The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Holocaust denial and related subjects.
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:54 pm

Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:Is there anything about the subject you guys may wanna hear from an Israeli Jew?



Go ahead. I have an understanding but I don’t live there.

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Im_Not_Creative_Enough » Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:09 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:Is there anything about the subject you guys may wanna hear from an Israeli Jew?



Go ahead. I have an understanding but I don’t live there.


I was kinda hoping for a more specific question. This is a pretty wide subject.
The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far.

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:12 pm

Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:Is there anything about the subject you guys may wanna hear from an Israeli Jew?



Go ahead. I have an understanding but I don’t live there.


I was kinda hoping for a more specific question. This is a pretty wide subject.



Then start wide, if I have questions I can ask them.

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:13 pm

Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:Is there anything about the subject you guys may wanna hear from an Israeli Jew?



Go ahead. I have an understanding but I don’t live there.


I was kinda hoping for a more specific question. This is a pretty wide subject.



BTW, my whole idea is to remain dispassionate about this. I realize there are two sides.

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:14 pm

There may be a bit of a gap, I’m watching the season premiere of the Walking Dead.

:D

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Oct 25, 2017 12:32 am

Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:Is there anything about the subject you guys may wanna hear from an Israeli Jew?



Go ahead. I have an understanding but I don’t live there.


I was kinda hoping for a more specific question. This is a pretty wide subject.

Whats your expertise above and beyond what anyone might have?
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:10 am

Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:Is there anything about the subject you guys may wanna hear from an Israeli Jew?


I would suggest to choose whatever you like to share with us on the above issues, but if I can show what interests me most in this story, that would be world media bias and distortions and creating a false reality. I was shocked to find out, after a decade of reading on my own, that almost each and every single subject I knew from my country's media was covered by one or more lies, I mean in everything, there's a catch, and I have to work hard to overcome it.

For example, reading these two accounts left me speechless:

- THE MEDIA INTIFADA: Bad Math and Ugly: Truths about the New York Times (and Many Western Media Outlets) in the Israel-Hamas War of 2014, New York Observer, 10/03/2015
https://www.mideastdig.com/forbes-its-a-media-intifada/

- ASSOCIATED MESS: How the AP Botched Its Investigation of Civilian Deaths in the Israel-Hamas War. Posed photographs. Intentional miscategorizations. Buried corrections. One-sided sourcing. Cherry-picked quotes. And a just-plain-wrong conclusion about 'most' Gaza casualties being civilians, Forbes, 21/08/2014
https://www.mideastdig.com/associated-m ... hamas-war/


For more, I was helped by these accounts:

- A former AP correspondent explains how and why reporters get Israel so wrong, and why it matters, Tablet, 26/08/2014
http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-an ... ider-guide

- How media condition people to be anti-Israel, Times of Israel, 11/06/2012
http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/how-medi ... ti-israel/

- What the Media Gets Wrong About Israel - The news tells us less about Israel than about the people writing the news, a former AP reporter says, Atlantic, 30/11/2014
https://www.theatlantic.com/internation ... ry/383262/
«The pipeline of information from Israel is not just rusty and leaking, but intentionally plugged - The uglier aspects of Palestinian society are untouchable because they would disrupt the 'Israel story,' which is a story of Jewish moral failure».

- Former AP Reporter Confirms Matti Friedman Account highlighting how, and why, news organizations get Israel so wrong, Tablet, 19/09/2014
http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/185121/ ... an-account

- Daniel Schwammenthal (Director of the AJC Transatlantic Institute in Brussels): Fear and trembling: Western media and Hamas: We are all aware of the wilful blindness of Western media when reporting on Hamas in Gaza - «Whatever the reason is for today’s miscoverage -fear, ignorance or bias- we are not getting the true picture from Gaza - Though it's no excuse, what may not be so clear is that many of the journalists are also terrified of telling the truth», Commentator, 01/08/2014
http://www.thecommentator.com/article/5 ... _and_hamas

- Richard Landes, The Place of Journalism in Palestinian Cognitive Warfare (Talk at AIS, Haifa, June 2012), by Augean Stables
http://www.theaugeanstables.com/2013/05 ... june-2012/

- Richard Miron, Media self-reflection on Gaza war coverage is necessary, but unlikely, Was the coverage of the Gaza conflict tainted by prejudice or moral cowardice? Was there a clear line where reporting ended and emoting began? There aren’t clear answers -and the media won’t be running to scrutinize itself, Haaretz, 01/09/2014
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.613518

- Mark Lavie, I am the 'furious' one who discovered the Israeli peace offer in early 2009, got it confirmed on the record and brought it to you, only to ban me from writing about it, 19/09/2014
https://brokenspring.wordpress.com/2014 ... d-so-do-i/

- Matti Friedman Responds to Critics of His Essay on Israel Media Coverage, Tablet, 16/09/2014
http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/184707/ ... y-on-earth

«For the international press, the uglier characteristics of Palestinian politics and society are mostly untouchable because they would disrupt the Israel story, which is a story of Jewish moral failure.
Most consumers of the Israel story don’t understand how the story is manufactured. But Hamas does. Since assuming power in Gaza in 2007, the Islamic Resistance Movement has come to understand that many reporters are committed to a narrative wherein Israelis are oppressors and Palestinians passive victims with reasonable goals, and are uninterested in contradictory information. Recognizing this, certain Hamas spokesmen have taken to confiding to Western journalists, including some I know personally, that the group is in fact a secretly pragmatic outfit with bellicose rhetoric, and journalists -eager to believe the confession, and sometimes unwilling to credit locals with the smarts necessary to deceive them- have taken it as a scoop instead of as spin
When Hamas’s leaders surveyed their assets before this summer’s round of fighting, they knew that among those assets was the international press. The AP staff in Gaza City would witness a rocket launch right beside their office, endangering reporters and other civilians nearby-and the AP wouldn’t report it, not even in AP articles about Israeli claims that Hamas was launching rockets from residential areas. (This happened.) Hamas fighters would burst into the AP’s Gaza bureau and threaten the staff-and the AP wouldn’t report it. (This also happened.) Cameramen waiting outside Shifa Hospital in Gaza City would film the arrival of civilian casualties and then, at a signal from an official, turn off their cameras when wounded and dead fighters came in, helping Hamas maintain the illusion that only civilians were dying. (This too happened; the information comes from multiple sources with firsthand knowledge of these incidents.)».


«If you say that Hamas is anti-Semitic, if you quote their charter, if you look too closely at exactly what their goals are, and who they are, then it would disrupt the narrative, according to which Israel is an aggressor, and the Palestinians are passive victims who have reasonable goals»
https://www.investigativeproject.org/58 ... ss-in-gaza


- 'Lord Grade accuses BBC of anti-Israel bias in Lords debate', 05/07/2017
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFqBidfx8kE

- Middle East coverage in the German media: Perpetrators turned into victims', 27/07/2017
http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Confl ... ims-500896

- New York Times public editor Margaret Sullivan calls for ...
https://archive.is/wR5xu#selection-2497.3-2497.428


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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:57 am

Jewish Home Boy: in line with what Kleon just posted, I'd be interested in what conclusions/concerns you have reached which are different from what you perceive the generally accepted state of affairs is.

For instance, far removed and not much engaged, my view of one important issue is that most people agree that a Two State Solution is the solution to the dispute with only small details to be worked out...like where to put the borders.... small things like that. The point being: while most people agree this is the solution, its only a few hard right Jewish leaders like Netanyahu who is preventing this from happening.

My own view has been laid out above.........what's yours?
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Oozy_Substance » Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:06 am

I'm from Israel so you may ask me questions if you have some.
But I am highly biased toward my own country, of course.

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:43 am

Oozy_Substance wrote:I'm from Israel so you may ask me questions if you have some.
But I am highly biased toward my own country, of course.

Why is there so much sand there?
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Oozy_Substance » Mon Nov 06, 2017 8:58 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Oozy_Substance wrote:I'm from Israel so you may ask me questions if you have some.
But I am highly biased toward my own country, of course.

Why is there so much sand there?


Actually Israel is quite diversed in its landscapes when you compare it to its rather small size.
Northern Israel is far from being a desert and having green landscapes. Not as green as Europe, of course, but green.
Only Southern Israel is a desert.
Central Israel is in between.

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:02 pm

Oozy_Substance wrote:I'm from Israel so you may ask me questions if you have some.
But I am highly biased toward my own country, of course.



Hi, Oozy.

What is the opinion in Israel about a separate Palestinian State? Is it a consideration or is it a non-starter?

Are Israelis aware of the conditions of the Gaza Strip and what is their opinion of it?

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Oozy_Substance » Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:37 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Oozy_Substance wrote:I'm from Israel so you may ask me questions if you have some.
But I am highly biased toward my own country, of course.



Hi, Oozy.

What is the opinion in Israel about a separate Palestinian State? Is it a consideration or is it a non-starter?

Are Israelis aware of the conditions of the Gaza Strip and what is their opinion of it?


Hi.

When you say "a separate Palestinian state" do you mean the Two-State Solution ?

I'd say that, to put things simple, the Two-State Solution is widely accepted by the Israeli public. Yet I believe that a lot of people stopped believing that it is still possible, due to various reasons. My personal opinion is that both sides aren't really eager to negotiate and each side wishes to play its own game. Israel wishes to maintain the status quo as long as possible and construct settlements in the meantime, as the Palestinian Authority wants to avoid the negotiations and attack Israel via the international organizations such as UN, UNESCO or the Interpol where they enjoy from a automatic majority.

Right now there are no negotiations but there are reports Trump is about to place something on the table and may force both sides to swallow the bitter pills.

Israelis are aware to the conditions in the Gaza Strip but place most blame on Hamas, and I quite agree with it. Israel also supplies goods to Gaza on a daily basis. Trucks with good from Israel cross into Gaza every day. This is despite that Hamas, which reigns there, along with other extreme militias such as the Palestinian Islamic Jihad, are all devoted to destroy Israel.

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:21 pm

Oozy_Substance wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Oozy_Substance wrote:I'm from Israel so you may ask me questions if you have some.
But I am highly biased toward my own country, of course.



Hi, Oozy.

What is the opinion in Israel about a separate Palestinian State? Is it a consideration or is it a non-starter?

Are Israelis aware of the conditions of the Gaza Strip and what is their opinion of it?


Hi.

When you say "a separate Palestinian state" do you mean the Two-State Solution ?

I'd say that, to put things simple, the Two-State Solution is widely accepted by the Israeli public. Yet I believe that a lot of people stopped believing that it is still possible, due to various reasons. My personal opinion is that both sides aren't really eager to negotiate and each side wishes to play its own game. Israel wishes to maintain the status quo as long as possible and construct settlements in the meantime, as the Palestinian Authority wants to avoid the negotiations and attack Israel via the international organizations such as UN, UNESCO or the Interpol where they enjoy from a automatic majority.

Right now there are no negotiations but there are reports Trump is about to place something on the table and may force both sides to swallow the bitter pills.

Israelis are aware to the conditions in the Gaza Strip but place most blame on Hamas, and I quite agree with it. Israel also supplies goods to Gaza on a daily basis. Trucks with good from Israel cross into Gaza every day. This is despite that Hamas, which reigns there, along with other extreme militias such as the Palestinian Islamic Jihad, are all devoted to destroy Israel.



Thank you, Oozy.

I agree that both sides seem unwilling to negotiate, I also add that it doesn’t help matters when leaders of Hamas still say they want to wipe Israel off the map (among others). I do mean the two-State solution.

If Trump breaks this deadlock and stops the killing then I will applaud him, even though I personally despise the man. Though, if I was you, I wouldn’t put too much stock in his negotiating skills. Trump only works when he can bully, it won’t work in this situation.

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Nov 06, 2017 8:07 pm

Oozy: you post a very "standard" analysis/appreciation/judgment of the situation. Any unique opinions?
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Oozy_Substance » Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:40 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Oozy: you post a very "standard" analysis/appreciation/judgment of the situation. Any unique opinions?


Well, I think the settlers won. More or less. And I don't really mind, to be honest.
There are about 550k to 700k settlers and I am OK with that. Actually, even the Jewish residents of neighborhoods in East Jerusalem are considered as settlers. Personally I am not a settler.
The settlers have a larger fertility rate than the Jews living in Israel-proper. While the fertility rate in Israel is high, compared to the West, the fertility rate among the settlers is even higher. Also, there are more religious/haredi people among the settlers, so they tend to have more children.

I expect the number of settlers to grow more and more. Maybe they will cross the 1 million bar. Who knows. By now they are almost 20% of the population in the West Bank. I believe it cannot be undone.

Most Israelis agree that the Settlement Blocs should stay intact, by the way. The Settlement Blocs are areas in West Bank where there is a massive amount of settlers and/or many settlements are concentrated.

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:52 pm

Again: very standard. "Possession is 9/10th's of the law."...works in land grabs as well. Hard to claim an interest in vacant desert.

Fertility rates. Now, there's a nub. Do you agree the freest Arabs in the Middle East live in Israel? I thought they had some kind of limitation on voting.....or that their voting would be an issue given their high fertility?....or was that for the Gaza Arabs who still argue for the right of return nonsense?

Never Forget. Do too many Israeli's forget?....assume some kinder nature of man??==>their sworn enemies?????

Even in Israel, and even in Gaza, seems to me too many people blindly cannot see/determine their own best interests.....
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Oozy_Substance » Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:00 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Again: very standard. "Possession is 9/10th's of the law."...works in land grabs as well. Hard to claim an interest in vacant desert.

Fertility rates. Now, there's a nub. Do you agree the freest Arabs in the Middle East live in Israel? I thought they had some kind of limitation on voting.....or that their voting would be an issue given their high fertility?....or was that for the Gaza Arabs who still argue for the right of return nonsense?

Never Forget. Do too many Israeli's forget?....assume some kinder nature of man??==>their sworn enemies?????

Even in Israel, and even in Gaza, seems to me too many people blindly cannot see/determine their own best interests.....


Israeli-Arabs have no limits in voting. I don't know if they are the most free Arabs in the Middle-East. No idea.

The Palestinians still demand the Right of Return, that is the "return" of 6-7 million Palestinians into Israel-proper.. most of whom were not born here.

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Oozy_Substance » Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:01 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
I agree that both sides seem unwilling to negotiate, I also add that it doesn’t help matters when leaders of Hamas still say they want to wipe Israel off the map (among others). I do mean the two-State solution.

If Trump breaks this deadlock and stops the killing then I will applaud him, even though I personally despise the man. Though, if I was you, I wouldn’t put too much stock in his negotiating skills. Trump only works when he can bully, it won’t work in this situation.


Maybe Trump can bully both sides. I don't know. He seems like a very unpredictable character. btw, are you an American?

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:15 pm

Oozy_Substance wrote:
Maybe Trump can bully both sides. I don't know. He seems like a very unpredictable character. btw, are you an American?


Yes.

I wouldn’t count on Trump fixing it but one never knows.

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:35 pm

He alone can fix it.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Tue Nov 07, 2017 8:25 am

On Balfour Declaration 100 years mark, if anyone wants to take a look, these were fascinating readings for me:

- Who Saved Israel in 1947? (The usual answer is Truman—but it could just as easily be Stalin. In fact, thanks to Zionist diplomacy, it was both; and therein lies a lesson for the Jewish state today).
https://mosaicmagazine.com/essay/2017/1 ... l-in-1947/

- Ronnie Fraser, Before Balfour: The Labour Party’s War Aims memorandum, Fathom, Summer 2017
http://fathomjournal.org/balfour-100-be ... emorandum/

- The Forgotten Truth about the Balfour Declaration - It is no longer a British imperial grab but the outcome of a carefully constructed consensus of the leading democracies of the day, Mosaic, 05/06/2017
https://mosaicmagazine.com/essay/2017/0 ... claration/


And also two free on-line essays collection publications:

- Colin Shindler & Alan Johnson & Toby Greene & Elias Zananiri & Gershon Shafir & Azriel Bermant & James Sorene & Efraim Halevy & Ronnie Fraser & Donna Robinson Devine & Jonathan Schneer, Balfour 100 The Fathom Essays, 2017
http://fathomjournal.org/wp-content/upl ... ersion.pdf

- Toby Greene & James Sorene & Azriel Bermant & Ronnie Fraser, The Balfour Declaration A selection of essays, 2017
http://www.webelieveinisrael.org.uk/wp- ... essays.pdf
According to experts and scholars, the 10 stages of every genocide are
Classification Symbolization Discrimination Dehumanization Organization Polarization Preparation Persecution Extermination
... and finally the 10th stage:
Denial
http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocide/t ... ocide.html

XYZ Contagion (‘Because the truth is contagious‘), an investigative/research political and historical website, deals also with the Srebrenica Genocide
https://xyzcontagion.wordpress.com/about/#English

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Nov 07, 2017 6:08 pm

Oozy_Substance wrote:Israelis are aware to the conditions in the Gaza Strip but place most blame on Hamas, and I quite agree with it. Israel also supplies goods to Gaza on a daily basis.


Egypt also enforces a blockade of the Gaza Strip for some of the same reasons, terrorist attacks originating from Gaza also took Egyptian lives.

One thing I didn’t know was that the US Army Corps of Engineers assisted the Egyptians in 2009 in clearing out tunnels used for smuggling in/out of Gaza.

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Nov 07, 2017 7:30 pm

Oozy_Substance wrote:
Well, I think the settlers won. More or less. And I don't really mind, to be honest.
There are about 550k to 700k settlers and I am OK with that. Actually, even the Jewish residents of neighborhoods in East Jerusalem are considered as settlers. Personally I am not a settler.
The settlers have a larger fertility rate than the Jews living in Israel-proper. While the fertility rate in Israel is high, compared to the West, the fertility rate among the settlers is even higher. Also, there are more religious/haredi people among the settlers, so they tend to have more children.

I expect the number of settlers to grow more and more. Maybe they will cross the 1 million bar. Who knows. By now they are almost 20% of the population in the West Bank. I believe it cannot be undone.

Most Israelis agree that the Settlement Blocs should stay intact, by the way. The Settlement Blocs are areas in West Bank where there is a massive amount of settlers and/or many settlements are concentrated.


I think therein lies the rub, Oozy. I don’t look at it as a positive that the settlers “won.” The fact they are there and that more settlement units are being planned:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/world/middle_east/israel-approves-plans-for-thousands-of-new-settlement-units-in-the-west-bank/2017/10/10/a3fd5058-ad29-11e7-9b93-b97043e57a22_story.html

Only complicate matters. IMO Netanyahu is caving to settler demands in doing this but I understand the political pressure he is facing. Naturally this doesn’t change my really low opinion of him, I think he is a ginormous ass hat.

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Nov 07, 2017 9:57 pm

Jeff: so what you advocate is that borders should be frozen as of some retro date so that the PLO can continue their refusal to negotiate without any cost to them (land cost) at all? why ever settle then?

Keep arguing and you get less. Seems like a solid basis on which to settle.
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:19 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Jeff: so what you advocate is that borders should be frozen as of some retro date so that the PLO can continue their refusal to negotiate without any cost to them (land cost) at all? why ever settle then?

Keep arguing and you get less. Seems like a solid basis on which to settle.



What I’m saying is continuing to build new settlement units is not a way to defuse tensions in the area. It’s making it worse.

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:31 pm

If the status quo in unacceptable, and you can't make it better...........what ya gonna do?

I admire and support the settlement building approach to the problem. Its like "Manifest Destiny" on a different scale and context.... but all the same. Occupy, dispossess.............build your own Nation. Fight to keep it.

Appealing to the UN is for losers.
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:56 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:If the status quo in unacceptable, and you can't make it better...........what ya gonna do?

I admire and support the settlement building approach to the problem. Its like "Manifest Destiny" on a different scale and context.... but all the same. Occupy, dispossess.............build your own Nation. Fight to keep it.

Appealing to the UN is for losers.



Then the answer is to keep building settlements. Gotcha.

So, it’s cool then if the various terrorist groups in the area (Hamas, Army of Islam, etc.) continue trying to kill the Israeli settlers in the area or simply continue various terrorist activities?

Bobo, the whole idea behind the UN is to give countries another way besides war to settle problems. Granted, for the most part it’s failed but that’s besides the point. Any attempt to settle differences without bloodshed is not for losers.

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:05 pm

Jeff..... you present a nice mix of contradicting facts and fallacies ab initio:

1. Then the answer is to keep building settlements. Gotcha. //// That is in fact what is going on........so, it is at least one answer. I recommend it for the reasons given.....that you don't address at all.

2. So, it’s cool then if the various terrorist groups in the area (Hamas, Army of Islam, etc.) continue trying to kill the Israeli settlers in the area or simply continue various terrorist activities? //// No....its not cool. Its conflict. Those terrorist groups have been killing Israelis since 1947.......so, building settlements is just the excuse du jour. You don't support du juour excuse coddling do you? Its very short sighted actually putting your own fate into the hands of people who have declared and have acted to kill you for any excuse available, or no excuse at all: just because you are alive. Is this not true?........so..... actually you have no position at all.

3. Bobo, the whole idea behind the UN is to give countries another way besides war to settle problems. //// Yes...."when they can."

4. Granted, for the most part it’s failed but that’s besides the point. ///// Ha. ha..........No Jeff. THATS THE VERY POINT.

5. Any attempt to settle differences without bloodshed is not for losers. /// In context, your recommendation is to cave into the demands of the PLO with NOTHING in return: only guaranteeing continuuing hostility until Israel is erased from the Map of the Earth. When "peace" does not work......what is your alternative???? Be real about your answer instead of offering failed solutions. War, force, misery, innocent people being abused and killed: its how Nation States are formed and maintained. You know this.......but somehow fail to incorporate REALITY into your emotional appreciation of realpolitik. iow: a stooge. Thats ok...... stooges/dupes are valued by enemies everywhere.
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:54 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Jeff..... you present a nice mix of contradicting facts and fallacies ab initio:


I’m going to try and care. No, really.

1. Then the answer is to keep building settlements. Gotcha. //// That is in fact what is going on........so, it is at least one answer. I recommend it for the reasons given.....that you don't address at all.


Those settlements are a serious point of contention. Continuing to build them ratchets up the tension in the area.

Is that clear? Or do I need to use smaller words?

2. So, it’s cool then if the various terrorist groups in the area (Hamas, Army of Islam, etc.) continue trying to kill the Israeli settlers in the area or simply continue various terrorist activities? //// No....its not cool. Its conflict.


So, it’s OK if those groups continue committing terrorist acts...thereby provoking an Israeli response.

Got it.
Is it OK if people object to such a thing? Or is conflict intended to last forever?

Those terrorist groups have been killing Israelis since 1947.......


I’m not going to go into the history of the various terrorist groups, both Jewish and Islamic.

so, building settlements is just the excuse du jour. You don't support du juour excuse coddling do you?


I don’t support the killing of people in general, be they Jewish or Islamic. Or Christian. Or Buddhist. It’s a weakness, I know.

Its very short sighted actually putting your own fate into the hands of people who have declared and have acted to kill you for any excuse available,


WTF are you talking about? Who said anything about putting anyone’s fate in anyone’s hands?
Bobo, I advocate for a two-state solution, an Israeli and a Palestinian State, not a single state for either side. Why? Because I see it as the equitable solution, neither side gets exactly what they want.

or no excuse at all: just because you are alive. Is this not true?........so..... actually you have no position at all.


I just gave you my position.

I deleted the BS about the UN, that’s a subject for another day.

5. Any attempt to settle differences without bloodshed is not for losers. /// In context, your recommendation is to cave into the demands of the PLO with NOTHING in return:


Huh?
Where did I say that?

only guaranteeing continuuing hostility until Israel is erased from the Map of the Earth. When "peace" does not work......what is your alternative???? Be real about your answer instead of offering failed solutions.


Bobo, where have I offered a “failed solution?” Why is the two-State solution a “failed solution?”


War, force, misery, innocent people being abused and killed: its how Nation States are formed and maintained. You know this.......but somehow fail to incorporate REALITY into your emotional appreciation of realpolitik.


I think I’m remembering why I avoid interacting with you.

iow: a stooge. Thats ok...... stooges/dupes are valued by enemies everywhere.


Now you are being insulting.

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:03 am

Why is the two-State solution a “failed solution?” /// Because the PLO refuses to accept any border offered while Israel refuses to offer borders that leave it overly exposed. Because PLO refuses to declare that Israel has a right to exist. In such refusal, a two state solution only makes PLO stronger and more able to continue in its long term goal to kill every Israeli on Earth.

Never forget.
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:42 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Why is the two-State solution a “failed solution?” /// Because the PLO refuses to accept any border offered while Israel refuses to offer borders that leave it overly exposed. Because PLO refuses to declare that Israel has a right to exist. In such refusal, a two state solution only makes PLO stronger and more able to continue in its long term goal to kill every Israeli on Earth.


So, your solution is to allow the killings to continue until all the Palestinians in the area are dead.
Great.

Never forget.


Apparently you forget that genocide is frowned upon.

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:59 am

Jeff: you don't actually engage the counter realities pointed out to you given you don't see them for yourself. You go so far a to make recommendations that you then immediately admit don't work. Does that make ANY SENSE to you at all? Once you recognize that some situations simply call for war, death, and destruction until the parties are sick and tired of it enough to compromise.........or finish the job all the way, if they can............. then suggesting one side is wrong because they are fighting is just being ...............pick the right word.......... not realistic. Which is exactly WHY Israel is doing as it is. Yes, they "could" keep their development to old border lines and stop the settlements...but why do that? You say to lessen if not stop the hostilities....but why do that at all unless the hostilities STOP? As stated....its entirely reasonable to make settlements as it strengthens your position for more land when a two state solution is reached and more importantly FOR YOUR OWN ARGUMENT: it puts more pressure on the PLO to agree to peace.

Main Point: you can't make peace unilaterally. You can't make peace with someone who wants to kill you. You post as if being a pacifist would be the better course of action. We will never know as that is counterfactual at this point. Reasonable people........disagree. If a bully comes up to you to take your wallet from you.........I agree. I would give my wallet to the bully....not worth the fight. How many times would I do it? Not too many before I would go out in public without a wallet. But can you see how that analogy breaks down when it comes to nation states?

Expanding: two state solution. Has there ever been a two state solution that wasn't based on basically a nice straight line/natural break being recognized? The gerrymandered wandering all around lines proposed for Israel/PLO could never work, except for a drug induced bad acid trip. A two state solution with a right of return to swamp Israel? .... NO way.

Its not pretty. Start analyzing with that recognition.....or just say flat out you don't want Israel to exist. The conflict EXISTS because that is the formulation of enough people that count. Wishing it otherwise...........irrelevant.
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Nov 08, 2017 1:01 am

BTW, before anyone reads that and gets the wrong impression, no, Israel is not committing genocide against the Palestinians. I’m trying to drive home the point that bobo is being ridiculous.

The issue is that the current conditions cannot stand. We’ve seen atrocities committed by the IDF, one thread is entirely committed to one instance.

The problem is that terrorist attacks on Israeli civilians and military personnel makes atrocities inevitable. This breeds further attacks, more reprisals and inevitably more atrocities committed by both sides.

My point is that this cannot continue. Both sides need to come to the table prepared to give up something.

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Nov 08, 2017 1:02 am

Of course it can continue. Why not?
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Balsamo » Wed Nov 08, 2017 1:19 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Jeff: so what you advocate is that borders should be frozen as of some retro date so that the PLO can continue their refusal to negotiate without any cost to them (land cost) at all? why ever settle then?

Keep arguing and you get less. Seems like a solid basis on which to settle.


LOL,
The whole thing about the UN is to make annexation illegal for its members. Quite a simple concept actually. The borders of the States belonging to the UN are meant to be frozen by the charter. No complexity in that, and please don't come up with your usual " Nation States were formed by violence and war and it is only human nature". That was true up to 1945, and that is it.

But then of course the PLO will have to accept to negotiate. In my humble opinion this is reachable, but one condition would be to impose legal international responsibility on the Palestinian Authority, wich is also kind of an Unknown Political concept. The current status gives them too many excuses for their own excess. Only a State, recognized and member of the UN, can be forced to comply with the rules. Under the current circumstances, actually no one has really any authority on them. By accepting them into the legal international community, you forced them to comply or to face legal consequences better than any Tsahal division could do.
Again pretty simple

I have read that "the right of return", which actually is legally supported is presented as the main obstacle to any peace treaty.
Well that is BS. This would be the easiest point of disagreement to resolve...solution?...Money and compensation.

I am still amazed that there is still this taboo or ignorance when it comes at what really prevent both parties to find a compromise, and amazed that it has not been mentioned in this thread.
Well the core of the war is quite simple: JERUSALEM.

It had been recognized as a problem from the start which is why the UN decided to bring the city under an "International status", which was from the start - although left unsaid - rejected by the Jews, while the Palestinians were rejecting the whole plan.

Today, even the simple idea of a partition of the city is absolutely "unthinkable" by both sides.

The one who would solve the "Jerusalem" problem would bring peace. But given that none of the parties involved even would consider to even discuss that matter, the current state is doomed to linger, unless the international community retakes its right, and takes the decision by itself.
This is why the myth that a solution can be reached only by the parties involved is a joke.

It is also about time that we ceased to use the "too much complexities" as an excuse for doing nothing.
there is no future for both parties in continuing this path, but one side has barely nothing left to lose, so i let everyone realizing what the future will look like if nothing is done.

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Balsamo » Wed Nov 08, 2017 1:32 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Of course it can continue. Why not?


What is your problem, really?
Do you really think that less than 10.000.000 Jews can fight against the entire surrounding Muslim world for ever and ever and ever....?
Well, yes, the christian kingdoms managed to last a couple of century, thanks to international aids (in those days called the cruisades), but then got washed out when it ceased.
Do you really think that Israel could just nuke its neighbors to ensure its future?
Israel under its current far right government is losing its popular support at a pace no seen before. Great, there is still the "unconditional" support from the USA.
But how can a decent and honest ruler put the entire fate of his country on this single factor? It is just insane.

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Nov 08, 2017 1:46 am

This is my solution:

Two-States, backed by treaty guaranteeing the borders of both states. Both sides receive compensation but this will be based upon compliance, break the treaties, no money.

A UN peacekeeping force to separate both sides.

The Palestinians agree to no more terrorism and disavow any terrorist groups attempting to break the peace. Ditto for the Israelis.

Is all of this possible? I think so. I think it starts with a US administration capable of putting their foot down with the Israelis, no more new settlements or your aid will suffer.

I think we are a long way from that. I do think that if conditions continue we will get to that.

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Nov 08, 2017 2:03 am

Balsamo wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Of course it can continue. Why not?


What is your problem, really?
Moi??? I don't have any problem at all. Even if I did/do....what's that got to do with the Israeli/PLO dispute???? are you confusing personalities and meaningless baseless groundless accusations with .................... analysis??? Could that be......... what should we call it?.................. YOUR .............I'll say: tactic. About as effective as giving up land and position to an enemy who wants you dead. I think thats called appeasement. Generally....... doesn't work.

Balsamo wrote:Do you really think that less than 10.000.000 Jews can fight against the entire surrounding Muslim world for ever and ever and ever....?
"....♫.... For ever and ever and ever,,,?" Ummmm....no. I would stop at two evers. Three evers is two many evers. Now..........for evers. Four Evers???? I'm confused about how long ever is. Is ever like infinity where two evers is the same length of time as one ever or is it half the time of four evers? Inquiring minds want to know.

Balsamo wrote: Well, yes, the christian kingdoms managed to last a couple of century, thanks to international aids (in those days called the cruisades), but then got washed out when it ceased.
Hmmmm....I'm thinking a couple of centuries might be ONE ever? what do you think?

Balsamo wrote: Do you really think that Israel could just nuke its neighbors to ensure its future?
Who said Nukes? Thats the other thread. I think you can argue that with Xouper and his useful as cars analogy. I would certainly HOPE that if dropping a few Nukes would ensure Israeli's future that they would have dropped/launched/trucked in those Nukes by now........but they haven't. I thought Nukes were meant to stop the Arabs from completely overrunning the country.....although, that doesn't seem to be in the history/recognition of the Arabs either....Yom Kippur...the 1973 War was nearly lost....I don't have a firm memory if Israel had their Nukes then...I'd guess Yes, but don't know, but the Arabs didn't care. Hmmm...nukes is an issue....not connected at all to Israeli "winning" its peace. Are you actually thinking of anything, or just nuking around? "....nuk....nuk.....nuk....."

Balsamo wrote: Israel under its current far right government is losing its popular support at a pace no seen before. Great, there is still the "unconditional" support from the USA.
Congrats. The first rational/legitimate/relevant statement you have made. Yes....losing popular support. Should get a "two state Prime Minister" into Office............then what? He sits down with PLO who wants 1967 borders, removal of settlements, or really turn over of settlements to PLO free of charge of course, right of return, and of course a wink wink nod nod that they will cease efforts to wipe Israel off the face of the Earth. And this two state Prime Minister will respond, and the people of Israel will respond............... how?

Balsamo wrote: But how can a decent and honest ruler put the entire fate of his country on this single factor? It is just insane.
What you talkin' bout Willis? Could apply to each factor you offer..... but what is the single factor? IN CONTEXT..........the best answer is: the Right of Israel to Exist? But......to achieve THAT...... a leader might have to be not decent, and not honest. You know: an actual leader. Most were a-holes. The nice guys don't go into politics.

As it fell out of my answer: there is no forever in human affairs. I set the context already: both sides will fight each other until one or both get tired of it. Not forever. Not next week.
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Nov 08, 2017 2:05 am

My solution is: both sides agree to peace.

Good job.
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