evidence.

Holocaust denial and related subjects.
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Nessie
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Where is your evidence? A challenge to produce evidence.

Postby Nessie » Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:05 am

Yet again I have been asked for evidence of the Holocaust, having asked for evidence of denier beliefs.

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=26565&p=660930#p660913

VFX wrote:[quote="Nessie]

Which will require you to present evidence to back up your beliefs and for you to answer all our questions, not just the ones you can cope with. Then you will need the guts to admit if you cannot evidence something happened, it did not happen.[/quote]
I think you might or should have noticed by now there is not much I cannot cope with. I agree with you: if it cannot be evidenced it did not happen: where is your evidence of a Shoah?[/quote]


Whenever I raise the lack of evidence to show deniers are correct, they dodge and suggest there is no evidence for the Holocaust. Lets us see who has the evidence. I will produce one piece of evidence for an event and then VFX, or anyone else can produce evidence to the contrary.

I will start with Stefan Kucharek

https://portal.ehri-project.eu/units/us ... -irn507880

"Stefan Kucharek, born in Małkinia, Poland in 1922, discusses Małkinia's prewar Jewish community; training as a train engineer in 1939 to avoid forced labor; working as an engine driver delivering French and Polish Jewish prisoners to Treblinka; general details about the transport process; geographical details about the train station and Treblinka’s entrance; finding bottles of expensive alcohol on a transport train from France; atrocities committed by Ukrainian guards; the atmosphere of fear during the war; the Treblinka revolt; Himmler’s visit to Treblinka; the trade for goods that grew between local villagers and camp guards; and his assistance to Jews who escaped across the border to Russia."

The translation is here. He took Jews to the camp and empty trains away from the camp. Those trains that left were filthy and had to be cleaned.

Page 11
- But later you came to get the empty cars.
- That’s right
. I came; we waited about half an hour, the gate opened and this German [would say]: “Komm mit”. That’s it. And we were going._______ the engine right away, I hooked up the cars add I came to Treblinka and OK. And later in Małkinia we would leave the empty cars and we would take the ones with the others, the other half; and we would come here again.
- Did you have a chance to see the empty cars; what did they look like?
- Yes, I did; I did.
- And how was it?
- How was it?—you know, they were full of dirt, full of {!#%@}, full of...You know how it is; these were people.
- Were the cars cleaned in Małkinia?
- Yes, they were; and the Jews were cleaning them themselves.

Now, I want evidence that the Jews left TII en-mass. If none can be produced, then it is accepted that did not happen.
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Re: Where is your evidence? A challenge to produce evidence.

Postby VFX » Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:44 am

Nessie wrote:
Now, I want evidence that the Jews left TII en-mass. If none can be produced, then it is accepted that did not happen.

You have no evidence they arrived. Trains stopped at Sobibor, dropped a few sick people off to the hospital and the rest of the people went to Lublin and elsewhere. Those Dutch witnesses you gave all said the same except with hindsight bias years later they filled in their memories of death etc. If you do not have any other evidence Nessie then you are right the Shoah did not happen.
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Re: Where is your evidence? A challenge to produce evidence.

Postby Reaktori » Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:45 am

something something KGB NKVD Zionists (now repeat this ad nauseam, and you have a holocaust denier argument)

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Re: Where is your evidence? A challenge to produce evidence.

Postby Reaktori » Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:48 am

VFX wrote:You have no evidence they arrived. Trains stopped at Sobibor, dropped a few sick people off to the hospital and the rest of the people went to Lublin and elsewhere. Those Dutch witnesses you gave all said the same except with hindsight bias years later they filled in their memories of death etc. If you do not have any other evidence Nessie then you are right the Shoah did not happen.


Why do you even try to deny AR camps? Deniers have been getting obliterated on it for the past decade, ppl like David Cole and Irving basically had no other option but to stop their denial when it came to them.

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Re: Where is your evidence? A challenge to produce evidence.

Postby VFX » Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:52 am

Reaktori wrote:
Why do you even try to deny AR camps? Deniers have been getting obliterated on it for the past decade, ppl like David Cole and Irving basically had no other option but to stop their denial when it came to them.

It is simple they did not function the way you think. I do not care about Cole or Irving. Why do you even try and support such an absurd hypothesis?
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Re: Where is your evidence? A challenge to produce evidence.

Postby Nessie » Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:59 am

VFX wrote:
Nessie wrote:
Now, I want evidence that the Jews left TII en-mass. If none can be produced, then it is accepted that did not happen.

You have no evidence they arrived. Trains stopped at Sobibor, dropped a few sick people off to the hospital and the rest of the people went to Lublin and elsewhere. Those Dutch witnesses you gave all said the same except with hindsight bias years later they filled in their memories of death etc. If you do not have any other evidence Nessie then you are right the Shoah did not happen.


I have just quoted the train driver who speaks to taking train loads of Polish and French Jews to the camp. I can produce more evidence from Nazi documents for mass arrivals at the camp.

The challenge is for you to produce evidence. If you fail to produce any evidence you have failed the challenge and as you admitted here;

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=26565&start=1400#p660913

"I agree with you: if it cannot be evidenced it did not happen"

You also said;

"I think you might or should have noticed by now there is not much I cannot cope with."

So, produce your evidence that Jews left TII en-mass or admit that did not happen.
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Re: Where is your evidence? A challenge to produce evidence.

Postby VFX » Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:03 am

I said they never arrived and that the Einsatz camps were field hospitals. This accounts 100% for the layouts, the Himmelstrasse, the small railways everything. Your version is a gross distortion of reality. Apart from paid eyewitness not much left aye Nessie LOL . NM good try.
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Re: Where is your evidence? A challenge to produce evidence.

Postby Reaktori » Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:03 am

VFX wrote:It is simple they did not function the way you think. I do not care about Cole or Irving. Why do you even try and support such an absurd hypothesis?


You basically just admitted that you don't care about the evidence that makes it obvious the AR camps were sites of mass extermination, and you extend this to literally any other proof of the Holocaust as a whole. Is that correct?

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Re: Where is your evidence? A challenge to produce evidence.

Postby VFX » Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:06 am

Reaktori wrote:
You basically just admitted that you don't care about the evidence that makes it obvious the AR camps were sites of mass extermination, and you extend this to literally any other proof of the Holocaust as a whole. Is that correct?

There is no evidence, except for the fact that the Einsatz camps acted as labour facilities and field hospitals. There was no holocaust.
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Re: Where is your evidence? A challenge to produce evidence.

Postby Reaktori » Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:08 am

VFX wrote:There is no evidence, except for the fact that the Einsatz camps acted as labour facilities and field hospitals. There was no holocaust.


So you simply pretend that the evidence doesn't exist? Cute. I guess I was correct then.

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Re: Where is your evidence? A challenge to produce evidence.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:11 am

Reaktori wrote:
VFX wrote:It is simple they did not function the way you think. I do not care about Cole or Irving. Why do you even try and support such an absurd hypothesis?


You basically just admitted that you don't care about the evidence that makes it obvious the AR camps were sites of mass extermination, and you extend this to literally any other proof of the Holocaust as a whole. Is that correct?

It's one of his strongest methods, he did the same thing in the Einsatzgruppen thread, writing when I asked him about Muehlenkamp's series on Lithuania,
VFX wrote:I am not the slightest interersted in Ms thesis or whatever.

His other specialities are the baseless assertion and the vacuous insult. All of these are forms of dodging.
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Re: Where is your evidence? A challenge to produce evidence.

Postby VFX » Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:15 am

Reaktori wrote:
So you simply pretend that the evidence doesn't exist? Cute. I guess I was correct then.

There is no pretending it just not exist. When I find credible information then I can change my mind but you guys have to do better than this. If you have it then produce it, don't just talk about it as though you know. You do not.
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Re: Where is your evidence? A challenge to produce evidence.

Postby Nessie » Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:44 am

VFX wrote:I said they never arrived and that the Einsatz camps were field hospitals. This accounts 100% for the layouts, the Himmelstrasse, the small railways everything. Your version is a gross distortion of reality. Apart from paid eyewitness not much left aye Nessie LOL . NM good try.


The challenge was for you to provide evidence. I started by providing evidence that large transports arrived at TII and empty trains left. You failed to provide any evidence to counter that. You failed that challenge.

Next challenge; here is evidence that gas chambers were constructed inside the Birkenau kremas;

1 - Letter from SS Hauptsturmfuhrer Bischoff on 29th January 1943

"Krematorium II has been completed but for minor details, thanks to employing all available forces, despite enormous difficulties and freezing weather, using day and night shifts. The furnaces have been lit in the presence of Herr Chief Engineer Prufer of the firm responsible for their construction, Topf & Sons of Erfurt, and they function perfectly. Because of the frost, it has not yet been possible to remove the formwork from the ceiling of the corpse cellar. This is of no consequence, however, as the gassing cellar can be used to this end."

2 - Daily report on the construction of Kremas IV and V on 2nd March 1943;

"On Tuesday 2nd March 1943, the Riedel foreman who, two days earlier had fitted the gas-tight windows in rooms whose function was unspecified, was again working there. and sensibly deduced that he was in a “gas chamber”. His daily report mentions under point 5 (in the room with the windows): “Fußboden Aufschüttung auffülen, stampfen und Fußboden betonieren im Gasskammer / ground covered with hard fill, tamped down and floor concreted in gas chamber”.

3 - Memo from Topf & Sons engineer, Fritz Sander on 17th February 1943;

"February 17, 1943. Mr Schultze calls and advises of the following:
1). The ventilation blower number 450 for the gas cellar cannot be found there although it supposedly had been delivered by us. In the meantime,Mr Heinemann has established that the blower was in fact delivered on November 18, 1942; therefore it should be in stock there. Since, according to Mr Schultze, it is not there and is urgently required, we must immediately deliver it again and produce it in accelerated fashion."

Please produce your evidence something else was bulit into the kremas.
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Re: Where is your evidence? A challenge to produce evidence.

Postby VFX » Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:52 am

Nessie I admire your tenacity. I really do believe you are genuine. I only diss you when you are in your troll mode.
I like to make them do the dance when I ask for evidence, the dancing around the evidence dance. Dance for me deniers! While you are still on your mass gassing hypothesis we and other people are seriously looking into the USSR integration of Jewry, including their culpability. All the evidence you have produced so far has been dismissed as inadequate, propaganda. You know this. Not sure whose mind you are trying to change here, but you know it is not ours.
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Re: Where is your evidence? A challenge to produce evidence.

Postby Nessie » Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:07 pm

VFX wrote:Nessie I admire your tenacity. I really do believe you are genuine. I only diss you when you are in your troll mode.
I like to make them do the dance when I ask for evidence, the dancing around the evidence dance. Dance for me deniers! While you are still on your mass gassing hypothesis we and other people are seriously looking into the USSR integration of Jewry, including their culpability. All the evidence you have produced so far has been dismissed as inadequate, propaganda. You know this. Not sure whose mind you are trying to change here, but you know it is not ours.


The point I am making is that I have evidence. You have none. You then "do the dance" which was my flippant way of describing how you think up reasons to dismiss the evidence. But the point is, I HAVE EVIDENCE. You lied when you said I did not here;

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=26565&p=660930#p660913

"I agree with you: if it cannot be evidenced it did not happen: where is your evidence of a Shoah?"

What I am now proving it is, in fact, you who does not have evidence. I have given you two examples and asked you to provide evidence to show there were mass transports back out of TII and there was something other than gas chambers in Birkenau. You have failed to do both. IT IS YOU WHO DOES NOT HAVE EVIDENCE.

Now, what did you say about what it means to not be able to evidence something? You said, that means it to did not happen.

I have proved the Holocaust narrative is evidenced and the denier one is not. That means the denier narrative of no mass gassing and resettlement did not happen. Be honest and admit you are wrong.
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Re: Where is your evidence? A challenge to produce evidence.

Postby VFX » Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:19 pm

Soz Kelpie what you got is speculation and nothing more. thank you for sharing your speculum with us.
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Re: Where is your evidence? A challenge to produce evidence.

Postby Nessie » Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:32 pm

VFX wrote:Soz Kelpie what you got is speculation and nothing more. thank you for sharing your speculum with us.


That is another lie from you. Speculation means; "the forming of a theory or conjecture without firm evidence."

I have produced a witness who said he was a train driver who took Polish and French people to TII and left with empty trains. I have produced three documents from Birkenau which speak to the construction of a gassing cellar/gas chamber in the kremas.

That is evidence by any standard definition of the word, not speculation.
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Re: Where is your evidence? A challenge to produce evidence.

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:40 pm

VFX wrote:I said they never arrived and that the Einsatz camps were field hospitals. This accounts 100% for the layouts, the Himmelstrasse, the small railways everything. Your version is a gross distortion of reality. Apart from paid eyewitness not much left aye Nessie LOL . NM good try.


Why don’t you support your absurd hypothesis about field hospitals?
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: Where is your evidence? A challenge to produce evidence.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:46 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
VFX wrote:I said they never arrived and that the Einsatz camps were field hospitals. This accounts 100% for the layouts, the Himmelstrasse, the small railways everything. Your version is a gross distortion of reality. Apart from paid eyewitness not much left aye Nessie LOL . NM good try.


Why don’t you support your absurd hypothesis about field hospitals?

Uh, ok, I guess, the AR camps were to field hospitals as T-4 was to a healthcare program ... and this explains the important role of ex-T-4 personnel at the AR camps, to administer special treatments.
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Re: Where is your evidence? A challenge to produce evidence.

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:06 pm

I don’t know about anyone else but the thought of those nice T-4 people tending to sick Jews warms my heart.

Oh, no, I just feel feverish.

Never mind.
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

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The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: Where is your evidence? A challenge to produce evidence.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:08 pm

I get VFX's method: make up any old stupid thing, insist on it, fire off insults, throw in a few flippant and {!#%@} victory statements, refuse to explain or provide evidence ... but demand evidence from Nessie for every clover leaf at the AR camps.
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Re: Where is your evidence? A challenge to produce evidence.

Postby scrmbldggs » Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:23 pm

Insisting that another prove a fantasy or a negative is the all too common trollish nature.
.

Lard, save me from your followers.

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Re: Where is your evidence? A challenge to produce evidence.

Postby VFX » Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:33 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:Insisting that another prove a fantasy or a negative is the all too common trollish nature.

True but sadly that is the Holocaustian way.
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Re: Where is your evidence? A challenge to produce evidence.

Postby Nessie » Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:09 am

VFX wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:Insisting that another prove a fantasy or a negative is the all too common trollish nature.

True but sadly that is the Holocaustian way.


What this challenge has proved is that there is evidence of mass gassing at the AR camps and there is no evidence for the various alternatives suggested by deniers.

You agreed that if something is not evidenced, it did not happen. So why do you believe the AR camps were transit hospital facilities?
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Re: Where is your evidence? A challenge to produce evidence.

Postby VFX » Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:17 am

Nessie wrote: So why do you believe the AR camps were transit hospital facilities?

I don't think I know. Hospital or hospices for rest and recreation. Apart from the hindsight bias, all of the witnesses said sick and elderly were taken off. Everything about those places not only goes against the extermination crap, but screams of a country retreat. Yes for Jews. The rest is Soviet propaganda.
If you disagree without supplying the propaganda crap again, then you need to supply evidence to the contrary. Forget about the train driver. Most trains do deliver stuff and not return, they are not buses. They go to their final destination, the train is pulled apart and the carriages for another job a few days later.
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Re: Where is your evidence? A challenge to produce evidence.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 12, 2018 10:30 am

Re-stating what you think you know is not a valid response to a question about why you think it to be the case. It's simply another dodge and another example of why you are tedious.
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Re: Where is your evidence? A challenge to produce evidence.

Postby Nessie » Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:04 am

VFX wrote:
Nessie wrote: So why do you believe the AR camps were transit hospital facilities?

I don't think I know. Hospital or hospices for rest and recreation.


Evidence please.

Apart from the hindsight bias, all of the witnesses said sick and elderly were taken off. Everything about those places not only goes against the extermination crap, but screams of a country retreat. Yes for Jews. The rest is Soviet propaganda.
If you disagree without supplying the propaganda crap again, then you need to supply evidence to the contrary.


No, it is up to you to evidence your belief. It is not up to me to evidence there were no hospitals etc.

Forget about the train driver. Most trains do deliver stuff and not return, they are not buses.


The evidence that most people were dropped off at the camp and many empty trains left is being dismissed by you because it is inconvenient to your beliefs.

They go to their final destination, the train is pulled apart and the carriages for another job a few days later.


For which you have no evidence, you failed the challenge.
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Re: Where is your evidence? A challenge to produce evidence.

Postby VFX » Wed Sep 12, 2018 7:06 pm

Nessie wrote:
The evidence that most people were dropped off at the camp and many empty trains left is being dismissed by you because it is inconvenient to your beliefs.

For which you have no evidence, you failed the challenge.

link Lets look at some of those eyewitness give in the link, and see how they stand up. I have just chosen three at random.
Elias Cohen
Cato PolakJetje and Sientje Veterman
These are the three he mentioned. So lets re look using the information given by jus three witness at Random.

Elias Cohen
He and the other selected men were herded back onto the train and transported to the Lublin-Majdanek camp.
    If I had known what was going on in the camp I would have stayed there’, said Cohen
    Yet he claims to have known what was going on at the camp as he states in 1947.
    Sick and disabled prisoners had already been hauled onto tippers and taken on a narrow gauge railway straight into the so-called Lager III.Nobody on the transport knew that this separate section of the camp housed the gas chambers and the execution area.


    I am claiming that Mr Cohen had no idea what went on in the camp, he says so, but is using hindsight bias and filling in details from what he did not observe in his report a few years later.

    Cato Polak
      Cato and a group of other unmarried girls were selected to work in another camp.
      As the selectedgirls got back onto the train, the Dutch Jews who stayed behind in the camp were killed in Lager III. In this separate section of the camp the elderly and disabled were thrown from the tippers and shot in front of a pit, while the others were killed in the gas chambers.
      The final destination of the transport was camp Lublin-Flugplatz

As Cato was on the train it is clear that Lager III could not be seen Camp Layout
Which is why according to accounts a path 3m wide called the Himmelfahrtstrasse, lined with hedges were used to fool the victims. Once again this is a recall with hindsight bias with no real observations of anything.

Jetje and Sientje Veterman
The train went on to Sobibor, where the camp SS separated the men and women as soon as they arrived. Jetje did not see what happened to the men
[the young women who were selected to work -were searched
The train’s destination turned out to be the Lublin-Flugplatz labour camp.
[put on a transport to a marmalade factory in Milejow
Jetje and the other women were also taken there later.(to Trawniki)
When she arrived in Trawniki Jetje had seen the male prisoners burn the bodies.
‘It was terrible, it smelled of gas
Eight months later the women returned to Lublin,
In Auschwitz-Birkenau the women were first disinfected and then registered in the Schreibstube.
in September 1944. ‘There was a general selection,’ Jetje recounts. ‘All barracks were gathered. Dr. Mengele came to carry out the selection...many people gassed
Jetje and the other Dutch women ended up in Bergen-Belsen,
her sister, who turned out to have been taken first to Buchenwald and later to Lippstadt. Eventually Sientje would see the end of the war in Kaunitz.

Well quite a tour around Poland these girls had. 7-8 camps respectively. The liquidation at Trawniki is an interesting observation and perhaps could be a thread for someone. Why were these Jewish girls saved, treated amicably and the Jewish men massacred; there is only one explanation of their work and it not just marmalade production if they observed this. Witnesses are often shot arn't they? These girls are also mentioned that there was a "general selection" at Auschwitz, whereas all other documents seem to show only train selections on arrivals. Though as the girls were sent to Bergen Belsen they have no idea where the other people went: it is only an assumption on their part that people were gassed. More rumours and hindsight bias.
However, I accept the testimony of these girls but what it does show are transportations out of Auschwitz.
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Re: Where is your evidence? A challenge to produce evidence.

Postby Nessie » Wed Sep 12, 2018 7:10 pm

Which is evidence I am correct, there is no evidence of mass transports of people not selected to work leaving the AR camps.
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Re: Where is your evidence? A challenge to produce evidence.

Postby VFX » Wed Sep 12, 2018 7:17 pm

The evidence here is that the train moves on with their passengers, not dropped off. The people at the camps were sick and not in any large numbers. Most of the passengers moved on elsewhere, on the same train. Everything else is concocted excrement to suit a Soviet lie.
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Re: Where is your evidence? A challenge to produce evidence.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 12, 2018 7:42 pm

Nessie wrote of Sobibor that "most people were dropped off at the camp and many empty trains left . . ."

VFX picks 3 survivors, a minority of a minority, to generalize about what happened at the camp and to challenge Nessie's statement. But neither the statements nor experiences of these handful of survivors challenge what Nessie wrote, in any way. First, it has long been know (like here: Jules Schelvis, Sobibor: A History of a Nazi Death Camp) that a small number of Jews were not processed with the overwhelming majority brought to Sobibor.

In fact, for example, Schelvis discusses Cato Polak and relies on her testimony for the destinations of some of this small number of Jews and what their stopover at Sobibor was like. Schelvis discusses Jetje and Sientje Veterman as part of this cohort. Schelvis also uses testimony from Alex (Elias) Cohen - to describe the arrival and stopover of his transport.

Schelvis' book, which documents the extermination of Jews at Sobibor, uses many testimonies and other evidence on the extermination process, including the gas chambers, as well as other aspects of the camp. Schelvis uses the testimonies of the individuals mentioned by VFX, among others, to describe aspects of the arrival process which those individuals were aware of. He uses a variety of different testimonies and evidence to describe the other aspects of the camp.

The testimonies of the individuals cherrypicked by VFX are perfectly compatible with the statement that "most people were dropped off at the camp and many empty trains left . . ." They represent exceptions to "most" and their testimonies describe how so.

There is nothing in VFX's post that is relevant to what Nessie wrote; also, there is nothing new in it.
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Re: Where is your evidence? A challenge to produce evidence.

Postby VFX » Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:03 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
There is nothing in VFX's post that is relevant to what Nessie wrote; also, there is nothing new in it.

It is quite relevant. Nessie claims that the people got off the trains which then left empty. The people were holocausted.
The three witness were taken at random from a list of witnesses given by Nessie himself to support the extermination at the camps.
it is clear that only a few sick got of those transports which then moved on.
As those trains were full of people which went elsewhere, then it is obvious there will be no mass transports out of the camps. The people never arrived in the first place as he wishes to suggest.
All of the other witnesses have filled in their memories years after the events with what was told to them by others. No doubt Soviet inspired doctrine. No credibility I am afraid.
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Re: Where is your evidence? A challenge to produce evidence.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:18 pm

VFX wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
There is nothing in VFX's post that is relevant to what Nessie wrote; also, there is nothing new in it.

It is quite relevant. Nessie claims that the people got off the trains which then left empty. The people were holocausted.

Most of them were killed in gas chambers. "Holocaust" is a noun. We can be precise about what happened to most of the people and don't need juvenile wise-cracks.

VFX wrote:The three witness were taken at random from a list of witnesses given by Nessie himself to support the extermination at the camps.

Survivors are a small % of the total number of people taken to Sobibor; among those brought to the camp were small numbers taken for labor to various work camps including Dorohuza. The testimonies of these specific individuals describe a part of the extermination process, and are so used by Schelvis, for example, which has to do with transportation and arrival at the Sobibor camp. Their testimonies also cover other matters, of course.

VFX wrote:it is clear that only a few sick got of those transports which then moved on.

That is not what Cohen, Polak, and Penha-Blits, on the same transport as Polak, describe (pp 273-274); nor do witnesses Stern, Wijnberg, Wins, Schelvis, and others describe arrival as you do (pp 275ff).

VFX wrote:As those trains were full of people which went elsewhere, then it is obvious there will be no mass transports out of the camps. The people never arrived in the first place as he wishes to suggest.

In the first place, some transports had workers selected from them - it is these we're discussing here, not the many others in which the Jews brought to the camp didn't undergo selection. In the second place, you've described the selection differently to the way Schelvis does and the witnesses he uses did, including the ones you cite.

VFX wrote:All of the other witnesses have filled in their memories years after the events with what was told to them by others. No doubt Soviet inspired doctrine. No credibility I am afraid.

Simply false.
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Re: Where is your evidence? A challenge to produce evidence.

Postby Nessie » Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:32 pm

VFX wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
There is nothing in VFX's post that is relevant to what Nessie wrote; also, there is nothing new in it.

It is quite relevant. Nessie claims that the people got off the trains which then left empty. The people were holocausted.
The three witness were taken at random from a list of witnesses given by Nessie himself to support the extermination at the camps.
it is clear that only a few sick got of those transports which then moved on.


The evidence you ignore is

https://www.sobiborinterviews.nl/index. ... icle&id=52

"The camp SS called out they needed workers and Cohen volunteered as a metal worker. He and the other selected men were herded back onto the train and transported to the Lublin-Majdanek camp. In the meantime the other prisoners had been led into Sobibor."

As those trains were full of people which went elsewhere, then it is obvious there will be no mass transports out of the camps. The people never arrived in the first place as he wishes to suggest.
All of the other witnesses have filled in their memories years after the events with what was told to them by others. No doubt Soviet inspired doctrine. No credibility I am afraid.


That selection process of some worked and were transported to other camps whilst the rest disappeared further into the camp is evidenced at all the AR camps and was even photographed at Birkenau.

I am sorry, but I think VFX is now just a troll as he has been shown that repeatedly.
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Re: Where is your evidence? A challenge to produce evidence.

Postby VFX » Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:36 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:That is not what Cohen, Polak, and Penha-Blits, on the same transport as Polak, describe (pp 273-274); nor do witnesses Stern, Wijnberg, Wins, Schelvis, and others describe arrival as you do (pp 275ff).


These people needed to have been put under intense cross examination at the time. This was not done. There is a sense of huge corroboration here, no doubt Soviet inspired. On this basis their statements are interesting but not fact.
There are some elements of truth but in all cases, the details are filled in after wards, years later. Instead of using words like assisted, they use "hauled". They say people were gassed, when they had no direct knowledge of this; the alleged chamber or hospital was out of view. Rifle shots were heard, but perhaps guards were doing target practice as they are required to do in times of conflict. Military people do this. It could be total lying due to fear, fake expectations, but mainly hindsight bias with other people filling the details in which they accepted hook line and sinker.
There were no murders at the Reinhardt camps for the most part. No evidence once those lie witnesses are discounted.
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Re: Where is your evidence? A challenge to produce evidence.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:37 pm

Nessie wrote:The evidence you ignore is

https://www.sobiborinterviews.nl/index. ... icle&id=52

"The camp SS called out they needed workers and Cohen volunteered as a metal worker. He and the other selected men were herded back onto the train and transported to the Lublin-Majdanek camp. In the meantime the other prisoners had been led into Sobibor."

Excerpt from Cohen's testimony in Schelvis' book, which VFX is clearly not familiar with (he wants to revise what he doesn't know!):

Image

(p 74)
Nessie wrote:I am sorry, but I think VFX is now just a troll as he has been shown that repeatedly.

Yup.
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Re: Where is your evidence? A challenge to produce evidence.

Postby VFX » Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:39 pm

Nessie wrote:
That selection process of some worked and were transported to other camps whilst the rest disappeared further into the camp is evidenced at all the AR camps and was even photographed at Birkenau.
Please stop quoting the eyewitnesses again and again. I have read through all of their testimony and find huge gaps and inconsistencies. Unless you have something else other than that then your claim fails.
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Re: Where is your evidence? A challenge to produce evidence.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:46 pm

VFX wrote:no doubt Soviet inspired.

Prove it.

VFX wrote:On this basis their statements are interesting but not fact.

Here you reveal that you don't understand the barest rudiments of how research in the social sciences is done. Please continue . . .

OTOH you and montgomery expect us to take HEART's translation of a single testimony as, er, fact.

Sorry, but no. That's not how it works.

VFX wrote:They say people were gassed, when they had no direct knowledge of this; the alleged chamber or hospital was out of view.

Of course, there is perpetrator testimony to the use of gas chambers, by those who knew, in the Reinhard camps (https://archive.org/details/BelzecSobib ... ACritique; https://web.archive.org/web/20070705060 ... rger.html; viewtopic.php?f=39&t=25172&p=449442#p449442, etc).

VFX wrote:There were no murders at the Reinhardt camps for the most part. No evidence once those lie witnesses are discounted.

Define "lie witness" and show how, oh to take a name at random, Münzberger, mentioned in the links above, is one.
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Re: Where is your evidence? A challenge to produce evidence.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:47 pm

VFX wrote:
Nessie wrote:
That selection process of some worked and were transported to other camps whilst the rest disappeared further into the camp is evidenced at all the AR camps and was even photographed at Birkenau.
Please stop quoting the eyewitnesses again and again. I have read through all of their testimony and find huge gaps and inconsistencies. Unless you have something else other than that then your claim fails.

I get it, rely on them without thought if something they say can be stretched to support your pet theory; toss them otherwise.

You're happy to quote these testimonies until you can't twist, turn, distort them into what you want - we all notice. Then testimonies are all suspect.

What social science training and experience do you have, by the way?
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Where is your evidence? A challenge to produce evidence.

Postby VFX » Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:15 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
What social science training and experience do you have, by the way?

Obviously more than you as well as other fields of science. With the exception of psychology, most social sciences, despite the name is not classed as science at all, including history, sociology and so on. I do not have an MA (hons) in Twiddly Winks like you seem to have.
You are correct, the witnesses to not count due to lack of hard empirical evidence to corroborate their statements, which if true would be easy to find evidence. There is very little, only propaganda claims which are most likely Soviet inspired due to most of those camps finding their way behind the Iron Curtain.
Without those witnesses who have not been challenged there seems little else to support any of the claims. So the onus is on the Holocaustians to provide corroborating evidence to support the witnesses who are probably dead by now.
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