Mass Grave Surveys

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Mass Grave Surveys

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Thu Dec 28, 2017 2:17 am

http://rohatynjewishheritage.org/en/projects/mass-grave-survey-2017/

I thought I’d share this, it’s a survey of a mass grave in the Ukraine. I don’t know about this one but I’ve got a book coming about the Ukraine.
Last edited by Jeffk 1970 on Fri Sep 07, 2018 5:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: Mass Grave Survey in the Ukraine

Post by Balmoral95 » Thu Dec 28, 2017 3:59 am

No worries, BRoI will be back tomorrow to fill you in from the staggering amount of research and reading he's done. Probs solved.

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Re: Mass Grave Survey in the Ukraine

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Thu Dec 28, 2017 4:32 am

LOL, I won’t know, I have the rabbit on ignore.
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: Mass Grave Survey in the Ukraine

Post by iwh » Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:15 pm

Here is a also a good resource:

http://yahadmap.org/#map/q_pays.1/
For a debunking of new boy on the block John Wear see:

https://wearswarts.wordpress.com

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Re: Mass Grave Survey in the Ukraine

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:21 pm

very tangential but interesting re: latter day discovery of graves in a very different context - and for a Leadbelly connection (I grew up on Leadbelly, Josh White, etc): "Bodies believed to be those of 95 black forced-labor prisoners from Jim Crow era unearthed in Sugar Land after one man’s quest"
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Re: Mass Grave Survey in the Ukraine

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:25 pm

A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: Mass Grave Survey in the Ukraine

Post by Balmoral95 » Thu Jul 19, 2018 3:44 am


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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Fri Sep 07, 2018 5:23 pm

I decided to change the title of the topic so I can add this:

https://nationalpost.com/news/world/res ... jewish-law
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Post by montgomery » Fri Sep 07, 2018 6:36 pm

The National Post sounds like it's embarking on the first stages of holocaust revision. They are unwittingly detracting from the gas chambers legend. This calls for closer and closer analysis of the latter by skeptics.

I can't see how the National Post, or *whoever is writing for them, can float this idea without digging to identify the bodies. Is the idea even welcome yet?

* not in name, in motive.

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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Post by Reaktori » Fri Sep 07, 2018 7:33 pm

Will there ever be a day where you manage to not make yourself look like a cretin?

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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Fri Sep 07, 2018 7:48 pm

montgomery wrote:The National Post sounds like it's embarking on the first stages of holocaust revision. They are unwittingly detracting from the gas chambers legend. This calls for closer and closer analysis of the latter by skeptics.

I can't see how the National Post, or *whoever is writing for them, can float this idea without digging to identify the bodies. Is the idea even welcome yet?

* not in name, in motive.
Would you like a lesson on what the Holocaust even was?
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Post by Nessie » Fri Sep 07, 2018 8:05 pm

montgomery wrote:The National Post sounds like it's embarking on the first stages of holocaust revision.
Please explain further.
They are unwittingly detracting from the gas chambers legend.
Knowledge is not finite. Learning more about other murders does not mean the gas chambers are somehow lessened.
This calls for closer and closer analysis of the latter by skeptics.
I am beginning to think you think scepticism means doubting everything and believing nothing.
I can't see how the National Post, or *whoever is writing for them, can float this idea without digging to identify the bodies. Is the idea even welcome yet?

* not in name, in motive.
Non invasive archaeology is a recognised form of archaeology and it is widely practiced;

https://msu.edu/~aarondan/methodsofarchaeology.htm
https://kingsclereheritageassociation.w ... nd-survey/
https://news.nationalgeographic.com/201 ... gal-video/

It is particularly appropriate to graves. All cultures prefer to leave the buried undisturbed.
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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Sep 07, 2018 8:38 pm

As an aside ... the gas chambers focus of deniers, and the game they play that non-gas chamber killings are some kind of challenge to some "official story," is a pathetic straw man.

Hilberg had 2,700,000 Jews perishing in German-run camps (six of them death camps), not all by gassing operations; 150,000+ Jews perishing in Romanian and Serbian camps; and 2,200,000+ in open-air shootings and from privation.

A tabulation posted by Nick Terry in this forum in 2016 updates Hilberg as follows: in 8 camps, mostly from gassing operations, slightly fewer than 2,700,000 Jewish deaths; mass shootings maximum 2,000,000; and from privation, death marches, other KLs, labor camps, Romania about 700,000.

So about 50-53% in camps with gassing operations, not all of these victims killed by gassing. Or just more than half the victims in these death camps. And just shy of 50% of the victims perishing by other means, most of them in mass shooting operations carried out by the Germans.

Any honest discussion of "the gas chambers legend" needs to start with numbers something like these. Pretending that scholars or historians - anyone other deniers and the uninformed, actually - reduce the genocide of European Jews to gassing (and a master plan and 6 million) is nothing more than a disingenuous tactic.
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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Post by montgomery » Fri Sep 07, 2018 11:01 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Any honest discussion of "the gas chambers legend" needs to start with numbers something like these. Pretending that scholars or historians - anyone other deniers and the uninformed, actually - reduce the genocide of European Jews to gassing (and a master plan and 6 million) is nothing more than a disingenuous tactic.
Some discussions of "the gas chambers legend" begins with the premise that there were no homicidal gas chambers. I accept that as a theory that can and should be argued, just as much as the lies and exaggerations of Auschwitz 2 should be argued. So far, due to the lack of credibility earned by this forum's participants, I have no reason to change my mind from being anything but neutral. That's being generous to people like you who aren't capable of conducting themselves in a respectable manner.

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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Post by montgomery » Fri Sep 07, 2018 11:21 pm

Nessie wrote:
montgomery wrote:The National Post sounds like it's embarking on the first stages of holocaust revision.
Please explain further.
Check out the writer and check out the comments. I'm not alone in my suspicions. Also be aware that the NP is considered by many in Canada to be a rightist rag.
They are unwittingly detracting from the gas chambers legend.
Knowledge is not finite. Learning more about other murders does not mean the gas chambers are somehow lessened.
numbers of people are.
This calls for closer and closer analysis of the latter by skeptics.
I am beginning to think you think scepticism means doubting everything and believing nothing.
I've believed from the beginning that nobody on this board can accept a person to be a skeptic. They want denial and they've hounded me ad nauseum to get some. Then when they fail they go off in a batsh-t crazed tantrum of rudeness.
I can't see how the National Post, or *whoever is writing for them, can float this idea without digging to identify the bodies. Is the idea even welcome yet?

* not in name, in motive.
Check out the other articles by that writer and check out the comments on that article. I'm not alone in my skepticism.
True in many cases.
It is particularly appropriate to graves. All cultures prefer to leave the buried undisturbed.
Not so true! It's likely the exception now after nearly 75 years. I know of many exceptions to the rule, even when the bodies are still fresh. Can you mention any similarities?

Forensic investigators have little concern for what we prefer.

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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Post by Nessie » Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:41 am

montgomery wrote:The National Post sounds like it's embarking on the first stages of holocaust revision.
Nessie wrote:Please explain further.
Check out the writer and check out the comments. I'm not alone in my suspicions. Also be aware that the NP is considered by many in Canada to be a rightist rag.
There is nothing in the comments to back up your suspicions. There is no claim being made of revision. I have checked out the reporter who wrote the article and it is the only thing I can find he has done on the Holocaust.

You are finding suspicions where there are none. Which backs up this comment by me;
I am beginning to think you think scepticism means doubting everything and believing nothing.
I've believed from the beginning that nobody on this board can accept a person to be a skeptic. They want denial and they've hounded me ad nauseum to get some. Then when they fail they go off in a batsh-t crazed tantrum of rudeness.
It is because of your behaviour and how you suspect everything, even though there is no reason to suspect it.
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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Post by Nessie » Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:47 am

montgomery wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Any honest discussion of "the gas chambers legend" needs to start with numbers something like these. Pretending that scholars or historians - anyone other deniers and the uninformed, actually - reduce the genocide of European Jews to gassing (and a master plan and 6 million) is nothing more than a disingenuous tactic.
Some discussions of "the gas chambers legend" begins with the premise that there were no homicidal gas chambers. I accept that as a theory that can and should be argued, just as much as the lies and exaggerations of Auschwitz 2 should be argued. So far, due to the lack of credibility earned by this forum's participants, I have no reason to change my mind from being anything but neutral. That's being generous to people like you who aren't capable of conducting themselves in a respectable manner.
You should not base your opinion on a historical event on the behaviour of others. The posters here do not lack credibility because they can be rude.

You should base your opinion on the evidence presented. When verified, primary documentary evidence is presented showing the construction of gas chambers/cellars at the Birkenau kremas is regarded with scepticism, that is the behaviour of a denier, not a genuine sceptic.

That results in the sceptics here becoming sceptical of you and your motives for good reason.
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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:56 am

For sure - and it also needs to be said, IMO, that it is mischaracterizing the results of a great deal of research as a "gas chamber legend" to present, as this member has, according to Nessie's fisking of his persistent waffling, non-gassing murders of Jews as "detracting" from a putative obsession with murder of Jews by gas.

Misstating what scholars generally maintain and what people posting here argue is a low tactic, comforting perhaps to those who deploy it but irrelevant to understanding what happened and historical debates about how and why.

Again, for the slow learners, nearly half the Jews who perished in the Holocaust died in ways other than by gassing. That's what has been argued time and again in this thread, based on years of research by scholars and historians. Pretending we've been saying something different is dishonest.

As Nessie said, the fact that about half the victims perished by means other than gas chambers doesn't diminish the monstrosity of the crime of mass gassings - but by keeping all the ways in which Jews were killed during the war years in view, and by whom, we gain a more complete understanding of the genocide.
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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Post by montgomery » Sun Sep 09, 2018 12:48 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:For sure - and it also needs to be said, IMO, that it is mischaracterizing the results of a great deal of research as a "gas chamber legend" to present, as this member has, according to Nessie's fisking of his persistent waffling, non-gassing murders of Jews as "detracting" from a putative obsession with murder of Jews by gas.

Misstating what scholars generally maintain and what people posting here argue is a low tactic, comforting perhaps to those who deploy it but irrelevant to understanding what happened and historical debates about how and why.

Again, for the slow learners, nearly half the Jews who perished in the Holocaust died in ways other than by gassing. That's what has been argued time and again in this thread, based on years of research by scholars and historians. Pretending we've been saying something different is dishonest.

As Nessie said, the fact that about half the victims perished by means other than gas chambers doesn't diminish the monstrosity of the crime of mass gassings - but by keeping all the ways in which Jews were killed during the war years in view, and by whom, we gain a more complete understanding of the genocide.
We're going to progress through this discussion systematically and that means we'll analyze the 'gas chamber' charges and numbers claimed on the basis of how they can stand alone. This doesn't have to detract from the stories of other methods as long as we don't start to run out of victims. Please stop trying to dictate to others what they are allowed to discuss. There's no great urgency and there's definitely no reason why I should offer any holocaust denial when in fact I'm not prepared to deny anything yet.

cheers, montgomery.

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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Post by Denying-History » Sun Sep 09, 2018 12:58 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:For sure - and it also needs to be said, IMO, that it is mischaracterizing the results of a great deal of research as a "gas chamber legend" to present, as this member has, according to Nessie's fisking of his persistent waffling, non-gassing murders of Jews as "detracting" from a putative obsession with murder of Jews by gas.

Misstating what scholars generally maintain and what people posting here argue is a low tactic, comforting perhaps to those who deploy it but irrelevant to understanding what happened and historical debates about how and why.

Again, for the slow learners, nearly half the Jews who perished in the Holocaust died in ways other than by gassing. That's what has been argued time and again in this thread, based on years of research by scholars and historians. Pretending we've been saying something different is dishonest.

As Nessie said, the fact that about half the victims perished by means other than gas chambers doesn't diminish the monstrosity of the crime of mass gassings - but by keeping all the ways in which Jews were killed during the war years in view, and by whom, we gain a more complete understanding of the genocide.
Who really knows at this point. It could be much lower then 50-50.
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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Post by Balmoral95 » Sun Sep 09, 2018 4:16 am

The whole premise of the alleged holocaust is based on faulty figures, extreme biases, racism, zionistic politics, allied corruption with very suspect witnesses. This is why such discussions are important.
Well there's a facile statement ripe for discussion. So go to it, and this time you might want to mention that the Germans were involved... at least somehow? Unless that's impolite?

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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Sep 09, 2018 4:19 am

Is VFX posting and then deleting his posts again?
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Post by VFX » Sun Sep 09, 2018 4:31 am

Balmoral95 wrote: Well there's a facile statement ripe for discussion. So go to it, and this time you might want to mention that the Germans were involved... at least somehow? Unless that's impolite?
This thread is about "mass grave surveys" not anything else. It needs to be established if these graves are what is claimed. It is doubted if the methods used are forensic to determine DNA, cause of death. Interesting topic thanks Jeff.
This is basically an indication of a mass grave, but like at Katyn much real forensics needs to be done. People can talk about it for years.
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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Post by Denying-History » Sun Sep 09, 2018 4:32 am

VFX wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote: Well there's a facile statement ripe for discussion. So go to it, and this time you might want to mention that the Germans were involved... at least somehow? Unless that's impolite?
This thread is about "mass grave surveys" not anything else. It needs to be established if these graves are what is claimed. It is doubted if the methods used are forensic to determine DNA, cause of death. Interesting topic thanks Jeff.
This is basically an indication of a mass grave, but like at Katyn much real forensics needs to be done. People can talk about it for years.
They have been done for years...
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Post by Balmoral95 » Sun Sep 09, 2018 4:38 am

VFX wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote: Well there's a facile statement ripe for discussion. So go to it, and this time you might want to mention that the Germans were involved... at least somehow? Unless that's impolite?
This thread is about "mass grave surveys" not anything else. It needs to be established if these graves are what is claimed. It is doubted if the methods used are forensic to determine DNA, cause of death. Interesting topic thanks Jeff.
This is basically an indication of a mass grave, but like at Katyn much real forensics needs to be done. People can talk about it for years.
No, it isn't. Done with this arsehole.

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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Post by VFX » Sun Sep 09, 2018 4:43 am

Balmoral95 wrote:
No, it isn't. Done with this arsehole.

New &Improved!
Yes it is: stick to the topic. Gracious thank you. People need to dig into the ground to establish facts, bullet holes, DNA, hair samples and other evidence such as buttons, if they were not naked. If as people here suspect, the evidence will be corroborated and then speculation becomes fact. Even then the perpetrators of the crime must be determined: was it the Nazis or was it the Soviets like at Katyn. If the forensic people can determine facts from 500 years ago they can certainly do this.
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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Post by Balmoral95 » Sun Sep 09, 2018 4:47 am

VFX wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:
No, it isn't. Done with this arsehole.

New &Improved!
Yes it is: stick to the topic. Gracious thank you. People need to dig into the ground to establish facts, bullet holes, DNA, hair samples and other evidence such as buttons, if they were not naked. If as people here suspect, the evidence will be corroborated and then speculation becomes fact. Even then the perpetrators of the crime must be determined: was it the Nazis or was it the Soviets like at Katyn. If the forensic people can determine facts from 500 years ago they can certainly do this.
So you are not a forensic person by profession?

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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Post by VFX » Sun Sep 09, 2018 4:51 am

Balmoral95 wrote:
So you are not a forensic person by profession?
Some time dabbling in it and know the ins and outs. This is a thread for the common people to contribute to look at the evidence not to blindly accept some claims on faith alone due to ignorance. It would seem you are attempting to derail the topic. If there is some hard evidence of these graves then could someone please share it.
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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Post by scrmbldggs » Sun Sep 09, 2018 4:59 am

Established royalty gets to derail, common newcommoners get to contribute, doh.
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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Post by Denying-History » Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:00 am

VFX wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:
So you are not a forensic person by profession?
Some time dabbling in it and know the ins and outs. This is a thread for the common people to contribute to look at the evidence not to blindly accept some claims on faith alone due to ignorance. It would seem you are attempting to derail the topic. If there is some hard evidence of these graves then could someone please share it.
I feel like you’ve made like deleted and replied again like three replies now. But I haven’t really been paying attention.

Anyway, how goes proving the AR camps were rouge operations?
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Post by scrmbldggs » Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:01 am

Only three? :laff:
Last edited by scrmbldggs on Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Post by Balmoral95 » Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:01 am

VFX wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:
So you are not a forensic person by profession?
Some time dabbling in it and know the ins and outs. This is a thread for the common people to contribute to look at the evidence not to blindly accept some claims on faith alone due to ignorance. It would seem you are attempting to derail the topic. If there is some hard evidence of these graves then could someone please share it.
I can see you are nervous answering direct questions and that it takes you 5 minutes to answer a simple yes or no question.

And don't worry about deleting your long post. It was recorded, along with this one.

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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:08 am

Dabbling? LOL, in other words, no, I am not, I am a dabbler and a coward, because this thread is for "common people" to spin up nonsense, not where people with training and experience in the field get to tell me I am full of it.
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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Post by Denying-History » Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:11 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Dabbling? LOL, in other words, no, I am not, I am a dabbler and a coward, because this thread is for "common people" to spin up nonsense, not where people with training and experience in the field get to tell me I am full of it.
:) didn’t realize you did field work! May I see your GPR?

Lol Jokes aside generally the debates of burial space or how many bodies is generally for those who carry a pocket calculator.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Post by VFX » Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:11 am

Denying-History wrote:
Anyway, how goes proving the AR camps were rouge operations?
Keep on the intention of the thread please which is to do with the Mass Grave Surveys. This is not concluded, so no one should be able to jump to the Einsatz camp situation based on this alone. This thread is interesting in itself for its own purposes. Who knows who the victims and the perpetrators were if there were. Is there evidence that these are not just old war graves. The area is closely correlated with eye witness testimony of an alleged atrocity. This is in no way verified at this point.
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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Post by Balmoral95 » Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:12 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Dabbling? LOL, in other words, no, I am not, I am a dabbler and a coward, because this thread is for "common people" to spin up nonsense, not where people with training and experience in the field get to tell me I am full of it.
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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Post by Balmoral95 » Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:13 am

VFX wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
Anyway, how goes proving the AR camps were rouge operations?
Keep on the intention of the thread please which is to do with the Mass Grave Surveys. This is not concluded, so no one should be able to jump to the Einsatz camp situation based on this alone. This thread is interesting in itself for its own purposes. Who knows who the victims and the perpetrators were if there were. Is there evidence that these are not just old war graves. The area is closely correlated with eye witness testimony of an alleged atrocity. This is in no way verified at this point.
Who told you it is "unverified"?

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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Post by VFX » Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:17 am

Balmoral95 wrote:
VFX wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
Anyway, how goes proving the AR camps were rouge operations?
Keep on the intention of the thread please which is to do with the Mass Grave Surveys. This is not concluded, so no one should be able to jump to the Einsatz camp situation based on this alone. This thread is interesting in itself for its own purposes. Who knows who the victims and the perpetrators were if there were. Is there evidence that these are not just old war graves. The area is closely correlated with eye witness testimony of an alleged atrocity. This is in no way verified at this point.
Who told you it is "unverified"?
If it is verified then there is little point this being on this subforum. Please talk about the integrity of the non intrusive survey method. In this instance please present the evidenced findings. There are interesting other threads that can spin off from this but in the mean time stick to the thread topic.
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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:18 am

Balmoral95 wrote:
VFX wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
Anyway, how goes proving the AR camps were rouge operations?
Keep on the intention of the thread please which is to do with the Mass Grave Surveys. This is not concluded, so no one should be able to jump to the Einsatz camp situation based on this alone. This thread is interesting in itself for its own purposes. Who knows who the victims and the perpetrators were if there were. Is there evidence that these are not just old war graves. The area is closely correlated with eye witness testimony of an alleged atrocity. This is in no way verified at this point.
Who told you it is "unverified"?
so I guess the answer to D-H's aside is, "I still can't."
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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Post by VFX » Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:21 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote: so I guess the answer to D-H's aside is, "I still can't."
What has this statement got to do with the topic of this thread. More focus is needed.
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