Mass Grave Surveys

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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Postby VFX » Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:26 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:
VFX wrote:Cool you guys said there were no sticking to threads so make up your minds. Follow your own advice.

Typical fruitcake... speaks apples and oranges.

Derailing and passing off another's work as his own are . . . to each other as a fish is to a bicycle. Speaking of fish, you've hooked a dumb one.

who care I dont. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Postby scrmbldggs » Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:34 am

VFX wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:
VFX wrote:Cool you guys said there were no sticking to threads so make up your minds. Follow your own advice.

Typical fruitcake... speaks apples and oranges.

Derailing and passing off another's work as his own are . . . to each other as a fish is to a bicycle. Speaking of fish, you've hooked a dumb one.

who care I dont. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Until you're out of the water.
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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Postby VFX » Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:35 am

scrmbldggs wrote:Until you're out of the water.

Some sort of anxiety disorder as well a comorbant condition. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Postby scrmbldggs » Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:39 am

VFX wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:Until you're out of the water.

Some sort of anxiety disorder as well a comorbant condition. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Sorry to hear that. Massive head trauma, I presume?
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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Postby VFX » Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:41 am

scrmbldggs wrote:Sorry to hear that. Massive head trauma, I presume?

Its OK, sorry you suffered that, it shows through but you can fit in if you try. Empowerment is the key. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
You have gone way off topic... stick to the mass graves please.
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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Postby scrmbldggs » Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:47 am

VFX wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:
VFX wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:Until you're out of the water.

Some sort of anxiety disorder as well a comorbant condition. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Sorry to hear that. Massive head trauma, I presume?

Its OK, sorry you suffered that, it shows through but you can fit in if you try. Empowerment is the key. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
You have gone way off topic... stick to the mass graves please.

Stick to proper quoting, please.
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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Postby VFX » Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:53 am

scrmbldggs wrote:
VFX wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:
VFX wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:Until you're out of the water.

Some sort of anxiety disorder as well a comorbant condition. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Sorry to hear that. Massive head trauma, I presume?

Its OK, sorry you suffered that, it shows through but you can fit in if you try. Empowerment is the key. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
You have gone way off topic... stick to the mass graves please.

Stick to proper quoting, please.

I am on topic you are not...you little old thread de railer you. You and Nessie have much in common. :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Postby scrmbldggs » Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:54 am

VFX wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:
VFX wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:
VFX wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:Until you're out of the water.

Some sort of anxiety disorder as well a comorbant condition. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Sorry to hear that. Massive head trauma, I presume?

Its OK, sorry you suffered that, it shows through but you can fit in if you try. Empowerment is the key. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
You have gone way off topic... stick to the mass graves please.

Stick to proper quoting, please.

I am on topic you are not...you little old thread de railer you. You and Nessie have much in common. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Go to bed, you're much too hyper from lack of... many things...
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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Postby VFX » Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:55 am

scrmbldggs wrote:Go to bed, you're much too hyper from lack of... many things...

You cannot invite me to bed you are a fish. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:04 am

Since these guys keep spouting denier cliches and cannot find a way to engage in the EG thread, let's lay out for folks here a bit of what the data say about Jews and partisans - and Jews and the German killing operations in the East:

NOTE 1. the %'s of victims of Einsatzgruppe B . . . posted by Hans in 2016:

Hans wrote:I'm certainly looking forward to Mattogno to explain this. Good luck, he will need it.

Death toll of Einsatzgruppe B:
Image

Breakdown of Einsatzgruppe B victims for 1941:

Image


[This matches fairly well with Jäger report, which deniers here describe as a forgery. Jäger report % of Jewish victims in operations of EK3 is actually in the high 90s.]

NOTE 2. A case from Lithuania

In April 1943, a report of the Chief of the Security Police and the Security Service in Lithuania to the Reich Security Head Office on the situation in Lithuania in April 1943 included item "7) Statistics about the activity of Dept IV in the General District of Lithuania for the period from January 1 to April 30, 1943." These statistics included data on the numbers of individuals subject during the period to arrest, search, imprisonment/confinement in a camp, or "special treatments" for various causes. The causes for action listed were

* Communism & Marxism
* Partisans & parachutists
* Russian POWs
* Sabotage & terrorism
* Resistance movement
* Jews
* Violation of decrees about … Jews
* Refusals to work
* Spreading of rumors & listening in to enemy broadcasts
* Political church
* Espionage
* Offenses committed by Germans

Of individual violators subjected to “special treatments,” the numbers were as follows:

* Jews - 4,230
* Partisans & parachutists - 32
* Communism & Marxism - 30
* Violation of decrees about … Jews - 1
* Refusals to work - 1
* Spreading of rumors & listening in to enemy broadcasts - 1

Note that the largest target of the action "special treatments" (execution) was "Jews." 98% of those killed were Jews, about 1% "partisans & parachutists," even in 1943. Why, if Jews were arrested and executed only as partisans as deniers have claimed, did the Security Police differentiate in the EG reports and such reports as the one described here between all other violations (including partisan activity, resistance, sabotage) and Jews?

(Documents Accuse, p 273)

NOTE 3. On partisans and the Jews . . .

On partisans in Belorussia and Ukraine:

- most Soviet partisan commanders did not welcome Jewish fighters; Dean quotes from one leader south of Baranovichi who dismissed Jews as cowards who'd given their valuables to the Germans and worked for them and only late in the war tried to save their skins by appealing to the partisans; would-be Jewish fighters could be simply rejected or even threatened with shooting; Jews without arms were generally sent packing

- Martin Dean quotes from a Soviet partisan leader near Slonim who argued that Jews didn't have the skills (firearms, military) to be of use - and, as Jews joined existing Soviet units to show "first of all that they did not go to the slaughter," they could be schooled and made into good fighters

- Dean gives the example of Jews who following the German liquidation of their ghetto, Nesvizh, in late spring 1942, approached an established partisan leader, this leader took under his protection some of the surviving Nesvizh Jews after they told him of the German murder action that had destroyed the ghetto, leaving them in hiding

- as was the case in the Baltics, many of the Jewish partisan units, Dean says of Belorussia and Ukraine, were more family camps maintained in the forests to protect Jews from further actions and from which some of the members attempted revenge actions; these were not effective military forces

- by late 1943 and into 1944 (well after the period under discussion - more than a year after the last EG report) some Jewish partisans in the region were able to join Soviet partisans in attacking transportation facilities

- the partisan units in Belorussia and Ukraine did not include many Jewish fighters, e.g., the "Stalin" brigade with 1,000 members in fall 1943 (located near Brest) had 3% Jews and 32% Russians, 38% Belorussians, and 10% Ukrainians; in the Nalibocki forest area, in contrast, by fall 1943 about 12% of the partisans were Jews (again, this total was reached well after the period we're debating about) - but there were many Jewish family camps in this area, boosting the % of Jews - overall, "there were some 370 000 Soviet partisans in Belorussia in 1944, of whom about 4 to 5 per cent (or 15 000) were Jews" - this is what deniers would have us believe constitutes a significant Jewish threat to Wehrmacht - and somehow explains the mass murder of over 100s of 1000s of Jews during 1941 and 1942! (Dean adds that in Volhynia, where there was less overall support for the Soviet partisans, therefore the Jewish % was higher - about 14% - but that Jewish participation elsewhere in Ukraine "was considerably lower")

- the "nucleus of growing Soviet partisan resistance from the summer of 1942 came from Soviet PoWs, who were driven into the forests by the threat of starvation or being shot"; only later, in 1943 and thereafter, did Jews surviving the 2nd wave of the German extermination actions (which wiped out Jewish communities throughout the region) augment these forces appreciably; there was a tendency in the region of Dean's study for Jews late in the war to be overrepresented by % of population in the partisan brigades - because very few Jews were left alive and a high % of few remaining survivors joined the brigades for revenge and/or defense purposes after their communities had been slaughtered by the Germans and only as a result of the mass killings - this is what deniers would have us believe represents Jewish originating of partisan warfare in the occupied USSR

- overall, according to Dean, membership in Soviet partisan units reflected more the makeup of the local population than anything but Russians were well represented generally

- in heavily Polish areas, the partisans themselves were often overly hostile to Jews; Dean cites a case where Polish underground reports referred to "Jewish-peasant gangs" as plunderers; the Polish units were also hostile to Soviet partisan brigades and cooperation between Polish and Russian units was "sporadic"

- the famous Jewish partisan Tuvia Bielski was denounced by the NKVD for helping his fighters avoid conscription into the Red Army as the Red Army advanced (Bielski simply disbanded his brigade so members could not be conscripted) - Bielski himself fled to Palestine

source, Martin Dean, Collaboration in the Holocaust: Crimes of the Local Police in Belorussia and Ukraine, 1941-44 pp 124-126, 141-143, 156, 165
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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Postby VFX » Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:18 am

The source of that information is not verified. As the Shoah holocaust was most likely invented by the USSR who had much to cover up (remember Katyn), the death of millions. Until fairly recently the USSR controlled all of Eastern Europe, which was basically an Empire albeit by another name. This was Stalinism. Ukraine and Belorussia were part of the USSR: any documents they had would be a part of the Soviet Union and controlled by the NKVD and KGB. It was they who gave false testimony through Polish intermediaries such as Rabbi Wise who through his agent quoted the 6 million figure at Nuremberg. The first session was presided over by the Soviet judge, Nikitchenko. The Soviet Special Commission to investigate Reich crimes were also implicit in the Katyn cover up.
The Reich special action group did execution Partisans and summarily and that was spoke about before. The data and figures presented have no validity but mere Soviet propaganda to hide their own iniquities not all discovered yet and blame it on the losers.
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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Postby Nessie » Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:44 am

VFX wrote:The source of that information is not verified. ....


That and various appeals to stay on topic and discuss the mass grave surveys have me curious. How do you verify the survey work done? You cannot go to the sites. You do not have detailed access to the equipment used or full details of what work was done and what was found. Even if you did have access and all the details, what skills and experience do you have to verify the archaeological work?
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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Postby VFX » Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:50 am

Nessie wrote:
That and various appeals to stay on topic and discuss the mass grave surveys have me curious. How do you verify the survey work done? You cannot go to the sites. You do not have detailed access to the equipment used or full details of what work was done and what was found. Even if you did have access and all the details, what skills and experience do you have to verify the archaeological work?

This is the point I was making to them, but got the normal abuse. Using "ground radar" is one thing, but knowing exactly what is down there means shovel work and forensic science. If you are talking to me I am not claiming anything except that I find the survey work interesting and would like to know more about it. Correlating ground radar with reported incidents is not hard enough evidence for me. As I mentioned: this grave site could be from Genghis Khans work.
In the end I have no idea what those radar images mean. I cannot correlate those with anything, they could be aliens down there or dinosaurs.
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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Postby Nessie » Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:55 am

VFX wrote:
Nessie wrote:
That and various appeals to stay on topic and discuss the mass grave surveys have me curious. How do you verify the survey work done? You cannot go to the sites. You do not have detailed access to the equipment used or full details of what work was done and what was found. Even if you did have access and all the details, what skills and experience do you have to verify the archaeological work?

This is the point I was making to them, but got the normal abuse. Using "ground radar" is one thing, but knowing exactly what is down there means shovel work and forensic science. If you are talking to me I am not claiming anything except that I find the survey work interesting and would like to know more about it. Correlating ground radar with reported incidents is not hard enough evidence for me. As I mentioned: this grave site could be from Genghis Khans work.


So, you are not in a position to actually verify anything. You should stop making suggestions that is what you are doing. I have no archaeological training, I have been to a good few scenes of crimes and a couple of archaeological digs to see the work (Roman sites).

At TII, no invasive surveys were conducted that evidenced large disturbances underground, which verify that there was a lot of digging and replacement of earth. A walk over survey found cremains on the surface. It is reasonable to deduce that there is cremains under the surface of the ground in the disturbed ground.
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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Postby VFX » Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:59 am

There may be many things under the ground but to ascertain what they are needs forensic analysis corroborated by other evidence. Guesswork here is not good enough. It needs to be determined the age etc and corroborate with other evidence such as buttons or anything else, including historical reports.
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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Postby Nessie » Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:09 am

VFX wrote:There may be many things under the ground but to ascertain what they are needs forensic analysis corroborated by other evidence. Guesswork here is not good enough. It needs to be determined the age etc and corroborate with other evidence such as buttons or anything else, including historical reports.


There was no guess work. A qualified forensic archeologist identified the remains found during the walk over survey as bones. Areas, where no remains were suspected, were dug and items relating to the Nazis and WWII were found. Then there was the Polish Report from 1945, which did excavate the same area and found bones, decaying remains and a terrible smell of burning. Plus aerial photos from 1944 show the ground was disturbed and rectangular outlines, evidencing large excavations that had been filled in.
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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Postby VFX » Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:14 am

Nessie wrote:
VFX wrote:There may be many things under the ground but to ascertain what they are needs forensic analysis corroborated by other evidence. Guesswork here is not good enough. It needs to be determined the age etc and corroborate with other evidence such as buttons or anything else, including historical reports.


There was no guess work. A qualified forensic archeologist identified the remains found during the walk over survey as bones. Areas, where no remains were suspected, were dug and items relating to the Nazis and WWII were found. Then there was the Polish Report from 1945, which did excavate the same area and found bones, decaying remains and a terrible smell of burning. Plus aerial photos from 1944 show the ground was disturbed and rectangular outlines, evidencing large excavations that had been filled in.

I am not looking at that particular site and not related it to any event I am concerned about. These could have been the remains of dead army soldiers. I have no idea. An archaeologist is not good enough outside of his own field to seek other clues such as hair samples etc. Where were the artifacts taken, what are the results. Who died and who did the killing and what for. Guessing is not evidence and you should know this by now.
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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Sep 09, 2018 11:17 am

Can’t the geniuses come up with at least one new argument against all the evidence?
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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Postby Nessie » Sun Sep 09, 2018 12:36 pm

VFX wrote:
Nessie wrote:
VFX wrote:There may be many things under the ground but to ascertain what they are needs forensic analysis corroborated by other evidence. Guesswork here is not good enough. It needs to be determined the age etc and corroborate with other evidence such as buttons or anything else, including historical reports.


There was no guess work. A qualified forensic archeologist identified the remains found during the walk over survey as bones. Areas, where no remains were suspected, were dug and items relating to the Nazis and WWII were found. Then there was the Polish Report from 1945, which did excavate the same area and found bones, decaying remains and a terrible smell of burning. Plus aerial photos from 1944 show the ground was disturbed and rectangular outlines, evidencing large excavations that had been filled in.

I am not looking at that particular site and not related it to any event I am concerned about. These could have been the remains of dead army soldiers. I have no idea. An archaeologist is not good enough outside of his own field to seek other clues such as hair samples etc. Where were the artifacts taken, what are the results. Who died and who did the killing and what for. Guessing is not evidence and you should know this by now.


You are the one guessing, since you clearly have little to no knowledge of the archaeological work you are trying to criticise.
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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Postby VFX » Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:49 pm

Take a chill pill Nessie and explain carefully how one archaeologist can produce enough evidence to conclusively prove anything without the assistance of people in other areas of expertise.
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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Postby montgomery » Sun Sep 09, 2018 4:42 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Can’t the geniuses come up with at least one new argument against all the evidence?


Please stop the personal attacks. they do nothing to bolster your argument or your reputation.

The counter argument by VFX seems to be reasonable and carries some weight. And fwiw, the argument of mass graves being sacred and not to be disturbed, really doesn't work. If this site is to be used for evidence then just like any other mass graves, the forensics experts need to be permitted to do a complete job.

Otherwise the assumptions need to be considered as FWIW.

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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Postby Reaktori » Sun Sep 09, 2018 4:45 pm

Your thinly veiled cheerleading is so, so pathetic Monty, and it would make me feel embarrassed even as a denier.

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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Postby montgomery » Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:02 pm

Reaktori wrote:Your thinly veiled cheerleading is so, so pathetic Monty, and it would make me feel embarrassed even as a denier.


I'm cheerleading the good efforts being put forward here on this forum by all, with the exception of one holdout. I hope you aren't going to be another like him. Please, it only discredits those who stoop to those tactics. This is a Skeptics' forum and skeptics don't deserve such abuse.

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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Postby scrmbldggs » Sun Sep 09, 2018 6:33 pm

Isn't it a bit early to be snowing?
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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Postby Nessie » Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:28 pm

VFX wrote:Take a chill pill Nessie and explain carefully how one archaeologist can produce enough evidence to conclusively prove anything without the assistance of people in other areas of expertise.


Since I have not claimed archeology alone proves what happened at the AR camps, because they cannot, I have no reason to answer you.
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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Postby Nessie » Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:43 pm

montgomery wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Can’t the geniuses come up with at least one new argument against all the evidence?


Please stop the personal attacks. they do nothing to bolster your argument or your reputation.

The counter argument by VFX seems to be reasonable and carries some weight. And fwiw, the argument of mass graves being sacred and not to be disturbed, really doesn't work. If this site is to be used for evidence then just like any other mass graves, the forensics experts need to be permitted to do a complete job.

Otherwise the assumptions need to be considered as FWIW.


A quick summary of excavations at the AR camps. In 1944 to 1945 there were various Soviet and Polish excavations, where there was often extensive digging and huge disturbances of the remains buried there. Sobibor and Madjanek ended up with large memorials to contain recovered remains. TII had large areas concreted over to try and end the grave robbing that had started shortly after the Soviets had arrived. The Soviets allowed the sites to be memorialised in the 1950s-60s and then they were pretty much abandoned.

After the end of the Soviet Union the sites were open to more work and in need of tidying up. Belzec had a survey whereby numerous bore holes were drilled into the ground, most of which found and so disturbed buried remains. I am sure there were excavations at the Chelmno forest grave site as well. At Sobibor, there were excavations whereby surface scrapes were done, rather than dig into the areas of remains.

The only non-invasive archaeological work has been that by Staffs Uni at TII. They still disturbed some remains as they found, gathered and then buried cremains that were lying about on the surface.

No religion or culture is open to and happily allows the dead to be disturbed. Fact is, since the end of WWII all of the AR camps have been excavated at least once and it is only now that sophisticated non-invasive techniques are available, are non-invasive studies being conducted.

You need to bear in mind, the mass graves at the AR camps are unique. All other mass graves have identifiable bodies in them. Only the AR camps have large areas of cremated remains mixed into the ground. It is very limited what forensics can do with cremated remains compared to skeletons.
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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Postby montgomery » Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:13 pm

Nessie wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Can’t the geniuses come up with at least one new argument against all the evidence?


Please stop the personal attacks. they do nothing to bolster your argument or your reputation.

The counter argument by VFX seems to be reasonable and carries some weight. And fwiw, the argument of mass graves being sacred and not to be disturbed, really doesn't work. If this site is to be used for evidence then just like any other mass graves, the forensics experts need to be permitted to do a complete job.

Otherwise the assumptions need to be considered as FWIW.


A quick summary of excavations at the AR camps. In 1944 to 1945 there were various Soviet and Polish excavations, where there was often extensive digging and huge disturbances of the remains buried there. Sobibor and Madjanek ended up with large memorials to contain recovered remains. TII had large areas concreted over to try and end the grave robbing that had started shortly after the Soviets had arrived. The Soviets allowed the sites to be memorialised in the 1950s-60s and then they were pretty much abandoned.

After the end of the Soviet Union the sites were open to more work and in need of tidying up. Belzec had a survey whereby numerous bore holes were drilled into the ground, most of which found and so disturbed buried remains. I am sure there were excavations at the Chelmno forest grave site as well. At Sobibor, there were excavations whereby surface scrapes were done, rather than dig into the areas of remains.

The only non-invasive archaeological work has been that by Staffs Uni at TII. They still disturbed some remains as they found, gathered and then buried cremains that were lying about on the surface.

No religion or culture is open to and happily allows the dead to be disturbed. Fact is, since the end of WWII all of the AR camps have been excavated at least once and it is only now that sophisticated non-invasive techniques are available, are non-invasive studies being conducted.

You need to bear in mind, the mass graves at the AR camps are unique. All other mass graves have identifiable bodies in them. Only the AR camps have large areas of cremated remains mixed into the ground. It is very limited what forensics can do with cremated remains compared to skeletons.


I've read your post and I find no reason to change what I said in reply. Nothing has changed, and not the fact that no religion wishes to have their people's graves disturbed. There's no need for me to repeat that it does happen regardless, when forensic experts dig up mass graves. That seems to be the only issue at question here, all your other information aside.

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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Postby VFX » Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:37 pm

This thread is about some mass grave in the Ukraine. JeffK is mentioning it due to a book he is reading.
The survey states: For nine days in May~June 2017, archaeologists from the UK conducted a three-part non-invasive ground-penetrating radar survey at sites of World War II mass killing and burial of Jewish victims in Nazi-occupied Rohatyn (now part of western Ukraine0
This physical survey was part of a research project spanning two years, which was intended to establish the physical boundaries of the mass graves, to enhance protection and commemoration of the sites.
Rohatyn Wiki

In the inter-war period , the city is Polish.In September 1939 , it was occupied by the Red Army and then attached to the Soviet Unionwhich eventually offered it to the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic.. City status is then granted. It is today an important road junction.
It is strange that this small Wiki report does not mention Reich occupation. They clearly were occupied.
Image
This thread is NOT about the Einsatz camps though possibly the same technique could be used at other sites. What interests me is the viability of using this technique elsewhere. Nothing else is claimed.
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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Postby montgomery » Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:42 pm

VFX wrote:This thread is about some mass grave in the Ukraine. JeffK is mentioning it due to a book he is reading.
The survey states: For nine days in May~June 2017, archaeologists from the UK conducted a three-part non-invasive ground-penetrating radar survey at sites of World War II mass killing and burial of Jewish victims in Nazi-occupied Rohatyn (now part of western Ukraine0
This physical survey was part of a research project spanning two years, which was intended to establish the physical boundaries of the mass graves, to enhance protection and commemoration of the sites.
Rohatyn Wiki

In the inter-war period , the city is Polish.In September 1939 , it was occupied by the Red Army and then attached to the Soviet Unionwhich eventually offered it to the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic.. City status is then granted. It is today an important road junction.
It is strange that this report does not mention Reich occupation. They clearly were occupied.
https://images.slideplayer.com/15/4733639/slides/slide_8.jpg
This thread is NOT about the Einsatz camps though possibly the same technique could be used at other sites. What interests me is the viability of using this technique elsewhere. Nothing else is claimed.


Exactly! And I tried to make that point with Nessie. He's being completely unreasonble to expect that everybody just automatically adopt hie reasoning. And then when Nessie buys into the spam and personal insults by Stat.Mech., he is taking the lowroad and is sacrificing his credibility so he can reward that spam crap with a thanks.

Nessie needs to come back from the dark side which is being represented on this board by that S.M. clown!

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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Postby VFX » Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:53 pm

montgomery wrote:
Exactly! And I tried to make that point with Nessie. He's being completely unreasonble to expect that everybody just automatically adopt hie reasoning. And then when Nessie buys into the spam and personal insults by Stat.Mech., he is taking the lowroad and is sacrificing his credibility so he can reward that spam crap with a thanks.

Nessie needs to come back from the dark side which is being represented on this board by that S.M. clown!

This is often his method of derailing. In this context the thread was about the special scientific techniques to find old graves: this was used in alleged atrocities in some smallish Polish town. I find the reading fascinating. Here these techniques could have been discussed and how perhaps they could be adapted to other places, looking at the pros and cons.
Instead he goes on a rant about the Einsatz camps which has nothing to do with this thread. Once the pros and cons and exciting new archaeological methodology is worked out including its potential application then another thread about its potential use at Treblinka say could be spoken about. For instance does it work in marshy soil as at Auschwitz, in the desert, so many exciting things to speak off. How far back in time can this technique be used: so many questions.
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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Postby Nessie » Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:42 am

My point is that how the graves are dealt with is changing. First time around, just after the war, there were scant respect and massive disturbance. The second time around after the Iron Curtain came down, a more detailed and respectful approach was made, but it was still invasive. Now, a non invasive method is available due to technological improvements.

It is likely that the future of recording and surveying of mass graves, especially those in the east outwith the camps, where were Jews shot, will be by non invasive surveys.
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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Postby VFX » Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:48 am

Nessie wrote:My point is that how the graves are dealt with is changing. First time around, just after the war, there were scant respect and massive disturbance. The second time around after the Iron Curtain came down, a more detailed and respectful approach was made, but it was still invasive. Now, a non invasive method is available due to technological improvements.

It is likely that the future of recording and surveying of mass graves, especially those in the east outwith the camps, where were Jews shot, will be by non invasive surveys.

It has its place, but like they do in the Antarctic it is possible to get "core samples" which are invasive to a small extent to determine the real composition. I think the best this can do is to give an indication of a burial site, evidence perhaps for future limited invasive sampling.
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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Postby Nessie » Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:12 am

VFX wrote:
Nessie wrote:My point is that how the graves are dealt with is changing. First time around, just after the war, there were scant respect and massive disturbance. The second time around after the Iron Curtain came down, a more detailed and respectful approach was made, but it was still invasive. Now, a non invasive method is available due to technological improvements.

It is likely that the future of recording and surveying of mass graves, especially those in the east outwith the camps, where were Jews shot, will be by non invasive surveys.

It has its place, but like they do in the Antarctic it is possible to get "core samples" which are invasive to a small extent to determine the real composition. I think the best this can do is to give an indication of a burial site, evidence perhaps for future limited invasive sampling.


I know it is an AR camp, but if you are fine with bore hole testing, do you accept that large areas of cremated remains have been found at Belzec? Summary here;

http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... eview.html

"The total surface of the mass graves is estimated at 21,000 cubic metres. At least a dozen graves still contain today unburnt, partially mummified or decomposing corpses."
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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Postby VFX » Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:18 am

Nessie wrote:
I know it is an AR camp, but if you are fine with bore hole testing, do you accept that large areas of cremated remains have been found at Belzec? Summary here;

This thread is about Rohatyn which is not an Einsatz campt but a massacre site. I accept few remains were found anywhere.
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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Postby Nessie » Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:07 am

No it is about surveys. You have dodged evidence which proves a large area of cremated remains. That is just further evidence you are trying to re-write history.
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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Postby VFX » Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:32 am

If it is about surveys then talk about surveys and how they are performed within the context of this thread. This thread should be speaking of the viability of this method to detect such remains. Your passion for rotting flesh and bones is understood: I understand your hunger. Read through the data on the link page one and give your considered opinion on this form of evidence. Take your time. People are sick of your knee jerk reactions. You seem to do no study.
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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Postby Nessie » Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:11 pm

VFX wrote:If it is about surveys then talk about surveys and how they are performed within the context of this thread. This thread should be speaking of the viability of this method to detect such remains. Your passion for rotting flesh and bones is understood: I understand your hunger. Read through the data on the link page one and give your considered opinion on this form of evidence. Take your time. People are sick of your knee jerk reactions. You seem to do no study.


I respond quickly for the same reason others such as Stat Mech does. We have been over this and many other topics time and time again. Deniers rarely bring anything new to the debate. They never produce new evidence. So we just go over the same stuff.

My opinion on this forum of evidence is not important. That non invasive archaeology is an accepted practice involving the use of technology that been improved over the past number of years means I accept its results. I defer to those with the necessary qualifications and experience unless something really stands out as being wrong. I look for others who have the same level of qualifications and experience to provide the proper critique of any work done.

Deniers arrogantly think that they can express an opinion on all sorts of topics they have no expertise in at all and that is equal to evidence. It is not.
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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Postby VFX » Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:34 pm

Nessie wrote:
My opinion on this forum of evidence is not important. That non invasive archaeology is an accepted practice involving the use of technology that been improved over the past number of years means I accept its results. I defer to those with the necessary qualifications and experience unless something really stands out as being wrong. I look for others who have the same level of qualifications and experience to provide the proper critique of any work done.

Deniers arrogantly think that they can express an opinion on all sorts of topics they have no expertise in at all and that is equal to evidence. It is not.


The idea of forums is to read articles and to form opinions, perhaps have them challenged. You may accept the results of an inferior way of obtaining evidence without back supporting evidence. If this was a murder case I think it might be judged somewhat inadmissible, any jury would be asked to dismiss it by the residing Judge.

I am glad you rely so much on authority without critiquing their veracity Nessie. Revisionists look at both sides of the issues and weigh them up based on prior knowledge.
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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Postby Nessie » Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:41 pm

VFX wrote:
Nessie wrote:
My opinion on this forum of evidence is not important. That non invasive archaeology is an accepted practice involving the use of technology that been improved over the past number of years means I accept its results. I defer to those with the necessary qualifications and experience unless something really stands out as being wrong. I look for others who have the same level of qualifications and experience to provide the proper critique of any work done.

Deniers arrogantly think that they can express an opinion on all sorts of topics they have no expertise in at all and that is equal to evidence. It is not.


The idea of forums is to read articles and to form opinions, perhaps have them challenged.


Plus, to provide evidence to back up claims.

You may accept the results of an inferior way of obtaining evidence without back supporting evidence. If this was a murder case I think it might be judged somewhat inadmissible, any jury would be asked to dismiss it by the residing Judge.


Multiple corroborating witnesses. Accused who admit to the crime. Physical, documentary and other evidence. Motive, opportunity, ability and guilty conduct after the crime. Any judge or jury would find an accused guilty.

I am glad you rely so much on authority without critiquing their veracity Nessie. Revisionists look at both sides of the issues and weigh them up based on prior knowledge.


You deceptively misrepresented what I actually said. I said I would challenge anything obviously wrong and I would look to have others suitably qualified to check the work done. Most revisionists have {!#%@} all knowledge of the topic and the methods to investigate it.
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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:58 pm

>> And fwiw, the argument of mass graves being sacred and not to be disturbed, really doesn't work. If this site is to be used for evidence then just like any other mass graves, the forensics experts need to be permitted to do a complete job.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... o-science/
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