Playing with estimates - does it really matter.

Holocaust denial and related subjects.
User avatar
Denying-History
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1729
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:01 pm

Playing with estimates - does it really matter.

Postby Denying-History » Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:47 pm

Deniers love to argue the point of a "shrinking holocaust", but I wanted to play with idea a bit more and ask really what impact the reductions of Pressac & Meyers would really have if we took them seriously, and also estimating the number gassed. So below is a rather shotty table I have made to play with the idea.


Name of camp | Minimum | Maximum | Jean-Claude Pressac | Fritjof Meyers |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Auschwitz | 1 100 000 | 1 472 000 | 631 000 to 711 000 | 510 000 |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Belzec | 434 000 | 434 000 | 100 000 to 150 000 | No death toll given |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sobibor | 152 000 | 170 000 | 30 000 to 35 000 | No death toll given |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Treblinka | 780 000 | 925 000 | 200 000 to 250 000 | No death toll given |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Majdanek | 95 000 | 130 000| fewer than 100,000 | No death toll given |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chelmno | 156 000 | 172 000 | 80 000 to 85 000 | No death toll given |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maly Trostenets | 40 000 | 60 000 | No death toll given | No death toll given |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ghettorization | 800 000 | No death toll given | No death toll given |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Work camps | 140 000 | No death toll given | No death toll given | No death toll given |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Concentration camps |36 000 | No death toll given | No death toll given | No death toll given |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Einsatzgruppen | 1 152 000 | 1 500 000 | No death toll given | No death toll given |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Minimum: 4 885 000

Maximum: 5 839 000

Jean-Claude Pressac: 3 304 000 to 3 862 000

Fritjof Meyers: 4 295 000 to 5 249 000

It honestly seems unimportant to must but this did interest me enough to make.
« Lies written in ink cannot disguise facts written in blood. »
- Lu Xun

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 6K Posts
Posts: 6441
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: Playing with estimates - does it really matter.

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:06 pm

As far as Pressac and the Action Reinhard Camps, to be fair he didn’t have access to updated information, i.e. the Hoefle Telegram. I think Pressac passed away a couple of years after that was published. I look at that as an absolute minimum, though Belzec effectively closed by the end of December 1942. Belzec didn’t take any transports in December, from what I remember.


I don’t know that much about Meyers, other than the small bit I looked up when arguing stuff on FG’s blog.

I also don’t know that much about Pressac’s numbers.

User avatar
Denying-History
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1729
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:01 pm

Re: Playing with estimates - does it really matter.

Postby Denying-History » Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:34 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:As far as Pressac and the Action Reinhard Camps, to be fair he didn’t have access to updated information, i.e. the Hoefle Telegram. I think Pressac passed away a couple of years after that was published. I look at that as an absolute minimum, though Belzec effectively closed by the end of December 1942. Belzec didn’t take any transports in December, from what I remember.


I don’t know that much about Meyers, other than the small bit I looked up when arguing stuff on FG’s blog.

I also don’t know that much about Pressac’s numbers.


I believe Pressac was still alive at the discovery for the Hofle Telegram considering he died roughly at the age of 60. Meaning he was alive for the Irving trial, though I believe he stopped writing after his publication Die Kremarorien Vom Auschwitz. (German edition) was released. Mind though the reasons behind his smaller estimates is that he believes the AR camps operated till mid-1942 as transit centers as an explanation for the steam chambers.

Too my understanding no one has seen his reasonings behind his estimates for Action Reinhardt camps and Chelmno, and his Majdanek estimate was most likely conjecture that itself was justified.
« Lies written in ink cannot disguise facts written in blood. »
- Lu Xun

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 6K Posts
Posts: 6441
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: Playing with estimates - does it really matter.

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:22 am

Pressac was a bit of an odd duck. I find his 1989 book very useful but I don’t get some of his numbers. Granted, I owe the book another read through when I get a chance.

User avatar
Denying-History
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1729
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:01 pm

Re: Playing with estimates - does it really matter.

Postby Denying-History » Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:40 am

I would recommend his 1993 book, personally I feel it's stronger then technique and operation.
« Lies written in ink cannot disguise facts written in blood. »
- Lu Xun

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 6K Posts
Posts: 6441
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: Playing with estimates - does it really matter.

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:47 am

Denying-History wrote:I would recommend his 1993 book, personally I feel it's stronger then technique and operation.


Did “The Crematories of Auschwitz” ever get published in English?

User avatar
Denying-History
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1729
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:01 pm

Re: Playing with estimates - does it really matter.

Postby Denying-History » Wed Nov 22, 2017 1:23 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:I would recommend his 1993 book, personally I feel it's stronger then technique and operation.


Did “The Crematories of Auschwitz” ever get published in English?

To my understand it was, but only in limited print.

Any copy supposedly in English that I know of is more expensive then the amount I spent on a print copy of technique. The German copy last time I looked was under 15 dollars, which I would recommend taking advantage of off amazon.

As a quick test it seems Google translate on my phone it's pretty friendly too it. You can take advantage of the iPhone app considering it allows you to take pictures and copy entire texts that way.
« Lies written in ink cannot disguise facts written in blood. »
- Lu Xun

Sergey_Romanov
Poster
Posts: 273
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 10:15 am

Re: Playing with estimates - does it really matter.

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Wed Nov 22, 2017 6:04 pm

No one except maybe deniers or semi-deniers takes Pressac and Meyer seriously on this issue.

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 6K Posts
Posts: 6441
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: Playing with estimates - does it really matter.

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Nov 22, 2017 6:07 pm

Sergey_Romanov wrote:No one except maybe deniers or semi-deniers takes Pressac and Meyer seriously on this issue.



Sergey, mind taking a look at this thread?

http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=28739


I don’t know very much about IV and V.

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 17439
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Playing with estimates - does it really matter.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:00 pm

Denying-History wrote:Mind though the reasons behind his smaller estimates is that he believes the AR camps operated till mid-1942 as transit centers as an explanation for the steam chambers.

Jesus wept. How (where) did he come to such a preposterous conclusion?
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

User avatar
Denying-History
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1729
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:01 pm

Re: Playing with estimates - does it really matter.

Postby Denying-History » Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:57 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Denying-History wrote:Mind though the reasons behind his smaller estimates is that he believes the AR camps operated till mid-1942 as transit centers as an explanation for the steam chambers.

Jesus wept. How (where) did he come to such a preposterous conclusion?

The HC white paper covers it on page 372, he wrote it in an article in Historama (I have still been attempting to get my hands on the article, it was written in 1995). Mattogno quotes the important pieces in his publication on Treblinka being a transit camp on page 289:

http://holocausthandbooks.com/dl/08-t.pdf
« Lies written in ink cannot disguise facts written in blood. »
- Lu Xun

User avatar
Denying-History
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1729
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:01 pm

Re: Playing with estimates - does it really matter.

Postby Denying-History » Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:07 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Sergey_Romanov wrote:No one except maybe deniers or semi-deniers takes Pressac and Meyer seriously on this issue.



Sergey, mind taking a look at this thread?

http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=28739


I don’t know very much about IV and V.

What are you lost on?
« Lies written in ink cannot disguise facts written in blood. »
- Lu Xun

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 17439
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Playing with estimates - does it really matter.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:08 pm

Thanks, good grief my memory is for {!#%@}! That is not good, on Pressac's part -par for the course as to Mattogno. I won't go on about single witnesses or about steam - the HC guys make the main points. Terribly shabby on Pressac's part.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

User avatar
Denying-History
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1729
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:01 pm

Re: Playing with estimates - does it really matter.

Postby Denying-History » Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:21 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Thanks, good grief my memory is for {!#%@}! That is not good, on Pressac's part -par for the course as to Mattogno. I won't go on about single witnesses or about steam - the HC guys make the main points. Terribly shabby on Pressac's part.


I would agree, but we however know little of his position on the matter and how it developed. He did technically have two years to write on the matter after the Hofle telegram, and for all we know based on pieces from his interview that a good number of his ideas when unpublished.
« Lies written in ink cannot disguise facts written in blood. »
- Lu Xun

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 17439
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Playing with estimates - does it really matter.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:25 pm

Quoted in Mattogno & Graf, Pressac wrote, "For Treblinka, the witnesses described in different words exactly the same sequence: entry into the undressing room, then into the bath, after that into a room for testing asphyxiation gases, which was next to a fur- nace room, from whence the tracks led to a ‘cemetery.’ They mention the use of steam in the gas chambers." In the research I did on steam chambers, to the best of my recollection, there were no witnesses - as opposed to "the witnesses" - testifying to such a sequence. I'm not an expert on this but I am curious which "the witnesses" Pressac had in mind. The London report has been discussed to much better result than by Pressac here.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 6K Posts
Posts: 6441
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: Playing with estimates - does it really matter.

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:29 pm

Denying-History wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Sergey_Romanov wrote:No one except maybe deniers or semi-deniers takes Pressac and Meyer seriously on this issue.



Sergey, mind taking a look at this thread?

http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=28739


I don’t know very much about IV and V.

What are you lost on?


Mainly trying to find more information about them, there are good descriptions of II and III and I’ve seen blueprints.

From what I can tell there’s not a lot on IV & V. AFAIK (and it’s been awhile since I’ve looked into it) there are some photos of their construction, some photos exist of them, the “Sondercommando photos” were taken at V but I don’t know about blueprints.

Also, what about Sondercommando descriptions?

User avatar
Denying-History
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1729
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:01 pm

Re: Playing with estimates - does it really matter.

Postby Denying-History » Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:25 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Sergey_Romanov wrote:No one except maybe deniers or semi-deniers takes Pressac and Meyer seriously on this issue.



Sergey, mind taking a look at this thread?

http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=28739


I don’t know very much about IV and V.

What are you lost on?


Mainly trying to find more information about them, there are good descriptions of II and III and I’ve seen blueprints.

From what I can tell there’s not a lot on IV & V. AFAIK (and it’s been awhile since I’ve looked into it) there are some photos of their construction, some photos exist of them, the “Sondercommando photos” were taken at V but I don’t know about blueprints.

Also, what about Sondercommando descriptions?


Ill Pm you some things from Pelts "The Case for Auschwitz" later to give you some help.
« Lies written in ink cannot disguise facts written in blood. »
- Lu Xun

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 6K Posts
Posts: 6441
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: Playing with estimates - does it really matter.

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:49 pm

Thanks.

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 17439
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Playing with estimates - does it really matter.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Nov 23, 2017 12:07 am

recent piece (deeply dissatisfying when he wades in beyond the most obvious points on Red Cross estimates and death registries) on number of fatalities by David Cole (to cut to the chase, Cole, without explaining himself, here at least, estimates the Jewish death toll as "somewhere between 3 and 3.5 million") - not an auspicious bit of work by one of the recent "defectors"
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

User avatar
Denying-History
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1729
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:01 pm

Re: Playing with estimates - does it really matter.

Postby Denying-History » Thu Nov 23, 2017 7:06 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:Thanks.


Moved it over to my Twitter.

https://twitter.com/denying_history/status/933773147974795265
« Lies written in ink cannot disguise facts written in blood. »
- Lu Xun

User avatar
Denying-History
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1729
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:01 pm

Re: Playing with estimates - does it really matter.

Postby Denying-History » Thu Nov 23, 2017 7:30 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:recent piece (deeply dissatisfying when he wades in beyond the most obvious points on Red Cross estimates and death registries) on number of fatalities by David Cole (to cut to the chase, Cole, without explaining himself, here at least, estimates the Jewish death toll as "somewhere between 3 and 3.5 million") - not an auspicious bit of work by one of the recent "defectors"


Nathan posted (or maybe retweeted) that on Twitter, although his figures seem justifiable if only accepts as he does that Majdanek and Auschwitz were not extermination camps.

Irving seems for some reason to replace Auschwitz and Majdanek by increasing the Action Reinhardt camps death toll to the point that most historicans would be using mattognos talking points to defend their own.
« Lies written in ink cannot disguise facts written in blood. »
- Lu Xun

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 17439
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Playing with estimates - does it really matter.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:27 pm

Denying-History wrote:Nathan posted (or maybe retweeted) that on Twitter, although his figures seem justifiable if only accepts as he does that Majdanek and Auschwitz were not extermination camps.

I didn't see his breakdown - but I will say that assuming that Birkenau was not the site of mass extermination is not justifiable. Majdanek's death toll, whilst grievous, doesn't have a major impact when an estimate is within a quarter million or so. But Birkenau . . . Jesus wept. And if he includes Birkenau + Majdanek, they only get him to 4-4.5 million, so he is still using some problematic thinking.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

User avatar
Denying-History
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1729
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:01 pm

Re: Playing with estimates - does it really matter.

Postby Denying-History » Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:48 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Denying-History wrote:Nathan posted (or maybe retweeted) that on Twitter, although his figures seem justifiable if only accepts as he does that Majdanek and Auschwitz were not extermination camps.

I didn't see his breakdown - but I will say that assuming that Birkenau was not the site of mass extermination is not justifiable. Majdanek's death toll, whilst grievous, doesn't have a major impact when an estimate is within a quarter million or so. But Birkenau . . . Jesus wept. And if he includes Birkenau + Majdanek, they only get him to 4-4.5 million, so he is still using some problematic thinking.


Well technically Coles has in his essays where he attacks revisionists on Action Reinhardt that he still believes what he has stated on Auschwitz and one can assume the same for majdanek. He also still indirectly denies Chelmno considering he says gas vans "are like rainbows shooting out of a unicorns ass".

So I think his figures make sense, 1.3 to 2.8 million from Action Reinhardt depending on what figures he accepts 1.1 to 1.5 million from shootings, maybe 600,000 to 800,000 from ghettos.

He definitely has to explain himself, but mind we have no idea how meny he thinks died from shootings and Reinhardt.
« Lies written in ink cannot disguise facts written in blood. »
- Lu Xun

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 17439
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Playing with estimates - does it really matter.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:54 pm

Denying-History wrote:. . . his figures make sense

if you ignore the camp with the highest murder toll . . .

Mackayla's not impressed, she says anyone can ignore evidence they don't like and put down whatever numbers . . .

Image
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

User avatar
Denying-History
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1729
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:01 pm

Re: Playing with estimates - does it really matter.

Postby Denying-History » Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:15 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:if you ignore the camp with the highest murder toll . . .

Too be honest most people are not impressed with the negation that deniers have to use in general. Cole is not a denier but still is a negationist.

But in the context that Cole gives, the figures he has can make some sense.
« Lies written in ink cannot disguise facts written in blood. »
- Lu Xun

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 6K Posts
Posts: 6441
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: Playing with estimates - does it really matter.

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:21 pm

Denying-History wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:Thanks.


Moved it over to my Twitter.

https://twitter.com/denying_history/status/933773147974795265



Thanks, didn’t know there were blueprints.

User avatar
Denying-History
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1729
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:01 pm

Re: Playing with estimates - does it really matter.

Postby Denying-History » Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:25 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:Thanks.


Moved it over to my Twitter.

https://twitter.com/denying_history/status/933773147974795265



Thanks, didn’t know there were blueprints.

Those are drawings done by one of Pelts students if I remember correctly.

Pressac has published blueprints but this is from back when he assumed Krema 5 didn't have ventilation and that Krema 4 stayed in operation for more then 50 days.
« Lies written in ink cannot disguise facts written in blood. »
- Lu Xun

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 6K Posts
Posts: 6441
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: Playing with estimates - does it really matter.

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:30 pm

Denying-History wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:Thanks.


Moved it over to my Twitter.

https://twitter.com/denying_history/status/933773147974795265



Thanks, didn’t know there were blueprints.

Those are drawings done by one of Pelts students if I remember correctly.

Pressac has published blueprints but this is from back when he assumed Krema 5 didn't have ventilation and that Krema 4 stayed in operation for more then 50 days.


I just tracked down a Kindle copy of “Case for Auschwitz.” Guess what I’m adding to my reading list.....

I’ve also got “Anatomy of Auschwitz Death Camp” on tap, it’ll be awhile before I can get them but they are put on my list.

User avatar
Denying-History
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1729
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:01 pm

Re: Playing with estimates - does it really matter.

Postby Denying-History » Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:32 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:Thanks.


Moved it over to my Twitter.

https://twitter.com/denying_history/status/933773147974795265



Thanks, didn’t know there were blueprints.

Those are drawings done by one of Pelts students if I remember correctly.

Pressac has published blueprints but this is from back when he assumed Krema 5 didn't have ventilation and that Krema 4 stayed in operation for more then 50 days.


I just tracked down a Kindle copy of “Case for Auschwitz.” Guess what I’m adding to my reading list.....

I’ve also got “Anatomy of Auschwitz Death Camp” on tap, it’ll be awhile before I can get them but they are put on my list.


I can get you anatomy for free just add me on Facebook and I'll invite you to the group, also Case for Auschwitz is one that is really for print and not electronic.
« Lies written in ink cannot disguise facts written in blood. »
- Lu Xun

User avatar
Balsamo
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1579
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:29 pm

Re: Playing with estimates - does it really matter.

Postby Balsamo » Fri Nov 24, 2017 12:33 am

D-H:
Cole is not a denier but still is a negationist.


LOL
Negationism is a French neologism created to express what a "denier" is...same thing...but i like the paradox.

To answer the OP,
the answer is clearly NO, numbers do not mater when a destructive policy has been established...when i say destructive, i mean "genocidal" ... In my perspective, it is the "undeniable" character of the Holocaust that Deniers avoid like the plague...Hence, they tendency to focus on numbers.
PS: Meyers is a jerk and should not even been integrated into a chart...

User avatar
Denying-History
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1729
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:01 pm

Re: Playing with estimates - does it really matter.

Postby Denying-History » Fri Nov 24, 2017 12:43 am

Seems besides the point considering the context in which we are discussing is Mattogno level vs partial acceptance. You should also be aware by negationist I mean he nullifies evidence, similar to Irving, while accepting other chunks as authentic. Personally its rather hard to label him a denier as this places him on the same level of honesty as Mattogno, which is only slightly true.
« Lies written in ink cannot disguise facts written in blood. »
- Lu Xun

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 17439
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Playing with estimates - does it really matter.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Nov 24, 2017 1:46 am

speaking of which, did Mr Hunt offer an estimate of Jewish deaths which he accepts? I can't recall his stating a number . . .
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

User avatar
Denying-History
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1729
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:01 pm

Re: Playing with estimates - does it really matter.

Postby Denying-History » Fri Nov 24, 2017 2:56 am

Not that I know of, he pretty much just did a 180 to what ever modern historiography accepts, so it means he would put the figure between "5.5 to 6.5 million" if what Lipstadts says is correct. But not stating much, bunny would have a field day on how she pretty much just accepts the highest figures.
« Lies written in ink cannot disguise facts written in blood. »
- Lu Xun

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 17439
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Playing with estimates - does it really matter.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Nov 24, 2017 3:29 am

And it does matter. From a narrow legalistic pov, if the Third Reich murdered 1.5m Jews, its leaders are as guilty of mass murder as they are murdering 5.2m. This is true also from a moral pov.

But the consequences for society, for Jewish history, and for Europe are different with different levels of mass murder - think of parts of Europe where Jewish life was basically extinguished, where it had long flourished. Which also means that in "counting," demographic impact (locations, age, nationality, sex, and other such factors), as well as chronology, should ultimately be taken into account.

Surely it matters, for Lithuanian history, that in Lithuania about 95% of the Lithuanian Jews perished; that Greece and Bulgaria saw very different %'s of Jews being killed; and that the %s among Belgium, France and the Netherlands were so different (3/4 of the Dutch Jews being killed vs about 1/4 in the other two countries - a comparison of the extermination campaigns in these countries can tell us about the course of the FS in each as well as the historical consequences): Did different Jewish survival strategies have different outcomes? How did different German policies toward different countries - occupied countries, Axis allies, USSR, Poland, different parts of Europe - matter? How did mass murder policies and actions evolve over time?

Thinking about the numbers involves questions of policy, and also methods and results - what postwar Europe would be like. How close the Nazis came to accomplishing the destruction of European Jews. To wish away debate about the numbers is to wish away the actual impact for society of the murder campaigns and refocus the question from history to the moral or legal realm.

I personally think that - since I can never put my fingers on an up-to-date, comprehensive summary of the data on victims (mass killings, "natural" causes in camps, ghettos, and so on) - "we" need a new statistical study that incorporates the latest knowledge.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

User avatar
Denying-History
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1729
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:01 pm

Re: Playing with estimates - does it really matter.

Postby Denying-History » Fri Nov 24, 2017 3:42 am

Well sorry to burst a bubble but the best we have is an old servey by George Weller that counted 4.8 million Jews merdered out of 5 million. This however is undercounted by his own admission. Personally I think such an estimate however is pretty much impossible.
« Lies written in ink cannot disguise facts written in blood. »
- Lu Xun

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 17439
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Playing with estimates - does it really matter.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Nov 24, 2017 3:48 am

Well, Weller doesn't strike me as the best, but, right, I meant someone needs to do a new summary.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

Balmoral95
Regular Poster
Posts: 955
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 4:14 am
Location: The Free Nambia Healthcare Nirvana

Re: Playing with estimates - does it really matter.

Postby Balmoral95 » Fri Nov 24, 2017 4:02 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:speaking of which, did Mr Hunt offer an estimate of Jewish deaths which he accepts? I can't recall his stating a number . . .


Could't say. Over so many years of reading their drivel my brain developed an "auto-delete crapola" function.

User avatar
Denying-History
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1729
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:01 pm

Re: Playing with estimates - does it really matter.

Postby Denying-History » Fri Nov 24, 2017 4:10 am

Weller definitely isn't the best, but to be perfectly honest, it's nearly impossible to find anyone willing to make such data, and the only figure I know of for ghettos is 800,000 from Hilberg.
« Lies written in ink cannot disguise facts written in blood. »
- Lu Xun

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 17439
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Playing with estimates - does it really matter.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Nov 24, 2017 4:11 am

That's why it's a gap someone should fill :) but my earlier point was mostly to answer "does it really matter" with a "yes."
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

User avatar
Balsamo
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1579
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:29 pm

Re: Playing with estimates - does it really matter.

Postby Balsamo » Fri Nov 24, 2017 8:20 pm

Statmec:

And it does matter. From a narrow legalistic pov, if the Third Reich murdered 1.5m Jews, its leaders are as guilty of mass murder as they are murdering 5.2m. This is true also from a moral pov.


It is not what i meant...Genocidal policy is to be undertsood as a policy which finality is extermination...Had the Nazis killed "only" 1.5 million Jews would just meant that they did not have the time and opportunity to kill more. It is in this optic that it does not matter.
What would have been different, although not as you say in a narrow legalist pow, would have been the Nazi killing 1.5 million Jews "outside" a systematic genocidal policy, for example, a huge operation within the USSR that would not have had any lethal repercussion on Jews living in Greece, Italy, etc.

And it is precisely the genocidal nature of the Nazi Policy that makes this hypothetical number of 1.5 million absurd, given that the absolute minimum is way over 4 million.

So i still stand to my opinion is that because the finality of the policy was to reach "0" Jews in Europe, long term, the fact that the Nazis "only" managed to kill 4.8, 5.5 or 6 million does not really matter.

Now, i understand what you mean, and i agree, had the Nazi killed 500.000 Jews, it would of course have been a "crime against Humanity" of huge proportion, but would probably not prove the "genocidal" nature of the crime. Without genocide, we would be talking of "massacres", "mass killing", etc.
My opinion being that it is the genocidal nature, and its international scope, that makes the Holocaust exceptional, much more than the number of victims the Nazis managed to kill. Enough to know that the number chosen would have been higher had the war ended in 1946.


Return to “Holocaust Denial”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests