iwh's blog

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BRoI
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iwh's blog

Postby BRoI » Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:46 am

iwh on the bombing of Dresden wrote:
Let’s have a look at what they and Mr Wear’s editors say…
“Dresden was filled with refugees, and the majority of its population was comprised of the elderly, women, mothers with children, and orphans…”

Actually according to German historians like Gotz Bergander, himself stationed in Dresden on that fateful night, Dresden was not crammed full with refugees. The streets were clear and there was no forced billeting. The city itself was not fully occupied either as most of the men were away fighting. Any refugees in the city were easily absorbed.


What are your sources for such assertions?

Bergander said the opposite in this account:

In the following report, eyewitness Götz Bergander recalls the events of February 13, 1945.

The city was already filled with refugees; everything was a dull, war gray. The train stations were bursting with people. I had already participated in some so-called refugee aid there. We received refugees from Silesia and tried to get them and their baggage out of the city as quickly as possible. They were taken to old dance halls, ballrooms, and cinemas in the suburbs, but some always remained in the city center—those who'd just arrived and had not yet been accommodated.

According to certain city documents, Dresden had approximately 640,000 inhabitants, and I'd estimate that there were perhaps a million people in the city, so there were about 300,000 refugees. There were no bunkers at all—not one public air raid shelter. At Dresden's main train station, luggage storage rooms and basements had been set up as shelters.

Source of English translation: Johannes Steinhoff, Peter Pechel, and Dennis Showalter, Voices from the Third Reich. Washington, DC: Regnery Gateway, 1989, pp. 227-31.
http://germanhistorydocs.ghi-dc.org/pdf/eng/English99.pdf
"I believe that when the history of the [Great] war comes to be impartially written, the two greatest results will be the establishment of the national Jewish home and the creation of the League of Nations. The two are not really disconnected. They represent the two great ideas for which we fought and by which we conquered—the ideas of nationalism and internationalism."
- Robert Cecil, 1st Viscount Cecil of Chelwood, March 1923.

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Re: iwh's blog

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Mar 15, 2018 2:56 am

I thought Dresden was filled with refugees. I also thought the biggest controversy was the number regarding the dead.
Don’t make me come down there!!!!
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Re: iwh's blog

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Mar 15, 2018 3:40 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:I thought Dresden was filled with refugees. I also thought the biggest controversy was the number regarding the dead.

I think there's some controversy about the lower-end death estimates (not the claims of Tagesbefehl No. 47 IIRC) but significant controversy about Allied targeting - which gets at Allied goals and related controversies. You know where I stand on the latter cluster of issues.
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: iwh's blog

Postby iwh » Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:01 am

It appears the Rabbit has a problem with the word "crammed". I never stated there were no refugees in Dresden. I said that the city was not CRAMMED with refugees.

As to my source....

"Gotz Bergander likewise confirmed from his own memory that at no point did Dresden become CRAMMED with refugees. He himself had been called to help place refugees in accommodation, an apart from those stragglers around the station and the influxes which came in each train, he remembered most being somehow quartered. Scarcely any, in other words, had been sleeping in the open....

...The Dresden historian Friedrich Reichert went one step further. He quoted witnesses who attested that no refugees were billeted in Dresden houses and that no billeting took place in the parks and squares. He then pointed out that Dresden population was not at its prewar levesl because of the numbers of men away on active service. Not 630,000 but 570,000 were resident in the city at the time."


"Telling Lies About Hitler" Richard Evans, p 182.

If the Rabbit has problems with the source, perhaps he might like to take it up with Mr Evans.
For a debunking of new boy on the block John Wear see:

https://wearswarts.wordpress.com

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Re: iwh's blog

Postby iwh » Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:05 am

What's up Rabbit...did I upset you in a former life?
For a debunking of new boy on the block John Wear see:

https://wearswarts.wordpress.com

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Re: iwh's blog

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:48 pm

iwh wrote:What's up Rabbit...did I upset you in a former life?


The rabbit sometimes gets a wild “hare” up his ass. I think he’s tripping on a psychotropic carrot.
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Re: iwh's blog

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Mar 15, 2018 3:46 pm

@iwh, for god's sake, please keep avoiding grammatical errors and typos :)
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: iwh's blog

Postby iwh » Thu Mar 15, 2018 3:47 pm

I know.... Someone might notice.

Sorry...
For a debunking of new boy on the block John Wear see:

https://wearswarts.wordpress.com

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Re: iwh's blog

Postby iwh » Thu Mar 15, 2018 3:50 pm

...or perhaps I did it on purpose...

:twisted:
For a debunking of new boy on the block John Wear see:

https://wearswarts.wordpress.com

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Re: iwh's blog

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:04 pm

Irony part II, last Friday I came across a book on Dresden. I thought about buying it and didn’t.
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Re: iwh's blog

Postby iwh » Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:07 pm

I just wish I had the German to read the full Dresden historians' report.
For a debunking of new boy on the block John Wear see:

https://wearswarts.wordpress.com

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Re: iwh's blog

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:17 pm

This peaked my interest, I think I’ll run by and grab that book on Dresden if I get a chance.
Don’t make me come down there!!!!
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Re: iwh's blog

Postby Balmoral95 » Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:31 pm


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Re: iwh's blog

Postby iwh » Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:37 pm

Balmoral95 wrote:https://www.amazon.com/Dresden-Tuesday-February-13-1945/dp/0060006773/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1521130828&sr=1-2&keywords=dresden


Got it...especially p 264 and 265
For a debunking of new boy on the block John Wear see:

https://wearswarts.wordpress.com

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Re: iwh's blog

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Sat Mar 17, 2018 4:50 pm

http://www.dresden.de/media/pdf/infobla ... V1_14a.pdf

Ausnahmslos alle Darstellungen der Dresdner Katastrophe verweisen auf eine Besonderheit der Situation
in der Stadt: Die an der Ostfront unaufhaltsam vorrückende Rote Armee veranlasste Millionen Deutsche
aus Ostpreußen, Pommern, Schlesien und weiteren Gebieten zur Flucht. Ein Teil dieser Flüchtlinge befand
sich am Abend des 13. Februar 1945 in Dresden – in Flüchtlingsunterkünften, in Privatwohnungen oder
auf den Bahnhöfen – und geriet so in die Luftangriffe. Die deutschen Propagandisten griffen dies rasch auf:
Bereits Ende Februar 1945 wurden in der Presse vor allem der neutralen Staaten die als außergewöhnlich
hoch berichteten Menschenverluste in Dresden mit der Menge an Flüchtlingen in der Stadt erklärt.95

Seitdem ist in zahllosen Publikationen und Diskussionen argumentiert worden, dass in Dresden eine sehr hohe Zahl an Flüchtlingen ums Leben gekommen sei. Ihr Tod konnte, so die populären Erzählbilder, nirgends registriert werden. Die Zahl getöteter Flüchtlinge betrage Zehntausende und mehr – oder würde nie festgestellt werden können.

Für die Kommission stellten diese Argumentationen einen zentralen Untersuchungsgegenstand dar. Zunächst sollte versucht werden, die Zahl der Flüchtlinge zu ermitteln, die sich am Abend des 13. Februar
1945 in Dresden aufhielten. Danach war zu prüfen, ob und in welchem Umfang getötete Flüchtlinge in
Dresden nachweisbar sind. Schließlich sollte die Größenordnung dieser Gruppe unter den Dresdner Luftkriegstoten ermittelt werden.

...

Die Zahl der Flüchtlinge in der Angriffsnacht in Dresden konnte daher nicht ermittelt werden. Die Kommission folgt jedoch den bereits publizierten Forschungsergebnissen von Kommissionsmitgliedern, die Darstellungen von mehreren Hunderttausend Flüchtlingen widerlegen und stattdessen eine Größenordnung zwischen »einigen Zehntausend«97 bis »ungefähr 200.000«98 schätzen.

...


Die Untersuchung der personenbezogenen Informationen zu Dresdner Luftkriegstoten hat keine Hinweise darauf erbracht, dass getötete Flüchtlinge nicht mit dem gleichen behördlichen Anspruch auf Ordnungsmäßigkeit geborgen, registriert und bestattet worden sind, wie er ebenso für alle anderen Toten – KZ-Häftlinge ausgenommen – galt. Ihre Zahl ist also mit Sicherheit in der Zahl der ermittelten Dresdner Luftkriegstoten enthalten. Bereits aus dieser Perspektive können – eingedenk der Ergebnisse der neuerlichen Ermittlung der Totenzahlen – Flüchtlinge nicht zu Zehn- oder gar Hunderttausenden in Dresden umgekommen sein.


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