The Reinhard Camps: A Rogue Operation?

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The Reinhard Camps: A Rogue Operation?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:46 pm

So, this is more of a nature of a request than my idea.

VFX/NSDAP believes that the Reinhard Camps were a rogue operation and that Hitler did not know or condone the genocidal actions that took place there. As far as I know VFX bases this on the writings of David Irving, he did not know about Rassinier’s meeting with Pfannenstiel, described here:

https://www.historiography-project.com/books/19780202-debunking-the-genocide-myth/2-13-witnesses.php

......However, they were neither massive nor deliberately ordered by the hierarchy of the Third Reich, in spite of what the evidence that was created out of thin air at Nuremberg, and that was verified by unscrupulous people, seemed to indicate; rather, such activities were the deeds of a few isolated criminals. What is certain is that each time that the authorities of the Third Reich were informed about things of this kind, they put an end to it, and I brought you proof of that.


In any case I’ll open this open for discussion, I don’t have time to go into more detail. I’ll pass this link along to VFX.
‘I have not left anybody in the dark about the fact that this time, millions of adult men would not die, and hundreds of thousands of women and children would not be burnt or bombed to death in the cities, without the actual culprit, albeit by more humane means, having to pay for his guilt.’
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Re: The Reinhard Camps: A Rogue Operation?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:48 pm

Why? He disgraced himself and took off.
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Re: The Reinhard Camps: A Rogue Operation?

Postby scrmbldggs » Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:51 pm

...making friends across the board.
.

Lard, save me from your followers.

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Re: The Reinhard Camps: A Rogue Operation?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:14 pm

Not me :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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Re: The Reinhard Camps: A Rogue Operation?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:31 pm

If he doesn’t come back I’ll change the topic. This idea of his doesn’t really make any sense to me.
‘I have not left anybody in the dark about the fact that this time, millions of adult men would not die, and hundreds of thousands of women and children would not be burnt or bombed to death in the cities, without the actual culprit, albeit by more humane means, having to pay for his guilt.’
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Re: The Reinhard Camps: A Rogue Operation?

Postby Balmoral95 » Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:51 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote: This idea of his doesn’t really make any sense to me.


Apart from whether or not it makes sense, it's a misstatement of what Irving has to say on the subject (at least in his book).

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Re: The Reinhard Camps: A Rogue Operation?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:01 am

Balmoral95 wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote: This idea of his doesn’t really make any sense to me.


Apart from whether or not it makes sense, it's a misstatement of what Irving has to say on the subject (at least in his book).


What does Irving say?

I based this off what VFX said, I’m not sure I got that right.
‘I have not left anybody in the dark about the fact that this time, millions of adult men would not die, and hundreds of thousands of women and children would not be burnt or bombed to death in the cities, without the actual culprit, albeit by more humane means, having to pay for his guilt.’
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Re: The Reinhard Camps: A Rogue Operation?

Postby Balmoral95 » Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:14 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote: This idea of his doesn’t really make any sense to me.


Apart from whether or not it makes sense, it's a misstatement of what Irving has to say on the subject (at least in his book).


What does Irving say?

I based this off what VFX said, I’m not sure I got that right.


Partly right and partly wrong. At no time does Irving suggest a criminal cabal motivated by greedy self-interest initiated the exterminations. He does however take a pretty rigid functionalist approach to this and always tends to isolate Hitler from having any knowledge of or ordering any physical annihilation of the Jews.

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Re: The Reinhard Camps: A Rogue Operation?

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:05 am

AR->Korherr->Hitler. *shrug*

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Re: The Reinhard Camps: A Rogue Operation?

Postby Nessie » Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:37 am

NSDAP has been promoting the idea of a rogue element did the murdering since he arrived at RODOH. He has arrived at that opinion because he is a National Socialist (apparently the party is still going), here is a summary of policies and leaders;

NSDAP
We support National economic independence.
We support Socialist working class propriety.
We support total freedom of speech.
We support secularism in State affairs.
We support reasonable border controls.
We support environmentally responsive actions.
We support all resolutions of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
We support inclusiveness, diversity, including all cultures, religion and ethnicity.
We support humanitarian actions according to the United Nations protocols.
We support the right of our Citizens to defend themselves.

FUHRERS
Anton Drexler (1920–1921)
Adolf Hitler (1921–1945)
Martin Bormann (1945)
Wilhelm Schepmann (1946-1970)
Karl Schröder (1970-current)"

The party is apparently trying to get permission to start campaigning for parliamentary seats.

His belief is that Hitler was a terrible party leader, who was wrong to lead the party into seizing power and forming a dictatorship and then, in the disorganised mess that was his leadership, a rogue element were able to operate and instead of making the Jews work, murdered them. I do not agree, I am sure Hitler knew exactly what was going on.

His leadership style (in particular regarding the Jewish question) was to set tasks and then let those set the task, figure out how to achieve it. In the end what did happen to the Jews was pretty ad hoc and subject to the competing demands of labour vs Juden-frei. I think that ad hoc policy is why the Danish Jews were able to escape in 1943 and that it took until 1944 before the Hungarians were forced to hand over their Jewish population. But that ad hoc policy is why NSDAP claims it was rogue Nazis who did the killing.

The Nazis were embarrassed by the public reaction to T4 and were concerned about their image with the German people. Quite how they planned on dealing with the missing Jews issue, if they had won the war, I do not know. Maybe they planned a denier type claim of they survived and lived happily ever after in the USA and Israel and sorry about the ones who died of typhus, we did our best to keep them alive, but they are all diseased anyway.
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Re: The Reinhard Camps: A Rogue Operation?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:42 am

Sergey_Romanov wrote:AR->Korherr->Hitler. *shrug*

good point, right down to the *shrug*, with Himmler sandwiched in there, too
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Re: The Reinhard Camps: A Rogue Operation?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:49 pm

>> I think that ad hoc policy is why . . . it took until 1944 before the Hungarians were forced to hand over their Jewish population.

I don’t see how what happened in Hungary is an example of ad hoc German Jewish policy (ad hoc implementation, due to foreign relations concerns, for sure, but not policy). By late September 1942 Ribbentrop had instructed Luther to get Kalláy to agree to Hungarian participation, along with that of other countries, in the Jewish resettlement program; by October Luther was pressuring Stzójay. E.g., Stzójay kept asking why Italy didn't have to surrender its Jews and asked for assurances that the Jews surrendered were to be used in labor ("road construction in the East and later transferred to a Jewish reservation"). But Kalláy, downplaying the urgency and importance of the Jewish question, hemmed and hawed.

Just as an example: before this Luther had complained that the Germans hadn't yet approached the Hungarian government to evacuate Hungary's Jews because the "status of Hungarian anti-Jewish legislation so far, does not promise satisfactory success."

At the first Schloss Klessheim meeting in April 1943, according to Braham, Hitler complained to Horthy about Kalláy's stalling and told him that "the Jews [in Poland] who did not want to work were shot and those who could not work died." The Jews, he said, were like bacilli and "nations that did not eliminate Jews perished." Here Hitler was pressing a German policy - which he'd insist upon, with troops and an SD Kommando to back up his insistence, come spring 1944. At the time, Horthy refused to dismiss Kalláy and get on with it, leading Goebbels to opine in his diary (8 May): "The Jewish question is being solved least satisfactorily by the Hungarians. . . . The Führer did not succeed during his talk with Horthy in convincing the latter of the need for more stringent measures." (And so on, somewhat similarly with Antonescu in Romania refusing to surrender Romanian Jews during fall 1942 and stating this as a policy IIRC after Stalingrad; in March 1943 Bulgaria delivered up 13,000 or so Jews from their newly acquired territory of Thrace and Macedonia to Treblinka but local opposition to further deportations in May 1943 blocked further cooperation with German desires.)
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Re: The Reinhard Camps: A Rogue Operation?

Postby Nessie » Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:43 pm

Yes, it is better described as one policy of get rid of the Jews and an ad hoc implementation. So, that resulted in big differences between occupied countries, from the Dutch who were very thorough at recording and rounding up the Jews, to the majority of Danes escaping, to the Hungarians delaying and delaying to the Lithuanians where there was more local assisting in the killings.

What NSDAP is suggesting is a very extreme version of extreme functionalism,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functiona ... rpretation

"Extreme functionalists such as Götz Aly believe that the Nazi leadership had nothing to do with initiating the Holocaust and that the entire initiative came from the lower ranks of the German bureaucracy. This philosophy is what is known as the bottom-up approach of the Holocaust."
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Re: The Reinhard Camps: A Rogue Operation?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:06 pm

Although he also said her, as VFX, that "Auschwitz was never used as an extermination camp though Typhus killed many and gas trials were carried out in the little red and white houses using Zb. This was the commandants decision for the ill and infirm as a form of euthanasia and often carried out in the early hours of the morning," which IMO goes beyond any far reaches of functionalism.
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Re: The Reinhard Camps: A Rogue Operation?

Postby Balmoral95 » Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:17 pm

Sergey_Romanov wrote:AR->Korherr->Hitler. *shrug*


Irving on Korherr at p. 577:


Image

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Re: The Reinhard Camps: A Rogue Operation?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:55 pm

"expressis verbis" LOL
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Re: The Reinhard Camps: A Rogue Operation?

Postby VFX » Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:23 pm

Thank you Nessie for your input here and Jeff for making the thread.

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Re: The Reinhard Camps: A Rogue Operation?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:40 pm

VFX wrote:Thank you Nessie for your input here and Jeff for making the thread.



I’m curious to what your input will be.

As I mentioned up thread, I don’t buy this “rogue element” hypothesis but I do want to see what evidence you have.
‘I have not left anybody in the dark about the fact that this time, millions of adult men would not die, and hundreds of thousands of women and children would not be burnt or bombed to death in the cities, without the actual culprit, albeit by more humane means, having to pay for his guilt.’
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Re: The Reinhard Camps: A Rogue Operation?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:00 pm

VFX's contributions to this thread have been food for thought.
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Re: The Reinhard Camps: A Rogue Operation?

Postby VFX » Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:32 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:As I mentioned up thread, I don’t buy this “rogue element” hypothesis but I do want to see what evidence you have.

There is simply no evidence to link Herr Hitler to the murders. If you guys can find some then throw it at me, I'll stand in the corner and take the mud. He was the NSDAP in those times.

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Re: The Reinhard Camps: A Rogue Operation?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:03 pm

VFX wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:As I mentioned up thread, I don’t buy this “rogue element” hypothesis but I do want to see what evidence you have.

There is simply no evidence to link Herr Hitler to the murders. If you guys can find some then throw it at me, I'll stand in the corner and take the mud. He was the NSDAP in those times.


If he was the NSDAP of his times, don’t all decisions go back to him?
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Re: The Reinhard Camps: A Rogue Operation?

Postby VFX » Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:10 pm

Yup he was captain of the ship, he has to take full responsibility. He is dead so the task lies to some of us to sort out the excrement and face up as men. He just gave orders and let others sort out what the meaning of those orders were. Often the same tasks were given to different organizations eg the cops and the gestapo investigating the same stuff, then finding the army doing investigations on the issues as well. Army arresting cops and secret police arresting army and policemen. Terrible administration to say the least.
Last edited by VFX on Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Reinhard Camps: A Rogue Operation?

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:11 pm

VFX wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:As I mentioned up thread, I don’t buy this “rogue element” hypothesis but I do want to see what evidence you have.

There is simply no evidence to link Herr Hitler to the murders. If you guys can find some then throw it at me, I'll stand in the corner and take the mud. He was the NSDAP in those times.

Already have above.

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Re: The Reinhard Camps: A Rogue Operation?

Postby Balmoral95 » Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:19 pm

VFX wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:As I mentioned up thread, I don’t buy this “rogue element” hypothesis but I do want to see what evidence you have.
He was the NSDAP in those times.


And the signicance of that is exactly what?

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Re: The Reinhard Camps: A Rogue Operation?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:00 pm

VFX wrote:Yup he was captain of the ship, he has to take full responsibility. He is dead so the task lies to some of us to sort out the excrement and face up as men.


Face up as men? Do you feel as though you owe some kind of penance for a man dead over 70 years?


He just gave orders and let others sort out what the meaning of those orders were. Often the same tasks were given to different organizations eg the cops and the gestapo investigating the same stuff, then finding the army doing investigations on the issues as well. Army arresting cops and secret police arresting army and policemen. Terrible administration to say the least.


No doubt but that was the essence of Hitler’s government, a group of competing interests trying to interpret and predict what it was that Hitler wanted and what he would want next.

Hitler’s main goal during the war was to win it, he left the Jews to the SS and others.
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Re: The Reinhard Camps: A Rogue Operation?

Postby VFX » Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:13 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:Face up as men? Do you feel as though you owe some kind of penance for a man dead over 70 years?

Yup, the sins of our fathers. It's something as National Socialists we have to face head on. As Karl said.. ( a little edited)
Shutzstaffel died as National Socialist and for National Socialism and so will we. They gave their lives for humanity and being human. The price of freedom has high costs and we will pay our share, or the full cost if necessary. ... Karl Schröder.. Führer.. NSDAP

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Re: The Reinhard Camps: A Rogue Operation?

Postby VFX » Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:36 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Hitler’s main goal during the war was to win it, he left the Jews to the SS and others.

We think the war was with Herr Hitler and not the people of Deutschland. Sadly our brave young men were killing their brave young men. In any other time we all would have been the best of friends. Very beautiful people were lost in that war and the world has lost a part of our humanity forever: it is not just about Juden, no matter how terrible it was for them. We look think and act more or less the same, similar cultures. English language is just a diabolical version of Deutsche. This crap shouldn't have happened at all. I wish I could get Hitler, Churchill and Stalin in a room and then test the efficacy of Zb.. sorry that is the Nazi in me coming out.
If I can apologize for my English it is not my native tongue. So please read past the obvious flaws.

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Re: The Reinhard Camps: A Rogue Operation?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:54 pm

VFX wrote:it is not just about Juden

Jeffk already said that. No, it wasn't, there were the KLs, T-4, Aktion 14f13, the Hunger Plan and Green File, the Kommissarbefehl, Operational Orders No. 8 & 9, collective reprisal orders, medical experiments, the Barbarossa jurisdiction order (Kriegsgerichtsbarkeitserlass) and other orders for the military, general orders to the Einsatzgruppen, the extermination of the Roma, Night & Fog, and so many crimes planned and committed by the National Socialists.

Sergey Romanov noted a piece of evidence linking Hitler to the extermination of the Jews. You didn't reply.
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Re: The Reinhard Camps: A Rogue Operation?

Postby Balmoral95 » Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:12 am

VFX wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Hitler’s main goal during the war was to win it, he left the Jews to the SS and others.

We think the war was with Herr Hitler and not the people of Deutschland. Sadly our brave young men were killing their brave young men. In any other time we all would have been the best of friends. Very beautiful people were lost in that war and the world has lost a part of our humanity forever: it is not just about Juden, no matter how terrible it was for them. We look think and act more or less the same, similar cultures. English language is just a diabolical version of Deutsche. This crap shouldn't have happened at all. I wish I could get Hitler, Churchill and Stalin in a room and then test the efficacy of Zb.. sorry that is the Nazi in me coming out.
If I can apologize for my English it is not my native tongue. So please read past the obvious flaws.


Off topic BS.

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Re: The Reinhard Camps: A Rogue Operation?

Postby VFX » Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:18 am

Balmoral95 wrote:

Off topic BS.

Who gives a rats rectum what you think. If you don't wish to contribute go to the monster forum. FO. This thread was created so a National Socialist could give their thoughts on the events of the past. I don't give a stuff about your opinion.
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Re: The Reinhard Camps: A Rogue Operation?

Postby VFX » Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:21 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
VFX wrote:it is not just about Juden

Jeffk already said that. No, it wasn't, there were the KLs, T-4, Aktion 14f13, the Hunger Plan and Green File, the Kommissarbefehl, Operational Orders No. 8 & 9, collective reprisal orders, medical experiments, the Barbarossa jurisdiction order (Kriegsgerichtsbarkeitserlass) and other orders for the military, general orders to the Einsatzgruppen, the extermination of the Roma, Night & Fog, and so many crimes planned and committed by the National Socialists.

Sergey Romanov noted a piece of evidence linking Hitler to the extermination of the Jews. You didn't reply.

thanks for the information Sergei. I am looking at other urgent issues at the moment so give me time please. Your input is invaluable... thanks.

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Re: The Reinhard Camps: A Rogue Operation?

Postby Balmoral95 » Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:23 am

VFX wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:

Off topic BS.

Who gives a rats rectum what you think. If you don't wish to contribute go to the monster forum. FO


I already have contributed... to the topic expressed in the OP, you stupid facking cant.

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Re: The Reinhard Camps: A Rogue Operation?

Postby VFX » Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:24 am

Balmoral95 wrote:
VFX wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:

Off topic BS.

Who gives a rats rectum what you think. If you don't wish to contribute go to the monster forum. FO


I already have contributed... to the topic expressed in the OP, you stupid facking cant.

Please do not contribute any more... cya

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Re: The Reinhard Camps: A Rogue Operation?

Postby Balmoral95 » Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:27 am

VFX wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:
VFX wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:

Off topic BS.

Who gives a rats rectum what you think. If you don't wish to contribute go to the monster forum. FO


I already have contributed... to the topic expressed in the OP, you stupid facking cant.

Please do not contribute any more... cya


So you're leaving? Well good bye then...

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Re: The Reinhard Camps: A Rogue Operation?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:29 am

VFX wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
VFX wrote:it is not just about Juden

Jeffk already said that. No, it wasn't, there were the KLs, T-4, Aktion 14f13, the Hunger Plan and Green File, the Kommissarbefehl, Operational Orders No. 8 & 9, collective reprisal orders, medical experiments, the Barbarossa jurisdiction order (Kriegsgerichtsbarkeitserlass) and other orders for the military, general orders to the Einsatzgruppen, the extermination of the Roma, Night & Fog, and so many crimes planned and committed by the National Socialists.

Sergey Romanov noted a piece of evidence linking Hitler to the extermination of the Jews. You didn't reply.

thanks for the information Sergei. I am looking at other urgent issues at the moment so give me time please. Your input is invaluable... thanks.

Sorry, I am not Sergey. I guess you haven't thought about this yet. Urgent matters! LOL What - like pulling your head out of your ass?
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Re: The Reinhard Camps: A Rogue Operation?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:30 am

VFX wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:
VFX wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:

Off topic BS.

Who gives a rats rectum what you think. If you don't wish to contribute go to the monster forum. FO


I already have contributed... to the topic expressed in the OP, you stupid facking cant.

Please do not contribute any more... cya

Please be responsive and stop dodging.
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Re: The Reinhard Camps: A Rogue Operation?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:33 am

VFX wrote:If you don't wish to contribute go to the monster forum. FO. This thread was created so a National Socialist could give their thoughts on the events of the past. I don't give a stuff about your opinion.

You misunderstand both what Balmoral said - he saids he wishes to contribute for crissake - and how this forum works. It is open to all its members to post and contribute. Your repeated attempts to control comments on what you post show fear of discussion, as do your constant dodges.
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Re: The Reinhard Camps: A Rogue Operation?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:01 am

VFX wrote:We think the war was with Herr Hitler and not the people of Deutschland.


Yet Germans fought with enthusiasm, without the backing of Germans there would have been no war.

Sadly our brave young men were killing their brave young men. In any other time we all would have been the best of friends.


I’m struggling with your idealism here.

Very beautiful people were lost in that war and the world has lost a part of our humanity forever: it is not just about Juden, no matter how terrible it was for them.


I don’t disagree, however, the Nazis (and others) singled out Jews to a terrifying degree. Even T-4 went underground after public opinion went against it, Soviet POWs allowed to live, rations raised, even for Poles, the Roma and Sinti were not pursued the same way. Antisemitism lay at the foundations of National Socialism, war radicalized it but even the seeds for genocide were there. There was no backing down, the Jews under Nazi control were judged solely on their worth. Those that wound up on the wrong side died.
‘I have not left anybody in the dark about the fact that this time, millions of adult men would not die, and hundreds of thousands of women and children would not be burnt or bombed to death in the cities, without the actual culprit, albeit by more humane means, having to pay for his guilt.’
Adolf Hitler
Final Will and Testament

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Re: The Reinhard Camps: A Rogue Operation?

Postby VFX » Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:12 am

Jeff you invited us here and we obliged. It was assumed you wished to know a little about the party.
There are real concerns for Europe. Peter below in the video is a member of the NSDAP and forced to flee to Norway.
https://youtu.be/otzPSyShTpA
Last edited by VFX on Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Reinhard Camps: A Rogue Operation?

Postby Balmoral95 » Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:30 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
VFX wrote:We think the war was with Herr Hitler and not the people of Deutschland.


Yet Germans fought with enthusiasm, without the backing of Germans there would have been no war.

Sadly our brave young men were killing their brave young men. In any other time we all would have been the best of friends.


I’m struggling with your idealism here.

Very beautiful people were lost in that war and the world has lost a part of our humanity forever: it is not just about Juden, no matter how terrible it was for them.


I don’t disagree, however, the Nazis (and others) singled out Jews to a terrifying degree. Even T-4 went underground after public opinion went against it, Soviet POWs allowed to live, rations raised, even for Poles, the Roma and Sinti were not pursued the same way. Antisemitism lay at the foundations of National Socialism, war radicalized it but even the seeds for genocide were there. There was no backing down, the Jews under Nazi control were judged solely on their worth. Those that wound up on the wrong side died.



Why don't you two get a room :roll:


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