Polish Law thread.

Holocaust denial and related subjects.
Im_Not_Creative_Enough
Poster
Posts: 243
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2016 7:32 pm

Polish Law thread.

Postby Im_Not_Creative_Enough » Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:05 pm

I feel this whole case is worthy of it's own disscuassion.

If you don't what I'm talking about - there's a law proposal in Polish parliment that suggets to outlaw all public expressions that shows the Polish people as being reaponsable to the murders of Jews on Polish soil. Mostly it's targeting the missused term "Polish death camps". It already caused a bit on uproar in Israel.

I have an opinion on this deal, but I'm going to write about when I'll have more time.
The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far.

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 20899
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Polish Law thread.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:11 pm

starting here and following posts, for some links and discussion: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/fo ... tcount=533
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

User avatar
NathanC
Regular Poster
Posts: 565
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:19 am

Re: Polish Law thread.

Postby NathanC » Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:30 am

I’m not setting foot in ISF again, not with their ridiculous “moderation” policies.

1) Holocaust denial laws don’t prove anything, and can’t be used to “prove” an evil Jewish conspiracy. Most of the countries that have them, especially in Eastern Europe, practice HD themselves. This law is just the latest example. Sure, Poland prosecutes Holocaust deniers; they also stripped Jan Gross of an award because he drew attention to Pogroms carried out by Poles against Jews during and after WW2. Right now, they’ve made it more difficult for more people to talk about the very real involvement of Poles in such massacres, including the very real seizure of Jewish property Postwar, which occurred with the consent and even encouragement of the Soviet installed government (“Muh Zydokommuna” T_T) HD laws are meaningless if the governments that enforce them don’t actually abide by them.

2) I’ve begun to see the valid reasons behind HD laws (the main one being that deniers are proven frauds, and should indeed be prosecuted under fraud), but this is an example of the slippery slope coming true; of too much power being vested in a government and them misusing that power. PL might go the way of Lithuania, another country that has HD laws on paper but practices HD themselves.

User avatar
Denying-History
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1889
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:01 pm

Re: Polish Law thread.

Postby Denying-History » Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:17 am

The law itself is excessive, I'm confused as to what correlation this has with denial laws though.

Regardless it seems appropriate to refer to the Bug River camps & Majdanek based on geographic location during the war. Auschwitz and Chelmno seem less appropriate considering they were in lands appropriated into the Reich not the general government.
« Yes, that may surprise some people, including my colleagues. But have no illusions. I never compelled anybody to work for me, just as we didn't compel the German people. They themselves gave us the job to do. Why did you work with me? Now, you'll have your little throat cut...but the earth will shake when we leave the scene... »
- Joseph Goebbels

Sergey_Romanov
Regular Poster
Posts: 514
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 10:15 am

Re: Polish Law thread.

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:22 am

That's why I'm against HD laws.

Another example would be countries making it illegal to question that Holodomor constituted a genocide (since even Robert Conquest admitted that intent to exterminate Ukrainians is not proven, he could be prosecuted under such a law). As much as I like {!#%@} to suffer, such laws are based on politics, not history. It wouldn't matter if a scholarly consensus on something doesn't exist as long as a political consensus exists.

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 20899
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Polish Law thread.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:50 am

If this law is implemented in Poland, as I wrote in the execrable ISF forum, Jan Gross, Barbara Engleking, Jan Grabowksi, and (judging from his recent book) Omar Bartov among many, many others, including survivors who are still alive, would be legally liable for attempting to come to terms with unpleasant evidence.

To add to the complexity, the postwar Polish and Soviet governments cleansed the region as well, the Soviets cleansing Ukraine of Poles (the Jews were by and large eliminated already) and the Polish authorities, with Soviet support, cleansing Poland of Ukrainians. If we can discuss some of this, but not all of it, quickly it becomes dishonest, one-dimensional, triumphalist, and highly politicized. As does arguing that Poles responded in a uniform way to the Holocaust.
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

Sergey_Romanov
Regular Poster
Posts: 514
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 10:15 am

Re: Polish Law thread.

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:00 pm

I don't think that pointing out collaboration of individual Poles would be illegal under this law so I don't think that as long as historians and survivors don't engage in racist generalizations against Poles (which they shouldn't do with or without the law) they have a theoretical liability. The danger is rather in how this law could be abused despite being theoretically inapplicable.

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 20899
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Polish Law thread.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:30 pm

I don't know, I maybe should have written "could," not "would," but I wrote "could" based on the background and context - the reverberations from Neighbors and related work, which opponents have called ideological (not "scientific") and a calumny against Poland, are not absent. IIRC the most recent spark was Obama's speech in 2011 or 2012, but the nationalist impulses behind this seem clear to me.

How "Polish nation" and "diminish" are defined, and what the facts are determined to be, and by whom, loom large. I read the proposed law as national image protection, which would draw a very wide net: “whoever accuses, publicly and against the facts, the Polish nation, or the Polish state, of being responsible or complicit in the Nazi crimes committed by the Third German Reich . . . or other crimes against peace and humanity, or war crimes, or otherwise grossly diminishes the actual perpetrators thereof, shall be subject to a fine or a penalty of imprisonment of up to three years.”

Also, whether Gross and others, in writing about Jedwabne, the Treblnka gold rush, or Kielce, are implying more negative views about the Polish nation than the government allows, or I myself might have, or are speaking only of certain individuals, would have to be, assuming complaints about this work continue, adjudicated under the law. Leaving aside likely outcomes of such cases, this is a good example of why I favor more expansive speech rights. The proposed law as written is troubling when it comes to critical speech.

So I do lean toward a negative interpretation - stronger than concern for hypothetical misuse - of what's intended, given the background and the party promoting the legislationAt the same time, world opinion seems to be having impact.
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 20899
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Polish Law thread.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:39 am

You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

User avatar
Aaron Richards
Poster
Posts: 244
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 9:03 am

Re: Polish Law thread.

Postby Aaron Richards » Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:47 am

Sergey_Romanov wrote:I don't think that pointing out collaboration of individual Poles would be illegal under this law so I don't think that as long as historians and survivors don't engage in racist generalizations against Poles (which they shouldn't do with or without the law) they have a theoretical liability.


The irony is, this law has been instituted by a government that does exactly that:

"Hey, everybody! Always remember they were GERMAN death camps!", insofar as even saying "not Nazi, but GERMAN".

Certain powers in Poland really want to drive home the point that everything* bad that happened in their country during this time period should be attributed to the GERMANS and only the GERMANS. :roll: I.e. not Austrians, not Ukrainians, not the plethora of other Axis members involved in the atrocities...

*except Katyn and the like, of course. Poles dislike Russians as well. The Polish nation today seems somewhat like a traumatized child that has had both parents ripped away from it: his abusive father left long ago (Germany) and his abusive mother (Soviet Union) somewhat recently, now as the nation struggles for its post-communist identity, it looks further back into the past, to the time of the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth; Polan stronk; winged hussars and when it saved Vienna from the Ottoman Turks, which is why anti-Islam sentiment is such a healing and bonding thing for neo-nationalists in Poland today.

It's only a matter of time until anti-semitism creeps into their minds again. You should see some of the sh!t Poles spew when they try playing their victim card, fueled by resentment that Jews are remembered as the #1 Holocaust victims, and not Poles. I'm paraphrasing Poles saying things like "Holocaust was primarily a crime against Poland, 3 million Polish Jews and 3 million Polish Catholics died, but Hollywood only remembers Jews", "remember WW2 started when Poland was invaded", "Soviets invaded us too, so we really are the biggest victims unlike just the Jews you've been taught in school" etc. Their mentality is sickening. Keep in mind the things they tried to pull off in the past, like having their pope, John Paul II, bless a giant cross mounted in Auschwitz, and have an order of catholic nuns take residence in the former theater building. Later on these things were removed, but it was another example of Poland trying to "claim" Auschwitz as a center of THEIR catholic suffering rather than a center of primarily Jewish extermination.
Please subscribe to my YouTube channel "Holocaust Documents", where I fight back the sea of antisemitism & conspiracy theories that has taken over its comment section: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCTBlSX ... Un5jIhWm7g
I compile rebuttals to popular holocaust denier canards here: http://imgur.com/a/725A7

Im_Not_Creative_Enough
Poster
Posts: 243
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2016 7:32 pm

Re: Polish Law thread.

Postby Im_Not_Creative_Enough » Fri Feb 02, 2018 10:17 am

I gave my two cents on the entire thing in a Youtube video on the subject that was filled with lots of deniers in the comment section. I'll keep you updated.

Image
The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far.

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 8K Posts
Posts: 8213
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: Polish Law thread.

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Feb 02, 2018 3:46 pm

Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:I gave my two cents on the entire thing in a Youtube video on the subject that was filled with lots of deniers in the comment section. I'll keep you updated.

Image


I don’t think many here will agree with you. The problem with government regulating speech like that is the possibility of abuse. It’s better to have hurt feelings and deniers being obnoxious than the government suppressing freedom of expression....or even the right to be grammatically wrong.
When my son had his barmitzvah, and his wedding, there was no family whatsoever -that’s the way the second and third generation feel the Holocaust, they miss their family. My son hasn’t experienced a family life –having uncles, aunts, grandmothers, grandfathers. There is just that hole.
Edith Baneth
Savage Continent

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 20899
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Polish Law thread.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Feb 03, 2018 5:32 pm

The Times of Israel reports, as tensions escalate following the passage of the proposed law by the Polish Senate, that
. . . there has been an eruption of anti-Israel and anti-Jewish comments online and in the media, including in state media, which is tightly controlled by the right-wing ruling Law and Justice party.

The director of the state-run television station TVP 2, Marcin Wolski, even went so far as to say Monday on air that the Nazi death camps should actually be called Jewish. “Who managed the crematoria there?” he asked — a reference to the fact that death camp prisoners, usually Jews, were forced to help dispose of gas chamber victims.

Wolski was joined on his show by a right-wing commentator, Rafal Ziemkiewicz, who only a day earlier had used an extremely derogatory term to refer to Jews on Twitter. The comment was later removed.

I supposed Wolski imagined he was being both clever and historically accurate in his claim: he was neither unless coerced laborers can be called managers.
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

User avatar
Aaron Richards
Poster
Posts: 244
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 9:03 am

Re: Polish Law thread.

Postby Aaron Richards » Sun Feb 04, 2018 1:55 pm

Im pretty sure there have been long discussions here and in other forums about at least it being a fact that the Sonderkommando are indeed a grey zone when it comes to ethics and morality debates. The way Wolski formulated his comment is despicable and completely out of whack, but I think there is a little bit of room for debate regarding the culpability of the SK compared to the average jewish inmate working in other parts of the camp. An extremely inflammatory and controversial observation to make, is that the Nazis could never have reached the numbers they did during the Final Solution in the camps, were it not for the SK "aiding" them in the disposal of the bodies (and therefore making the gas chambers ready for another use). It's a really stupid argument, I know, but if something along the lines of Gandhi's Non-cooperation movement had been implemented in the camps, to the point where the SS couldn't even find others to replace the ones 'striking', they would have had a tougher time carrying out the FS with just Ukrainian HiWi/Trawnikis. That being said, I believe the language barrier between Jews of various countries in the same camp prevented much communication, not to mention that gathering and talking was prohibited by the German authorities in the first place.
Please subscribe to my YouTube channel "Holocaust Documents", where I fight back the sea of antisemitism & conspiracy theories that has taken over its comment section: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCTBlSX ... Un5jIhWm7g
I compile rebuttals to popular holocaust denier canards here: http://imgur.com/a/725A7

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 20899
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Polish Law thread.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:35 pm

Aaron Richards wrote:Im pretty sure there have been long discussions here and in other forums about at least it being a fact that the Sonderkommando are indeed a grey zone when it comes to ethics and morality debates. The way Wolski formulated his comment is despicable and completely out of whack, but I think there is a little bit of room for debate regarding the culpability of the SK compared to the average jewish inmate working in other parts of the camp.

I disagree, as noted (at excruciating length) here. IMO one needs to look at how individuals in coerced situations behaved rather than, when judging individuals in such situations, focusing on what was coerced at threat of death. Those responsible for what was coerced are not the people coerced.

But I agree that Wolski's statement was calculated to be infammatory, presenting the slave laborers as "managers."
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 20899
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Polish Law thread.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:20 pm

You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 8K Posts
Posts: 8213
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: Polish Law thread.

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Feb 08, 2018 10:32 pm

Poland’s President signed this bill:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2018/02/07/europe/poland-holcaust-bill-signed-intl/index.html

There’s a bit more to it than just his signature but I have no doubt it will become law.
When my son had his barmitzvah, and his wedding, there was no family whatsoever -that’s the way the second and third generation feel the Holocaust, they miss their family. My son hasn’t experienced a family life –having uncles, aunts, grandmothers, grandfathers. There is just that hole.
Edith Baneth
Savage Continent

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 20899
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Polish Law thread.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:57 am

You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

User avatar
Upton_O_Goode
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3767
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:15 am
Custom Title: Roger Willco Overnout
Location: The Land Formerly Known as Pangea

Re: Polish Law thread.

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Sat Feb 10, 2018 12:11 pm

Perhaps an explanation of Polish sensibilities on this issue. They were victims of TWO totalitarian regimes:

Ewa Thompson wrote: To Polish Christians it has become increasingly clear that events of World War II need to be viewed not only in moral terms but also in terms of interests. It has to be said, bluntly, that while the interests of Jews and Catholics were the same concerning the Nazis, namely, the Nazis were a sworn enemy, in regard to the Soviets these interests did not coincide. For the Jews, the Soviet Union was a possible refuge from the horrors of Nazi occupation. For all too many Jews, the Soviet Union was a land of promise. A significant part of the secular Jewish community in Poland greeted the Soviets as friends and collaborated with them in every way until the mid-1950s, thus contributing mightily to the destruction of Polish economy, culture, and population. Similar things could be said about the Polish-Soviet war in 1919, when mendacious gossip of "pogroms in Poland" was spread by Marxist and non-Marxist Jews in the West, to prevent the creation of a non-Marxist independent Polish state (Norman Davies, God's Playground, vol. 2, Columbia 1984, 262-3). In contrast, for Polish Christians the Soviet Union was, from the beginning, the country of the Gulag, a sworn enemy bent on destroying the Polish identity.


(Emphasis added. I know that the reviewer's family was among those heroic Poles who sheltered Jews from the Nazis. But this book review strikes me as being a little TOO blunt, and it definitely borders on racial stereotyping. And it skirts around the issue of Polish collaboration with the Nazis, while emphasizing Jewish collaboration with the Russians.)
"I once befriended two little girls from Estonia, who had narrowly escaped death from starvation in a famine. They lived in my family, and of course had plenty to eat. But they spent all their leisure visiting neighbouring farms and stealing potatoes, which they hoarded. Rockefeller, who in his infancy had experienced great poverty, spent his adult life in a similar manner."

--Bertrand Russell, Nobel Prize Acceptance Speech

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 20899
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Polish Law thread.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:11 pm

FWIW Lukas, not among my favorite writers, published this on Jan Gross's Neighbors (it begins, "Selling the Holocaust is a gigantic enterprise that has less to do with preserving the memory of Jewish victims than exploiting the Holocaust for political, ideological and economic purposes. The consequence is that history has become a major casualty."). I do wonder if Ms Thompson believes that the mounting Polish anti-Semitism of the 1930s, which increasingly defined Jews apart from Poland and pushed separation of Jews from their neighbors - and which included exploration of schemes like Madagascar resettlement, was also in Poland's interest, and whether this rising anti-Semitism was in the interest of Polish Jews.
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

User avatar
Upton_O_Goode
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3767
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:15 am
Custom Title: Roger Willco Overnout
Location: The Land Formerly Known as Pangea

Re: Polish Law thread.

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Sat Feb 10, 2018 6:27 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:FWIW Lukas, not among my favorite writers, published this on Jan Gross's Neighbors (it begins, "Selling the Holocaust is a gigantic enterprise that has less to do with preserving the memory of Jewish victims than exploiting the Holocaust for political, ideological and economic purposes. The consequence is that history has become a major casualty."). I do wonder if Ms Thompson believes that the mounting Polish anti-Semitism of the 1930s, which increasingly defined Jews apart from Poland and pushed separation of Jews from their neighbors - and which included exploration of schemes like Madagascar resettlement, was also in Poland's interest, and whether this rising anti-Semitism was in the interest of Polish Jews.


Yeah, that seems to be a familiar pattern in some quarters: rail against denying or minimizing the Holocaust, because those things play right into the hands of the "Zionist Occupation Government." I've seen several articles that take that position. The authors are sane enough about the past, but rather delusional about the present. Israel has friends in Washington, but it's not in any position to dictate American policy, and talk of ZOG is simply insane.
"I once befriended two little girls from Estonia, who had narrowly escaped death from starvation in a famine. They lived in my family, and of course had plenty to eat. But they spent all their leisure visiting neighbouring farms and stealing potatoes, which they hoarded. Rockefeller, who in his infancy had experienced great poverty, spent his adult life in a similar manner."

--Bertrand Russell, Nobel Prize Acceptance Speech

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 8K Posts
Posts: 8213
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: Polish Law thread.

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Feb 10, 2018 6:56 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote:Perhaps an explanation of Polish sensibilities on this issue. They were victims of TWO totalitarian regimes:

Ewa Thompson wrote: To Polish Christians it has become increasingly clear that events of World War II need to be viewed not only in moral terms but also in terms of interests. It has to be said, bluntly, that while the interests of Jews and Catholics were the same concerning the Nazis, namely, the Nazis were a sworn enemy, in regard to the Soviets these interests did not coincide. For the Jews, the Soviet Union was a possible refuge from the horrors of Nazi occupation. For all too many Jews, the Soviet Union was a land of promise. A significant part of the secular Jewish community in Poland greeted the Soviets as friends and collaborated with them in every way until the mid-1950s, thus contributing mightily to the destruction of Polish economy, culture, and population. Similar things could be said about the Polish-Soviet war in 1919, when mendacious gossip of "pogroms in Poland" was spread by Marxist and non-Marxist Jews in the West, to prevent the creation of a non-Marxist independent Polish state (Norman Davies, God's Playground, vol. 2, Columbia 1984, 262-3). In contrast, for Polish Christians the Soviet Union was, from the beginning, the country of the Gulag, a sworn enemy bent on destroying the Polish identity.


(Emphasis added. I know that the reviewer's family was among those heroic Poles who sheltered Jews from the Nazis. But this book review strikes me as being a little TOO blunt, and it definitely borders on racial stereotyping. And it skirts around the issue of Polish collaboration with the Nazis, while emphasizing Jewish collaboration with the Russians.)


Well, the reality is that some Jews did initially benefit from the Red Army occupying Eastern Poland.....but so did Ukrainians and Belorussians. The Jews also experienced some atrocities when the Germans occupied the area so naturally they were glad to see them go.

But Jews suffered along with everyone else when the Soviets began seizing businesses and private property along with starting the collectivization of agricultural. The Soviets deported Jewish business owners and other Jews who refused the internal passport. So, in the end the Jews didn’t benefit in any meaningful way from the Soviet occupation.
When my son had his barmitzvah, and his wedding, there was no family whatsoever -that’s the way the second and third generation feel the Holocaust, they miss their family. My son hasn’t experienced a family life –having uncles, aunts, grandmothers, grandfathers. There is just that hole.
Edith Baneth
Savage Continent

User avatar
Kleon_I XYZ Contagion
Poster
Posts: 459
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:06 pm
Contact:

Re: Polish Law thread.

Postby Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:24 pm

These days I came across an admirable nice 49 years old Polish artist and writer, who gives his own struggles for keeping the memory and against non-forgetting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKAUgFy7TaY

When he realized what the real History of his country was, thanks to the book 'Neighbors' for the 1941 burning killings in Jedwabne, Rafal Betlejewski build this same wooden barn and sei it on fire, while he traveled all over Poland making art installations like 'I've missed you, Jew'

He seems to me, not so popular in his country, more or less like people like me in Greece called 'ethno-nihilist' (like a greek synonym to 'traitor, un-patriotic' or worst), only because he speaks about the past. Kids aren't responsible for the stains of their parents, unless they start to deny them.

He says in a piece, «Is it possible that the antonym of 'forgetting' is not 'remembering', but justice?», and answers like this:

«Every other minute someone asks me whether I think Poles are responsible for Holocaust.
Well, I think it is not me, who should answer your questions or doubts. It is the scholars and scientists who devote their careers to the subject and carry on detailed studies. I refer you to their work. They should be your teachers: Alina Cala, Barbara Engelking, Jacek Leociak, Jan Grabowski, and a fundamental work on anti-Semitism in Poland Joanna Tokarska Bakir and her Legendy o krwi. The literature is immense.
There are also numerous first hand accounts from the surviving Jews, such as a masterpiece of non-fiction literature Spowiedz from Calel Perechodnik, or Zaglada domu Trinczerow, from my deceased friend Tadeusz Markiel.
You may want to start from my conversation with Baruch Bergman, survivor from Warsaw Ghetto.
It is a hard read, and difficult learning. It will bring you pain, as every awakening to the truth does, but it will bring you out of denial. Thank you.»
According to experts and scholars, the 10 stages of every genocide are
Classification Symbolization Discrimination Dehumanization Organization Polarization Preparation Persecution Extermination
... and finally the 10th stage:
Denial
http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocide/t ... ocide.html

XYZ Contagion (‘Because the truth is contagious‘), an investigative/research political and historical website, deals also with the Srebrenica Genocide
https://xyzcontagion.wordpress.com/about/#English

User avatar
Upton_O_Goode
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3767
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:15 am
Custom Title: Roger Willco Overnout
Location: The Land Formerly Known as Pangea

Re: Polish Law thread.

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:00 am

Kleon_I XYZ Contagion wrote:These days I came across an admirable nice 49 years old Polish artist and writer, who gives his own struggles for keeping the memory and against non-forgetting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKAUgFy7TaY

When he realized what the real History of his country was, thanks to the book 'Neighbors' for the 1941 burning killings in Jedwabne, Rafal Betlejewski build this same wooden barn and sei it on fire, while he traveled all over Poland making art installations like 'I've missed you, Jew'

He seems to me, not so popular in his country, more or less like people like me in Greece called 'ethno-nihilist' (like a greek synonym to 'traitor, un-patriotic' or worst), only because he speaks about the past. Kids aren't responsible for the stains of their parents, unless they start to deny them.

He says in a piece, «Is it possible that the antonym of 'forgetting' is not 'remembering', but justice?», and answers like this:

«Every other minute someone asks me whether I think Poles are responsible for Holocaust.
Well, I think it is not me, who should answer your questions or doubts. It is the scholars and scientists who devote their careers to the subject and carry on detailed studies. I refer you to their work. They should be your teachers: Alina Cala, Barbara Engelking, Jacek Leociak, Jan Grabowski, and a fundamental work on anti-Semitism in Poland Joanna Tokarska Bakir and her Legendy o krwi. The literature is immense.
There are also numerous first hand accounts from the surviving Jews, such as a masterpiece of non-fiction literature Spowiedz from Calel Perechodnik, or Zaglada domu Trinczerow, from my deceased friend Tadeusz Markiel.
You may want to start from my conversation with Baruch Bergman, survivor from Warsaw Ghetto.
It is a hard read, and difficult learning. It will bring you pain, as every awakening to the truth does, but it will bring you out of denial. Thank you.»


Bravo, Kleon! Well done.
"I once befriended two little girls from Estonia, who had narrowly escaped death from starvation in a famine. They lived in my family, and of course had plenty to eat. But they spent all their leisure visiting neighbouring farms and stealing potatoes, which they hoarded. Rockefeller, who in his infancy had experienced great poverty, spent his adult life in a similar manner."

--Bertrand Russell, Nobel Prize Acceptance Speech

User avatar
Upton_O_Goode
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3767
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:15 am
Custom Title: Roger Willco Overnout
Location: The Land Formerly Known as Pangea

Re: Polish Law thread.

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:26 am

The kind of memory that one has is a clue to one's character, I think. We all have our biases, and they are easier to see in others than in ourselves, I think.

While I generally admire Solzhenitsyn, one of his last books, Two Hundred Years Together (Двести Лет Вместе), attempts to summarize the history of two hundred years of Jewish/Russian interaction. Solzhenitsyn meant well, and I'm sure he thought he was "reaching out" to the Jews by doing this. He pointed out that Russia first acquired significant numbers of Jews when it acquired Poland in the eighteenth century. He thought the Tsar had benevolent intentions toward them, but in fact (as he says) the Jews were often caught between the Polish nobility and the Polish peasants. It was their unenviable task to be the stewards of the great Polish estates, and consequently, they inherited the hatred of the peasants for their masters, while the real authors of misery were actually Polish. I'm reminded of the situation described in Dickens's novel Our Mutual Friend, in which the ruthless money-lender makes a poor Jew serve as his front man in grinding his clients into the dirt (until the front man finally rebels). With all that being said, Solzhenitsyn tries to present the tsarist government in the best possible light, going beyond what the evidence will support, or at least so I think. Here's a little of what he said in regard to the 1895 Odessa pogrom, after summarizing the casualties from several sources ("45 Jews killed, 86 seriously wounded, 1500 homes and businesses looted or destroyed according to the Book of Russian Jewry; Bickerman claims 53 killed, but this may include some Gentiles. The New Jewish Encyclopedia (1988) says 49 killed, 586 wounded, 1500 Jewish homes and shops destroyed"):

Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn wrote: Korolenko concludes: "To be sure, this is based on the testimony of Jews, but there is no reason to doubt their reliability. What difference does it make to Jews how they are killed? What reason would they have for inventing these details?" Indeed, what interest would the relatives of Bentsion Galantier, who was hit over the head, have in adding that the murderers also drove nails into his corpse? They didn't invent such fantasies. Was it not already sufficiently painful for the relatives of the accountant Nisenzon that they would add that he had been dunked in a puddle before he was murdered? It is enough. They did not invent anything of the kind.

But, far away from these events, these horrors were not enough for the leaders of public opinion. Despite all the human tragedies and woes, despite all the carnage, their first thought was of how best to strike at tsarist power. And they resorted to inflammatory exaggerations. To retrace the steps through spiritual feelings, to sort through the fabrications of the following months and even years, would be to, oneself, diminish the tragedy.


That's a sample. I might add that I have heard very similar things more recently from my Russian friends and colleagues, attempting to exculpate the Serbs for what they did in Bosnia. It was, according to my friends, all an attempt to make scapegoats out of the Slavs.
"I once befriended two little girls from Estonia, who had narrowly escaped death from starvation in a famine. They lived in my family, and of course had plenty to eat. But they spent all their leisure visiting neighbouring farms and stealing potatoes, which they hoarded. Rockefeller, who in his infancy had experienced great poverty, spent his adult life in a similar manner."

--Bertrand Russell, Nobel Prize Acceptance Speech

User avatar
Upton_O_Goode
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3767
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:15 am
Custom Title: Roger Willco Overnout
Location: The Land Formerly Known as Pangea

Re: Polish Law thread.

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:04 pm

I need to look again at Solzhenitsyn's text, quoted in the previous post. Solzhenitsyn may have been writing about a pogrom in Kiev, not Odessa, although of course the exact location doesn't matter now. I just want to be accurate.
"I once befriended two little girls from Estonia, who had narrowly escaped death from starvation in a famine. They lived in my family, and of course had plenty to eat. But they spent all their leisure visiting neighbouring farms and stealing potatoes, which they hoarded. Rockefeller, who in his infancy had experienced great poverty, spent his adult life in a similar manner."

--Bertrand Russell, Nobel Prize Acceptance Speech

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 20899
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Polish Law thread.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:03 am

Polish premier Mateusz Morawiecki: “It’s extremely important to first understand that, of course, it’s not going to be punishable, not going to be seen as criminal to say that there were Polish perpetrators — as there were Jewish perpetrators, as there were Russian perpetrators, as there were Ukrainian . . . not only German perpetrators.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wor ... ffa4a9ce0e
https://www.politico.eu/article/benjami ... utrageous/
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/net ... -1.5826618
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

User avatar
Aaron Richards
Poster
Posts: 244
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 9:03 am

Re: Polish Law thread.

Postby Aaron Richards » Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:25 pm

If you thought the Polish law proposal is troublesome, just take a look at this Jewish "response" (Ruderman Family Foundation) which is so hare-brained I don't know whether to laugh or to cry (21k views and counting; the dislike bar speaks for itself tho :lol: ) :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Chzwlm79a-Y

Were the actors even properly briefed about the law they were actually supposed to get so upset about? Nope.
Please subscribe to my YouTube channel "Holocaust Documents", where I fight back the sea of antisemitism & conspiracy theories that has taken over its comment section: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCTBlSX ... Un5jIhWm7g
I compile rebuttals to popular holocaust denier canards here: http://imgur.com/a/725A7

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 8K Posts
Posts: 8213
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: Polish Law thread.

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:27 pm

Aaron Richards wrote:If you thought the Polish law proposal is troublesome, just take a look at this Jewish "response" (Ruderman Family Foundation) which is so hare-brained I don't know whether to laugh or to cry (21k views and counting; the dislike bar speaks for itself tho :lol: ) :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Chzwlm79a-Y

Were the actors even properly briefed about the law they were actually supposed to get so upset about? Nope.


That’s as bad as trying to watch an Eric Hunt shlockfest. The only benefit is it’s relatively short.
When my son had his barmitzvah, and his wedding, there was no family whatsoever -that’s the way the second and third generation feel the Holocaust, they miss their family. My son hasn’t experienced a family life –having uncles, aunts, grandmothers, grandfathers. There is just that hole.
Edith Baneth
Savage Continent

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 20899
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Polish Law thread.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:25 pm

higher production values
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

User avatar
Aaron Richards
Poster
Posts: 244
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 9:03 am

Re: Polish Law thread.

Postby Aaron Richards » Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:40 pm

Ahh, taken down already. Looks like Ruderman Family Foundation actually did their homework and realized their viral vid had been just a knee-jerk reaction (mirror = https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zN8nOiKji2E)
Please subscribe to my YouTube channel "Holocaust Documents", where I fight back the sea of antisemitism & conspiracy theories that has taken over its comment section: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCTBlSX ... Un5jIhWm7g
I compile rebuttals to popular holocaust denier canards here: http://imgur.com/a/725A7

User avatar
Balsamo
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1694
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:29 pm

Re: Polish Law thread.

Postby Balsamo » Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:39 am

Hi everyone,

i kind of missed this thread, although it is today impossible to miss the debate that is still raging in Europe and more globally the western world...That is to say that were i live they really don't give a {!#%@}...

To be perfectly clear from the start, i am fundamentally against all types of "memorial laws" whatsoever, whatever the theme, the historical event, the moral topic, etc. I have always seen all those initiatives as counterproductive. Whatever the principal motivation was when this stupid idea began to spread - If i remember among the motivations was respect of the victims, to fight against the resurgence of the far right, with the idea that future generation could kind of being educated into not falling back to this evil past - the least one can say is that it is a failure on every points.

I cannot remember how many petitions i signed all along, especially when the wave stroke Belgium at the time i was at college. All the faculty signed it. I think i might even have signed the other petition launched by Holocaust controversies, but i am not sure. Anyway that was useless.

The wave reached the whole world, and especially the Council of Europe which not only issued recommendation on how the Holocaust should be taught, but also on how Holocaust revisionism should be fought.

So basically, why should others, especially new and insecure State like Poland, should refrain from following the stupid trend?

So, Aaron when you write:
I'm paraphrasing Poles saying things like "Holocaust was primarily a crime against Poland, 3 million Polish Jews and 3 million Polish Catholics died, but Hollywood only remembers Jews", "remember WW2 started when Poland was invaded", "Soviets invaded us too, so we really are the biggest victims unlike just the Jews you've been taught in school" etc. Their mentality is sickening.


What is the mentality you are talking about?
What is fundamentally wrong with what your "Poles" actually say?
Do you remember a Hollywood movie about the Poles?
I agree that to consider oneself as the biggest victim does not make much sense, a victim being a victim, but in the case of Poland, the term of genocide is not an usurpation. The Nazis, as well as the Soviets, made it clear that they did not want any Polish Nation anymore. Both intention was their annihilation, pure and simple. A Pole under Nazi occupation was not much more than a Jew.
And to add to all that, Poland was not even liberated in 1945!

To sum up, it is because the Polish State, of course, but also the Polish Nation, was meant to be destroyed that Poland today is so - and it is not a tendency i approve, of course - is so sensitive regarding those subjects.

That being said, what actually say the law: That the term "polish" extermination camps should no longer be used and that nor the Polish State nor the Polish Nation should be ever suspected or accused of having participated to the crimes committed by the Nazis! What is the big deal.
It seems the kind of laws that are meant to actually condemn no one at all!
Poland, by the way, was among the pioneer to pass anti-denial law regarding Nazi crimes, as well as communist crimes, IIRC in the late 1990's...How many sentenced?

So if anyone can explain to me what the fuss is all about, i will be grateful.

User avatar
Aaron Richards
Poster
Posts: 244
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 9:03 am

Re: Polish Law thread.

Postby Aaron Richards » Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:37 pm

And another gem uploaded on YT (will it also get taken down soon?) this time by Haaretz, and due to its reputation, therefore far more damaging that the previously posted Ruderman Family Foundation video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKk8Kh9FCAw

It is less polemic and goes into more detail explaining their position than the previous video, but I'm not quite sure whether the Jews uploading it even realized the logical fallacy in their argumentation: they're protesting, as they correctly observe, the (now) crime to label the Polish State as a Nazi collaborator, but then proceed to list examples of crimes committed by Poles that can be labeled actions of individuals, like ratting out neighbors, or taking their possessions, or the post-war pogrom organized locally in Kielce*. Yeah, umm, that does little to support your argument that it should be legal to accuse the Polish Nation as a whole of Nazi collaboration.

*Of course Bradley Burston does not tell you anything about the trial that followed. So much for journalism standards, huh?
Please subscribe to my YouTube channel "Holocaust Documents", where I fight back the sea of antisemitism & conspiracy theories that has taken over its comment section: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCTBlSX ... Un5jIhWm7g
I compile rebuttals to popular holocaust denier canards here: http://imgur.com/a/725A7

User avatar
Aaron Richards
Poster
Posts: 244
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 9:03 am

Re: Polish Law thread.

Postby Aaron Richards » Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:24 pm

Alright, the shelling* is getting heavier in the comments section. Many Polish commentors are basically saying (paraphrase): 'Guess who cooperated with the Germans in the ghettos and tormented their own people? Jewish Kapos!' or 'Germans would not have been able to kill that many Jews without cooperation from their own kind'

As hare-brained as those 'arguments' sound, I felt like coming up with a silly one of my own: 'The Polish State was not oblivious to the existence of Germans running death factories on THEIR soil. And yet, no actual, concerted efforts were undertaken by what was left of the country to bring this industrial killing to a halt. Therefore it shouldn't be illegal to suggest some kind of mild national guilt. I am well aware that there was no collaboration like Vichy France, but a nation that surrenders cannot be immune to accusations of acquiescence to some degree.'

Just throwing it out there into the

*sh_tflinging
Last edited by Aaron Richards on Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Please subscribe to my YouTube channel "Holocaust Documents", where I fight back the sea of antisemitism & conspiracy theories that has taken over its comment section: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCTBlSX ... Un5jIhWm7g
I compile rebuttals to popular holocaust denier canards here: http://imgur.com/a/725A7

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 8K Posts
Posts: 8213
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: Polish Law thread.

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:34 pm

Aaron Richards wrote:Alright, the shelling* is getting heavier in the comments section. Many Polish commentors are basically saying (paraphrase): 'Guess who cooperated with the Germans in the ghettos and tormented their own people? Jewish Kapos!' or 'Germans would not have been able to kill that many Jews without cooperation from their own kind'


An oldie but a goodie, deniers like the Rizolis make the same argument (even though they deny the Holocaust).
When my son had his barmitzvah, and his wedding, there was no family whatsoever -that’s the way the second and third generation feel the Holocaust, they miss their family. My son hasn’t experienced a family life –having uncles, aunts, grandmothers, grandfathers. There is just that hole.
Edith Baneth
Savage Continent

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 20899
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Polish Law thread.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:42 pm

Aaron Richards wrote:Alright, the shelling* is getting heavier in the comments section. Many Polish commentors are basically saying (paraphrase): 'Guess who cooperated with the Germans in the ghettos and tormented their own people? Jewish Kapos!' or 'Germans would not have been able to kill that many Jews without cooperation from their own kind'

As hare-brained as those 'arguments' sound, I felt like coming up with a silly one of my own: 'The Polish State was not oblivious to the existence of Germans running death factories on THEIR soil. And yet, no actual, concerted efforts were undertaken by what was left of the country to bring this industrial killing to a halt. Therefore it shouldn't be illegal to suggest some kind of national guilt. I am well aware that there was no collaboration like Vichy France, but a nation that surrenders cannot be immune to accusations of acquiescence to some degree.'

Just throwing it out there into the

*sh_tflinging

Based on reading of Engel and Zimmerman, among other books, I come to the sad conclusion that the Polish government and underground during the war, in part because of how its record is mixed (and how mixed that record is), did not represent Jewish and non-Jewish interests equally, to the detriment of Polish Jews. I cannot say whether under the new Polish law that viewpoint is illegal to express.

My concerns with the law are interrelated:
1) potentially chilling effect on speech, research, dialogue, given the background, e.g., the Gross episode
2) the framing of this IMO (and it's a judgment based on - admittedly - not much knowledge of Poland's government but also conversations I've had with close friends who emigrated from Poland as adults and have strong views against this law) has to do with the new law's small part in promotion of a mythical Poland in service of a right-wing (is this, in context, a redundancy?) nationalism - you can see the impact of this as the anti-Semites come out of the woodwork

That said, yes, Poles suffered horribly - from acts of repression, mass murder and politicide, widespread terror and threats of violence, economic exploitation, and nation-destruction - under German occupation - which makes me hate this entire episode, frankly.
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 8K Posts
Posts: 8213
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: Polish Law thread.

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:40 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
2) the framing of this IMO (and it's a judgment based on - admittedly - not much knowledge of Poland's government but also conversations I've had with close friends who emigrated from Poland as adults and have strong views against this law) has to do with the new law's small part in promotion of a mythical Poland in service of a right-wing (is this, in context, a redundancy?) nationalism - you can see the impact of this as the anti-Semites come out of the woodwork


This law is a symptom of this shift to the right, this need to chest thump and deny their complicity in crimes against Jews and others. It is an attempt to rewrite history and portray themselves as only victims, which is a very troubling beginning to a radical right-wing shift.


That said, yes, Poles suffered horribly - from acts of repression, mass murder and politicide, widespread terror and threats of violence, economic exploitation, and nation-destruction - under German occupation - which makes me hate this entire episode, frankly.


Absolutely.
When my son had his barmitzvah, and his wedding, there was no family whatsoever -that’s the way the second and third generation feel the Holocaust, they miss their family. My son hasn’t experienced a family life –having uncles, aunts, grandmothers, grandfathers. There is just that hole.
Edith Baneth
Savage Continent

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 20899
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Polish Law thread.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Feb 23, 2018 2:54 pm

WaPo piece on this, focusing on Jedwabne and its link to right-wing nationalism of the Law & Justice party: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/eu ... 0451d21fcb:
“There is no nation that has a totally clear conscience,” said Adam Michnik, 71, the editor in chief of the Gazeta Wyborcza, Poland’s largest daily newspaper and a former leader of the anti-Communist opposition. “Every nation had its Ku Klux Klan, and this was ours.”

Jan Gross, who has been at the center of this swirl since publishing Neighbors:
You have now empowered a regime that is openly drawing on xenophobic nationalism in Polish society as a means of legitimizing its power. And the main pull of this xenophobic nationalism is anti-Semitism. . . .

One of the stunning things is that the Holocaust has been mentally externalized for Poles. It’s as if something happened to ‘them,’ not to ‘us,’ even though it’s really the most dramatic episode of Polish history — 3 million Polish citizens were killed in the most brutal way imaginable, in a very short span of time. But in common parlance, this is somehow the story of someone else, of non-Poles.

Slawomir Broniarz, Polish teachers union:
Suddenly we are back to Communist times, and everything is ideology.

But also, Stanislaw Zebrowski, a middle school history, is quoted at length explaining Jedwabne as something Jews brought upon themselves and saying that “The situation forced Poles to participate in that murder, and I fully justify their actions.” 'cuz Judeo-Bolshevism, ya know . . .
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

User avatar
Aaron Richards
Poster
Posts: 244
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 9:03 am

Re: Polish Law thread.

Postby Aaron Richards » Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:47 pm

Here's the next complaint article:
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/20 ... a-mockery/
There were no crematoria or gas chambers in occupied France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Greece, Bulgaria, Luxembourg, Norway, Denmark, Czechoslovakia or any other nation invaded by Nazi troops.

Image
Image
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natzweiler-Struthof

The answer is that the Nazis knew that Poland had been anti-Semitic for centuries and the Germans were convinced that the Poles would not protest against death camps for Jews on their soil. As history shows, they were correct.

It's funny because the Poles like to pride themselves as being the most Jew-friendly nation in Europe, apparently it's all a matter of perspective and who is doing the narration.

Again, Kielce is mentioned, and again another jewish journalist does not mention the trial that followed. So much for objective journalism.

As a teenager, I once visited Poland to visit the ancient Jewish sites and see the death camps. At the time, my grandparents asked me why I would ever want to go back to a place soaked with Jewish blood. They referred not only to the Nazi atrocities that took place on the soil, but also to the country Poland, which both allowed and assisted in the Holocaust.

aaaand Menachem Levine of the Washington Times has already committed a crime (underlined part). Do you think he will be fined? How long is the reach of Poland's legal arm? Comment section is funny too.
Please subscribe to my YouTube channel "Holocaust Documents", where I fight back the sea of antisemitism & conspiracy theories that has taken over its comment section: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCTBlSX ... Un5jIhWm7g
I compile rebuttals to popular holocaust denier canards here: http://imgur.com/a/725A7

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 20899
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Polish Law thread.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:11 pm

good grief, thanks for posting these, I think it's a mixed bag, of course there was a strong background of antisemitism in Poland, but this had nothing to do with Nazi Germany's main objectives or strategies or why Auschwitz, Majdanek, Chelmo and the Einsatz Reinhard camps were in Poland: the Nazis wanted to crush Poland and then to (ab)use formerly Polish territory and Poles; they wanted to smash the Jews in their historic European heartland once and for all . . . Polish antisemites fought the Nazis and were exterminated by the Nazis . . . to say that Poland as a country "allowed" the Holocaust, aargh, does Levine imagine that one day Mr Germany said to Mr Poland, Hey bro, can we set up some "Holocaust centers" in your country, and that Mr Poland replied, Heck yeah, how can we help?
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944


Return to “Holocaust Denial”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests