Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

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Nessie
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Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby Nessie » Thu Aug 30, 2018 7:44 pm

A 48 hour ban for allegedly trolling RODOH and this is the actual reason why. It is a summary of various threads and debates that have been ongoing and, more than at any other time, in my long time spent at RODOH, have had deniers completely flummoxed. The evidence that has stumped RODOH is the brilliant list of documentary evidence compiled by Hans here;

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... ce-on.html

" Index of Published Evidence on Mass Extermination in Auschwitz and Auschwitz-Birkenau
Author: Hans Metzner"

The usual denier reaction to documentary evidence is to either claim the document means something else (eg Vergasungskeller is a disinfection chamber because Vergasung used elsewhere, is in connection to disinfection) or the document is forged.

Since many of the documents have been sourced from Mattogno, who is confirming he found them in archives, I presume that means there has been no claim any, let alone all are forged. Many are also from Jean-Claud Pressac, whom deneirs know has been into the actual archives. Claiming all have been forged is probably a step too far for most deniers anyway. Plus, they think that alternative explanations can be provided.

In steps Arthur Butz who claims the kremas had bomb shelters installed, Samuell Crowell and his claim they were showers and Carlo Mattogno, no they were disinfection/delousing chambers. That disagreement in itself causes problems for deniers, as each can be played off against the other.

Then, using the list of documents, each claim can be picked apart. A bomb shelter?

- Work time sheet of 28 February 1943 on “fit gas tight windows” in crematorium 4 [Pressac, Technique, p. 445]

No bomb shelter had a window fitted. Bricked up would be more credible. The bomb shelter claims is even more unlikely when you consider;

- Letter from Karl Bischoff to Topf of 6 March 1943 on “preheating cellar 1” and “undressing room” in crematorium 2 and 3 [Pressac, Technique, p. 433]
- Working time sheet from Heinrich Messing of 14 March 1943 on “undressing cellar 2” in crematorium 2 [Pressac, Technique, p. 434]

In any case, Birkenau was well out of range of bombers in March 1943. If it was a bomb shelter, why not call it a Luftschutzbunker? Point all that out and deniers go quiet. The next attempt was to claim showers. Much of that is down to one document;

- Transfer inventory of 24th June 1943 on “14 showers” and “1 gas tight door” in crematorium 3 [Pressac, Technique , p. 430]

It says showers and there is also evidence regarding drainage at the kremas. Plus, it explains the dressing rooms and even "Special" action or treatment referenced in many documents;

- Telex from Heinrich Schwarz to SS-WVHA of 5 March 1943 on “918 women and children sent to special treatment“ [Blumental, Dokumenty i materiały, volume 1, p. 109]

There is even an undressing room for krema 3 and its showers;

-Work time sheet from Heinrich Messing of 13 April 1943 on “undressing cellar” in crematorium 3 [Pressac, Technique, p. 439]

There is also a gas tight door;

-Order of 16 April 1943 on “fitting for 1 gas door” for crematorium 3 [Pressac, Technique, p. 439]

which is odd for a shower, but hey, all the kremas were getting gas tight doors fitted. The issue here is that there is one mention of showers in an inventory and that is it. There is no mention of showering and in any case, if it was a shower, why not call it a Dusche? Mattogno tries to get round the language used issue by claiming Vergasungskeller, as in;

- Letter from Karl Bischoff of 29 January 1943 on “gassing cellar” in crematorium 2 [Pressac, Technique, p. 432]

is actually a disinfection chamber because Vergas was used elsewhere in relation to the various disinfection/delousing chambers. In that case, if it was a delousing/disinfection chamber, why not call it an Entlausungskammer or Desinfektionskammer? Then, why have undressing rooms? Undressing for what? So the people's clothes could be deloused, like some laundry system? In a crematorium that mattogno is claiming was required to deal with typhus epidemics and lots of bodies?

Where it completely falls apart for the deniers is the following;

1 - Letter from SS Hauptsturmfuhrer Bischoff on 29th January 1943

"Krematorium II has been completed but for minor details, thanks to employing all available forces, despite enormous difficulties and freezing weather, using day and night shifts. The furnaces have been lit in the presence of Herr Chief Engineer Prufer of the firm responsible for their construction, Topf & Sons of Erfurt, and they function perfectly. Because of the frost, it has not yet been possible to remove the formwork from the ceiling of the corpse cellar. This is of no consequence, however, as the gassing cellar can be used to this end."

2 - Daily report on the construction of Kremas IV and V on 2nd March 1943;

"On Tuesday 2nd March 1943, the Riedel foreman who, two days earlier had fitted the gas-tight windows in rooms whose function was unspecified, was again working there. and sensibly deduced that he was in a “gas chamber”. His daily report mentions under point 5 (in the room with the windows): “Fußboden Aufschüttung auffülen, stampfen und Fußboden betonieren im Gasskammer / ground covered with hard fill, tamped down and floor concreted in gas chamber”.

3 - Memo from Topf & Sons engineer, Fritz Sander on 17th February 1943;

"February 17, 1943. Mr Schultze calls and advises of the following:
1). The ventilation blower number 450 for the gas cellar cannot be found there although it supposedly had been delivered by us. In the meantime,Mr Heinemann has established that the blower was in fact delivered on November 18, 1942; therefore it should be in stock there. Since, according to Mr Schultze, it is not there and is urgently required, we must immediately deliver it again and produce it in accelerated fashion."

There can be no doubt that work was undergoing to install rooms for gassing. Those rooms were not showers, bomb shelters or delousing chambers. As said before, if that is what they were for, why not use the perfectly good German words for such? All of the following are from 1944;

- Proposal list of 9 February 1944 on "after finishing his daily tours, Sch[ramme] was used for the tours due to 'special tasks', Dylewski was "significantly involved in carrying out the 'special tasks' in the camp, and was there to be on duty at day and night"
- Duty notes from August Bielisch of 20 May [Leide, NS-Verbrecher und Staatssicherheit, p. 262], Gottfried Weisse of 24 May and Gerhard Appel of 25 May 1944 [Faschismus - Getto - Massenmord, p. 373]: "I will maintain unconditional secrecy during the measures to carry out the Jewish evacuation, and also vis-à-vis my comrades"
- Telegram from Hans Kammler to the central construction office of 25 May 1944 on “for special action Hungary/program 3 horse stable barracks are immediately to be erected at the swerve bunkers” [Mattogno, STIA, p. 138]
- Memo from Werner Jothann of 17 June 1944 on “camouflage of the crematoria and security measures by erection of a second fence“ [Auschwitz 1940-1945, Volume 3 p. 183]

The was no secret action, needing camoflague in preparation for Hungarians to be showered, deloused or sheltered from bombs. The only logical, credible explanation is of work to make homicidal gas chambers that looked like showers, as described by numerous witnesses.

In all my years spent at RODOH, I have never experienced a panic and suppression of the debate like the reaction to the documentation about gassings at Birkenau. RODOH has had to a CODOH and close the debate down to protect the deniers. That is new to me.
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Aug 30, 2018 7:54 pm

Hi, Nessie.
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby Denying-History » Thu Aug 30, 2018 10:02 pm

Maybe this is sign....

Anyway WB to skeptic for your short stay.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby Balmoral95 » Fri Aug 31, 2018 4:44 am

Pretty much all of that has been available for years, discussed there previously, fisked (to the best of their rather substandard abilities).

What's new here? Fish banned you for a day or two? It's unfair? What's unfair, you remind them of stuff that's inconvenient. Lather, rinse, repeat. If you think you're some noble warrior fighting alone for truth and justice, your not. You're more analogous to an exterminator failed trying to contain roaches.

So what, say you? If you extended your time away from there you would kill the petty, faux dramatics, give them nothing to talk about other than news squibs and their ignorant interpretations, idiotic spin, and general laziness. Fish would have nothing to "moderate". Your absence could kill it, more or less, so, you going to man-up or pussy out and go back?

I imagine you will if for no other reason than you're a "true believer" just like them. Disenthrall yourself.

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby Nessie » Fri Aug 31, 2018 8:29 am

Denying-History wrote:Maybe this is sign....

Anyway WB to skeptic for your short stay.


Thanks. It will be a short stay because I get just as much abuse here as I do there.....
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby montgomery » Fri Aug 31, 2018 4:30 pm

Nessie wrote:A 48 hour ban for allegedly trolling RODOH and this is the actual reason why. It is a summary of various threads and debates that have been ongoing and, more than at any other time, in my long time spent at RODOH, have had deniers completely flummoxed. The evidence that has stumped RODOH is the brilliant list of documentary evidence compiled by Hans here;

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... ce-on.html

" Index of Published Evidence on Mass Extermination in Auschwitz and Auschwitz-Birkenau
Author: Hans Metzner"

The usual denier reaction to documentary evidence is to either claim the document means something else (eg Vergasungskeller is a disinfection chamber because Vergasung used elsewhere, is in connection to disinfection) or the document is forged.

Since many of the documents have been sourced from Mattogno, who is confirming he found them in archives, I presume that means there has been no claim any, let alone all are forged. Many are also from Jean-Claud Pressac, whom deneirs know has been into the actual archives. Claiming all have been forged is probably a step too far for most deniers anyway. Plus, they think that alternative explanations can be provided.

In steps Arthur Butz who claims the kremas had bomb shelters installed, Samuell Crowell and his claim they were showers and Carlo Mattogno, no they were disinfection/delousing chambers. That disagreement in itself causes problems for deniers, as each can be played off against the other.

Then, using the list of documents, each claim can be picked apart. A bomb shelter?

- Work time sheet of 28 February 1943 on “fit gas tight windows” in crematorium 4 [Pressac, Technique, p. 445]

No bomb shelter had a window fitted. Bricked up would be more credible. The bomb shelter claims is even more unlikely when you consider;

- Letter from Karl Bischoff to Topf of 6 March 1943 on “preheating cellar 1” and “undressing room” in crematorium 2 and 3 [Pressac, Technique, p. 433]
- Working time sheet from Heinrich Messing of 14 March 1943 on “undressing cellar 2” in crematorium 2 [Pressac, Technique, p. 434]

In any case, Birkenau was well out of range of bombers in March 1943. If it was a bomb shelter, why not call it a Luftschutzbunker? Point all that out and deniers go quiet. The next attempt was to claim showers. Much of that is down to one document;

- Transfer inventory of 24th June 1943 on “14 showers” and “1 gas tight door” in crematorium 3 [Pressac, Technique , p. 430]

It says showers and there is also evidence regarding drainage at the kremas. Plus, it explains the dressing rooms and even "Special" action or treatment referenced in many documents;

- Telex from Heinrich Schwarz to SS-WVHA of 5 March 1943 on “918 women and children sent to special treatment“ [Blumental, Dokumenty i materiały, volume 1, p. 109]

There is even an undressing room for krema 3 and its showers;

-Work time sheet from Heinrich Messing of 13 April 1943 on “undressing cellar” in crematorium 3 [Pressac, Technique, p. 439]

There is also a gas tight door;

-Order of 16 April 1943 on “fitting for 1 gas door” for crematorium 3 [Pressac, Technique, p. 439]

which is odd for a shower, but hey, all the kremas were getting gas tight doors fitted. The issue here is that there is one mention of showers in an inventory and that is it. There is no mention of showering and in any case, if it was a shower, why not call it a Dusche? Mattogno tries to get round the language used issue by claiming Vergasungskeller, as in;

- Letter from Karl Bischoff of 29 January 1943 on “gassing cellar” in crematorium 2 [Pressac, Technique, p. 432]

is actually a disinfection chamber because Vergas was used elsewhere in relation to the various disinfection/delousing chambers. In that case, if it was a delousing/disinfection chamber, why not call it an Entlausungskammer or Desinfektionskammer? Then, why have undressing rooms? Undressing for what? So the people's clothes could be deloused, like some laundry system? In a crematorium that mattogno is claiming was required to deal with typhus epidemics and lots of bodies?

Where it completely falls apart for the deniers is the following;

1 - Letter from SS Hauptsturmfuhrer Bischoff on 29th January 1943

"Krematorium II has been completed but for minor details, thanks to employing all available forces, despite enormous difficulties and freezing weather, using day and night shifts. The furnaces have been lit in the presence of Herr Chief Engineer Prufer of the firm responsible for their construction, Topf & Sons of Erfurt, and they function perfectly. Because of the frost, it has not yet been possible to remove the formwork from the ceiling of the corpse cellar. This is of no consequence, however, as the gassing cellar can be used to this end."

2 - Daily report on the construction of Kremas IV and V on 2nd March 1943;

"On Tuesday 2nd March 1943, the Riedel foreman who, two days earlier had fitted the gas-tight windows in rooms whose function was unspecified, was again working there. and sensibly deduced that he was in a “gas chamber”. His daily report mentions under point 5 (in the room with the windows): “Fußboden Aufschüttung auffülen, stampfen und Fußboden betonieren im Gasskammer / ground covered with hard fill, tamped down and floor concreted in gas chamber”.

3 - Memo from Topf & Sons engineer, Fritz Sander on 17th February 1943;

"February 17, 1943. Mr Schultze calls and advises of the following:
1). The ventilation blower number 450 for the gas cellar cannot be found there although it supposedly had been delivered by us. In the meantime,Mr Heinemann has established that the blower was in fact delivered on November 18, 1942; therefore it should be in stock there. Since, according to Mr Schultze, it is not there and is urgently required, we must immediately deliver it again and produce it in accelerated fashion."

There can be no doubt that work was undergoing to install rooms for gassing. Those rooms were not showers, bomb shelters or delousing chambers. As said before, if that is what they were for, why not use the perfectly good German words for such? All of the following are from 1944;

- Proposal list of 9 February 1944 on "after finishing his daily tours, Sch[ramme] was used for the tours due to 'special tasks', Dylewski was "significantly involved in carrying out the 'special tasks' in the camp, and was there to be on duty at day and night"
- Duty notes from August Bielisch of 20 May [Leide, NS-Verbrecher und Staatssicherheit, p. 262], Gottfried Weisse of 24 May and Gerhard Appel of 25 May 1944 [Faschismus - Getto - Massenmord, p. 373]: "I will maintain unconditional secrecy during the measures to carry out the Jewish evacuation, and also vis-à-vis my comrades"
- Telegram from Hans Kammler to the central construction office of 25 May 1944 on “for special action Hungary/program 3 horse stable barracks are immediately to be erected at the swerve bunkers” [Mattogno, STIA, p. 138]
- Memo from Werner Jothann of 17 June 1944 on “camouflage of the crematoria and security measures by erection of a second fence“ [Auschwitz 1940-1945, Volume 3 p. 183]

The was no secret action, needing camoflague in preparation for Hungarians to be showered, deloused or sheltered from bombs. The only logical, credible explanation is of work to make homicidal gas chambers that looked like showers, as described by numerous witnesses.

In all my years spent at RODOH, I have never experienced a panic and suppression of the debate like the reaction to the documentation about gassings at Birkenau. RODOH has had to a CODOH and close the debate down to protect the deniers. That is new to me.


Choose any one of those anecdotal proofs and it can be interpreted more correctly as not being proof. Don't you have something that can be interpreted as positive proof.

For example:
- Memo from Werner Jothann of 17 June 1944 on “camouflage of the crematoria and security measures by erection of a second fence“ [Auschwitz 1940-1945, Volume 3 p. 183]


There's nothing that isn't plausible in that. Does a person become a HD if he/she questions the purpose of a fence?

The was no secret action, needing camoflague in preparation for Hungarians to be showered, deloused or sheltered from bombs. The only logical, credible explanation is of work to make homicidal gas chambers that looked like showers, as described by numerous witnesses.


Really? A building would be too obviously a gas chamber and so it's construction would have to be hidden?? Surely Shirley, there is better evidence than that??

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Aug 31, 2018 5:28 pm

montgomery wrote:
Nessie wrote:A 48 hour ban for allegedly trolling RODOH and this is the actual reason why. It is a summary of various threads and debates that have been ongoing and, more than at any other time, in my long time spent at RODOH, have had deniers completely flummoxed. The evidence that has stumped RODOH is the brilliant list of documentary evidence compiled by Hans here;

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... ce-on.html

" Index of Published Evidence on Mass Extermination in Auschwitz and Auschwitz-Birkenau
Author: Hans Metzner"

The usual denier reaction to documentary evidence is to either claim the document means something else (eg Vergasungskeller is a disinfection chamber because Vergasung used elsewhere, is in connection to disinfection) or the document is forged.

Since many of the documents have been sourced from Mattogno, who is confirming he found them in archives, I presume that means there has been no claim any, let alone all are forged. Many are also from Jean-Claud Pressac, whom deneirs know has been into the actual archives. Claiming all have been forged is probably a step too far for most deniers anyway. Plus, they think that alternative explanations can be provided.

In steps Arthur Butz who claims the kremas had bomb shelters installed, Samuell Crowell and his claim they were showers and Carlo Mattogno, no they were disinfection/delousing chambers. That disagreement in itself causes problems for deniers, as each can be played off against the other.

Then, using the list of documents, each claim can be picked apart. A bomb shelter?

- Work time sheet of 28 February 1943 on “fit gas tight windows” in crematorium 4 [Pressac, Technique, p. 445]

No bomb shelter had a window fitted. Bricked up would be more credible. The bomb shelter claims is even more unlikely when you consider;

- Letter from Karl Bischoff to Topf of 6 March 1943 on “preheating cellar 1” and “undressing room” in crematorium 2 and 3 [Pressac, Technique, p. 433]
- Working time sheet from Heinrich Messing of 14 March 1943 on “undressing cellar 2” in crematorium 2 [Pressac, Technique, p. 434]

In any case, Birkenau was well out of range of bombers in March 1943. If it was a bomb shelter, why not call it a Luftschutzbunker? Point all that out and deniers go quiet. The next attempt was to claim showers. Much of that is down to one document;

- Transfer inventory of 24th June 1943 on “14 showers” and “1 gas tight door” in crematorium 3 [Pressac, Technique , p. 430]

It says showers and there is also evidence regarding drainage at the kremas. Plus, it explains the dressing rooms and even "Special" action or treatment referenced in many documents;

- Telex from Heinrich Schwarz to SS-WVHA of 5 March 1943 on “918 women and children sent to special treatment“ [Blumental, Dokumenty i materiały, volume 1, p. 109]

There is even an undressing room for krema 3 and its showers;

-Work time sheet from Heinrich Messing of 13 April 1943 on “undressing cellar” in crematorium 3 [Pressac, Technique, p. 439]

There is also a gas tight door;

-Order of 16 April 1943 on “fitting for 1 gas door” for crematorium 3 [Pressac, Technique, p. 439]

which is odd for a shower, but hey, all the kremas were getting gas tight doors fitted. The issue here is that there is one mention of showers in an inventory and that is it. There is no mention of showering and in any case, if it was a shower, why not call it a Dusche? Mattogno tries to get round the language used issue by claiming Vergasungskeller, as in;

- Letter from Karl Bischoff of 29 January 1943 on “gassing cellar” in crematorium 2 [Pressac, Technique, p. 432]

is actually a disinfection chamber because Vergas was used elsewhere in relation to the various disinfection/delousing chambers. In that case, if it was a delousing/disinfection chamber, why not call it an Entlausungskammer or Desinfektionskammer? Then, why have undressing rooms? Undressing for what? So the people's clothes could be deloused, like some laundry system? In a crematorium that mattogno is claiming was required to deal with typhus epidemics and lots of bodies?

Where it completely falls apart for the deniers is the following;

1 - Letter from SS Hauptsturmfuhrer Bischoff on 29th January 1943

"Krematorium II has been completed but for minor details, thanks to employing all available forces, despite enormous difficulties and freezing weather, using day and night shifts. The furnaces have been lit in the presence of Herr Chief Engineer Prufer of the firm responsible for their construction, Topf & Sons of Erfurt, and they function perfectly. Because of the frost, it has not yet been possible to remove the formwork from the ceiling of the corpse cellar. This is of no consequence, however, as the gassing cellar can be used to this end."

2 - Daily report on the construction of Kremas IV and V on 2nd March 1943;

"On Tuesday 2nd March 1943, the Riedel foreman who, two days earlier had fitted the gas-tight windows in rooms whose function was unspecified, was again working there. and sensibly deduced that he was in a “gas chamber”. His daily report mentions under point 5 (in the room with the windows): “Fußboden Aufschüttung auffülen, stampfen und Fußboden betonieren im Gasskammer / ground covered with hard fill, tamped down and floor concreted in gas chamber”.

3 - Memo from Topf & Sons engineer, Fritz Sander on 17th February 1943;

"February 17, 1943. Mr Schultze calls and advises of the following:
1). The ventilation blower number 450 for the gas cellar cannot be found there although it supposedly had been delivered by us. In the meantime,Mr Heinemann has established that the blower was in fact delivered on November 18, 1942; therefore it should be in stock there. Since, according to Mr Schultze, it is not there and is urgently required, we must immediately deliver it again and produce it in accelerated fashion."

There can be no doubt that work was undergoing to install rooms for gassing. Those rooms were not showers, bomb shelters or delousing chambers. As said before, if that is what they were for, why not use the perfectly good German words for such? All of the following are from 1944;

- Proposal list of 9 February 1944 on "after finishing his daily tours, Sch[ramme] was used for the tours due to 'special tasks', Dylewski was "significantly involved in carrying out the 'special tasks' in the camp, and was there to be on duty at day and night"
- Duty notes from August Bielisch of 20 May [Leide, NS-Verbrecher und Staatssicherheit, p. 262], Gottfried Weisse of 24 May and Gerhard Appel of 25 May 1944 [Faschismus - Getto - Massenmord, p. 373]: "I will maintain unconditional secrecy during the measures to carry out the Jewish evacuation, and also vis-à-vis my comrades"
- Telegram from Hans Kammler to the central construction office of 25 May 1944 on “for special action Hungary/program 3 horse stable barracks are immediately to be erected at the swerve bunkers” [Mattogno, STIA, p. 138]
- Memo from Werner Jothann of 17 June 1944 on “camouflage of the crematoria and security measures by erection of a second fence“ [Auschwitz 1940-1945, Volume 3 p. 183]

The was no secret action, needing camoflague in preparation for Hungarians to be showered, deloused or sheltered from bombs. The only logical, credible explanation is of work to make homicidal gas chambers that looked like showers, as described by numerous witnesses.

In all my years spent at RODOH, I have never experienced a panic and suppression of the debate like the reaction to the documentation about gassings at Birkenau. RODOH has had to a CODOH and close the debate down to protect the deniers. That is new to me.


Choose any one of those anecdotal proofs and it can be interpreted more correctly as not being proof. Don't you have something that can be interpreted as positive proof.

For example:
- Memo from Werner Jothann of 17 June 1944 on “camouflage of the crematoria and security measures by erection of a second fence“ [Auschwitz 1940-1945, Volume 3 p. 183]


There's nothing that isn't plausible in that. Does a person become a HD if he/she questions the purpose of a fence?

The was no secret action, needing camoflague in preparation for Hungarians to be showered, deloused or sheltered from bombs. The only logical, credible explanation is of work to make homicidal gas chambers that looked like showers, as described by numerous witnesses.


Really? A building would be too obviously a gas chamber and so it's construction would have to be hidden?? Surely Shirley, there is better evidence than that??


The point is that all these documents together, along with testimony, only points to these buildings being gas chambers. None of the other guesses deniers make stand up to scrutiny.
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby Nessie » Fri Aug 31, 2018 5:42 pm

montgomery wrote:......

Choose any one of those anecdotal proofs and it can be interpreted more correctly as not being proof. Don't you have something that can be interpreted as positive proof.


What has been presented is documentary evidence, not anedotal proof. The proof comes by checking all the documentary evidence and interpreting what together they show.

For example:
- Memo from Werner Jothann of 17 June 1944 on “camouflage of the crematoria and security measures by erection of a second fence“ [Auschwitz 1940-1945, Volume 3 p. 183]


There's nothing that isn't plausible in that. Does a person become a HD if he/she questions the purpose of a fence?


No.

The was no secret action, needing camoflague in preparation for Hungarians to be showered, deloused or sheltered from bombs. The only logical, credible explanation is of work to make homicidal gas chambers that looked like showers, as described by numerous witnesses.


Really? A building would be too obviously a gas chamber and so it's construction would have to be hidden?? Surely Shirley, there is better evidence than that??


You cannot look at each piece of evidence in isolation. You have to look at the lot as a whole. There are numerous documents gas chambers were built into the kremas, along with dressing rooms, to be kept as hidden as possible and people were sent there for special action/treatment. There is no mention of showering, delousing, disinfection nor bomb shelters.

It should now be as obvious as the nose on your face what was happening.
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby montgomery » Fri Aug 31, 2018 5:50 pm

I take the claims each on their own credibility. As I said, surely shirley, no building construction would require hiding from anybody. What has any of the other claims listed have to do with that?

It's just a plain silly claim obviously. But I didn't single it out on account of it's silliness. I just chose one at random and it happened to be the last one on the list.

If you want to be able to pick and choose which claim makes you happy then do so. Claiming a building construction needs to be hidden isn't going to be bolstered by any other claim. That's outright dishonesty.

I came to this forum with the purpose of finding information by discussing the holocaust. Why do you keep trying to push me to being a denier? You do that all the time and then you rely on the peanut gallery to prop up your bad behavior with nasty comments and spamming.

I'm expecting better behavior from you and from the others. And I'm expecting you to help put down the spamming and not keep chiming in with remarks that encourage it.

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby Nessie » Fri Aug 31, 2018 6:02 pm

montgomery wrote:I take the claims each on their own credibility. As I said, surely shirley, no building construction would require hiding from anybody. What has any of the other claims listed have to do with that?

It's just a plain silly claim obviously. But I didn't single it out on account of it's silliness. I just chose one at random and it happened to be the last one on the list.

If you want to be able to pick and choose which claim makes you happy then do so. Claiming a building construction needs to be hidden isn't going to be bolstered by any other claim. That's outright dishonesty.


A bomb shelter, disinfection facility or showering room would likely have directions posted so that prisoners and guards could find it in the kremas. A homicidal gas chamber is the one alternative which would explain the desire for secrecy. There is also the document;

- Duty notes from August Bielisch of 20 May [Leide, NS-Verbrecher und Staatssicherheit, p. 262], Gottfried Weisse of 24 May and Gerhard Appel of 25 May 1944 [Faschismus - Getto - Massenmord, p. 373]: "I will maintain unconditional secrecy during the measures to carry out the Jewish evacuation, and also vis-à-vis my comrades"

I came to this forum with the purpose of finding information by discussing the holocaust. Why do you keep trying to push me to being a denier? You do that all the time and then you rely on the peanut gallery to prop up your bad behavior with nasty comments and spamming.

I'm expecting better behavior from you and from the others. And I'm expecting you to help put down the spamming and not keep chiming in with remarks that encourage it.


My point is that you need to assess all of the evidence together. Each document is about one or other of the kremas at Birkenau. It is wrong to try and assess what was happening by chosing documents at random.
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby montgomery » Fri Aug 31, 2018 6:14 pm

Nessie wrote:
montgomery wrote:I take the claims each on their own credibility. As I said, surely shirley, no building construction would require hiding from anybody. What has any of the other claims listed have to do with that?

It's just a plain silly claim obviously. But I didn't single it out on account of it's silliness. I just chose one at random and it happened to be the last one on the list.

If you want to be able to pick and choose which claim makes you happy then do so. Claiming a building construction needs to be hidden isn't going to be bolstered by any other claim. That's outright dishonesty.


A bomb shelter, disinfection facility or showering room would likely have directions posted so that prisoners and guards could find it in the kremas. A homicidal gas chamber is the one alternative which would explain the desire for secrecy. There is also the document;

- Duty notes from August Bielisch of 20 May [Leide, NS-Verbrecher und Staatssicherheit, p. 262], Gottfried Weisse of 24 May and Gerhard Appel of 25 May 1944 [Faschismus - Getto - Massenmord, p. 373]: "I will maintain unconditional secrecy during the measures to carry out the Jewish evacuation, and also vis-à-vis my comrades"

I came to this forum with the purpose of finding information by discussing the holocaust. Why do you keep trying to push me to being a denier? You do that all the time and then you rely on the peanut gallery to prop up your bad behavior with nasty comments and spamming.

I'm expecting better behavior from you and from the others. And I'm expecting you to help put down the spamming and not keep chiming in with remarks that encourage it.


My point is that you need to assess all of the evidence together. Each document is about one or other of the kremas at Birkenau. It is wrong to try and assess what was happening by chosing documents at random.


And my point is that to claim a building construction needs to be hidden is silly nonsense. No other evidence bolsters that claim. If there is some other evidence that makes the point that construction of a building needs to be hidden, then produce it.

If evidence can't stand alone on it's own merits and believable credibility then don't ask others to accept it.

I'm not a holocaust denier but even a skeptic isn't going to buy into that whopper!

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby Nessie » Fri Aug 31, 2018 6:52 pm

montgomery wrote:......

And my point is that to claim a building construction needs to be hidden is silly nonsense.


That is not the claim. The claim is that measures were taken to camouflage and improve building security. That comes from a document.

No other evidence bolsters that claim. If there is some other evidence that makes the point that construction of a building needs to be hidden, then produce it.


Hiding the construction is not the claim. The memo came out in June 1944, right in the middle of the mass arrival of hundreds of thousands of Hungarian Jews.

If evidence can't stand alone on it's own merits and believable credibility then don't ask others to accept it.

I'm not a holocaust denier but even a skeptic isn't going to buy into that whopper!


One piece of evidence on its own often means little to nothing. It is only once all evidence is gathered does the big picture become clear.
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby Denying-History » Fri Aug 31, 2018 9:19 pm

Nessie wrote:
Denying-History wrote:Maybe this is sign....

Anyway WB to skeptic for your short stay.


Thanks. It will be a short stay because I get just as much abuse here as I do there.....

I’m not so sure about that.
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby Balmoral95 » Sat Sep 01, 2018 1:31 am

Denying-History wrote:
Nessie wrote:
Denying-History wrote:Maybe this is sign....

Anyway WB to skeptic for your short stay.


Thanks. It will be a short stay because I get just as much abuse here as I do there.....

I’m not so sure about that.


My last was a strongly worded piece of advice, not "abuse".

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby Denying-History » Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:59 am

Balmoral95 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
Nessie wrote:
Denying-History wrote:Maybe this is sign....

Anyway WB to skeptic for your short stay.


Thanks. It will be a short stay because I get just as much abuse here as I do there.....

I’m not so sure about that.


My last was a strongly worded piece of advice, not "abuse".

Mind I think Nessie is treated much better here. Regardless, remind me, how many times has Nessie been banned from Rodoh for a few days? Once? Twice? And how many times from here?

The “abuse” I remember was everyone being confused by some of his/her posts defending Eric Hunts theory of where prisoners entered into the bath and disinfection at Majdanek.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Sep 01, 2018 3:19 am

Denying-History wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
Nessie wrote:
Denying-History wrote:Maybe this is sign....

Anyway WB to skeptic for your short stay.


Thanks. It will be a short stay because I get just as much abuse here as I do there.....

I’m not so sure about that.


My last was a strongly worded piece of advice, not "abuse".

Mind I think Nessie is treated much better here. Regardless, remind me, how many times has Nessie been banned from Rodoh for a few days? Once? Twice? And how many times from here?

The “abuse” I remember was everyone being confused by some of his/her posts defending Eric Hunts theory of where prisoners entered into the bath and disinfection at Majdanek.


I think if Nessie stayed the treatment would be better.
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The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby Balmoral95 » Sat Sep 01, 2018 4:02 am

True. Parking it he without the constant noise-to-signal ratio from a pack of clowns should be more attractive to anyone.

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby Nessie » Sat Sep 01, 2018 7:53 am

Rather than discuss what got me suspended from RODOH and how to improve upon something that has rattled deniers and can be used to persuade others denial is wrong, you have decided to make this personal. OK.

Balmoral95 wrote:Pretty much all of that has been available for years, discussed there previously, fisked (to the best of their rather substandard abilities).

What's new here? Fish banned you for a day or two? It's unfair? What's unfair, you remind them of stuff that's inconvenient. Lather, rinse, repeat. If you think you're some noble warrior fighting alone for truth and justice, your not.


OK, I am not. I also did not think that. What I do is insignificant compared to those such as at HDOT in fighting denial.

You're more analogous to an exterminator failed trying to contain roaches.


Nice. I know they will never be exterminated. I do think posting evidence of the Holocaust and showing they cannot evidence their belief is a means to deter those who are thinking of becoming deniers. Pointing out the biggest flaw in denial, no evidence of where the Jews went, has had success in changing some minds.

So what, say you? If you extended your time away from there you would kill the petty, faux dramatics, give them nothing to talk about other than news squibs and their ignorant interpretations, idiotic spin, and general laziness. Fish would have nothing to "moderate". Your absence could kill it, more or less, so, you going to man-up or pussy out and go back?


Man up? My absence would result in the end of RODOH? Really! It would become a free, unchallenged talking shop where Holocaust believers fear to tread because we have all been defeated.

I imagine you will if for no other reason than you're a "true believer" just like them. Disenthrall yourself.


Now I am a suspect denier? Well, thanks for that "advice" as you claimed it was. Of course, it was not advice. That was a lie. It was disrespectful, abusive and nasty.

You don't take the debate to them. You prefer to debate from here. That is your choice. I do not have any issue with it. I do think it would be better to take the debate to them, but that is just my opinion. I would certainly not compare you to a incompetent pest controller, suggest you think you are heroic, tell you to grow a pair and then suggest you deny the Holocaust.
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby Ian Hazard » Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:03 am

Nessie wrote:A 48 hour ban for allegedly trolling RODOH and this is the actual reason why. It is a summary of various threads and debates that have been ongoing and, more than at any other time, in my long time spent at RODOH, have had deniers completely flummoxed. The evidence that has stumped RODOH is the brilliant list of documentary evidence compiled by Hans here;



You are lying again, Nessie. There is no allegedly about it. You did engage in trolling and were quite rightly given a short ban by Depth Check. Your original documents topic was locked temporarily because it had degenerated into name calling. You then immediately created a new thread on the same topic in order to {!#%@} stir. The original thread was cleaned up and reopened yesterday.

I do not believe the deniers are flummoxed at all. It is you who is engaging in wishful thinking regarding the Birkenau Kremas.

Depth Check wrote:
This topic is on temporary lockdown due to trolling. I will clean it up at a later when I have more time.

I suggest those of you wishing to feed/bait the trolls do so only In Siberian Exile in future.




https://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=3390&start=40#p130290

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby Ian Hazard » Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:12 am

Casual visitors to this forum may be interested to learn that Nessie is a self confessed liar and troll who deliberately sets out to provoke his opponents.


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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby Denying-History » Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:22 am

Awe, Ian's back for whatever reason. Not sure why Nessie supposedly needs to provoke them into doing it, it seems they get around to it on their own. With Berg and Traynor one really should only need to flip a few pages of search history for racial slurs for a number of non-white racial groups and they will find a number of such posts without being "provoked" into them.

"k0nsl" also has a good history of such statements as well. Such as this gem from his old website:
Let us make a new beginning today so that we can annihilate the Jew

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2006/04/just-another-poor-persecuted.html
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby Nessie » Sat Sep 01, 2018 11:40 am

Ian Hazard wrote:
Nessie wrote:A 48 hour ban for allegedly trolling RODOH and this is the actual reason why. It is a summary of various threads and debates that have been ongoing and, more than at any other time, in my long time spent at RODOH, have had deniers completely flummoxed. The evidence that has stumped RODOH is the brilliant list of documentary evidence compiled by Hans here;



You are lying again, Nessie. There is no allegedly about it. You did engage in trolling and were quite rightly given a short ban by Depth Check.


Maybe you could show the alleged trolling, quotes, links and explanations please. Depth Chevk has failed to identify trolling when I asked him.

Your original documents topic was locked temporarily because it had degenerated into name calling.


It had been trolled primarily by Huntinger, who then blamed me for getting it locked, after he had asked for it to be locked down

https://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php? ... 10#p130298

You then immediately created a new thread on the same topic in order to {!#%@} stir.


No, the first thread was specifically to show documents referred to gas chambers being built in the kremas and there was no evidence to back up the various denier claims of work to build bomb shelters, showers or disinfection chambers. The issue is then, what were the gas chambers for? Not that thread was able to progress due to it being locked.

The second thread was how documentary evidence alone can prove the existence of homicidal gas chambers.

The original thread was cleaned up and reopened yesterday.

I do not believe the deniers are flummoxed at all. It is you who is engaging in wishful thinking regarding the Birkenau Kremas.

Depth Check wrote:
This topic is on temporary lockdown due to trolling. I will clean it up at a later when I have more time.

I suggest those of you wishing to feed/bait the trolls do so only In Siberian Exile in future.


https://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=3390&start=40#p130290


This shows how Huntinger trolled the thread and I tried to continue with the topic in hand, showing evidence, asking questions and requesting others not to troll the thread;

https://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php? ... 20#p130236

It was others who trolled the thread, read hwo they avoid the topic and repeatedly request I am ignored etc. Then I was the one suspended. That shows how panicked the deniers were by the evidence. That is why CODOH tactics were used.

The documents showing gas chambers were built inside the kremas, for a special action/treatment of Jewish prisoners that needed secrecy, with no reference to bomb shelters, showering or disinfection is proof of homicidal gassing.
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby Nessie » Sat Sep 01, 2018 11:42 am

Ian Hazard wrote:Casual visitors to this forum may be interested to learn that Nessie is a self confessed liar and troll who deliberately sets out to provoke his opponents.


Image


A throw away remark whereby no denier has ever shown evidence of me actually provoking an anti-semitic rant. I don't need to. Deniers do it without any provocation.
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby montgomery » Sat Sep 01, 2018 3:53 pm

Just a bunch of spamming and personal attacks here today. I'll wait until it dies down before making any more comments on hiding building construction with a fence.
Disgusting!

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby Denying-History » Sat Sep 01, 2018 5:49 pm

montgomery wrote:Just a bunch of spamming and personal attacks here today. I'll wait until it dies down before making any more comments on hiding building construction with a fence.
Disgusting!

Learn how a damn forum works.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby montgomery » Sat Sep 01, 2018 6:00 pm

Denying-History wrote:
montgomery wrote:Just a bunch of spamming and personal attacks here today. I'll wait until it dies down before making any more comments on hiding building construction with a fence.
Disgusting!

Learn how a damn forum works.


I'm quite aware of how forums work and I've taken part on many different forums since 99. This would be the forum that allows by far the most spamming and personal attacks than any other i've encountered with maybe the exception of the libertarians' forum.

However, as I have already said, I'm not completely opposed to the spamming and bad behavior because it's indicative of the flawed personalities of those who like to take part in such abusive nonsense. Interesting that you're one of the worst offenders, save the prince of pesonal attacks, balmoral. Back on topic now please. And thanks!

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby Nessie » Sat Sep 01, 2018 6:16 pm

montgomery wrote:Just a bunch of spamming and personal attacks here today. I'll wait until it dies down before making any more comments on hiding building construction with a fence.
Disgusting!


The memo about the fence was not when any known construction was taking place. It was at the height of the Hungarian arrivals. The memo was about keeping people form not seeing what was happening and about improving security, which logically is in relation to the large numbers of people arriving at the camp.
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby Denying-History » Sat Sep 01, 2018 6:31 pm

montgomery wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
montgomery wrote:Just a bunch of spamming and personal attacks here today. I'll wait until it dies down before making any more comments on hiding building construction with a fence.
Disgusting!

Learn how a damn forum works.


I'm quite aware of how forums work and I've taken part on many different forums since 99. This would be the forum that allows by far the most spamming and personal attacks than any other i've encountered with maybe the exception of the libertarians' forum.

However, as I have already said, I'm not completely opposed to the spamming and bad behavior because it's indicative of the flawed personalities of those who like to take part in such abusive nonsense. Interesting that you're one of the worst offenders, save the prince of pesonal attacks, balmoral. Back on topic now please. And thanks!


They must have all been dead. Lol

I also didn’t ask for your life story.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby Balmoral95 » Sun Sep 02, 2018 5:01 am

Ian Hazard wrote:Casual visitors to this forum may be interested to learn that Nessie is a self confessed liar and troll who deliberately sets out to provoke his opponents.


Image



Based on that post? You need a facking brain enema...

Nessie may be a fool for posting in your sewer, but is basically a decent person who called it honestly it for what it is.

You know it and I know it, Traynor. And so does everyone else.

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Sep 02, 2018 5:25 am

Plus, "provoking them into anti-Semitic rants" may well mean "posting about the history of the Holocaust." Or "making a comment about any random thing." Just showing up may "provoke" them.
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby Balmoral95 » Sun Sep 02, 2018 5:36 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Plus, "provoking them into anti-Semitic rants" may well mean "posting about the history of the Holocaust." Or "making a comment about any random thing." Their anti-Semitic rant trigger is always ready to fire.


Indeed. Smith has deluded himself now to believe he gave it all a good shot... but it was always a rigged game, just lesser so back in the day.... he's a liar and a smarmy one. And Traynor /Fish/Depth Check/Ian speaks for itself.

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby montgomery » Sun Sep 02, 2018 4:14 pm

Nessie wrote:
montgomery wrote:Just a bunch of spamming and personal attacks here today. I'll wait until it dies down before making any more comments on hiding building construction with a fence.
Disgusting!


The memo about the fence was not when any known construction was taking place. It was at the height of the Hungarian arrivals. The memo was about keeping people form not seeing what was happening and about improving security, which logically is in relation to the large numbers of people arriving at the camp.


Thanks for that clarification. I also notice that you don't take part in the childish spamming that all the others are wrapped up in. Or at least I haven't seen you at it yet.

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby Nessie » Sun Sep 02, 2018 7:40 pm

I would much rather discuss the evidence.
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby scrmbldggs » Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:00 pm

Best of luck.
.

Lard, save me from your followers.

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:32 pm

I'd much rather discuss the investigations boy-genius has done on those who were banned on this forum, what he learns keeping a close eye on Balmoral, and what he figures out about what makes D-H and Balmoral tick. I think that's why boy-genius is here, for trolling, to affect pompous airs, and to make a fool of himself doing bad imitations of being serious. And a bit of comedy gold for people posting here.
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby montgomery » Mon Sep 03, 2018 1:38 am

Nessie wrote:I would much rather discuss the evidence.


So I see! But it's not consistent with one who promotes the holocaust nearly fulltime the way stat.mech. does. And you get the same kind of flak I do for taking a rational and polite approach to the questions.

Don't mistake my comments directed at you to mean that i'm looking for an ally in you. That would compromise your efforts here and only lead to trouble for you down the road.

As for me and my schtick, I have to remain a non-denier and make sure that nothing I say can be construed as denial. That's the only way decent and rational people can survive on this section of the forum. And it's driving them bats--t crazy! I suspect that you are using the same basic method and that's why you're getting it full force from them too.

Right now I'm concentrating on determining why their lives are all about this holocaust topic. What makes them tick? What is each of their schticks. Stat.mech is easy to figure out IMO, and so is the lowest lifeform on the forum, balmoral.

The others, I'll get around to asking them each in time. I see no reason why they wouldn't be proud of their motives? Except if they refuse to say, and then they're not!

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon Sep 03, 2018 1:47 am

tl;dr .... why don't you just discuss the evidence?
.

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby montgomery » Mon Sep 03, 2018 1:58 am

scrmbldggs wrote:tl;dr .... why don't you just discuss the evidence?


Because all the evidence can't be trusted as the truth. There has been a revision of the evidence that's been going on for at least the last 70 years, and it's not finished yet. If you want an example to work with then consider whether justice was done at Nuremberg. Or in that context, consider how the U.S. took in S.S. officers that were useful to the space program cause after the war. S.S. officers who were just as 'guilty' as some of those who were executed.

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Sep 03, 2018 1:59 am

montgomery wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:tl;dr .... why don't you just discuss the evidence?


Because all the evidence can't be trusted as the truth. There has been a revision of the evidence that's been going on for at least the last 70 years, and it's not finished yet. If you want an example to work with then consider whether justice was done at Nuremberg. Or in that context, consider how the U.S. took in S.S. officers that were useful to the space program cause after the war. S.S. officers who were just as 'guilty' as some of those who were executed.


I’d say Justice was done at Nuremberg. If nothing else it was better than shooting everyone without a trial.
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Postby montgomery » Mon Sep 03, 2018 2:07 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
montgomery wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:tl;dr .... why don't you just discuss the evidence?


Because all the evidence can't be trusted as the truth. There has been a revision of the evidence that's been going on for at least the last 70 years, and it's not finished yet. If you want an example to work with then consider whether justice was done at Nuremberg. Or in that context, consider how the U.S. took in S.S. officers that were useful to the space program cause after the war. S.S. officers who were just as 'guilty' as some of those who were executed.


I’d say Justice was done at Nuremberg. If nothing else it was better than shooting everyone without a trial.


In many cases there was no real distinction. It was a bogus kangaroo court and the reason I say that is because the death penalty is primitive and can't be called justice. And then there was Von Braun who was kept a secret at the time. Heh.


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