Fuhrer Order or Lack Thereof? Does it Matter?

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Balmoral95
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Fuhrer Order or Lack Thereof? Does it Matter?

Postby Balmoral95 » Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:29 am

Current thoughts?

I rather expect this to be a null thread.

No philosophical whimsies regarding blue skies over Deutschland or any other meandering tripe.

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Re: Fuhrer Order or Lack Thereof? Does it Matter?

Postby scrmbldggs » Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:48 am

Unlike Dumpy, he wrote his own book(s). So no, it doesn't matter. :-P
.

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Re: Fuhrer Order or Lack Thereof? Does it Matter?

Postby Balmoral95 » Tue Jan 23, 2018 5:23 am

scrmbldggs wrote:Unlike Dumpy, he wrote his own book(s). So no, it doesn't matter. :-P


But he had help... albeit from Hess :lol:

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Re: Fuhrer Order or Lack Thereof? Does it Matter?

Postby Denying-History » Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:18 pm

Pretty sure that Wansee specifically states that Hitler would have to accept the final solution before the plan could happen. Maybe Chelmno could be considered someone taking action behind Hitler decided on anything, but it could be considered a test also considering it opened first on the 8th while Hitler's final descision was on the 12th.
« Yes, that may surprise some people, including my colleagues. But have no illusions. I never compelled anybody to work for me, just as we didn't compel the German people. They themselves gave us the job to do. Why did you work with me? Now, you'll have your little throat cut...but the earth will shake when we leave the scene... »
- Joseph Goebbels

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Re: Fuhrer Order or Lack Thereof? Does it Matter?

Postby nickterry » Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:25 pm

This debate died, in retrospect, with Gerlach's article on the Wannsee conference. Hitler announced his decision to exterminate the Jews of Europe on 12 December 1941 to the Reichsleiter and Gauleiter, as noted in Goebbels' diary. The timing was determined by his 'prophecy', i.e. that Jews would be annihilated if a world war was brought about.

Since Hitler had been reckoning on conflict with the US since the summer of 1941, all kinds of precursor hints fit with the timing of the decision - he might well have 'decided' earlier in private, or in conjunction with Himmler/Heydrich, in the autumn of 1941, but such a decision was also political, ergo his announcement to the Party leadership. This was then followed by the Wannsee conference initiating the senior civil servants, and was reconfirmed in spring 1942, likely after Hitler's last Reichstag meeting, at which he was given even more powers than before, in case anyone was going to argue with him.

This squares all the differences between Browning, Longerich and Gerlach, but awards primacy to Gerlach and 12.12.41. That's the closest we'll get to establishing 'the day' or 'the order', but it's clear the whole thing was a process. No written order survives, the closest allusion to it is Wisliceny's testimony re a Himmler order to Heydrich from spring 1942, which fits with what one would expect - Hitler wouldn't have committed himself to paper on this subject, and he had a habit of allowing the top dogs (Keitel, etc) of issuing orders on his behalf under their own signatures.

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Re: Fuhrer Order or Lack Thereof? Does it Matter?

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:46 am

> The timing was determined by his 'prophecy', i.e. that Jews would be annihilated if a world war was brought about.

That the announcement was so determined is not clear-cut since he had "publicly" acknowledged the start of a world war already before the American entry.

The decision *meshes* with the prophecy, since the American entry "reinforced" the fact that it was a world war, sure.

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Re: Fuhrer Order or Lack Thereof? Does it Matter?

Postby nickterry » Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:30 pm

Hitler may have talked of a world war before December 1941 (some citations for this?), but it's only in the second half of 1941 that the linkages back to the 1939 speech were forged, in a new strategic context after the start of Barbarossa. The 'prophecy' speech from 1939 was specifically revived in late summer/early autumn 1941 for propaganda use (Parole der Woche etc). The Kaufman campaign was the trigger for this, and ran parallel with Hitler thinking that the US and Germany were close to a de facto state of war: convoying, the Atlantic Charter, etc.

By December 1941, Hitler was entirely ready to declare war on both the US and the Jews. As I said earlier, he might have 'decided' privately before then, but both acts received validation in front of the NSDAP leadership, thus 12.12.41.

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Re: Fuhrer Order or Lack Thereof? Does it Matter?

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:51 am

nickterry wrote:Hitler may have talked of a world war before December 1941 (some citations for this?)

Goebbels diary Aug. 19, 1941. Quoted by Browning.

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Re: Fuhrer Order or Lack Thereof? Does it Matter?

Postby nickterry » Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:15 am

Sergey_Romanov wrote:
nickterry wrote:Hitler may have talked of a world war before December 1941 (some citations for this?)

Goebbels diary Aug. 19, 1941. Quoted by Browning.


But this proves the point, as do other docs from Sept-Oct '41. Hitler made the linkage back to his prophecy at this time, and within weeks the prophecy was being used as a propaganda slogan (7.9.1941 Parole der Woche), BUT Hitler also said that the time to begin deportations was not yet ripe; by Sept-Oct 1941 the excuse of retaliating against the deportation of Volga Germans was beginning to blur into the idea of a partial deportation of Reich Jews as a warning to the US, which explains the leaking to US correspondents still in Berlin.

In any case: the Goebbels diary records a private conversation - the propaganda repeating the prophecy was public, but Hitler made no big speeches in this time-frame.

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Re: Fuhrer Order or Lack Thereof? Does it Matter?

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:11 pm

I agree that Dec was more significant, I'm only pointing out that the timing was not unambiguously determined by the "world war" bit since Hitler's understanding of it was slippery. He could have just as easily given the exact same speech b4. H just happened to choose the US entry as the "last drop".

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Re: Fuhrer Order or Lack Thereof? Does it Matter?

Postby Nessie » Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:18 pm

In debates with deniers I point to the signed order for Aktion T4. That survived.

I am also sure I remember some stuff about Hitler signing exemptions allowing certain people with some Jewishness to them to still be in the Nazi Party or high ranking army officers. There was a "blood certificate" or something like that. The reasoning being if Hitler had to approve exemptions, he clearly approved the policy to not exempt.
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Re: Fuhrer Order or Lack Thereof? Does it Matter?

Postby Balsamo » Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:39 pm

nickterry wrote:This debate died, in retrospect, with Gerlach's article on the Wannsee conference. Hitler announced his decision to exterminate the Jews of Europe on 12 December 1941 to the Reichsleiter and Gauleiter, as noted in Goebbels' diary. The timing was determined by his 'prophecy', i.e. that Jews would be annihilated if a world war was brought about.

Since Hitler had been reckoning on conflict with the US since the summer of 1941, all kinds of precursor hints fit with the timing of the decision - he might well have 'decided' earlier in private, or in conjunction with Himmler/Heydrich, in the autumn of 1941, but such a decision was also political, ergo his announcement to the Party leadership. This was then followed by the Wannsee conference initiating the senior civil servants, and was reconfirmed in spring 1942, likely after Hitler's last Reichstag meeting, at which he was given even more powers than before, in case anyone was going to argue with him.

This squares all the differences between Browning, Longerich and Gerlach, but awards primacy to Gerlach and 12.12.41. That's the closest we'll get to establishing 'the day' or 'the order', but it's clear the whole thing was a process. No written order survives, the closest allusion to it is Wisliceny's testimony re a Himmler order to Heydrich from spring 1942, which fits with what one would expect - Hitler wouldn't have committed himself to paper on this subject, and he had a habit of allowing the top dogs (Keitel, etc) of issuing orders on his behalf under their own signatures.


I do not agree with the above, that is Gerlach's datation.
But then, the question is wrong. There could not have been a direct written order saying "let's kill the Jews", but then there are many orders that would enable Himmler to do the task, giving him the powers and authority to actually proceed.

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Re: Fuhrer Order or Lack Thereof? Does it Matter?

Postby nickterry » Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:46 pm

Balsamo wrote:
nickterry wrote:This debate died, in retrospect, with Gerlach's article on the Wannsee conference. Hitler announced his decision to exterminate the Jews of Europe on 12 December 1941 to the Reichsleiter and Gauleiter, as noted in Goebbels' diary. The timing was determined by his 'prophecy', i.e. that Jews would be annihilated if a world war was brought about.

Since Hitler had been reckoning on conflict with the US since the summer of 1941, all kinds of precursor hints fit with the timing of the decision - he might well have 'decided' earlier in private, or in conjunction with Himmler/Heydrich, in the autumn of 1941, but such a decision was also political, ergo his announcement to the Party leadership. This was then followed by the Wannsee conference initiating the senior civil servants, and was reconfirmed in spring 1942, likely after Hitler's last Reichstag meeting, at which he was given even more powers than before, in case anyone was going to argue with him.

This squares all the differences between Browning, Longerich and Gerlach, but awards primacy to Gerlach and 12.12.41. That's the closest we'll get to establishing 'the day' or 'the order', but it's clear the whole thing was a process. No written order survives, the closest allusion to it is Wisliceny's testimony re a Himmler order to Heydrich from spring 1942, which fits with what one would expect - Hitler wouldn't have committed himself to paper on this subject, and he had a habit of allowing the top dogs (Keitel, etc) of issuing orders on his behalf under their own signatures.


I do not agree with the above, that is Gerlach's datation.
But then, the question is wrong. There could not have been a direct written order saying "let's kill the Jews", but then there are many orders that would enable Himmler to do the task, giving him the powers and authority to actually proceed.


So you have a better date for Hitler making or announcing his decision?

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Re: Fuhrer Order or Lack Thereof? Does it Matter?

Postby Balsamo » Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:14 am

Not really since there is just no written order that state "kill all the Jews of Europe".

I like the title of the thread which asks "Does it matter?". Actually, it does not since, as i wrote many times, there are many orders that made it possible for Himmler to actually ACT. These supra-national authority given to the RFSS were all backed by orders. Head of the RKF to allow him to move people from one territory to anothers, two FB that gave him absolute full powers - including murder - to settle conquered territories, full control of the Police forces, etc. etc. etc.

At some point, all Himmler needed was a blink of an eye meaning do it.

What i meant is that i did not agree with the statement that Gerlach kind of killed the debate. He maybe wrote a good proposition, but like all the attempts to fix a specific date for a global order to kill all the Jews at once, it has its weaknesses and there are more than one element to refute the whole idea.
If Gerlach thesis killed anything, it might be the idea that it is possible to determine such date, and that such an order was ever issued in the first place.

My opinion, as you might remember, is that the global Holocaust is the result of a succession of orders, targeting specific groups of Jews one after another, with nuances along the way...Polish Jews were murdered en masse as soon as 39-40, outside a schedule of complete annihilation, a clear murderous policy was put in place after barbarossa, followed by the ER camps targetting the Polish Jews in the Ghettos, a policy that was finally extended to all the Jews some times between spring and summer 1942.
I do not think it matters much to propose a specific date for each decision.

What seems obvious to me is that Hitler would not have issued such a horrific criminal order in front of hundreds of "Parteigenosse", as it would have been the most terrible idea if the point was to keep the whole operation within some form of "secrecy".

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Re: Fuhrer Order or Lack Thereof? Does it Matter?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Feb 05, 2018 1:20 pm

wash, rinse, repeat
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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Re: Fuhrer Order or Lack Thereof? Does it Matter?

Postby Balsamo » Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:23 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:wash, rinse, repeat


Indeed, and so is the OP... ;)


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