The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

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The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Oct 22, 2017 3:45 pm

So, we wandered off into a tangent on the Trump thread about Israel and Palestine. To give people an opportunity to discuss it I decided to open this thread.

I realize this is off topic for this subforum but I think we could stretch this to make it fit...after all, the Holocaust and it’s aftermath is a major contributing factor in the formation of Israel, also deniers whine about Israel and its policies all of the time....plus the fact that most of us primarily post here makes it easier for the regulars to discuss it. That is, if they want to.

Let’s face it, we’ve posted off-topic threads here before. I want to know more about it so feel free to post your links and relevant books here.

The goal of this is not to pick a fight, it’s to give people a chance to post relevant information about the subject. My own feeling is that a two-state solution is the best solution, the issue is how much is either side willing to come to the table.

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Oct 22, 2017 3:46 pm

BTW, my preference is to keep this chronological to make it easier to follow.

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Oct 22, 2017 3:54 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:BTW, my preference is to keep this chronological to make it easier to follow.

What does that mean?
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Oct 22, 2017 4:01 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote: My own feeling is that a two-state solution is the best solution, the issue is how much is either side willing to come to the table.

There is no such thing as a "best" solution. There are ALWAYS interests that benefit and interests that are or feel injured.

"Pros and Cons to all we do."

I assume..............you assume........that a two state solution means peace? But isn't the stated concern byIsrael that two states only gives the PLO, still dedicated to the destruction of Israel as a sovereign state, the enhanced ability to prepare for an eventual war of conquest?

So...........who/what does a two state solution benefit and who does it harm? Is two state solution just a label ..... meaning it sounds good but doesn't mean anything? Does a two state solution include intimate non standard control/interference/monitoring by Israel or do you mean two Sovereign independent states a la the traditional model...but intertwined with each other (Walls, corridors, isolated territories surrounded by "the other" and so forth).

Or do you mean a two state solution AFTER PLO agrees not to seek the destruction of Israel and how is that agreement to be monitored and enforced......by whom?

etc.
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Oct 22, 2017 4:15 pm

Oh, crap, bobo is the first one to comment...

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Oct 22, 2017 4:16 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:BTW, my preference is to keep this chronological to make it easier to follow.

What does that mean?


It means to go in chronological order.

FFS.

So, bobo, let’s start around the founding of the state of Israel.

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Oct 22, 2017 4:35 pm

Why not Moses fleeing Egypt? Wasn't that when God gave Israel to his chosen few?
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Oct 22, 2017 4:50 pm

I don’t really believe in God, bobo, so leave out the irrelevant twaddle.

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Oct 22, 2017 4:59 pm

So.......in what is basically a religious dispute, we should leave out the twaddle about God?

Ok. As a staunch anti-Theist, I'm all for it.

What twaddle do you want to restrict the discourse to? What documents were signed....or not signed? That kind of twaddle? OR....................what is really DRIVING the conflict..........which might, but might not, actually hold a clue as to how to solve it?

....................what if God took sides?
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Oct 22, 2017 5:08 pm

ll....................I'll take it back.

..................but: God wants all his kiddies to live in peace with one another. Seems to me a crack in the emnity might be some long sustained notion of the PLO giving up its intolerance to unbelievers................a reformation of sorts. Looks to me to be about "the only" way to bring peace to the area.

A long term effort..........if you choose not to just kill them all, as EVERY OTHER NATION HAS DONE.
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Oct 22, 2017 5:13 pm

One of the early formation issues that has always interested me: what was Exodus really? did the Jews go into the area and kick most of the Arabs out, or did the Arabs mostly leave by their own choice for the purpose of forming an army and retaking the land.......they lost.........so now they want to subvert the sovereignty of Israel by peaceful means?

Counterfactual: what if all the Arabs had stayed in place and Israel was a country "immediately" as opposed to eventually a land with a great majority of the voting age people to be anti-Jewish? What then? What now??

You can make peace with an enemy..........only when the enemy decides to give it up. If they don't want to give it up, then they are still the enemy. You don't make peace with enemies. You kill them.

Thats history.

EDIT: The above going to the stumbling block of "Right of Return." In my own sense, a right of return has more justification if you were "kicked out" and has no application at all if you left of your own accord to regiment yourself into an attack to kill the invader and you lost.......so now you want to pretend you were kicked out.

The denial of a Right of Return, regardless of details, is very much in the "Kill them all" school of Real Politik and the recognition that Land is taken and held by force.................not any claim of rights from God or documents.

Everything but force.............is twaddle.
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Oct 22, 2017 6:04 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:So.......in what is basically a religious dispute, we should leave out the twaddle about God?


This is a land dispute. Religion is an important issue but not the only issue.

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby NathanC » Sun Oct 22, 2017 6:18 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:the Holocaust and it’s aftermath is a major contributing factor in the formation of Israel.


that's not entirely true. The Balfour declaration was two decades before the Holocaust, and even before WW2 there were already plans to partition the British mandate of Palestine between the Jews and the Arabs (see the 1938 peel commission). The reality is that there was already a sizable Jewish population in pre war Palestine: both the local Mizrahi Jews and Zionists who had been moving there since the late 1800s. The Jewish agency was already a functioning government in the interwar years, with the help of the British. With or without the Holocaust, Palestine would've been partitioned between the two groups.

It's always worth mentioning that most of Israel's Jews are from the middle east or north africa, who were expelled from the Arab states after Israel was founded. Sure, some Holocaust survivors moved to Israel in the aftermath of WW2, but most either stayed in western Europe or moved to the States, Canada or Australia. After the hell they went through, they mostly wanted to live in a stable, western country instead of having to fight for their lives in a poor country like the new Jewish state was at the time.

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby NathanC » Sun Oct 22, 2017 6:24 pm

http://www.yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/Micro ... 203575.pdf

Sergey Romanov shared this once. It makes the compelling case that the main motivation of the UN was to end the violence that was escalating between the Yishuv and the Arabs by partitioning Palestine. Not "guilt" for the Holocaust. And quite frankly, given the actions of the US (operation paperclip and the leniency towards Nazi criminals) and the USSR (Do not divide the dead and Stalin's own increasing antisemitism), I no longer give credence to the idea that they "gave" Palestine to the Jews because they "felt sorry for them". It's more likely that Stalin wanted to buy the support of the new Jewish state and gain a foothold in the middle east, and that the US had to support partition as well to undercut Stalin.

Also, none of Israel's founders (Golda mier, Ben Gurion, Weizmann) were Holocaust survivors. Most of them were already living in Palestine at the time and did so for a long time. The closest would be Menachem Begin, but unless I'm mistaken, he was a complete nobody at the time and only became prominent in politics After Israel was founded,
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Oct 22, 2017 6:25 pm

Thanks Nathan.

I "used to" know just what you posted.........but over time, I had reverted to Israel being mostly energized by the Holocaust. Its good to be set straight..........once again. I also think I could be refreshed on how the Arabs fought for the Nazi's?....which also fed into the Holocaust being key to the formation of Israel....but "not entirely true."

There is always more history to know.........and to remember............and then that History often hardly matters at all. A nice tension.
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Balsamo » Sun Oct 22, 2017 8:18 pm

Hi Jeffk,

My feeling is that thread is maybe a little too ambitious.
It would take a dozen of sub-thread only to clarify the basis, really. And most probably, only polemics would come out of it.
Wouldn't be better to have a more positive stands, like "your propositions to get out of this mess?"

Just my 5 cents.

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Oct 22, 2017 8:20 pm

NathanC wrote:that's not entirely true. The Balfour declaration was two decades before the Holocaust, and even before WW2 there were already plans to partition the British mandate of Palestine between the Jews and the Arabs (see the 1938 peel commission).


The White Paper of 1939 specifically rejected the partition of Palestine and severely restricted the immigration of Jews into the British Mandate, 75,000 over five years.


The reality is that there was already a sizable Jewish population in pre war Palestine: both the local Mizrahi Jews and Zionists who had been moving there since the late 1800s. The Jewish agency was already a functioning government in the interwar years, with the help of the British. With or without the Holocaust, Palestine would've been partitioned between the two groups.


I don’t disagree, however, at the end of the war there were large numbers of Jewish refugees. Many of them tried returning to their countries of origin but faced persecution, especially in Eastern Europe. Their plight was urgent and something needed to be done with them. The US maintained their own restrictions towards Jewish immigrants until 1948 (regarding DP’s under which 80,000 Jews were admitted) but even that remained stringent. It wasn’t until 1950 that existing immigration laws relaxed to the point where large numbers of Jews were admitted to the US.



It's always worth mentioning that most of Israel's Jews are from the middle east or north africa, who were expelled from the Arab states after Israel was founded. Sure, some Holocaust survivors moved to Israel in the aftermath of WW2, but most either stayed in western Europe or moved to the States, Canada or Australia. After the hell they went through, they mostly wanted to live in a stable, western country instead of having to fight for their lives in a poor country like the new Jewish state was at the time.


All of your points are valid and I certainly respect your views on this.

I will say that it was a contributing factor, public opinion and political pressure forced Truman to voice his support for the partition of Palestine (something he initially opposed and continued to blow hot and cold on). It was a source of embarrassment for the British, at the same time they were broadcasting German crimes and photos of concentration camp survivors they actively tried to halt illegal Jewish immigration into Palestine.

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Oct 22, 2017 8:24 pm

Balsamo wrote:Hi Jeffk,

My feeling is that thread is maybe a little too ambitious.
It would take a dozen of sub-thread only to clarify the basis, really. And most probably, only polemics would come out of it.
Wouldn't be better to have a more positive stands, like "your propositions to get out of this mess?"

Just my 5 cents.


Well, Balsamo, it gives us something to talk about besides Trump.... :D

Really, a lot of this is for my own education. I realize I have only a broad overview.

Also, I thought this would be a good place to make suggestions regarding books, articles and websites.

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Oct 22, 2017 8:37 pm

A little bit out of place but I wanted to post it while I was thinking about it:

https://youtu.be/pXi9JjUjLhY

Kleon posted this in the trump section, it’s very informative.

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby NathanC » Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:20 pm

Jeffk1970 wrote:I don’t disagree, however, at the end of the war there were large numbers of Jewish refugees. Many of them tried returning to their countries of origin but faced persecution, especially in Eastern Europe. Their plight was urgent and something needed to be done with them. .


The point is that what would become Israel - the established Yishuv and the Jewish agency- was already in place long before the survivors arrived. They were the ones who created and founded Israel, not the survivors.

Jeffk1970 wrote: It was a source of embarrassment for the British, at the same time they were broadcasting German crimes and photos of concentration camp survivors they actively tried to halt illegal Jewish immigration into Palestine.


More evidence that undermines the popular feel good notion that "the world" "felt sorry for the Jews".

This is why the Palestinian Authority's attempts to sue the UK for the Balfour declaration come across as desperate and pathetic. Nothing more than a PR stunt. While it is true that the British helped plant the seed for what would become Israel by helping build up the Jewish agency into a functioning government before the war, a lot of that was undone because The UK would ultimately doom millions of Jews to their deaths, both unintentionally with the white paper and intentionally with their sabotage of the Jewish agency's rescue attempts. And even after that, they would continue oppressing the survivors and interning them in their own camps. Killing and arresting Jews isn't good enough for the PA or most Palestinians, it seems.

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Oct 22, 2017 11:01 pm

NathanC wrote:
It was a source of embarrassment for the British, at the same time they were broadcasting German crimes and photos of concentration camp survivors they actively tried to halt illegal Jewish immigration into Palestine.

More evidence that undermines the popular feel good notion that "the world" "felt sorry for the Jews".


Political pressure on Truman forced him to come out for the split of Palestine into a Jewish and Arab state in 1946.

This is why the Palestinian Authority's attempts to sue the UK for the Balfour declaration come across as desperate and pathetic. Nothing more than a PR stunt.


Well, they were there as well, Nathan. They felt entitled to some land of their own.

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Oct 22, 2017 11:01 pm

Maybe this wasn’t such a good idea after all.....

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby NathanC » Sun Oct 22, 2017 11:19 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
This is why the Palestinian Authority's attempts to sue the UK for the Balfour declaration come across as desperate and pathetic. Nothing more than a PR stunt.


Well, they were there as well, Nathan. They felt entitled to some land of their own.


I never said otherwise. The Balfour declaration explicitly said that the new Jewish homeland would not come at the expense of the Arabs.

My point was that whatever Britain did with the Balfour declaration, they undid it because of their actions which directly or indirectly led to the killings of the Jews, and because they pretty much turned on the Jews during and after the war. It doesn't appear to be an issue anymore.
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby NathanC » Sun Oct 22, 2017 11:21 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:Maybe this wasn’t such a good idea after all.....


I think it is. To be honest, I don't know as much about teh I/P conflict as I do the Holocaust. And even then, what I do know about that is like a drop in the bucket compared to what stat mech, you, the other Jeff, Balsamo and Dr. Terry know. I hope that my ideas get challenged so I end up learning more about this.

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Oct 22, 2017 11:33 pm

I’d like to redirect this.

I hate feeling like I’m forced to defend one side or another. I feel sympathy for both sides, the Israelis do have their own security concerns, the Arabs attacked them in 1948, 1967 and 1973. I get it. I also think this state of affairs can't hold, it’s bad what is happening in the Gaza Strip.

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Jeff_36 » Sun Oct 22, 2017 11:36 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:A little bit out of place but I wanted to post it while I was thinking about it:

https://youtu.be/pXi9JjUjLhY

Kleon posted this in the trump section, it’s very informative.


Morris is exactly right - stop building these creepy {!#%@} miniature Jonestowns filled with Baruch Goldstiens on Palestinian territory and tear down the ones that exist right now. There can only be peace when a Palestinian state exists on the 1967 borders or something close to them.

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Oct 23, 2017 1:09 am

Jeff, I gotta say, you gotta way with words.... :D

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:01 am

Jeff_36 wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:A little bit out of place but I wanted to post it while I was thinking about it:

Kleon posted this in the trump section, it’s very informative.


Morris is exactly right - stop building these creepy {!#%@} miniature Jonestowns filled with Baruch Goldstiens on Palestinian territory and tear down the ones that exist right now. There can only be peace when a Palestinian state exists on the 1967 borders or something close to them.


Of course, but I have to insist: When you hear about settlements, please take a moment to find out what the case really is, in every occasion you read something about it.
- Israeli Settlements: Questions and Answers
http://www.myjewishlearning.com/article ... d-answers/

- 5 false myths about settlements - Israeli Settlements Obstacle Peace? FLAME, 2017
http://factsandlogic.org/ad_162/

- Maps: Visualizing the main 'obstacle to peace' (a map from 1993, when the Oslo process was just starting, and a map from 2015)
http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2017/0 ... peace.html

- Find maps of Israeli settlements by a group that supports their growths here.
http://www.ravkooktorah.org/yesha/cg_map.htm

- Find a map of Israeli settlements by a group that opposes their growth here.
http://archive.peacenow.org/map.php

- Getting Settled
https://www.commentarymagazine.com/arti ... g-settled/

- Court freezes law that retroactively legalized unauthorized settler homes - The High Court of Justice temporarily froze on Thursday the Settlements Law, which would retroactively legalize Jewish homes built on private Palestinian property, Jerusalem Post, 17/08/2017
http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Politi ... rty-502679

There are also other types of 'illegal settlements':
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -land.html

http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2016/0 ... a-and.html

Let me transfer this comment from the Trump thread:

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=27757&p=610239#p610239

Actually, I'm against building new settlements, too, but it's such a complicated issue, that needs for all of us to search deep to find out what is the case. So, we have to look for accurate information. I was in surprise to learn that from 1991 until this year, Israel hasn't in fact build any new settlements.
The employment of phrases such as “Israeli settlement building” and “construction of Jewish settlements” obviously leads people to mistakenly believe that Israel is constructing new communities rather than –as is actually the case– building homes in existing towns and villages, most of which would under any reasonable scenario remain under Israeli control in the event of an agreement.


Next, 'Food for thought':
In 1967 there were no settlements. Why there was no peace? Actually, for 19 years (1949-1967) West Bank was judenrein, free of Jews, under Jordanian authority, and Gaza was judenrein under Egyptian authority (in fact Egypt made Gaza the prison camp that is today, reasons for controlling the Palestinians).

Why there was no agreement? Why there was not a single effort for declaring a Palestinian state? Did you know that the call for a Palestinian state was declared by PLO and Fatah only after 1967? Their first Covenant in 1964 didn't have a single word about statehood.

The original PLO charter stated:
Article 24: This Organization does not exercise any territorial sovereignty over the West Bank in the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, on the Gaza Strip or in the Himmah Area.
http://wayback.archive.org/web/20100403 ... /PNA2.html


According to the PLO, areas occupied by Arabs were already 'liberated.' Only the parts controlled by Jews were meant to be targeted to obtain their goals.
Curiously, the words 'state' and 'independence' are also missing from the charter in relationship with its goals. So is any mention of an ancient and historic Palestinian Arab people.
If the original goal of the PLO was not to create a state, not to be independent, and not even to re-establish an ancient homeland, then what was its raison d'etre?
The answer can be seen in Article 18 (or 20 in the 1968 Charter):
Article 18: The claims of historic and spiritual ties between Jews and Palestine are not in agreement with the facts of history or with the true basis of sound statehood. Judaism, because it is a divine religion, is not a nationality with independent existence.

All this is proof positive that the establishment of the PLO, the 'most important and significant event in the history of the Palestinian people,' was not concerned with creating a nation -but in denying one from the Jewish people. And this stance continues to this day by Palestinian Arab leaders.
In other words, the founding principle of the PLO was not nationhood, it was not independence, it was not an appeal to historic ties of a 'people' to the land.
Seems it was simple antisemitism.
And the mindset that created that document has not changed one bit since then.

These are very critical questions. These were some of the first questions that made me change my mind, back in 2002, when I saw the Jenin events, the first major event in the Middle East which someone could follow by his own for the first time, thanks to the internet (I mean I could learn for the first time how the facts were presented by the mainstream media, by the Israeli media and by the pro-Palestinian media, without any mediators, so I could decide for myself who was telling the truth -I was astonished by the Palestinians lies on camera).

Please, take a moment and read this:

http://david-collier.com/the-arab-with- ... f-excuses/
It is an absurd logic that attempts to blame Zionism for creating violence against Jews when modern Zionism *only came about* because of relentless violence against Jews; both in Europe and in the Middle East. You cannot place the cart before the horse.
[...]
Before the partition, before Israel, before the settlements, before the ‘occupation’, before the refugees, before Sharon walked onto Temple Mount, before the ‘wall’, before immigration, before Balfour and before even Zionism itself. In the beginning there was an Arab with a knife and he murdered a Jew, simply because he was a Jew.


I want to underline this again: Posting a link to some text doesn't mean I always agree totally with what it's written inside it. Most of my links are for information/food for thought/discussion reasons.

So, if someone wants to find some answers, please try this, afterwards:

http://fathomjournal.org/we-have-to-sha ... perwasser/

http://www.jns.org/latest-articles/2017 ... o-solution

https://israel-thrives.blogspot.gr/2017 ... -what.html

- Alex Safian, Palestinians Rejected Statehood Three Times (1947, 2000, 2008), Claim Frustration -- with Israel, CAMERA, 22/09/2011
http://wayback.archive.org/web/20160323 ... ticle=2116
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:18 am

If there's no objection, I'd think it would be a good idea to transfer this comment of mine here, just for informative reasons, in order for all to be in one place:

I'm not so sure that in the end it was Britain's and America's mess, what happened in 1947-1948. I used to be, because I grew up too with the narrative 'imperialism planted Israel', but looking closely, I'm not anymore.

For example, Britain didn't vote for Yes for the Partition Plan, and US administration was not that willing to vote for it, either. Both didn't help the Jews with even one single bullet. Both imposed an arms embargo which helped only the Arabs who already had and could obtain tons of weapons from elsewhere. In fact, Britain was fighting along with the Arabs during the invasion of the five Arab armies in 1948, and helped them with instructors and commanders officers, joint air missions etc.
In the US State Department there were the 'Arabists' who didn't want to take decisions unpleasant for the Arab oil-oligarchs. Truman said a 'yes' finally, but perhaps only because had elections in front of him and didn't want to make unhappy his Jewish voters. The US delegation in the UN, I think changed its mind to vote for Yes only after the Soviet Minister's speech, who he claimed the creation of Israel was a follow-up for the Nazi defeat and a kind of antifascist struggle still going on, and the Americans didn't want to lose this anti-nazi glamour.

From what I know now, I believe it was a myth that imperialism planted Israel. In fact, the 600.000 Jews, mostly camps survivors, fought against the British and five well-armed state Arab armies and some not so willing to fight inhabitants (they weren't called 'Palestinians' at the time, in fact they got mad if someone called them that way, it was a name for the Jews, 'we are Arabs, southern Syrians or northern Egyptians' they said, and the name Palestinians along with the new national identity was adopted in the 60s), for an area not bigger than New Jersey. The Arabs already had about 99,8% of the former Ottoman soil for their almost 22 countries, all made by the same pacts as Israel (but nobody questions them), and the then 280 millions population.
And it was so difficult for them to give just a 0,16% of the soil for the jewish survivors? It was, because it was God's land, Allah gave it to the muslims, and the dhimmis couldn't have what was Allah's property, it's all in PLO's and Hamas' Covenants.

After that, I'm not sure either that Israel doesn't want the two-state solution.
I composed once a list.
All these are opportunities for the Palestinians to have their own state. Can anyone count them?

- Balfour Declaration 1917, Churchill White Paper 1922, Passfield White Paper 1930, Hope-Simpson Report 1930, Peel Commission Report 1937, White Paper 1939, Plan for union of Jordan-Arab Palestine (Goldmann, Silver, Shertok, Ben Gurion Plan) 1946, UN Partition Plan 1947, Peace proposals of Count Folke Bernadotte 1948, The Jordan Plan (Jericho Conference) 1948, American trusteeship proposal for Palestine 1948, Call for Armistice Agreements 1949, Lausanne Protocol 1949, Tripartite Agreement 1950, Call for Agreement after Six Days War (Answer: The three NOs) Plan 1967, Allon Plan 1967, Jarring Mission 1967, Rogers Plan (Deep Strike) 1969, King Hussein's federation plan 1972, Camp-David 1978, Fahd Plan 1981, Reagan Plan 1982, Fez Initiative 1982, Israel's Proposals for Self-Governing Authority in the Territories 1982, Madrid Conference 1991, Oslo #1 1993, Protocol on Economic Relations (Paris Protocol) 1994, Gaza Jericho Agreement (Cairo Agreement) 1994, Agreement on Transfer of Powers and Responsibilities 1994, Oslo #2 1995, Washington Summit 1995, Beilin-Abu Mazen Document 1995, Summit of the Peacemakers 1996, Beilin-Eitan 1997, Protocol of Hebron 1997, Wye River Memorandum 1998, Sharm el-Sheikh Memorandum 1999, Camp-David 2000, Sharm el-Sheikh Summit 2000, Clinton Parameters 2001, Taba 2001, Mitchell Report 2001, Tenet Ceasefire Plan 2001, Four Principles 2001, Elon Peace Plan (The Right Road to Peace or Israeli Initiative) 2002, Arab League Peace Initiative (Saudi Initiative) 2002, Zinni Plan 2002, Beirut Summit Plan 2002, Ben-Eliezer Plan 2002, Tenet-Powell-Burns Plan 2002, Ayalon-Nusseibeh Plan (People's Choice) 2002, Isratin (Bi-national state) Plan 2003, Quartet’s Roadmap 2003, Aqaba Summit 2003, Geneva 2003, Lieberman (Populated-Area Exchange) Plan 2004, Sharm el-Sheikh (Egypt) Summit 2005, Unilateral Gaza disengagement 2005, RAND ('The Arc' Plan) 2005, Franco–Italian–Spanish Middle East Peace Plan 2006, Annapolis Conference 2007, Arab League Peace Initiative 2007, Olmert offer for Gaza, East jerusalem and 98,5% of the West Bank 2008, Washington Obama 2010, Israeli Peace Initiative 2011, The Eight Palestinian Emirates (Mordechai Kedar) Plan 2012, John Kerry 2013, Again Obama 2014, EU Initiative 2015, France Initiative 2016, Quartet 2016, Paris Conference 2017, Arab League Peace Initiative 2017 etc


Israelis insist on 'Land for Peace' (as they gave back the 96% of the areas they won in the 1967 war), Palestinians say always 'No'.

- 'Israel’s Quest For Peace'
http://www.stopbds.com/?page_id=64

- 'Over 100 Years of Chronic Arab Rejectionism'
http://www.mythsandfacts.org/Conflict/6 ... ism.htm#A2

There are many aspects that fanatic antizionists don't want to talk about.
Some questions raised here:
http://www.israelhayom.com/2017/10/13/t ... h-complex/

.. and I think there are no answers to these questions, but I think it's better always listening to what the Palestinians say themselves

- Why Can't the Palestinians Recognize the Jewish state?, Institute for Palestine Studies, Journal of Palestine Studies, Vol 40, no. 4 (Summer 2011), p. 78
http://wayback.archive.org/web/20140731 ... =1&iid=160

If Israel is the homeland of the Jewish people, then the lands that it occupies today (and perhaps more, for there are as yet no borders to this 'homeland') belong to this people by way of right. And if these lands rightfully comprise the Jewish homeland, then the Arab presence there becomes historically aberrant and contingent; the Palestinians effectively become historic interlopers and trespassers-a transient presence on someone else’s national soil.
This is not a moot or exaggerated point. It touches on the very core of the conflict and its genesis. Indeed, it is the heart of the Zionist claim to Palestine: Palestine belongs to the Jews and their right to the land is antecedent and superior to that of the Arabs. This is what Zionism is all about, and what justifies both the Jewish return to the land and the dispossession of its Arab inhabitants.
Clearly, this is not the Palestinian Arab narrative, nor can it be. Palestinians do not believe that the historical Jewish presence in and connection to the land entail a superior claim to it. Palestine as our homeland was established in the course of over fifteen hundred years of continuous Arab-Muslim presence; it was only by superior force and colonial machination that we were eventually dispossessed of it. For us to adopt the Zionist narrative would mean that the homes that our forefathers built, the land that they tilled for centuries, and the sanctuaries they built and prayed at were not really ours at all, and that our defense of them was morally flawed and wrongful: we had no right to any of these to begin with.
The demand for the Palestinians to recognize Israel as the homeland of the Jewish people has yet another dimension. It places the moral burden of the conflict on the Palestinians, and consequently, not only exonerates Israel from the dubious moral circumstances of its birth but makes the Palestinians the historical transgressors. Indeed, by refusing to accept the Jewish claim to the land, we are to blame for what has befallen us: had we accepted Israel’s claim during the Mandate years, the entire conflict could have been averted; we should simply have handed the land 'back' to its rightful owners from the time that they began to articulate, at the dawn of the twentieth century, their interest in it as an actual-rather than spiritual-homeland. From this perspective, it is Arab rejection that caused the conflict and not the Zionist transgression against Arab land and rights. This is of course precisely why this Israeli government and its most ardent Zionist supporters want to wrest this recognition from the Palestinians, as it would absolve Israel of its 'original sin' and delegitimize the Palestinians’ version of their own history.
Taking this reasoning to its logical (if extreme) conclusion, recognition would give Israel the right to demand a measure of retributive justice. If the Palestinians caused the conflict, they should pay for their 'sins': the Palestinian refugees should not be compensated for their dispossession, and the Palestinian people as a whole should lose any claim to equality or equivalence in any political settlement premised on supposedly painful or generous Israeli concessions.


This is an academic article. Anyone can see, they don't want, cannot do, and never will recognize that Jews are a people. What two-state solution when they say 'you don't exist'?

_________________________________________________________

And this one from here for clarifying the term 'the Arabs':

I didn't use the term 'the Arabs' in an abstractive, general way. In my mind there was a specific Arab entity, called the Higher Arab Committee, formed in 1945 by the majority or maybe all of the Arab states, and some say with one purpose, to deal with the problem with the Jews (there was another committee with the same name in the 1930s). All these main Arab countries opposed the resolution, voted against it, and promised to go to war to prevent its implementation. Representing the Palestinians, the Arab Higher Committee also opposed the partition Plan and threatened war (while the Jewish Agency, representing the Jewish inhabitants of the Palestine Mandate, supported the plan).

You see, they were acting as one, they were negotiating as one, and finally they declared war to Israel -actually Holy War- as one. And then, it was the name they chose, 'Arab Liberation Army'. This Arab army attacked the Jews long before the declaration of Israel, in fact the next day of the vote for the Partition Plan.

And if someone searches, he will find some not so pleasant statements. For example:
- The Secretary General of the Arab League, Azzam Pasha, stated in September 1947 that the core problem was not a Palestinian state or Jewish expansionism, but the duty to uproot the Jewish presence in Palestine, which was defined by Muslims as Waqf – an area divinely endowed to Islam and not to the 'infidel.'
- The same: 'It will be a war of annihilation. It will be a momentous massacre in history, which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres or the Crusades.'
- Jamal Husseini, the Arab Higher Committee's spokesman and Acting Chairman had told the UN prior to the partition vote the Arabs would drench 'the soil of our beloved country with the last drop of our blood.'
- The same: 'The representative of the Jewish Agency told us yesterday that they were not the attackers, that the Arabs had begun the fighting. We did not deny this. We told the whole world that we were going to fight'.
- The same: 'Palestine shall be consumed with fire and blood if the Jews get any part of it.'
- The Commander-in-Chief of the Arab Liberation Army, Fawzi el-Kaukji, a notorious Nazi collaborator, in August, 1947 threatened: 'Should the UN vote the wrong way, we will initiate a total war... murder, wreck and ruin everything'

- But also: Ismayil Safwat, Commander-in-Chief of the Arab Liberation Army: 'The Jews have not attacked any Arab village, unless attacked first.' (March 23, 1948)

Funny thing, the representative of the Arab Higher Committee to the United Nations submitted a statement to the General Assembly in May 1947 that said "Palestine was part of the Province of Syria" and that, "politically, the Arabs of Palestine were not independent in the sense of forming a separate political entity."

- The Arab Higher Committee published a pamphlet in March 1948 urging the evacuation of women, children and the elderly from areas affected by the fighting. The local Palestinian leadership (or 'National Committee') in Jerusalem heeded this call, ordering Jerusalem Arabs to evacuate these populations, and asserting that those who resisted doing so would be seen as 'an obstacle to the Holy War' and as 'hampering' the actions of the Arab fighters.

Worth mentioning that this executive body was chaired by the renown Hajj Amin al-Husseini that was to lead the Palestinians both in the 1936-1939 Revolt and in the 1947-1948 war against the Yishuv, referred to the Palestinian National movement as "the holy national jihad movement."

And the truth is, they violated UN Resolution 181 and the decision of the Security Council or of the General Assembly and the UN Charter.

For more:

https://archive.is/WkL8c

http://www.jpost.com/Blogs/Classroom-Ba ... ion-474115

The second fact is that the partition plan was fair, was not unjust: UN gave the areas with Jewish majority to Jews, and areas with Arab majority to the Arabs. We should not forget, also, that the 80% of the original area meant to be a 'Jewish home' was given to the Jordanian Arabs in order to form Transjordan. They promised that they would not ask for anything more, but they didn't keep their promise. Again, the Jews said OK, because of the desperate need to form a home, even in the size of a tablecloth. But yet again, in 1947 the Arabs said No.

The fundamental fact remains that had the Arabs and the Palestinians accepted the Partition Resolution and not violated the UN Charter by attacking Israel, there would be a 70-year-old Palestinian state today next to Israel, and there would not have been a single Palestinian refugee.
Just as today, it seems that even in 1948 the Arab side was more concerned with opposing the Jewish state than with creating a Palestinian state. This is why the problem remains unresolved.
There are in fact three separate conflicts that are erupting in the same place, involving more or less the same people. They have separate goals, but they are interwoven in a complex way, which is detrimental to the ending of any of them.
The first is the political conflict between the State of Israel and the PLO and its embodiment as the Palestinian Authority. This is a dispute over borders, settlements, security and other geopolitical issues.
The second is the national conflict between the Jewish people and those of the Arabs whose self-defining national narrative is that of Palestinians. This is a dispute that can be described as an argument for the historical title on the land between the river and the sea.
The third is the religious conflict between Jews and Muslims.

I don't know if there is someone today who can solve this problem, and I doubt that Trump or Jared can take in consideration all these.

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:40 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:So.......in what is basically a religious dispute, we should leave out the twaddle about God?


This is a land dispute. Religion is an important issue but not the only issue.


I used to think it as a land dispute, too. Now I believe the land issue is the most unimportant of all. It's something deeper, and it took me long time to realize it. There are at least three other conflicts, one inside the other, and the question of the land comes at the end. Please:

- The Legacy - The war of 1948 left four open issues
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/isr ... ar-of-1948

- Why the Arab World Is Lost in an Emotional Nakba, and How We Keep It There, Tablet, 24/07/2014
http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-an ... onal-nakba

- Honor-shame As Source Of The Conflict’s Perdurance, Augean Stables, 2011
http://www.theaugeanstables.com/said-and-honor-shame/

- The unrecognized ‘Nakba’: The ongoing catastrophe of bad Palestinian decisions - Pick a date. When to commemorate the real catastrophe?
http://david-collier.com/remember-catastrophe-nakba/

- Nakba, Naksa, Naqsba: The Victimization of Palestinian Refugees, Augean Stables, 11/05/2017
http://www.theaugeanstables.com/2017/05 ... -refugees/

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:07 am

Thanks, Kleon. Very informative.

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:16 pm

This is the review of an Emeritus Professor at SOAS, University of London and founding chairman of the European Association of Israel Studies for a new book in which a veteran of the British Left, Sean Matgamna, shows the mistakes of his own ideological friends. Matgamna must be one of a kind since in the Israeli-Arab conflict he's absolutely out of the box in his (leftist but anti-stalinist) critique. I'm really disappointed that this book won't be translated in Greek, as I've read many articles of it here and there in English and I was astonished of the clear mind of this guy. Some of these can be found in a special publication, some 20 pages, if anyone wants to take a look:

http://www.workersliberty.org/system/files/wl57.pdf

For small summaries of these articles, see here.

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Tue Oct 24, 2017 11:51 am

This is a fascinating reading:

- The Holocaust Was an Arab Story, Too
https://www.haaretz.com/the-holocaust-w ... o-1.136179

Citizens of Arab nations also played a role in the events of World War II, whether as villains or heroes, collaborators or 'righteous gentiles.'
[...]
As for the [Arab] heroes who helped save Jews from pain, injury, indignity and perhaps death, they included:

* The bey of Tunis and, more famously though less conclusively, the sultan of Morocco, both of whom provided vital moral support to their Jewish subjects, as well as practical help to a number of Jewish personalities and their families;

* The Arab country squire who opened his farm to 60 Jews escaping from an Axis forced-labor camp in Tunisia's Zaghouan valley;

* An Arab notable in the Tunisian seaside town of Mahdia who, upon learning that a German officer was bent on raping a local Jewish woman, whisked away her entire family in the middle of the night and kept them hidden on his farm for several weeks until the Germans quit the town.

* The Arab politician who secretly warned and offered shelter to his long-time Jewish friends when Nazi SS troops were planning raids against the Jewish leadership in Tunis;

* Religious leaders in Algiers who forbade any Muslim from serving as a Vichy-appointed conservator of Jewish property;

* Arab inmates of a prison camp in the Algerian desert who forged an anti-fascist bond with their Jewish prison mates;

* And, in faraway Paris, the rector of the municipal mosque, Si Kaddour Bengabrit, who is said to have given Jewish children counterfeit certificates of good standing as Muslims, thereby enabling them to escape deportation.

Taken together, this history is rarely told, and the heroes, in particular, have never been recognized. Of the more than 20,000 "righteous" honored by Israel's Yad Vashem for rescuing Jews from death during the Holocaust, not a single one is an Arab (though there are a number of Muslims). My view is that there are two reasons for this: Few ever looked for "Arab righteous," and fewer still had an incentive to be found.


On the same subject:

- In first, Yad Vashem to bestow Righteous Gentile honor to an Arab
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.818521

- Why is only one Arab a Righteous Gentile for saving Jews during the Holocaust?
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.818636

- Family of first Arab Righteous Among the Nations rejects Israeli recognition
https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/news/1.553413

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:00 pm

Not to pooh pooh anything, but what you posted all together seems entirely minimal and inconsequential (Yes...except to the FEW Jews saved...). It actually is almost a good argument in support of what it is supposed to be speaking against?

Of course, human behavior is variable and not monolithic.

What Arab (Country/Religious) Leader of consequence advocated resistance to Jewish persecution? How far down any list do you have to go?

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Rereading before posting. Take your first example: "The bey of Tunis and, more famously though less conclusively, the sultan of Morocco, both of whom provided vital moral support to their Jewish subjects, as well as practical help to a number of Jewish personalities and their families;" //// when I read "moral support" I have to force myself to keep reading as the notion is so.........(pick your own word?==>"weak", meaningless, ineffective, depending on what actually happened actually potentially morally offensive?===lets say "ambiguous?").... meaningless. Same with "a number of..." with my sense they probably helped people that were known to them or friends or had family connections and so forth....that very human connection that is repeated in "a number of" your examples.

With evidence like this.........I'd avoid the subject.
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Balsamo » Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:51 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Balsamo wrote:Hi Jeffk,

My feeling is that thread is maybe a little too ambitious.
It would take a dozen of sub-thread only to clarify the basis, really. And most probably, only polemics would come out of it.
Wouldn't be better to have a more positive stands, like "your propositions to get out of this mess?"

Just my 5 cents.


Well, Balsamo, it gives us something to talk about besides Trump.... :D

Really, a lot of this is for my own education. I realize I have only a broad overview.

Also, I thought this would be a good place to make suggestions regarding books, articles and websites.


What i mean is that know this history too well. There are just two conflicting reading possible, each side having theirs. Both have some good points and expressions of bad faith, which in the end makes the two readings of history irreconcilable, and that is about it. Of course, we can get through it, and in the end i guarantee a very informative (maybe) waste of time.

In a peace-building process, one needs to concentrate on the few elements that can make a consensus, and unfortunately discards the rest. What matters is today situation and the future, much more than what took place between 1917 and 1948.
Actually, this issue about the legitimacy of the foundation of Israel is the main obstacle that prevent the Palestinians to chase their own demons, and prevent them to envision a possible peace. On the other hand, Israel does not really need to fight to defend this legitimacy, as it exist stronger than ever today.
But both sides have to realize that they stand in a dead end, both have to forget about the past and focus on the future.

But then, i will keep reading some posts in this discussion.

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:57 pm

Balsamo: Yea Verily:

Irresolvable Conflicts: focus on the past and on differences

Resolvable Conflicts: focus on the future and on common interests.

Sad history can't be more specific..........................and what does studying the past actually imply?
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:42 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Not to pooh pooh anything, but what you posted all together seems entirely minimal and inconsequential (Yes...except to the FEW Jews saved...). It actually is almost a good argument in support of what it is supposed to be speaking against?

Of course, human behavior is variable and not monolithic.

What Arab (Country/Religious) Leader of consequence advocated resistance to Jewish persecution? How far down any list do you have to go?

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Rereading before posting. Take your first example: "The bey of Tunis and, more famously though less conclusively, the sultan of Morocco, both of whom provided vital moral support to their Jewish subjects, as well as practical help to a number of Jewish personalities and their families;" //// when I read "moral support" I have to force myself to keep reading as the notion is so.........(pick your own word?==>"weak", meaningless, ineffective, depending on what actually happened actually potentially morally offensive?===lets say "ambiguous?").... meaningless. Same with "a number of..." with my sense they probably helped people that were known to them or friends or had family connections and so forth....that very human connection that is repeated in "a number of" your examples.

With evidence like this.........I'd avoid the subject.


I'm not sure I understand you, but anyway, the story of the Sultan of Morocco saving the Moroccan Jewry is well-known:

- How the Sultan of Morocco Saved His Jewish Subjects During World War II
https://mosaicmagazine.com/picks/2017/0 ... ld-war-ii/

[...] Mohammed V ensured that there were never round-ups of Jews in Morocco; it remained a haven to the extent possible. During Vichy rule — which lasted a little more than two years — no Moroccan Jews were deported or killed; nor were they forced to wear the yellow star. When Allied troops liberated North Africa in November 1942, the Moroccan Jewish community was essentially intact.

The sultan’s actions offer a contrast with other leaders who rallied to the side of the Axis powers in hopes of driving the Jews from Palestine and the British from the Middle East. The grand mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin Husseini, for example, spent the war years in Berlin, courting Adolf Hitler and Heinrich Himmler, plotting the extermination of the Jews and recruiting Eastern European Muslims to fight for the Nazi cause. Mohammed V, on the other hand, was a strong supporter of the Allies and welcomed President Franklin D. Roosevelt, British Prime Minister Winston Churchill and French President Charles de Gaulle for four days in 1943 at the historic Casablanca conference. Throughout the sultan’s reign, he continued to protect his Jewish subjects. When the Arab world reacted violently to the declaration of the state of Israel in 1948 , the sultan reminded Moroccans that Jews had always been protected in their country and should not be harmed.

Mohammed V died suddenly in 1961, just four years after Morocco became an independent constitutional monarchy and he gained the title king. The outpouring of grief was immense. Some 75,000 Jews publicly mourned, the chief rabbi delivered a memorial address by radio, and Jews were prominent participants at the coronation of his son Hassan II and at the new king’s initial prayer services.

The Moroccan Jewish community has dwindled, but in commemorations to this day, its members declare their “eternal gratitude” to Mohammed V and recall his heroism. At a time when such selflessness is in short supply, we should do the same.

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la ... story.html

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:46 pm

Thanks Kleon..........yes........... Mohammed V appears to have met the level of active interference I was looking for.

So........why hasn't he been included in the list of the righteous? I assume (hope?) he was not on the list and then struck for being arab? Surely not THAT??????

So...one should go to the criteria for being on the list. Why not submit M-V's name for inclusion? Might be fun.
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:38 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Thanks Kleon..........yes........... Mohammed V appears to have met the level of active interference I was looking for.

So........why hasn't he been included in the list of the righteous? I assume (hope?) he was not on the list and then struck for being arab? Surely not THAT??????

So...one should go to the criteria for being on the list. Why not submit M-V's name for inclusion? Might be fun.


Yes, these are the things debated in the other articles I've posted before. Seems a complicated issue, and I try to figure it out myself. But it seems steps had been made. We'll see.

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Im_Not_Creative_Enough » Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:11 pm

Is there anything about the subject you guys may wanna hear from an Israeli Jew?
The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far.


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