Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

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Nessie
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby Nessie » Fri Sep 07, 2018 9:39 am

Montgomery claims he is not a denier, but he is using classic denier tactics rather than an investigation of the evidence using the historical method of enquiry. Maybe he can explain why that is.
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Sep 07, 2018 1:23 pm

montgomery wrote:
I think that each piece of evidence needs to be able to stand alone Nessie.


Here’s me, trying to have a serious discussion discussion...

You can’t look at each document separately. History doesn’t really work like that, you are looking at a series of steps taken to get to a point. That point is connected to other points who have their series of steps.

None of this happened in some sort of glorious isolation. You need to look at how things evolved to get from point A to point B. Nessie is showing you that. Now you need to go from documents to testimony to see how this worked.

Holocaust deniers speculate on what these buildings were but the reality is it’s all speculation.

There have been far too many lies and exaggerations in the past for us now to accept anything that is questionable.


Why is anything Nessie posted questionable? This isn’t lampshades and shrunken heads.
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

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The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Sep 07, 2018 1:24 pm

Nessie wrote:Montgomery claims he is not a denier, but he is using classic denier tactics rather than an investigation of the evidence using the historical method of enquiry. Maybe he can explain why that is.



I don’t think he really wants to discuss anything.
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:04 pm

...besides him/herself...
.

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby montgomery » Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:33 pm

Nessie wrote:Montgomery claims he is not a denier, but he is using classic denier tactics rather than an investigation of the evidence using the historical method of enquiry. Maybe he can explain why that is.


I'm sorry you feel that way Nessie. I should maybe have warned you that I don't convince easily, being a true skeptic. It's more than just a word to me, it's a way of life I put to work on any controversial topic. I'm also quite involved with reading alternative views being expressed on antiwar.com, RT.com, AlJazeera, and a few others. However, I always read the U.S. official propaganda views and watch U.S. news broadcasts regularly. In a nutshell, I'm not easily convinced or fooled.

I have to say that I'm at least getting some ideas from your efforts and I've started to crosscheck what you are presenting with information from Mattorno and a few others. Can you or anyone else here recommend more of the latest writing that's been done on refuting the holocaust. Frankly, there's no good can come out of not reading opinions from both sides.

You say I'm using denier tactics so can you explain what you mean by that? As I've said, I'm not yet to the denier stage and may not get there, but my curiosity has been raised by some of the views on this board vs. some of the differing views being expressed on the two competitor's boards. Due to the time gone by since the events in question, it's not an easy job of separating the wheat from the chaff.

Anyway, thanks for your participation in a decent and polite conversation. I sincerely hope this post of yours is not just your throwing up your hands in frustration over the slow progress.

cheers, montgomery.

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby Nessie » Fri Sep 07, 2018 7:54 pm

montgomery wrote:
Nessie wrote:Montgomery claims he is not a denier, but he is using classic denier tactics rather than an investigation of the evidence using the historical method of enquiry. Maybe he can explain why that is.


I'm sorry you feel that way Nessie. I should maybe have warned you that I don't convince easily, being a true skeptic.


A true sceptic is not someone who is not easily convinced. A true sceptic is someone who understands evidencing, which so far you have shown no signs of doing.

It's more than just a word to me, it's a way of life I put to work on any controversial topic. I'm also quite involved with reading alternative views being expressed on antiwar.com, RT.com, AlJazeera, and a few others. However, I always read the U.S. official propaganda views and watch U.S. news broadcasts regularly. In a nutshell, I'm not easily convinced or fooled.


So far, you seem to prefer just sitting on the fence and show an inability to able to assess evidence.

I have to say that I'm at least getting some ideas from your efforts and I've started to crosscheck what you are presenting with information from Mattorno and a few others. Can you or anyone else here recommend more of the latest writing that's been done on refuting the holocaust. Frankly, there's no good can come out of not reading opinions from both sides.


The documents are not a matter of opinion. There is no opinion to them;

A - existing
B - having been verified as originals from archives
C - their wording and the use of the word gas.

You say I'm using denier tactics so can you explain what you mean by that?


viewtopic.php?f=39&t=29669#p659631

As I've said, I'm not yet to the denier stage and may not get there, but my curiosity has been raised by some of the views on this board vs. some of the differing views being expressed on the two competitor's boards. Due to the time gone by since the events in question, it's not an easy job of separating the wheat from the chaff.

Anyway, thanks for your participation in a decent and polite conversation. I sincerely hope this post of yours is not just your throwing up your hands in frustration over the slow progress.

cheers, montgomery.


You could do a quick search on the documents to find numerous references to them and that no one disputes their authenticity. Unless you are near to Auschwitz and can access the archives yourself, you have no way of doing any additional verification. You waste your time responding to those you profess to have no time for. Your slow progress just looks like prevarication.
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby montgomery » Fri Sep 07, 2018 11:35 pm

You're just going to have to be patient Nessie. Don't fall into the same crazed screeching for a bit of holocaust denial from me like the others are still doing.

You'll note that JeffK is still stuck in that phase of the procedure.

I don’t think he really wants to discuss anything.


Demonstrating impatience to the point of him deciding to join the others now with his bad behavior.

I don't care what they do Nessie, it's to my credit that I can drive them to distraction by not barging ahead with their craved denial requests. And frankly, I want you to continue the way you're going but I'm far from being dependent on it.

montgomery.

p.s. I'm working on a plan of starting a thread where only polite on topic posts will be considered. It may happen but it's going to be dependent on encouraging some of the previous posters who have left this forum due to the spamming nonsense, coming back. The rules would be, ignoring all spamming and an effort by all to condemn it, be they pro or con. I would even approach the moderator to ask him to delete all spamming but I realize that would be asking a lot of his use of time devoted to this forum.

In essence, something like what we are doing here already, but without giving any recognition to the spamming of others.

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Sep 07, 2018 11:38 pm

Nessie wrote:A 48 hour ban for allegedly trolling RODOH...


It's dead without you, innit. :lol:
.

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Sep 07, 2018 11:39 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:It's dead without Nessie, innit. :lol:


If the expectation is that RODOH posters will come back I think Montgomery will be sorely disappointed.
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Sep 07, 2018 11:40 pm

ditto
.

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby montgomery » Fri Sep 07, 2018 11:52 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:It's dead without Nessie, innit. :lol:


If the expectation is that RODOH posters will come back I think Montgomery will be sorely disappointed.


I don't need very many. Even if I got one to come and post here, understanding that he/she would have a skeptic ally, and wouldn't be just drowned out by the spam. Do you think it's possible? And do you think it would drive the book-kid off the deep end? And then what if I got Nessie to join in and maybe another skeptic from the other site?

Whattaya think? Would it work for you too if you could get yourself back to last weeks behavior pattern?

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Sep 08, 2018 12:07 am

montgomery wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:It's dead without Nessie, innit. :lol:


If the expectation is that RODOH posters will come back I think Montgomery will be sorely disappointed.


I don't need very many. Even if I got one to come and post here, understanding that he/she would have a skeptic ally, and wouldn't be just drowned out by the spam. Do you think it's possible? And do you think it would drive the book-kid off the deep end? And then what if I got Nessie to join in and maybe another skeptic from the other site?

Whattaya think? Would it work for you too if you could get yourself back to last weeks behavior pattern?


Do what you like.
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby Nessie » Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:56 am

montgomery wrote:You're just going to have to be patient Nessie. Don't fall into the same crazed screeching for a bit of holocaust denial from me like the others are still doing.

You'll note that JeffK is still stuck in that phase of the procedure.

I don’t think he really wants to discuss anything.


Demonstrating impatience to the point of him deciding to join the others now with his bad behavior.

I don't care what they do Nessie, it's to my credit that I can drive them to distraction by not barging ahead with their craved denial requests. And frankly, I want you to continue the way you're going but I'm far from being dependent on it.

montgomery.

p.s. I'm working on a plan of starting a thread where only polite on topic posts will be considered. It may happen but it's going to be dependent on encouraging some of the previous posters who have left this forum due to the spamming nonsense, coming back. The rules would be, ignoring all spamming and an effort by all to condemn it, be they pro or con. I would even approach the moderator to ask him to delete all spamming but I realize that would be asking a lot of his use of time devoted to this forum.

In essence, something like what we are doing here already, but without giving any recognition to the spamming of others.


Since you are so easily distracted by other posts here, your suggestion will never work. I will await your response to my question, where is the doubt from the documents presented that there was construction work to build gas tight rooms in the Birkenau kremas?
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby VFX » Sat Sep 08, 2018 11:09 am

montgomery wrote:
I don't need very many. Even if I got one to come and post here, understanding that he/she would have a skeptic ally, and wouldn't be just drowned out by the spam. Do you think it's possible? And do you think it would drive the book-kid off the deep end? And then what if I got Nessie to join in and maybe another skeptic from the other site?

Whattaya think? Would it work for you too if you could get yourself back to last weeks behavior pattern?

Not sure what last weeks behaviour pattern was, or do you mean misbehaviour: you are dealing with a kindergarten you know.
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby scrmbldggs » Sat Sep 08, 2018 4:23 pm

Is that why you guys are here? Besides missing Nessie...


However, sorry to disappoint. We don't provide the Crayola level of education and entertainment.
.

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby montgomery » Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:35 pm

VFX wrote:
montgomery wrote:
I don't need very many. Even if I got one to come and post here, understanding that he/she would have a skeptic ally, and wouldn't be just drowned out by the spam. Do you think it's possible? And do you think it would drive the book-kid off the deep end? And then what if I got Nessie to join in and maybe another skeptic from the other site?

Whattaya think? Would it work for you too if you could get yourself back to last weeks behavior pattern?

Not sure what last weeks behaviour pattern was, or do you mean misbehaviour: you are dealing with a kindergarten you know.


JeffK at least attempted to have a grownup discussion last week but he's now decided to go dark with me. And it's worth mentioning that he was harassed by the book-kid who apparently fears any discussion on this board. The book-kid is the main promoter of the spamming and personal insult status quo.

Maybe this thread can be one in which we can just ignore their nonsense and rise above it. That would be the most effective way to fight against their bad behavior.

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby montgomery » Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:38 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:Is that why you guys are here? Besides missing Nessie...


However, sorry to disappoint. We don't provide the Crayola level of education and entertainment.


Can we devote just this one thread to a discussion without the silly personal insults of all the others? I think Ness is interested in serious discussion too, and maybe providing a thread for that purpose would be fair to him too. Thanks!

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby scrmbldggs » Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:40 pm

I take (some of) that back. Some cases can only handle the Crayola level.
.

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby scrmbldggs » Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:48 pm

And others, if they wish to be taken seriously, should stop making fools of themselves.
.

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby montgomery » Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:53 pm

VFX wrote:
montgomery wrote:
I don't need very many. Even if I got one to come and post here, understanding that he/she would have a skeptic ally, and wouldn't be just drowned out by the spam. Do you think it's possible? And do you think it would drive the book-kid off the deep end? And then what if I got Nessie to join in and maybe another skeptic from the other site?

Whattaya think? Would it work for you too if you could get yourself back to last weeks behavior pattern?

Not sure what last weeks behaviour pattern was, or do you mean misbehaviour: you are dealing with a kindergarten you know.


VFX, what we must do on this forum is rise above the previous two off-topic spamming messages. If we don't then this forum remains nothing but a goatf-k that serves no useful purpose.

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby scrmbldggs » Sat Sep 08, 2018 6:58 pm

Aw, the baby is cranky again? Maybe you should tell your mommy that the babysitter she keeps hiring is drunk and passed out on the couch as usual.
.

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:49 pm

Oh, Gawd, VFX is posting and then deleting again.
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby VFX » Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:02 pm

Nessie has been asked to present documentary evidence.
He has some letter from a German engineer tasked with building and modifying Leichekellers and Krema.
He goes into tedious detail onto the word gassing cellar. He was told that L3 in these Morgues and the Australian ones L3 is always the autopsy room, which due to pathogens must be strictly isolated from all other rooms: this requirement applied to ventilation systems as well as the requirement to use hermetically sealed gas doors to L3.
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/camps/auschw%20...%20-memo.html

His next document is the construction of the kremas
https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/pressac/technique-and-operation/pressac0446.shtml
Here Nessie claims that gas tight windows were fitted in rooms whose function was unspecified. As you may know with Krema 2 and 3 in Birkenau the Leichenkellers were beneath ground and had no windows. The only windows were in the autopsy room L3, which had a requirement to have its ventilation totally sealed from the rest of the building.

The next Nessie goes to a google groups bulletin board
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y94/Rodoh_Hans/Gaskeller1.jpg
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.revisionism/EWCW94lkz5o%5B26-50%5D
Nessie claims this says "The ventilation blower number 450 for the gas cellar cannot be found there although it supposedly had been delivered by us. ". In German this is said as "Das Lüftungsgebläse Nummer 450 für den Gaskeller ist dort nicht zu finden, obwohl ..... This should have read "Der Lüftungsventilator Nummer 450 für den Gasisolierkeller ist nicht da, obwohl.....


Once again, this is for L3 the autopsy room which was a gas isolation cellar or Gasisolierkeller. As the Germans were corresponding to one another and knew the purpose of the installation there were short cuts in the language.

Nessie comes up with more "documentary evidence" produced here
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2012/10/index-of-published-evidence-on.html

1 - Order of 13 February 1943 on “12 gas tight doors approx. 30/40” for crematorium 4 and 5 [Pressac, Technique, p. 444]
2 -Order of 15 February 1943 on “210 anchors for gas tight doors” for crematorium 4 [Pressac, Technique, p. 448]
3- Order of 19 February 1943 on “4 tight doors” for crematorium 4 [Pressac, Technique, p. 452]
4 - List of materials of 24 February 1943 on “12 gas tight doors approx. 30/40” for crematorium 4 and 5 [Pressac, Technique, p. 444]
5 - Delivery note of 24 February 1943 on “fittings of 12 gas tight doors” for crematorium 4 and 5 [Pressac, Technique, p. 443]
6 - Work time sheet of 28 February 1943 on “fit gas tight windows” in crematorium 4 [Pressac, Technique, p. 445]
7 - Order from Karl Bischoff of 31 March 1943 on “3 gas tight doors” of crematorium 4 and 5 and “gas door 100/192 for corpse cellar 1…with double 8 mm glass and peephole” of crematorium 2 and 3 [Pressac, Technique, p. 436]
8 - Transfer document of 31 March 1943 on “gas door” in crematorium 2 [Pressac, Technique, p. 437]
9 - Order of 6 April 1943 on “24 anchor bolts for gas tight doors” for crematorium 4 and 5 [Pressac, Technique, p. 454]
10 -Order of 16 April 1943 on “iron for fittings for 5 gas doors” for crematorium 4 and 5 [Pressac, Technique, p. 438]
11 - Order of 16 April 1943 on “fitting for 1 gas door” for crematorium 3 [Pressac, Technique, p. 439]
12 - Work time sheet of 16 April 1943 on “fit gas door” in crematorium 5 [Pressac, Technique, p. 454]
13 - Transfer inventory of 24th June 1943 on “14 showers” and “1 gas tight door” in crematorium 3 [Pressac, Technique , p. 430]
There is nothing in the inventory above that does not fit in with the legal requirement to absolutely seal of L3 or the autopsy room, rooms from the rest of the building. Gas doors or hermetically sealed doors are an absolute certainty.

There is no point in going to the Zyklon B detectors due the necessity of disinfestation of the Leichenkellers after lice ridden typhus bodies were placed there until thermal decomposition. Zyklon B was a disinfestation agent which was used wide spread to prevent typhus all over the camp. Due to the construction of morgues being sealed residual HCN could accumulate in many nooks and crannies and be a lethal risk to any worker.

Australian Morgues
You might notice that the Australian mortuary system has 3 rooms
Level 1 Facility (L1) means a mortuary without an autopsy suite. Examinations
performed in this facility will be limited to external examination,
and/or other investigations such as post mortem imaging and
percutaneous needle sampling.
Level 2 Facility (L2) means a mortuary with an autopsy suite without the infrastructure
or personnel expertise to perform high risk or specialised autopsies.
Level 2 facilities will potentially refer some autopsies to a Level 3
facility.
Level 3 Facility (L3) means a mortuary with an autopsy suite and with the infrastructure
and personnel expertise to perform high risk or specialised

Change rooms (L2, 3)
S4.1 Change rooms with shower facilities must be available in the mortuary.
S4.2 Placement of boots and procedures for discarding or washing of clothing must be
clearly designated.
There is clearly a requirement for shower facilities for workers.




Image
K2 Birkenau with leichenkellers


Image
Wakefield mortuary plan
Ich bereure nichts...

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby scrmbldggs » Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:05 pm

VFX wrote:Nessie has been asked to present documentary evidence.
He has some letter from a German engineer tasked with building and modifying Leichekellers and Krema.
He goes into tedious detail onto the word gassing cellar. He was told that L3 in these Morgues and the Australian ones L3 is always the autopsy room, which due to pathogens must be strictly isolated from all other rooms: this requirement applied to ventilation systems as well as the requirement to use hermetically sealed gas doors to L3.
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/camps/auschw%20...%20-memo.html

His next document is the construction of the kremas
https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/pressac/technique-and-operation/pressac0446.shtml
Here Nessie claims that gas tight windows were fitted in rooms whose function was unspecified. As you may know with Krema 2 and 3 in Birkenau the Leichenkellers were beneath ground and had no windows. The only windows were in the autopsy room L3, which had a requirement to have its ventilation totally sealed from the rest of the building.

The next Nessie goes to a google groups bulletin board
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y94/Rodoh_Hans/Gaskeller1.jpg
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.revisionism/EWCW94lkz5o%5B26-50%5D
Nessie claims this says "The ventilation blower number 450 for the gas cellar cannot be found there although it supposedly had been delivered by us. ". In German this is said as "Das Lüftungsgebläse Nummer 450 für den Gaskeller ist dort nicht zu finden, obwohl ..... This should have read "Der Lüftungsventilator Nummer 450 für den Gasisolierkeller ist nicht da, obwohl.....


Once again, this is for L3 the autopsy room which was a gas isolation cellar or Gasisolierkeller. As the Germans were corresponding to one another and knew the purpose of the installation there were short cuts in the language.

Nessie comes up with more "documentary evidence" produced here
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2012/10/index-of-published-evidence-on.html

1 - Order of 13 February 1943 on “12 gas tight doors approx. 30/40” for crematorium 4 and 5 [Pressac, Technique, p. 444]
2 -Order of 15 February 1943 on “210 anchors for gas tight doors” for crematorium 4 [Pressac, Technique, p. 448]
3- Order of 19 February 1943 on “4 tight doors” for crematorium 4 [Pressac, Technique, p. 452]
4 - List of materials of 24 February 1943 on “12 gas tight doors approx. 30/40” for crematorium 4 and 5 [Pressac, Technique, p. 444]
5 - Delivery note of 24 February 1943 on “fittings of 12 gas tight doors” for crematorium 4 and 5 [Pressac, Technique, p. 443]
6 - Work time sheet of 28 February 1943 on “fit gas tight windows” in crematorium 4 [Pressac, Technique, p. 445]
7 - Order from Karl Bischoff of 31 March 1943 on “3 gas tight doors” of crematorium 4 and 5 and “gas door 100/192 for corpse cellar 1…with double 8 mm glass and peephole” of crematorium 2 and 3 [Pressac, Technique, p. 436]
8 - Transfer document of 31 March 1943 on “gas door” in crematorium 2 [Pressac, Technique, p. 437]
9 - Order of 6 April 1943 on “24 anchor bolts for gas tight doors” for crematorium 4 and 5 [Pressac, Technique, p. 454]
10 -Order of 16 April 1943 on “iron for fittings for 5 gas doors” for crematorium 4 and 5 [Pressac, Technique, p. 438]
11 - Order of 16 April 1943 on “fitting for 1 gas door” for crematorium 3 [Pressac, Technique, p. 439]
12 - Work time sheet of 16 April 1943 on “fit gas door” in crematorium 5 [Pressac, Technique, p. 454]
13 - Transfer inventory of 24th June 1943 on “14 showers” and “1 gas tight door” in crematorium 3 [Pressac, Technique , p. 430]
There is nothing in the inventory above that does not fit in with the legal requirement to absolutely seal of L3 or the autopsy room, rooms from the rest of the building. Gas doors or hermetically sealed doors are an absolute certainty.

There is no point in going to the Zyklon B detectors due the necessity of disinfestation of the Leichenkellers after lice ridden typhus bodies were placed there until thermal decomposition. Zyklon B was a disinfestation agent which was used wide spread to prevent typhus all over the camp. Due to the construction of morgues being sealed residual HCN could accumulate in many nooks and crannies and be a lethal risk to any worker.

Australian Morgues
You might notice that the Australian mortuary system has 3 rooms
Level 1 Facility (L1) means a mortuary without an autopsy suite. Examinations
performed in this facility will be limited to external examination,
and/or other investigations such as post mortem imaging and
percutaneous needle sampling.
Level 2 Facility (L2) means a mortuary with an autopsy suite without the infrastructure
or personnel expertise to perform high risk or specialised autopsies.
Level 2 facilities will potentially refer some autopsies to a Level 3
facility.
Level 3 Facility (L3) means a mortuary with an autopsy suite and with the infrastructure
and personnel expertise to perform high risk or specialised

Change rooms (L2, 3)
S4.1 Change rooms with shower facilities must be available in the mortuary.
S4.2 Placement of boots and procedures for discarding or washing of clothing must be
clearly designated.
There is clearly a requirement for shower facilities for workers.




Image
K2 Birkenau with leichenkellers


Image
Wakefield mortuary plan


As stated previously, they can't even count to five...
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby scrmbldggs » Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:09 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:Oh, Gawd, VFX is posting and then deleting again.

S/he's got a nervous tick? Dementia? The tantrums of a child?
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:15 pm

I don’t care who posts here but good grief I can’t stand getting notifications on deleted posts. Either leave it or don’t post.
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“NKVD.”
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby VFX » Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:17 pm

montgomery wrote:Can we devote just this one thread to a discussion without the silly personal insults of all the others? I think Ness is interested in serious discussion too, and maybe providing a thread for that purpose would be fair to him too. Thanks!

This is Nessies thread and he deserves respect for trying to put his viewpoint forward. He does not deserve the trolling that is going on here. A few trolls have been reported to the Mods and it will be interesting if they wish to help clean them up. While there are other explanations to Nessies claim he is right to put them forward for consideration. What matters is the content.
Ich bereure nichts...

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby montgomery » Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:24 pm

VFX wrote:Nessie has been asked to present documentary evidence.
He has some letter from a German engineer tasked with building and modifying Leichekellers and Krema.
He goes into tedious detail onto the word gassing cellar. He was told that L3 in these Morgues and the Australian ones L3 is always the autopsy room, which due to pathogens must be strictly isolated from all other rooms: this requirement applied to ventilation systems as well as the requirement to use hermetically sealed gas doors to L3.
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/camps/auschw%20...%20-memo.html

His next document is the construction of the kremas
https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/pressac/technique-and-operation/pressac0446.shtml
Here Nessie claims that gas tight windows were fitted in rooms whose function was unspecified. As you may know with Krema 2 and 3 in Birkenau the Leichenkellers were beneath ground and had no windows. The only windows were in the autopsy room L3, which had a requirement to have its ventilation totally sealed from the rest of the building.

The next Nessie goes to a google groups bulletin board
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y94/Rodoh_Hans/Gaskeller1.jpg
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.revisionism/EWCW94lkz5o%5B26-50%5D
Nessie claims this says "The ventilation blower number 450 for the gas cellar cannot be found there although it supposedly had been delivered by us. ". In German this is said as "Das Lüftungsgebläse Nummer 450 für den Gaskeller ist dort nicht zu finden, obwohl ..... This should have read "Der Lüftungsventilator Nummer 450 für den Gasisolierkeller ist nicht da, obwohl.....


Once again, this is for L3 the autopsy room which was a gas isolation cellar or Gasisolierkeller. As the Germans were corresponding to one another and knew the purpose of the installation there were short cuts in the language.

Nessie comes up with more "documentary evidence" produced here
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2012/10/index-of-published-evidence-on.html

1 - Order of 13 February 1943 on “12 gas tight doors approx. 30/40” for crematorium 4 and 5 [Pressac, Technique, p. 444]
2 -Order of 15 February 1943 on “210 anchors for gas tight doors” for crematorium 4 [Pressac, Technique, p. 448]
3- Order of 19 February 1943 on “4 tight doors” for crematorium 4 [Pressac, Technique, p. 452]
4 - List of materials of 24 February 1943 on “12 gas tight doors approx. 30/40” for crematorium 4 and 5 [Pressac, Technique, p. 444]
5 - Delivery note of 24 February 1943 on “fittings of 12 gas tight doors” for crematorium 4 and 5 [Pressac, Technique, p. 443]
6 - Work time sheet of 28 February 1943 on “fit gas tight windows” in crematorium 4 [Pressac, Technique, p. 445]
7 - Order from Karl Bischoff of 31 March 1943 on “3 gas tight doors” of crematorium 4 and 5 and “gas door 100/192 for corpse cellar 1…with double 8 mm glass and peephole” of crematorium 2 and 3 [Pressac, Technique, p. 436]
8 - Transfer document of 31 March 1943 on “gas door” in crematorium 2 [Pressac, Technique, p. 437]
9 - Order of 6 April 1943 on “24 anchor bolts for gas tight doors” for crematorium 4 and 5 [Pressac, Technique, p. 454]
10 -Order of 16 April 1943 on “iron for fittings for 5 gas doors” for crematorium 4 and 5 [Pressac, Technique, p. 438]
11 - Order of 16 April 1943 on “fitting for 1 gas door” for crematorium 3 [Pressac, Technique, p. 439]
12 - Work time sheet of 16 April 1943 on “fit gas door” in crematorium 5 [Pressac, Technique, p. 454]
13 - Transfer inventory of 24th June 1943 on “14 showers” and “1 gas tight door” in crematorium 3 [Pressac, Technique , p. 430]
There is nothing in the inventory above that does not fit in with the legal requirement to absolutely seal of L3 or the autopsy room, rooms from the rest of the building. Gas doors or hermetically sealed doors are an absolute certainty.

There is no point in going to the Zyklon B detectors due the necessity of disinfestation of the Leichenkellers after lice ridden typhus bodies were placed there until thermal decomposition. Zyklon B was a disinfestation agent which was used wide spread to prevent typhus all over the camp. Due to the construction of morgues being sealed residual HCN could accumulate in many nooks and crannies and be a lethal risk to any worker.

Australian Morgues
You might notice that the Australian mortuary system has 3 rooms
Level 1 Facility (L1) means a mortuary without an autopsy suite. Examinations
performed in this facility will be limited to external examination,
and/or other investigations such as post mortem imaging and
percutaneous needle sampling.
Level 2 Facility (L2) means a mortuary with an autopsy suite without the infrastructure
or personnel expertise to perform high risk or specialised autopsies.
Level 2 facilities will potentially refer some autopsies to a Level 3
facility.
Level 3 Facility (L3) means a mortuary with an autopsy suite and with the infrastructure
and personnel expertise to perform high risk or specialised

Change rooms (L2, 3)
S4.1 Change rooms with shower facilities must be available in the mortuary.
S4.2 Placement of boots and procedures for discarding or washing of clothing must be
clearly designated.
There is clearly a requirement for shower facilities for workers.




Image
K2 Birkenau with leichenkellers


Image
Wakefield mortuary plan


VFX, Thank you for the ton of information that seems to be at first glance evidence to refute Nessie's claims. Now at least I have something to work with on this forum.

Let's see if we cna keep this thread at least, on track by ignoring the spammers. Hopefully it will convince some of them that the only way to convince others of their credibility is to start acting like grownups.

I've now got lots of homework to look at!

cheers, montgomery

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby Pyrrho » Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:42 pm

VFX wrote:
montgomery wrote:Can we devote just this one thread to a discussion without the silly personal insults of all the others? I think Ness is interested in serious discussion too, and maybe providing a thread for that purpose would be fair to him too. Thanks!

This is Nessies thread and he deserves respect for trying to put his viewpoint forward. He does not deserve the trolling that is going on here. A few trolls have been reported to the Mods and it will be interesting if they wish to help clean them up. While there are other explanations to Nessies claim he is right to put them forward for consideration. What matters is the content.

Nothing here that is any worse than the typical tossing of brickbats. I suggest using the Ignore function.
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby Nessie » Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:50 pm

How come the Australian morgue makes no mention of gas?

Please note. I was in the police. I have been to lots of mortuaries. I have seen lots of dead bodies. I have checked many into mortuaries. In an number of place I worked we had the key and out of hours, we would be responsible for opening up the mortuary, booking in the body, preparing it and putting it into storage. Gas was never an issue. There were no gas-tight doors, windows or chambers in any mortuary I ever went to. There were no showers for the staff. One mortuary was just part of an old RAF hanger with a slab.
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby montgomery » Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:55 pm

Nessie wrote:How come the Australian morgue makes no mention of gas?

Please note. I was in the police. I have been to lots of mortuaries. I have seen lots of dead bodies. I have checked many into mortuaries. In an number of place I worked we had the key and out of hours, we would be responsible for opening up the mortuary, booking in the body, preparing it and putting it into storage. Gas was never an issue. There were no gas-tight doors, windows or chambers in any mortuary I ever went to. There were no showers for the staff. One mortuary was just part of an old RAF hanger with a slab.


Thank you for taking part here in a civil way Nessie, and I hope we can keep it that way. I have a lot of reading to do but I'll keep these later comments in mind as I consider the other side of the evidence.

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby VFX » Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:56 pm

Nessie wrote:How come the Australian morgue makes no mention of gas?

Please note. I was in the police. I have been to lots of mortuaries. I have seen lots of dead bodies. I have checked many into mortuaries. In an number of place I worked we had the key and out of hours, we would be responsible for opening up the mortuary, booking in the body, preparing it and putting it into storage. Gas was never an issue. There were no gas-tight doors, windows or chambers in any mortuary I ever went to. There were no showers for the staff. One mortuary was just part of an old RAF hanger with a slab.

You were a bobby nothing more, not a mortuary technician by training I would assume. The issue is not gas, it is isolation of pathogenic microbes carried in the air which you may realize is a gas. This is important especially with autopsies to prevent the spread of highly infectious diseases. I think in crowded camps where up to 500 a day were dying from typhus and other diseases this would be essential. An old RAF hangar using a slab does not seem the most professional way to go. I think the Germans were a little more sophisticated than you poms and Scots.
If there are not proper gas seals the Australian system recommends extremely fine filtration systems which can filter out the bugs.
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Sep 08, 2018 9:23 pm

Pyrrho wrote:
VFX wrote:
montgomery wrote:Can we devote just this one thread to a discussion without the silly personal insults of all the others? I think Ness is interested in serious discussion too, and maybe providing a thread for that purpose would be fair to him too. Thanks!

This is Nessies thread and he deserves respect for trying to put his viewpoint forward. He does not deserve the trolling that is going on here. A few trolls have been reported to the Mods and it will be interesting if they wish to help clean them up. While there are other explanations to Nessies claim he is right to put them forward for consideration. What matters is the content.

Nothing here that is any worse than the typical tossing of brickbats. I suggest using the Ignore function.

I can attest to its value :)
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby scrmbldggs » Sat Sep 08, 2018 9:41 pm

...until the next sockpuppet slouches along...
.

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby Balmoral95 » Sat Sep 08, 2018 9:57 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:...until the next sockpuppet slouches along...


This one is here by special invite. Might have been nice if the person issuing the invite had used some discretion and invited someone with some actual knowledge. Then again, inviting someone with a knowledge level like unto his own ensures that he's never really challenged by his new pal.

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby scrmbldggs » Sat Sep 08, 2018 10:09 pm

And some think keeping two tabs open makes them a genius. If it does, it makes them a "very stable one".* ;)


* (One sign of which is the extreme overuse of exclamation points. Holy Moly. :lol:)
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby montgomery » Sun Sep 09, 2018 12:31 am

VFX wrote:
Nessie wrote:How come the Australian morgue makes no mention of gas?

Please note. I was in the police. I have been to lots of mortuaries. I have seen lots of dead bodies. I have checked many into mortuaries. In an number of place I worked we had the key and out of hours, we would be responsible for opening up the mortuary, booking in the body, preparing it and putting it into storage. Gas was never an issue. There were no gas-tight doors, windows or chambers in any mortuary I ever went to. There were no showers for the staff. One mortuary was just part of an old RAF hanger with a slab.

You were a bobby nothing more, not a mortuary technician by training I would assume. The issue is not gas, it is isolation of pathogenic microbes carried in the air which you may realize is a gas. This is important especially with autopsies to prevent the spread of highly infectious diseases. I think in crowded camps where up to 500 a day were dying from typhus and other diseases this would be essential. An old RAF hangar using a slab does not seem the most professional way to go. I think the Germans were a little more sophisticated than you poms and Scots.
If there are not proper gas seals the Australian system recommends extremely fine filtration systems which can filter out the bugs.


Great debating points from both sides. It's surprising how fast change is coming to this board!

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby scrmbldggs » Sun Sep 09, 2018 12:39 am

Yeah, the entry challenge is waaayyyyyy too easy.
.

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:25 am

scrmbldggs wrote:...until the next sockpuppet slouches along...

Or, ahem, until someone quotes one of them.
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:25 am

Balmoral95 wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:...until the next sockpuppet slouches along...


This one is here by special invite. Might have been nice if the person issuing the invite had used some discretion and invited someone with some actual knowledge. Then again, inviting someone with a knowledge level like unto his own ensures that he's never really challenged by his new pal.

new slogan for the forum: "We entertain trolls and imbeciles."
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"


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