Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

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Re: Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:02 pm

Balmoral95 wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:So if the Goebbels diaries are forged and therefore worthless, how is it that revisionists have use them as definitive proof of the death toll at Dresden?


montgomery wrote:You want us to accept the authenticity of the Goebbels diary. I'm suggesting that there's not much point in doing that...I think it's not unreasonable for me to say that some of the diary could be authentic...

:lol:


I knew that was coming before I started writing :lol:


It's forever the same, innit. :lol:
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Re: Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Postby Balmoral95 » Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:10 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:So if the Goebbels diaries are forged and therefore worthless, how is it that revisionists have use them as definitive proof of the death toll at Dresden?


montgomery wrote:You want us to accept the authenticity of the Goebbels diary. I'm suggesting that there's not much point in doing that...I think it's not unreasonable for me to say that some of the diary could be authentic...

:lol:


I knew that was coming before I started writing :lol:


It's forever the same, innit. :lol:


True dat. Looking forward to the next installment in which the parts he thinks are authentic will tend to support his mind-numbingly, baseless assertions.

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Re: Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:18 pm

But it's nice to have Darren and Upton back!
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Re: Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:19 pm

Second that!
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Re: Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Postby VFX » Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:06 pm

montgomery wrote:
As I said above. This is at least the sort of comment from you that deserves noticing.

We have established that the diaries are tampered with on probability, being a part of the disinformation campaign by the Russian Intelligence Services. An interesting read but so is the Silmarillion. At least with this work the editing of it by Tolkien's son Christopher is admitted.
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Re: Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Postby Nessie » Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:08 pm

VFX wrote:
montgomery wrote:
As I said above. This is at least the sort of comment from you that deserves noticing.

We have established that the diaries are tampered with on probability, being a part of the disinformation campaign by the Russian Intelligence Services. An interesting read but so is the Silmarillion. At least with this work the editing of it by Tolkien's son Christopher is admitted.


Russian intelligence plant documents in archive and wait to see of one day, someone finds them? Is that how it works?
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Re: Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Postby Balmoral95 » Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:08 pm

VFX wrote:
montgomery wrote:
As I said above. This is at least the sort of comment from you that deserves noticing.

We have established that the diaries are tampered with on probability, being a part of the disinformation campaign by the Russian Intelligence Services. An interesting read but so is the Silmarillion. At least with this work the editing of it by Tolkien's son Christopher is admitted.


Why don't you two get a room someplace.

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Re: Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:10 pm

>> We have established that the diaries are tampered with on probability

Seriously? They've established that they are credulous nitwits ... little else beyond that.
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Re: Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Postby Balmoral95 » Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:12 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:>> We have established that the diaries are tampered with on probability

Seriously? They've established that they are credulous nitwits ... little else beyond that.


Wouldn't you love to be able to waltz into a courtroom and successfully argue that your evidence is better "on probability" :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:14 pm

Or that the other attorney is harsh, so I win the case?
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Re: Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Postby montgomery » Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:46 pm

VFX wrote:
montgomery wrote:
As I said above. This is at least the sort of comment from you that deserves noticing.

We have established that the diaries are tampered with on probability, being a part of the disinformation campaign by the Russian Intelligence Services. An interesting read but so is the Silmarillion. At least with this work the editing of it by Tolkien's son Christopher is admitted.


And they all present nothing but rude remarks, except Nessie who I hope is not being coerced into going there too out of frustration.

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Re: Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Postby VFX » Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:59 am

Balmoral95 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:>> We have established that the diaries are tampered with on probability

Seriously? They've established that they are credulous nitwits ... little else beyond that.


Wouldn't you love to be able to waltz into a courtroom and successfully argue that your evidence is better "on probability" :lol: :lol: :lol:

As science is based on statistics and probability yep. It is done all the time... at least in real courts not the TV ones.
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Re: Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Postby Nessie » Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:09 am

VFX wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:>> We have established that the diaries are tampered with on probability

Seriously? They've established that they are credulous nitwits ... little else beyond that.


Wouldn't you love to be able to waltz into a courtroom and successfully argue that your evidence is better "on probability" :lol: :lol: :lol:

As science is based on statistics and probability yep. It is done all the time... at least in real courts not the TV ones.


In court, perjury has to be proved beyond reasonable doubt. That the Soviets have tampered with evidence in other cases is not evidence they tampering with everything. You need to actually show evidence the diary has been tampered with somehow. That would mean you trace the person who did the work and they admit to it. Or there is something physical about the microfiche or document that is wrong. You have nothing like that.

Deniers use propaganda, they lie, deceive, dodge, prevaricate, etc. Yet, I do not dismiss every single denier and point they make, just because it came from a denier. The Soviets have not lied about eveything and planted tons of evidence waiting to be found.
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Re: Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Postby VFX » Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:14 am

Nessie wrote:
In court, perjury has to be proved beyond reasonable doubt. That the Soviets have tampered with evidence in other cases is not evidence they tampering with everything. You need to actually show evidence the diary has been tampered with somehow. That would mean you trace the person who did the work and they admit to it. Or there is something physical about the microfiche or document that is wrong. You have nothing like that.

I think that an ex normal bobby like yourself thinks that Secret Police work the same way as Constables, they do not.
In all countries they are a law unto themselves, and no court can touch them. They are the master of deception. They are spies as well as cops. Anything that goes into the potential hands of any Secret Police or Intelligence agency has to be brushed aside: it is corrupt from its inception.
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Re: Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Postby Nessie » Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:52 am

VFX wrote:
Nessie wrote:
In court, perjury has to be proved beyond reasonable doubt. That the Soviets have tampered with evidence in other cases is not evidence they tampering with everything. You need to actually show evidence the diary has been tampered with somehow. That would mean you trace the person who did the work and they admit to it. Or there is something physical about the microfiche or document that is wrong. You have nothing like that.

I think that an ex normal bobby like yourself thinks that Secret Police work the same way as Constables, they do not.
In all countries they are a law unto themselves, and no court can touch them. They are the master of deception. They are spies as well as cops. Anything that goes into the potential hands of any Secret Police or Intelligence agency has to be brushed aside: it is corrupt from its inception.


You have dodged my point. It is unreasonable to dismiss the diaries purely because they were found in Soviet archives.
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Re: Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Postby VFX » Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:05 am

Nessie wrote:
You have dodged my point. It is unreasonable to dismiss the diaries purely because they were found in Soviet archives.

They are the thoughts of one man who on all accounts suffered from depression as many do. Interesting as they are they have to be taken with a grain of salt. As an ex cop you should understand the chain of evidence more than most. Once in Soviet hands that is broken and you are dealing with Intelligence Services. That is outside of your league.
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Re: Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Postby Nessie » Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:19 am

VFX wrote:
Nessie wrote:
You have dodged my point. It is unreasonable to dismiss the diaries purely because they were found in Soviet archives.

They are the thoughts of one man who on all accounts suffered from depression as many do.


That is a weird claim and rather insulting. Have you heard of the poisoning of the well logical fallacy? It is used by people who are losing the debate and have no evidence. So they attack the character of their opponent.

Interesting as they are they have to be taken with a grain of salt.


Indeed, as I would if they had just been found today. But they have been seen and assessed by numerous qualified academics and there has been no genuine reason to produced to doubt them.

As an ex cop you should understand the chain of evidence more than most. Once in Soviet hands that is broken and you are dealing with Intelligence Services. That is outside of your league.


The Soviets recovered a lot of evidence, it just got bundled up and removed. Much has been found in their archives, by historians and even deniers such as C Mattogno. The actual chain of evidence is unknown because we do not know specific details, though Wiki has some information;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goebbels_Diaries

"The boxes of glass plates containing the microfilmed diaries were sent in April 1945 to Potsdam just west of Berlin, where they were buried. The original handwritten and typed diaries were packed and stored in the Reich Chancellery.[14] Some of these survived, and formed the basis for the publication of sections of the diaries (mainly from the war years) after the war. The boxes of glass plates at Potsdam were discovered by the Soviets and shipped to Moscow, where they sat unopened until they were discovered by the German historian Elke Fröhlich in 1992. Only then did the publication of the full diaries become possible."

but that is not sourced. So, we have a partial chain of evidence.
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Re: Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Postby VFX » Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:28 am

Thank you Nessie for reminding me of the chain. You have no evidence to show it was just "bundled up and removed". I doubt it with something so important as this. The shoah was created in the USSR. On all probability that is.
A partial chain is the same as a partial water pipe. it does not function. OK
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Re: Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Postby Nessie » Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:13 pm

VFX wrote:Thank you Nessie for reminding me of the chain. You have no evidence to show it was just "bundled up and removed". I doubt it with something so important as this. The shoah was created in the USSR. On all probability that is.
A partial chain is the same as a partial water pipe. it does not function. OK


I just produced evidence the plates were sent to Potsdam in 1945, buried, retrieved and then sent to Moscow. Separately the handwritten diaries were traced in the Reich Chancellery.

Your lying that I have no evidence has got to stop. Just because you disagree with the evidence, or think it is weak (which in this case it is) does not, therefore, mean there is no evidence.
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Re: Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Postby VFX » Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:16 pm

Nope the NKVD or KGB got there grubby little hands on these files or documents. The mere thought that they did is enough to discount. The whole lot could be a fake, not just a few edited items.
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Re: Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Postby Nessie » Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:37 pm

VFX wrote:Nope the NKVD or KGB got there grubby little hands on these files or documents. The mere thought that they did is enough to discount. The whole lot could be a fake, not just a few edited items.


Now, that is speculation for which you have no evidence. Do you understand the difference between speculation and evidence?
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Re: Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Postby Aaron Richards » Tue Sep 11, 2018 4:01 pm

Revisionist A: "Anything that's been in the Moscow state archives cannot be trusted. Because umm.. remember Katyn!!!!!"

Revisionist B: "Documents we found in the Moscow state archives prove there were only 87k registered deaths in Auschwitz!"

Ah, revisionist scholars make for such good entertainers.
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Re: Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Postby Nessie » Tue Sep 11, 2018 4:29 pm

Mattogno found shed loads of documents he uses in his books. They must all now be discounted. Excellent point Aaron.
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Re: Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Postby montgomery » Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:02 pm

Ah, revisionist scholars make for such good entertainers.


Don't allow any of them to drag you down into the personal attacking sewers with them Nessie. You at least shouldn't be thanking one of them for that remark.

Frankly Nessie, anyone reading here with an open mind is going to get a bad taste in his mouth from the spamming alone. That has to detract from your efforts. Don't make it even worse.

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Re: Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Postby Nessie » Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:02 pm

montgomery wrote:
Ah, revisionist scholars make for such good entertainers.


Don't allow any of them to drag you down into the personal attacking sewers with them Nessie. You at least shouldn't be thanking one of them for that remark.

Frankly Nessie, anyone reading here with an open mind is going to get a bad taste in his mouth from the spamming alone. That has to detract from your efforts. Don't make it even worse.


You missed out the part of what Aaron said that I was thanking him for. You should have understood that, considering my response to him and referencing a revisionist who uses Soviet kept records without any questioning of the dubiety of the sources.
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Re: Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Postby montgomery » Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:55 pm

Nessie wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Ah, revisionist scholars make for such good entertainers.


Don't allow any of them to drag you down into the personal attacking sewers with them Nessie. You at least shouldn't be thanking one of them for that remark.

Frankly Nessie, anyone reading here with an open mind is going to get a bad taste in his mouth from the spamming alone. That has to detract from your efforts. Don't make it even worse.


You missed out the part of what Aaron said that I was thanking him for. You should have understood that, considering my response to him and referencing a revisionist who uses Soviet kept records without any questioning of the dubiety of the sources.


If you strictly refrain from the bad behavior of the others, you won't have to keep having to make excuses Nessie. maybe we need to monitor each others behavior.

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Re: Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Postby Nessie » Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:45 am

Montgomery and VFX, please deal with this inconsistency;

Aaron Richards wrote:Revisionist A: "Anything that's been in the Moscow state archives cannot be trusted. Because umm.. remember Katyn!!!!!"

Revisionist B: "Documents we found in the Moscow state archives prove there were only 87k registered deaths in Auschwitz!"

...


and my point about how deniers accept many documents as correct when Mattogno finds them in Moscow archives.
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Re: Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Postby VFX » Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:50 am

Nessie wrote:

and my point about how deniers accept many documents as correct when Mattogno finds them in Moscow archives.

Most of the archived documents were just that, not important. You may notice I do not quote Mattogno very much but produce my own reasoning. It is you and Werd which do this, and it does piss the forum off, which resulted in your 12 bannings or so this year alone.
When it comes to something so important as Goebbels diaries I suspect that the Intelligence Services would have a great interest. Remember Nessie you were a cop, maybe a detective but you were never a spy. Big boys games big boys rules.
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Re: Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Postby Nessie » Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:55 am

VFX wrote:
Nessie wrote:

and my point about how deniers accept many documents as correct when Mattogno finds them in Moscow archives.

Most of the archived documents were just that, not important. You may notice I do not quote Mattogno very much but produce my own reasoning. It is you and Werd which do this, and it does piss the forum off, which resulted in your 12 bannings or so this year alone.
When it comes to something so important as Goebbels diaries I suspect that the Intelligence Services would have a great interest. Remember Nessie you were a cop, maybe a detective but you were never a spy. Big boys games big boys rules.


So, you pick and chose which document you think was tampered with by the Soviets, depending on your own reasoning. Evidence has no part to play.
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Re: Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Postby VFX » Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:57 am

Nessie wrote:

So, you pick and chose which document you think was tampered with by the Soviets, depending on your own reasoning. Evidence has no part to play.

Your lack of education clearly shows through on all threads Nessie; it seems you do not understand statistics or probability. The chances of a Goebbels diary being tampered with is significantly higher than some document of no important at the time. Mr Goebbels was extremely important. Even you must be suspicious.
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Re: Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Postby Nessie » Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:46 am

Goebbels Diary does not have any specifics about AR, the AR camps and it says nothing about gassings. It is the relatively innocuous documents to do with the construction of the Birkenau kremas that make specific reference to gassings, but not what was gassed.

If this was a hoax, why be so subtle? The wording of the diaries and the construction documents show consistency in that the Nazis were open about getting rid of the Jews, but secretive about some of the methods.

The Soviets were not bothered about accuracy when they reconstructed the gas chambers at Auschwitz I or Majdanek.
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Re: Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Postby VFX » Wed Sep 12, 2018 7:57 pm

Nessie wrote:If this was a hoax, why be so subtle? The wording of the diaries and the construction documents show consistency in that the Nazis were open about getting rid of the Jews, but secretive about some of the methods.

The Soviets were not bothered about accuracy when they reconstructed the gas chambers at Auschwitz I or Majdanek.

The Soviet Intelligence are the worlds best. Attention to great detail to make a document seem authentic and believable to their own purposes. When you are dealing with the NKVD, KGB, GRU, FSB and SVR you are not dealing with amateur policeman, who by comparison are the keystone cops. The Gestapo and SD borrowed from the above agencies the methodology.
You are correct they were not subtle but either way people believed that Auschwitz crap, until David Cole exposed it as fraudulent. When people think something is true they look for confirmation evidence, which is confirmation bias. Any building that fitted the parameters was automatically a gas chamber... duh. :roll:
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Re: Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Postby Nessie » Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:13 pm

VFX wrote:
Nessie wrote:If this was a hoax, why be so subtle? The wording of the diaries and the construction documents show consistency in that the Nazis were open about getting rid of the Jews, but secretive about some of the methods.

The Soviets were not bothered about accuracy when they reconstructed the gas chambers at Auschwitz I or Majdanek.

The Soviet Intelligence are the worlds best. Attention to great detail to make a document seem authentic and believable to their own purposes. When you are dealing with the NKVD, KGB, GRU, FSB and SVR you are not dealing with amateur policeman, who by comparison are the keystone cops. The Gestapo and SD borrowed from the above agencies the methodology.
You are correct they were not subtle but either way people believed that Auschwitz crap, until David Cole exposed it as fraudulent. When people think something is true they look for confirmation evidence, which is confirmation bias. Any building that fitted the parameters was automatically a gas chamber... duh. :roll:


The Soviets {!#%@} up two gas chamber reconstructions, grossly exaggerated death tolls, lied about Katyn, but you think they meticulously faked diary entries for Goebbels and Mattogno managed to find only genuine documents.

You are unbelievably unconvincing.
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Re: Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Postby VFX » Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:15 pm

Nessie wrote:
The Soviets {!#%@} up two gas chamber reconstructions, grossly exaggerated death tolls, lied about Katyn, but you think they meticulously faked diary entries for Goebbels and Mattogno managed to find only genuine documents.

You are unbelievably unconvincing.

Personal diary of a Minister of the Reich was in NKVD hands and you think they are not going to alter it. Get real.
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Re: Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Postby Nessie » Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:21 pm

VFX wrote:
Nessie wrote:
The Soviets {!#%@} up two gas chamber reconstructions, grossly exaggerated death tolls, lied about Katyn, but you think they meticulously faked diary entries for Goebbels and Mattogno managed to find only genuine documents.

You are unbelievably unconvincing.

Personal diary of a Minister of the Reich was in NKVD hands and you think they are not going to alter it. Get real.


Going by the "evidence" the Soviets presented at Nuremberg, if they had altered it, they would have added in lurid details about mass gassing and not missed that out at all. Indeed, why has no document come out of Soviet archives that clearly states "today 6,789 people were gassed at Treblinka" or similar?
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