Himmler promising to exterminate Poles?

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Aaron Richards
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Himmler promising to exterminate Poles?

Post by Aaron Richards » Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:20 pm

Taken from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_crim ... ish_nation, apparently on the 15th of March 1940, Heinrich Himmler had stated the following in a speech held at Posen (Poznan) to concentration camp commanders:

"Später werden alle Polen aus dieser Welt verschwinden. Es ist erforderlich, dass das großdeutsche Volk die Vernichtung sämtlicher Polen als seine Hauptaufgabe versteht."

translates to:

"Later, all Poles will disappear from this world. It is necessary that the Greater German people understand the annihilation of all Poles as being their main task"


source: Piotrowski, Tadeusz (2007). Poland's Holocaust: Ethnic Strife, Collaboration with Occupying Forces and Genocide in the Second Republic, 1918–1947. McFarland & Company, p. 23. See also: Europa für Bürger original in the German language — 15. März (1940): Himmler spricht in Poznan vor den versammelten Kommandanten der Konzentrationslager. Eine seiner Aussagen: „Alle polnischen Facharbeiter werden in unserer Rüstungsindustrie eingesetzt. Später werden alle Polen aus dieser Welt verschwinden. Es ist erforderlich, dass das großdeutsche Volk die Vernichtung sämtlicher Polen als seine Hauptaufgabe versteht.“


I tried to do some further digging but could not find the original speech held at that date. Until now I was of the impression the Posen speeches didn't happen earlier than 1943? If true though, I was thinking, this Himmler statement would one-shot any and all carefully constructed denier arguments about there not being any German plan to exterminate Polish people, but I need something more concrete than a secondary source.

Couldn't find this alleged speech here either: http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaste ... eeches.htm

Any help would be appreciated.
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Re: Himmler promising to exterminate Poles?

Post by iwh » Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:22 pm

There seems to be no mention of the speech in Longerich's book on Himmler.
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Re: Himmler promising to exterminate Poles?

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:32 pm

iwh wrote:There seems to be no mention of the speech in Longerich's book on Himmler.


Sorry, Aaron, to stray off-topic but I’m considering getting the Longerich book. My issue is that I found Longerich’s book on the Holocaust a bore.

iwh, Stat Mech suggested the book, do you also recommend it?
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Re: Himmler promising to exterminate Poles?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:41 pm

It is really dull reading but indispensable IMO :)
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Re: Himmler promising to exterminate Poles?

Post by Balsamo » Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:56 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
iwh wrote:There seems to be no mention of the speech in Longerich's book on Himmler.


Sorry, Aaron, to stray off-topic but I’m considering getting the Longerich book. My issue is that I found Longerich’s book on the Holocaust a bore.

iwh, Stat Mech suggested the book, do you also recommend it?


His book on Himmler is a must read, much better than the one on Goebbels...

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Re: Himmler promising to exterminate Poles?

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:10 pm

Very well, I will get it and try to stay awake.

:D
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Re: Himmler promising to exterminate Poles?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:15 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:Very well, I will get it and try to stay awake.

:D

I suggest caffeine. And taking notes. And reading the tome whilst ensconced in a “hyperbaric oxygenation” capsule.
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Re: Himmler promising to exterminate Poles?

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:33 pm

LOL
Asked to explain why they hate Jews, anti-Semites contradict themselves. Jews are always showing off; they are hermetic and secretive. They will not assimilate; they assimilate only too well. They are too religious; they are too materialistic, and a threat to religion. They are uncultured; they have too much culture. They avoid manual work; they work too hard. They are miserly; they are ostentatious spenders. They are inveterate capitalists; they are born Communists. And so on.

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Re: Himmler promising to exterminate Poles?

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:34 pm

OK, Aaron, sorry. Let me see if I can find something for you.
Asked to explain why they hate Jews, anti-Semites contradict themselves. Jews are always showing off; they are hermetic and secretive. They will not assimilate; they assimilate only too well. They are too religious; they are too materialistic, and a threat to religion. They are uncultured; they have too much culture. They avoid manual work; they work too hard. They are miserly; they are ostentatious spenders. They are inveterate capitalists; they are born Communists. And so on.

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Re: Himmler promising to exterminate Poles?

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:16 pm

Aaron, the Auschwitz-Birkenau site references the same:

http://auschwitz.org/en/history/categories-of-prisoners/poles-in-auschwitz/
Asked to explain why they hate Jews, anti-Semites contradict themselves. Jews are always showing off; they are hermetic and secretive. They will not assimilate; they assimilate only too well. They are too religious; they are too materialistic, and a threat to religion. They are uncultured; they have too much culture. They avoid manual work; they work too hard. They are miserly; they are ostentatious spenders. They are inveterate capitalists; they are born Communists. And so on.

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Re: Himmler promising to exterminate Poles?

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:39 pm

I can’t find a complete speech for that day. It is referenced, I can find what Aaron posted above but nothing else about it.

Maybe if Sergey sees this he can shed more light on it.
Asked to explain why they hate Jews, anti-Semites contradict themselves. Jews are always showing off; they are hermetic and secretive. They will not assimilate; they assimilate only too well. They are too religious; they are too materialistic, and a threat to religion. They are uncultured; they have too much culture. They avoid manual work; they work too hard. They are miserly; they are ostentatious spenders. They are inveterate capitalists; they are born Communists. And so on.

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Re: Himmler promising to exterminate Poles?

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:41 pm

Or Dr. Terry.
Asked to explain why they hate Jews, anti-Semites contradict themselves. Jews are always showing off; they are hermetic and secretive. They will not assimilate; they assimilate only too well. They are too religious; they are too materialistic, and a threat to religion. They are uncultured; they have too much culture. They avoid manual work; they work too hard. They are miserly; they are ostentatious spenders. They are inveterate capitalists; they are born Communists. And so on.

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Re: Himmler promising to exterminate Poles?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Dec 13, 2017 9:20 pm

Himmler visited Posen and spoke there quite a few times, including the famous speeches, IIRC. I've seen this quotation in other places and cited to other sources. I looked in Winstone, Rutherford, Aly, Lukas & Davies, Longerich, and Epstein with no luck. However, Levene vol II quotes from the extract above and cites to Marrus, The Nazi Holocaust, no page citation (I don't have this book).

The speech is often quoted without attribution, always to Himmler, as on the Auschwitz Museum Twitter feed: https://twitter.com/Temidor/status/850613361654059008 and the variation on Auschwitz Museum website: http://auschwitz.org/en/history/categor ... auschwitz/ and here http://auschwitz.org/en/history/kl-ausc ... -the-camp/
Himmler said that “all skilled workers of Polish background are to be used in our war industry. Afterwards, Poles will disappear from the world. . . . Every German’s time is coming. That is why it is necessary for the great German people to see their main task in the destruction of all Poles.”

It's quoted, just to take another example, on p 9 of the Foreword to IPN's The Destruction of the Polish Elite. Operation AB – Katyn (I don't have a link, just a PDF, no source).

Unsourced, common quotations like this freak me out, btw.

However, in this case, see this mentioning Hitler, not Himmler, from IMT proceedings, Blue series, Vol XXIV, p 186 (this is the volume with guide to documents):
*USSR-522 Letter from the Block office Mogilno to all confidential agents, 24 August 1943: extract from a speech by Hitler to camp commandants, 15 March 1940, in which he demands the extermination of all Poles after Polish experts have been fully exploited in German war industry; instruction to confidential agents to report all Polish defeatists.. .XX-228,233

I can't find a copy of USSR-522. But in Blue Series, Vol XX, p 228 we can read:
"Security Service of the Reichsfiihrer SS, Bloekstelle Mogilno, 24 'August 1943."-Translating verbatim-"To confidential agents. Subject: The Preparation of the Lists of Poles."

The text follows:

"I have repeatedly pointed out to you the necessity of paying special attention to the Poles. For that reason, I am giving below the speech of the Reichsfiihrer SS, Himmler, delivered on 15 March 1940 at the meeting of the concentration camp commanders in former Poland, and according to the directives given in that speech, I ask you to submit to me the list of names of all the conckrned Poles."

Extract from speech:

"'For that reason, all our collaborators, both men and women, should consider as their most important and urgent task the preventing of all unscrupulous leaders of the Polish people from exercising their activity. You, as camp commanders, will know best how td fulfill this task.

"'All skilled workers of Polish origin are to be utilized in our war industry; then all Poles will disappear from the face of the earth.

"'In fulfilling this very responsible task, you must; within the prescribed limits of time, exterminate the Poles. I give this directive to all the camp commanders.

" 'The hour is drawing closer when every German will have to stand the test. For that reason, the great German nation Should understand that its most important task right now is to exterminate all the Poles.. .

"'I expect all my agents to report to me immediately all Polish grumblers and defeatists. For such a task we must also utilize children and aged persons, who can help us con- siderably, because of their so-called friendly attitude toward the Poles.'

"Extract from Himmler's speech on 15 March 1940. Heil Hitler. SS Hauptsturmfuhrer, (signature illegible)."

So there's an apparent typo in Vol XXIV and the speech was indeed made by Himmler on 15 March 1940 and forwarded in 1943 as a reminder about Polish matters by SS office in Mogilno. (Höppner testified that he doubted that the speech text was genuine and that he could not fathom Himmler having given such an instruction, btw, p 229, 234. Smirnov said, p 229, "This document was captured by the Polish Army in Mogilno in the building of the SD.")
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Wed Dec 13, 2017 9:41 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Himmler promising to exterminate Poles?

Post by Balmoral95 » Wed Dec 13, 2017 9:38 pm

See this oddity, something similar on same date sourced to USSR-522, but Hitler, not Himmler, from IMT proceedings, Blue series, Vol XXIV, p 186 (this is the volume with guide to documents):



I can only find one Hitler speech for March 1940 dated to the 10th.

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Re: Himmler promising to exterminate Poles?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Dec 13, 2017 9:44 pm

Sorry I couldn't find the text on pp 228 and 233 in Vol XX referenced in the guide volume because I was looking at the PDF numbering scheme, not the Blue Series pages . . . duh . . . then figured out my error after about half a dozen tries :) so I've added the quotations from USSR-522 that were given in the tribunal session, found in Vol XX.
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Re: Himmler promising to exterminate Poles?

Post by Aaron Richards » Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:54 pm

Thanks a bunch for that stellar fact-checking, Statistical Mechanic! We now also have more of the speech than just those few lines.

source: https://www.loc.gov/rr/frd/Military_Law ... Vol-XX.pdf

Here's the full exchange, in case anyone is interested:

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Mr. President, in connection
with the witness' replies on the fact that he does not know whether
the confidential agents of the SD made up lists of persons who were
to be annihilated or mobilized forcibly or else arrested and placed
in concentration camps, I would like your permission to submit
another short document pertaining to another country, to Poland,
and which contains the instructions of the Blockstellenleiter of the
SD in Poland to his confidential agents. I ask your permission to
read this document into the record.

HOEPPNER: May I say one more word? There is nothing in my
document about annihilation or concentration camps.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: You will now have the document
before you. May I quote the document? It is USSR-522. I quote:

"Security Service of the Reichsfiihrer SS, Bloekstelle Mogilno,
24 'August 1943."-Translating verbatim-"To confidential
agents. Subject: The Preparation of the Lists of Poles."

The text follows:

"I have repeatedly pointed out to you the necessity of paying
special attention to the Poles. For that reason, I am giving
below the speech of the Reichsführer SS, Himmler, delivered
on 15 March 1940 at the meeting of the concentration camp
commanders in former Poland, and according to the directives
given in that speech, I ask you to submit to me the list of
names of all the concerned Poles."

Extract from speech:

"'For that reason, all our collaborators, both men and women,
should consider as their most important and urgent task the
preventing of all unscrupulous leaders of the Polish people
from exercising their activity. You, as camp commanders,
will know best how to fulfill this task.

"'All skilled workers of Polish origin are to be utilized in our
war industry; then all Poles will disappear from the face of
the earth.

"'In fulfilling this very responsible task, you must; within the
prescribed limits of time, exterminate the Poles. I give this
directive to all the camp commanders.

" 'The hour is drawing closer when every German will have
to stand the test. For that reason, the great German nation
Should understand that its most important task right now is
to exterminate all the Poles.. .

"'I expect all my agents to report to me immediately all
Polish grumblers and defeatists. For such a task we must
also utilize children and aged persons, who can help us considerably,
because of their so-called friendly attitude toward
the Poles.'

"Extract from Himmler's speech on 15 March 1940. Heil Hitler.
SS Hauptsturmfuhrer, (signature illegible)."

I would like to ask you now, after seeing this document, whether
you still deny that the workers of the SD in the occupied territories
trained and oriented all persons they could use to make up lists of
such persons who were to be annihilated?

HOEPPNER: Yes, I deny that, especially as I cannot state
whether this document is a genuine one or not.

MR. COUNSpLLOR SMIRNOV: This document was captured by
the Polish Army in Mogilno in the building of the SD.

HOEPPNER: I take, for example, the words "camp commander
meeting" as being absolutely impossible. I don't see what it could
refer to; and it seems to me impossible to ascertain what "Polish
grumblers and defeatists" might mean. It seems to me absolutely
self-evident that the Poles hoped that Germany would lose the war.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: I am not asking you to make
propagandistic speeches on the subject of Poland, I am asking you
something quite different. I am asking you this question: Are you
still denying the fact that the SD compelled those collaborating with
it to make lists of persons to be annihilated?

HOEPPNER: Yes, I deny that.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: I have no more questions.
THE PRESIDENT: What evidence is there that this document
was found in the SD headquarters?

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: It was not found in the SD
headquarters. That was not properly translated.

THE PRESIDENT: Your- answer didn't come through.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: This w!as not found at the
central headquarters Mr. President. It was not translated to you
correctly if that is what was said. The document was found by the
Polish Army. . .

THE PRESIDENT: What was translated to me was that it was
captured by the Polish Army at the SD headquarters. Is that right?

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: That is right, but not at the
central headquarters of the SD for Poland, at the headquarters in
the block station of Mogilno.

THE PRESIDENT: I didn't say anything about the central headquarters.
All I want to know is what evidence there is that it was
found at the headquarters of the SD.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Yes, Mr. President. May I now
read the document of the Polish delegation on the subject, which
says:

"It is hereby certified that the submitted document in the
German language, dated 24 August 1943, consists of the instructions
of the Security Police of the Reichsfuhrer SS, in
the City of Mogilno, containing an extract from Himmler's
speech and that it is the exact photostatic copy of the original
-- submitted by the Chief Commission for the Investigation of
Nazi Crimes in Poland."

The original was found in an envelope. In the left-hand corner
at the top there was stated, "Landrat of the Area of Mogilno of the
Governmental District Hohensalza." Besides, there is a receipt for
a registered letter which says, "Registered Mogilno, Wartheland 272,"
with a postal stamp "24 August 1943," addressed to...

THE PRESIDENT: Colonel, I am sorry, I didn't hear the beginning
of what you said. What are you reading from now?

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: I am reading, Mr. President,
from the certificate which the Polish Delegation submitted on the
subject of this document. This was a document which was submitted
to us by the Polish Delegation.

THE PRESIDENT: How did you identify this particular document?
You see, we have a document produced before us which
appears to have nothing on it which connects it with that certificate.
I mean, how do you connect it with this certificate?

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Mr. President, I was just handed
a note here from our documentary section which says that since the
Tribunal has the original, the original does not have the certificate
of the Polish Delegation attached to it, whereas, I have the certificate
attached to my document. I am very sorry about the mistake.
You will receive the certificate.

THE PRESIDENT: I see-and the certificate you have identifies
the translation in Russian? Is that right?

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Mr. President, yesterday
myself verified the translation which I have with the original, and
I have found it to be accurate and correct, and the certificate also
states that the Russian translation is correct.

THE PRESIDENT: Colonel Smirnov, you must offer in evidence
that certificate in order to make it clear that this is the document
which was found at this SD headquarters at Mogilno. That should
be attached to this exhibit. Has this got a number, this exhibit? 522,
is that it?

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: yes,' the number is USSR-522,
Mr. President.

THE PRESIDENT: Well, we will have to have the certificate
attached to it; then we shall be able to look at it.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Yes, Mr. President. I have no
more questions to ask this witness, Mr. President.

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will adjourn.
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Re: Himmler promising to exterminate Poles?

Post by Balmoral95 » Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:11 am


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Re: Himmler promising to exterminate Poles?

Post by Sergey_Romanov » Sat Dec 16, 2017 7:43 am

> Until now I was of the impression the Posen speeches didn't happen earlier than 1943?

There was no Nazi rule that you can't give a speech in the same city more than 2 times.
;)

And sure, the Nazis did not look kindly upon Slavs. See Generalplan Ost.

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