What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

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Sergey_Romanov
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What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:13 pm

Let's make a sourced up-to-date list.

Here's a useful guide as a start.

http://www.proyectos.cchs.csic.es/trans ... ial-crimes


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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Jul 08, 2018 4:05 pm

Sergey_Romanov wrote:Let's make a sourced up-to-date list.

Here's a useful guide as a start.

http://www.proyectos.cchs.csic.es/trans ... ial-crimes



That’s funny, had the same thought. I opened a topic with that website.

I deleted my topic as a duplicate so we can just use yours.
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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Jul 08, 2018 4:10 pm

This is interesting from Yad Vashem:
https://www.yadvashem.org/holocaust/holocaust-antisemitism/holocaust-denial-laws.html

Of particular interest is this passage:

State Prosecutor Bernhardt Hussler urged a Stuttgart state court to fine Juergen Kamm, owner of a mail order company that sells anti-Nazi t-shirts and badges. 6,000 Euros [$7,610] for selling merchandise that carry the swastikas and other Nazi symbols through his mail-order business. "Swastikas shouldn't be displayed in such a striking way," Hussler said, adding that he hopes the outcome of this trial will bring about a complete ban of Nazi symbols in public spaces. Defense attorney Michael Wolff argued that Kamm was using the symbols to fight against neo-Nazis and other far-right extremists. Kamm explained: "It should not be illegal to use the symbols against Nazis."

The prosecutor disagreed. He argued that German law strictly forbids the use of symbols associated with the Nazi regime, no matter in what context they are used. He contended that it is irrelevant what the intent of the wearer is, and also that it did not matter that the symbol had been altered. The symbol should simply not be used publicly.
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Jul 08, 2018 4:29 pm

A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Postby Denying-History » Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:31 am

Switzerland arrests under hate speech laws for Armenian-Genocide denial:
https://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/10/worl ... swiss.html

France's now revoked Armenian genocide denial law:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-16677986

https://www.dailysabah.com/europe/2017/ ... expression

Justin McCarthy on the matter of these laws and Turkeys law used to suppress discussion on the Armenian genocide in their country:

"But the main thing that bothers me is that Turkey has a law that should not be there, and this is a law that says you should not defame the Turkish government, this is a silly law, they should get rid of it, (be)cause it allows every small time prosecutor to bring a case that shouldn't be, that shouldn't happen. But I want to make sure that we understand that Turkey is not the only country that has a law. For instance, I can't go to France. I can't go to France, why? ¸— and speak — because France has a law against my saying that there was not an Armenian genocide, or more precisely saying it was a mutual genocide. I can't go to Switzerland, because Switzerland has laws against that, and Switzerland puts people in jail. Now, it is definitely wrong for Turkey, for Turkey to stop people from saying what they want to say, especially professors who have a duty to profess. But it is {?} definitely wrong for countries that we revere, like France and Switzerland, to do much worse; because in Turkey, indeed, there are people who deny the Armenian genocide and people who support the Armenian genocide; scholars who have a definite conversation. But in countries like France, if you open your mouth, you end up sued or in jail."
https://youtu.be/dOo3QlxWZ5Q?t=710

Proposal to extend denial laws of the holocaust according to EU law to communist crimes:
"Foreign ministers from Lithuania, Latvia, Bulgaria, Hungary, Romania and the Czech Republic said communist crimes "should be treated according to the same standards" as those of Nazi regimes, notably in those countries with Holocaust denial laws."
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/dec/21/european-commission-communist-crimes-nazism

I believe I found the actual documents from the Czech Republic and Hungry a few months ago. Will have to check, if I cannot find them will just ask Richard Evens. Supposedly these two states have extended their denial laws to Communist crimes against humanity as well.
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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:06 pm

Duplicate
Last edited by Jeffk 1970 on Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:09 pm

A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Postby Denying-History » Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:53 pm

Rowandan genocide denial is also a crime in Rowanda. Forgot to post this:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/jan/29/rwanda-journalists-genocide-denial-appeal

Frances “anti-genocide denial law” no idea if it was passed:

http://www.newtimes.co.rw/section/read/208468
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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jul 31, 2018 1:22 pm

Off topic but related: The case described in this article, "Düsseldorf neo-Nazi bomb attack defendant acquitted") knocks a bit of a hole in denier "understanding" of Germany, its legal system, and its approach to neo-Nazis and anti-Semitism. Here, a neo-Nazi defendant, Ralf S., is acquitted by a Düsseldorf court on "12 counts of attempted murder for a bombing targeting Jewish immigrants at a Düsseldorf train station in July 2000" because "there was insufficient evidence for a conviction."
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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Postby Monster » Tue Jul 31, 2018 4:02 pm

Sergey_Romanov wrote:What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

What you wrote is:

What countries criminalize denying things? Except the Holocaust. That can be denied.
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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Sep 08, 2018 3:45 pm

Bump
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Postby Nessie » Sat Sep 08, 2018 4:42 pm

I was in Latvia a few months ago and the Riga Ghetto Museum had a better and more instructive display charting the Armenian Genocide than it did the Holocaust in Latvia. It did look like it was the most up to date part of the museum, as it was the newest display. It was not as if the details of the Holocaust in Latvia were lacking. It was outside and not as well laid out. I asked at the museum about getting to Rumbula and visiting the site there, but they had no idea how I would get there and seemed puzzled I would want to go. It is only about 7 miles from the museum. I didn't go in the end.

The city bus tour, which went past the museum did not even mention it, which was odd. The tour did explain how anti-Semitism was historic in Latvia and for a long time Jews were not allowed to live in Riga and had to leave the city each night for their settlement just outside.

The Museum of the Occupation of Latvia dealt with the Holocaust as part of the Nazi occupation. It pointed out that Latvians had little choice but to cooperate with the Soviets in 1939, then the Nazis in 1941, then the Soviets again in 1944. Latvians fought for both sides against each other depending on was draughted into which army. Families were split.

Denial is not illegal in Latvia. I have no idea how strong denial is there. But from what I saw at the museums there is an acceptance of Latvia's role in the Holocaust, but with the message, it was not Latvia's fault and there have been other genocides.
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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Postby montgomery » Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:24 pm

Nessie wrote:I was in Latvia a few months ago and the Riga Ghetto Museum had a better and more instructive display charting the Armenian Genocide than it did the Holocaust in Latvia. It did look like it was the most up to date part of the museum, as it was the newest display. It was not as if the details of the Holocaust in Latvia were lacking. It was outside and not as well laid out. I asked at the museum about getting to Rumbula and visiting the site there, but they had no idea how I would get there and seemed puzzled I would want to go. It is only about 7 miles from the museum. I didn't go in the end.

The city bus tour, which went past the museum did not even mention it, which was odd. The tour did explain how anti-Semitism was historic in Latvia and for a long time Jews were not allowed to live in Riga and had to leave the city each night for their settlement just outside.

The Museum of the Occupation of Latvia dealt with the Holocaust as part of the Nazi occupation. It pointed out that Latvians had little choice but to cooperate with the Soviets in 1939, then the Nazis in 1941, then the Soviets again in 1944. Latvians fought for both sides against each other depending on was draughted into which army. Families were split.

Denial is not illegal in Latvia. I have no idea how strong denial is there. But from what I saw at the museums there is an acceptance of Latvia's role in the Holocaust, but with the message, it was not Latvia's fault and there have been other genocides.


It's an interesting story in that the "Armenain genocide" is in competition with the holocaust in importance. But it's not addressing the question posed by this thread title. I haven't read the entire thread but I suspect there is none. It's only the holocaust discussion that is criminalized and that is obviously very wrong.

This results in prolonging the debate. I'm wondering if that's the desired effect Zionism is pursuing. It certainly keeps the memories alive, but it keeps the debates alive too.

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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:43 pm

montgomery wrote:
I haven't read the entire thread but I suspect there is none. It's only the holocaust discussion that is criminalized and that is obviously very wrong.



Maybe before making that comment you should indeed read the whole thread.
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The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Postby montgomery » Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:48 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
montgomery wrote:
I haven't read the entire thread but I suspect there is none. It's only the holocaust discussion that is criminalized and that is obviously very wrong.



Maybe before making that comment you should indeed read the whole thread.


Maybe you can tell me what has been discovered and we can get right into the discussion. That is, providing you haven't gone over to the dark side. I'm not here to tolerate any more of your crap. You'll either be polite with me or we won't be discussing anything.

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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:58 pm

montgomery wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
montgomery wrote:
I haven't read the entire thread but I suspect there is none. It's only the holocaust discussion that is criminalized and that is obviously very wrong.



Maybe before making that comment you should indeed read the whole thread.


Maybe you can tell me what has been discovered and we can get right into the discussion. That is, providing you haven't gone over to the dark side. I'm not here to tolerate any more of your crap. You'll either be polite with me or we won't be discussing anything.


Was anything about my comment impolite? I invited you to read the rest of the thread.

Maybe you should take your own advice. I’m trying to figure out why I should tolerate any of your crap.
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Sep 08, 2018 6:16 pm

A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Postby Nessie » Sat Sep 08, 2018 6:53 pm

montgomery wrote:.....

It's an interesting story in that the "Armenain genocide" is in competition with the holocaust in importance.


Which it is not. The issue is that since the Jewish community is richer than the Armenian (and Rwandan) and more spread cross the world, it is the Holocaust that gets the most attention and there has been a criticism it appears to the only genocide known to many.

But it's not addressing the question posed by this thread title. I haven't read the entire thread but I suspect there is none. It's only the holocaust discussion that is criminalized and that is obviously very wrong.

This results in prolonging the debate. I'm wondering if that's the desired effect Zionism is pursuing. It certainly keeps the memories alive, but it keeps the debates alive too.


I do not think the thread was merely meant to be a list. It is a discussion about criminalising Holocaust denial and I think it is interesting to look at a country which has not criminalised it, why it has not and if it should.

There is limited denial in the UK, we have a good tradition of free speech, the effects of the Holocaust here were minimal (some deported from the Channel Islands) and we do not need any laws.
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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:26 pm

>> It's only the holocaust discussion that is criminalized

In the first place, this is a bizarre statement which Nessie has quoted; there are laws against certain kinds of speech in many countries. In the second place, if the writer means that the only genocide denial that's criminalized is denial of the Holocaust - which he should have said but didn't - he is flat out wrong.

Examples: Hungary in 2010 changed existing legislation to outlaw and "punish those, who deny the genocides committed by national socialist or communist systems, or deny other facts of deeds against humanity". Lithuania outlaws the public "condoning [of] international crimes, crimes of the USSR or Nazi Germany against the Republic of Lithuania and her inhabitants, denial or belittling of such crimes." Poland has a law against denial of Nazi crimes, communist crimes, and "other crimes constituting crimes against peace, crimes against humanity or war crimes." According to the map linked to in the very first post in this thread, the Czech Republic and Bulgaria also prohibit denial of Communist crimes. Also, in the thread laws against denial of the Armenian and Rwandan genocides are noted - but you'd have to actually read the thread to now this. Some countries have prohibitions of denial of genocide, without specifics named.

We are now getting posts from the ignorant and the lazy who yap away like noxious, shrieking toy dogs imagining they're cute.
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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Postby montgomery » Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:59 pm

I see that this thread has now brought out some of the information that has been asked for. It's not going to be ignored!

Unfortunately it can't stop at that but has to degenerate into the childish and meanspirited insults that are the usual from this nasty individual.

No further comment until that behavior is improved upon.

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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Sep 08, 2018 9:02 pm

To answer Nessie, one of the things I noted when I first started this was the obsession that deniers have with HD laws. I looked into it and found that many countries have laws criminalizing many different types of denial, not just Holocaust denial.

I look at it like this:
1) Laws do not determine truth, what they do is sanction behavior.
2) There are good laws and bad laws. I don’t have to agree with them. The countries that criminalize this behavior don’t care what I think.
3) Freedom of speech, freedom of expression, whatever you want to call it, has different meanings in many cultures and Europe has a different tradition of “freedom of speech” than the United States or Britain.
4) There is no such thing as true “freedom of speech.”

I disagree with these laws. I take issue with governments meddling in history because they usually get it all wrong. I also don’t want avenues of research shut down over misunderstandings. It never bothers me when people are stupid or have differing opinions than I do. Where I draw the line is overt threats or trying to incite violence by using agendas like HD to foster hatred against Jews. Saying the Holocaust didn’t happen is OK even if it’s ignorant or hurts someone’s feelings. Saying the Holocaust didn’t happen so we need to punish the Jews for lying is not OK.
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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Postby montgomery » Sat Sep 08, 2018 9:11 pm

There really is no complete freedom of speech and the exceptions can be discovered by rational and decent discussion. Someon yelling "fire" in a crowded theater isn't the end of the discussion but it proves the initial point. Saying the holocaust didn't happen can't be construed to hurting the Jews any more than another discussion that unduly condemns Muslims. Americans have no difficulty understanding the latter. The former on the Jews seems to somewhat cloud the issue.

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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Sep 08, 2018 9:12 pm

To sorta finish my thought....

Sergey opened this thread the same time I considered opening it as a place to park information about various laws that criminalize denial of all sort. I wanted a place to find them as needed and also to discuss them if others wanted to.
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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Sep 08, 2018 9:18 pm

montgomery wrote:There really is no complete freedom of speech and the exceptions can be discovered by rational and decent discussion. Someon yelling "fire" in a crowded theater isn't the end of the discussion but it proves the initial point. Saying the holocaust didn't happen can't be construed to hurting the Jews any more than another discussion that unduly condemns Muslims. Americans have no difficulty understanding the latter. The former on the Jews seems to somewhat cloud the issue.


I looked at these laws originally having a more specific purpose, mainly to prevent the spread of racist or hate speech that would encourage harm. Unfortunately they’ve now morphed into punishing someone for denying a historical event.

I also understand (to a point) laws denying Communist crimes like the Holodomor in the Ukraine or general crimes in Eastern Europe. These countries suffered and to a degree it is a matter of national pride. The problem is these laws can be used to shut down oppositional views by claiming the person,, group of people or political party is denying Communist crimes. See the article above on Cambodia.
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The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Sep 08, 2018 9:31 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:Unfortunately they’ve now morphed into punishing someone for denying a historical event.

To what extent? In which countries? And how did this transition take place?
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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Sep 08, 2018 9:37 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:Unfortunately they’ve now morphed into punishing someone for denying a historical event.

To what extent? In which countries? And how did this transition take place?


Good grief, are you really wanting me to think that hard on a Saturday?????
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“NKVD.”
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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Sep 08, 2018 9:42 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:Unfortunately they’ve now morphed into punishing someone for denying a historical event.

To what extent? In which countries? And how did this transition take place?


Good grief, are you really wanting me to think that hard on a Saturday?????

No, I thought you were referring to something you had in mind.

To explain a bit: I don't see the laws against denial of Communist crimes as more understandable than those against Holocaust denial; in the case of denial, and you know where I stand, I don't think it is so easy to disentangle the hate aspect from the "denying a historical event aspect," especially given what we see and know of those who deny the Holocaust. Other than the new Polish law, I can't think of any law that might target, or has targeted, serious researchers - or any prosecutions of legit scholars. So I wondered about your comment.
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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Sep 08, 2018 10:33 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:Unfortunately they’ve now morphed into punishing someone for denying a historical event.

To what extent? In which countries? And how did this transition take place?


Good grief, are you really wanting me to think that hard on a Saturday?????

No, I thought you were referring to something you had in mind.

To explain a bit: I don't see the laws against denial of Communist crimes as more understandable than those against Holocaust denial; in the case of denial, and you know where I stand, I don't think it is so easy to disentangle the hate aspect from the "denying a historical event aspect," especially given what we see and know of those who deny the Holocaust. Other than the new Polish law, I can't think of any law that might target, or has targeted, serious researchers - or any prosecutions of legit scholars. So I wondered about your comment.




I was thinking of someone like this silly fellow:
Hans-Jürgen Witzsch

I needed to dig back through to remember him, someone brought him up some time ago (if I remember correctly someone from FG’s blog, I think maybe hermie).

In essence a German court convicted him for writing letters in 1994 and 1995 protesting the upcoming amendment of Penal Code of incitement of racial hatred. They convicted him under a Penal Code of disparaging the deceased (§ 189 Disparagement of the Memory of Deceased Persons). Witzsch wrote letters denying the existence of gas chambers and unfortunately for him one of the letters wound up in possession of a prosecutor who’s mother died in a concentration camp. The court sentenced him to four months in prison and then suspended the sentence.

Now, granted, that’s not a serious scholar but then no serious scholar we know denies the existence of a gas chamber. I don’t believe any German prosecutor would seriously look at anything we write about as denial. I agree that the new Polish law is a bigger threat than any German law.

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Re: How hate speech laws embolden holocaust denial
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For example, in Germany and Belgian, you would be considered as a potential denier as i recall you saying that your own estimate of the Holocaust victims as close to 4,8 millions Jews. Well this, my friend, is illegal in Belgium...It is 6 millions! Though this number does not appear directly in the text of the law, the Belgian legislation added the offence of " minimization" which implicitly target any contestation of the 6 million Jews figure.

http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=483970#p483970

I don’t know if that’s the case because I can’t find a direct reference to it. That to me is ridiculous but as you say I’ve never seen anyone prosecuted like that in Belgium.

Damnit you did want me to do some deep thinking on a Saturday.... :lol:
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The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Postby Denying-History » Sat Sep 08, 2018 11:18 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:For example, in Germany and Belgian, you would be considered as a potential denier as i recall you saying that your own estimate of the Holocaust victims as close to 4,8 millions Jews. Well this, my friend, is illegal in Belgium...It is 6 millions! Though this number does not appear directly in the text of the law, the Belgian legislation added the offence of " minimization" which implicitly target any contestation of the 6 million Jews figure.

http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=483970#p483970

I don’t know if that’s the case because I can’t find a direct reference to it. That to me is ridiculous but as you say I’ve never seen anyone prosecuted like that in Belgium.

Damnit you did want me to do some deep thinking on a Saturday.... :lol:

That was directed at the other Jeff. :)
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Sep 08, 2018 11:25 pm

Denying-History wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:For example, in Germany and Belgian, you would be considered as a potential denier as i recall you saying that your own estimate of the Holocaust victims as close to 4,8 millions Jews. Well this, my friend, is illegal in Belgium...It is 6 millions! Though this number does not appear directly in the text of the law, the Belgian legislation added the offence of " minimization" which implicitly target any contestation of the 6 million Jews figure.

http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=483970#p483970

I don’t know if that’s the case because I can’t find a direct reference to it. That to me is ridiculous but as you say I’ve never seen anyone prosecuted like that in Belgium.

Damnit you did want me to do some deep thinking on a Saturday.... :lol:

That was directed at the other Jeff. :)


I know, I wasn’t a member in 2015.
:D
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Sep 08, 2018 11:26 pm

Also my estimate is higher than the other Jeff’s.
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:30 am

One case from the '90s doesn't make a morphing trend today, though. Do we know - it is now Sunday - how many prosecutions have occurred under these laws, for violation of either the Holocaust or Communist crimes provisions? I've seen some lists, with well known deniers whose "work" would fit into the "hate" intention but nothing systematic and comprehensive.
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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Sep 09, 2018 6:21 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:One case from the '90s doesn't make a morphing trend today, though. Do we know - it is now Sunday - how many prosecutions have occurred under these laws, for violation of either the Holocaust or Communist crimes provisions? I've seen some lists, with well known deniers whose "work" would fit into the "hate" intention but nothing systematic and comprehensive.


Not a denier but a case where we have unintended consequences of such laws:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.jpost.com/International/Court-acquits-German-who-used-anti-Nazi-symbols/amp

In essence he was fined for using Nazi symbols even though he clearly used them to protest the German right.
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Postby VFX » Sun Sep 09, 2018 6:24 am

Good thread topic. The Russians for the most part do not accept the Shoah as the holocaust, they consider the Holocaust as the death of 30 million of their soldiers and civilians. Denying the Russian Holocaust has severe penalties. For most Russians the Shoah is a Zionist inspired myth for their own gain.
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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Sep 09, 2018 6:28 am

Again, random errors in applying a law - many times people are wrongly charged under various laws, many times people are also acquitted - doesn't add up to a trend; that's why I wondered about systematic and comprehensive analysis of charges and cases. Also, that case is clearly related to the "hate" aspect, not the history aspect, so it doesn't support the morphing you mentioned.
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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Postby VFX » Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:32 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Again, random errors in applying a law - many times people are wrongly charged under various laws, many times people are also acquitted - doesn't add up to a trend; that's why I wondered about systematic and comprehensive analysis of charges and cases. Also, that case is clearly related to the "hate" aspect, not the history aspect, so it doesn't support the morphing you mentioned.

This wording is mindless drivel and says nothing. When there is suppression of free speech, the drivel comes from government bureaucrats which sound just like the person I quoted and replying to. I really doubt if serious investigation and reporting of political criminality is hate speech. Seems like a criminal conspiracy to me.
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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 12, 2018 10:27 am

VFX wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Again, random errors in applying a law - many times people are wrongly charged under various laws, many times people are also acquitted - doesn't add up to a trend; that's why I wondered about systematic and comprehensive analysis of charges and cases. Also, that case is clearly related to the "hate" aspect, not the history aspect, so it doesn't support the morphing you mentioned.

This wording is mindless drivel and says nothing.

It says that the examples Jeffk chose don't support the case he is making, which is that a new trend is occurring. Once again, you confuse your inability to understand plain text with deficiencies of others. This is called "projection."

VFX wrote:When there is suppression of free speech, the drivel comes from government bureaucrats which sound just like the person I quoted and replying to. I really doubt if serious investigation and reporting of political criminality is hate speech. Seems like a criminal conspiracy to me.

First, recall, Jeffk and I were discussing, before you so rudely and obtusely interrupted, a new trend that Jeffk thinks is occurring, a morphing in application of the laws from targeting hate speech to targeting denying of events.

Second, again with your reading problems (hint: you seem to react and post without processing what others have written, not just me, but generally, thus posting extraneous and stupid sounding responses): nowhere did I, as a putative bureaucrat or whatever, express support for legislation suppressing free expression. Clearly, you don't know my views on this new question you raise - suppression of free speech in general.
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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Sep 16, 2018 7:47 am

I posted about this in another thread this morning after a denier made the odd assertion/criticism that his side doesn't have to legislate to keep the story real.

Litvak & Weberman in From Empathy to Denial: Arab Responses to the Holocaust briefly discuss censorship of Holocaust related content in Arab countries. They discuss the nearly complete absence of content on these difficult topics in two Lebanese textbooks they studied (p 191) along with Egypt's banning of a number of related movies, including Sophie's Choice; Schindler's List and Life Is Beautiful, the authors say, were banned in all Arab countries. Explanations of this censorship have included common anti-Semitic themes such as Jewish control of the media and the influence of Jewish money (as VFX would say, shekels) along with HD themes such as the supposed neglect of other victim groups and alleged Zionist machinations and control. (pp 180-183)

Of course, these instances of censorship are not on account of having to legislate to keep the story real, protect truth, or other arguments along that line but for other reasons. By denier logic, however, these acts have to taken as occurring out of fear of the truth of the genocide.
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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Postby montgomery » Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:34 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:I posted about this in another thread this morning after a denier made the odd assertion/criticism that his side doesn't have to legislate to keep the story real.

Litvak & Weberman in From Empathy to Denial: Arab Responses to the Holocaust briefly discuss censorship of Holocaust related content in Arab countries. They discuss the nearly complete absence of content on these difficult topics in two Lebanese textbooks they studied (p 191) along with Egypt's banning of a number of related movies, including Sophie's Choice; Schindler's List and Life Is Beautiful, the authors say, were banned in all Arab countries. Explanations of this censorship have included common anti-Semitic themes such as Jewish control of the media and the influence of Jewish money (as VFX would say, shekels) along with HD themes such as the supposed neglect of other victim groups and alleged Zionist machinations and control. (pp 180-183)

Of course, these instances of censorship are not on account of having to legislate to keep the story real, protect truth, or other arguments along that line but for other reasons. By denier logic, however, these acts have to taken as occurring out of fear of the truth of the genocide.


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