The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:23 pm

Thanks Balsamo.

Here's a thorough analysis for last month's reconciliation agreement, between Fatah and Hamas, it could have a title like 'Resistance' theology has brought an impasse to Palestinians

https://www.timesofisrael.com/the-day-p ... e-gave-up/

At the beginning of this month, Hamas ceded its control over much of the civilian governance of the Gaza Strip to the Palestinian Authority (PA). In doing so, argues Haviv Rettig Gur, Hamas has relinquished the task of being a terrorist group that also governs territory so as to refocus on its primary mission: violence. Meanwhile, Mahmoud Abbas has reached a point where his strategy of curbing terror while trying to organize international pressure on Israel has not borne fruit. Gur writes:
Among Palestinians, the violent “resistance” is no mere tactic employed by a small handful of extremists. It is a fundamental pillar of their narrative of national liberation, a vehicle for reclaiming the dignity lost by their history of dispossession, a crucible that for many lends the sheen of redemptive theology to their long suffering. . . .
Abbas . . . cannot pursue the violent strategy he watched fail so spectacularly [under Yasir Arafat], nor can he acknowledge the flaw at the heart of his diplomatic strategy—the sad fact that Israelis who could not be frightened off by waves of suicide terrorism are not likely to be dislodged by waves of international tut-tutting. Worse, the trap is permanent. Israeli recalcitrance is shored up against foreign pressure by the very expectation of more waves of terrorism. The one Palestinian strategy fatally undermines the other. . . .
In the unity deal struck between Hamas and the Palestinian Authority last month, Abbas effectively swallowed into his PA . . . the very architects of [the Palestinians’] defeat, the party most responsible for the hardening of Israeli politics against Palestinian aspirations.
And, as might be expected, he has done so without any capacity to control what Hamas does or says in Palestine’s name. Hamas, after all, seems eager to surrender every instrument of sovereignty it possesses in Gaza—except the one that matters: its armed wing will remain intact, and under its control.
This was not Hamas’s “red line,” as some commentators suggested, implying that Hamas was being magnanimous with its other concessions. It was the original point and purpose of the entire exercise of reconciliation. Hamas could not give up its military wing because it was in the process of becoming its military wing, shorn of the extraneous trappings of civil politics. . . .



Read more at:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/the-day-p ... e-gave-up/

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:08 pm

This continued terrorist activity will continue to harden Israeli attitudes and keep sympathy high for Israel in the west, which is really what Israel needs.

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:16 pm

I thought Israel needed "peace" ? No????? So...."in context" Israel needs Western Sympathies to increase its settlement activities.....Yes?????? aka: No two State Solution. We'll all be Zionists soon.

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Balsamo » Fri Nov 17, 2017 1:17 am

Kleon_I XYZ Contagion wrote:Thanks Balsamo.

Here's a thorough analysis for last month's reconciliation agreement, between Fatah and Hamas, it could have a title like 'Resistance' theology has brought an impasse to Palestinians

https://www.timesofisrael.com/the-day-p ... e-gave-up/

At the beginning of this month, Hamas ceded its control over much of the civilian governance of the Gaza Strip to the Palestinian Authority (PA). In doing so, argues Haviv Rettig Gur, Hamas has relinquished the task of being a terrorist group that also governs territory so as to refocus on its primary mission: violence. Meanwhile, Mahmoud Abbas has reached a point where his strategy of curbing terror while trying to organize international pressure on Israel has not borne fruit. Gur writes:
Among Palestinians, the violent “resistance” is no mere tactic employed by a small handful of extremists. It is a fundamental pillar of their narrative of national liberation, a vehicle for reclaiming the dignity lost by their history of dispossession, a crucible that for many lends the sheen of redemptive theology to their long suffering. . . .
Abbas . . . cannot pursue the violent strategy he watched fail so spectacularly [under Yasir Arafat], nor can he acknowledge the flaw at the heart of his diplomatic strategy—the sad fact that Israelis who could not be frightened off by waves of suicide terrorism are not likely to be dislodged by waves of international tut-tutting. Worse, the trap is permanent. Israeli recalcitrance is shored up against foreign pressure by the very expectation of more waves of terrorism. The one Palestinian strategy fatally undermines the other. . . .
In the unity deal struck between Hamas and the Palestinian Authority last month, Abbas effectively swallowed into his PA . . . the very architects of [the Palestinians’] defeat, the party most responsible for the hardening of Israeli politics against Palestinian aspirations.
And, as might be expected, he has done so without any capacity to control what Hamas does or says in Palestine’s name. Hamas, after all, seems eager to surrender every instrument of sovereignty it possesses in Gaza—except the one that matters: its armed wing will remain intact, and under its control.
This was not Hamas’s “red line,” as some commentators suggested, implying that Hamas was being magnanimous with its other concessions. It was the original point and purpose of the entire exercise of reconciliation. Hamas could not give up its military wing because it was in the process of becoming its military wing, shorn of the extraneous trappings of civil politics. . . .



Read more at:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/the-day-p ... e-gave-up/


Good you posted that.
It shows that there cannot be no deal made with Palestinians in a bilateral approach, even less i would say.
The change of attitude of the Hamas is not the result of a decision by a would be council of Hamas leaders, it is a decision that has been forced upon them. Every single big Palestinian leader is connected to a network which is lodged within the Arab league. Therefore any changes within the league will have effect on those Palestinian leaders.
For example, the change of Regime in Egypt has huge repercussions on Gaza (the fall of the Muslim brotherhood), but mostly, the things that are going on in Saudi Arabia could prove fundamental in the future.

From the start my main critics toward the peace process was this will to keep it a "Israelo-Palestinian" issue, stung in a bilateral dialogue that failed for the last 30 years. It failed mainly because it does not officially recognize all the actors of this crisis.

If attitudes can be changes in the backrooms of the AP, and i may be naive, but Saudi Arabia might play a big role in the future, that is if the Arab league can be convinced that a new way is necessary, then i would bet my left hand that most of the Palestinian leaders would change their attitude overnight.
The Arab league is more or less (more less than more) the equivalent of what the USA are for Israel.

I won't enter into the details, but it is no secret of who finances all those groups.

Imagine that the Arab league decides to finally recognize the State of Israel (i do not guarantee it would recognize it as a Jewish State, but a "State for the Jews" could be achieved. which in fine would be the same), wouldn't that change a great deal of perspectives and possibilities? This could break a lot of the "ideological and religious appeal" to actually keep on "fighting" for something that is now accepted by all the neighbors.

But it is not by confining the "debate" between Israel and the PA only that it will be achieved. The Journalist in my perspective is wrong that the Hamas has kind of infiltrated the PA, it did not do it on its own will is what i think.

Of course, Israel would have to make some important concession ( essentially regarding the prisoners), even if a bit pushed in the back, but there could be great benefits for the State quite even short term. I believe that the "right to return" can be bought back, the same way as fair borders be negotiated and that a fully recognized Palestinian State, member of the international community, and therefore submitted to its rules and obligation, with all the responsibilities involved, would play its part.

But this would imply the participation of the Arab league major, the USA, the European Union (could provide financing and relation with North Africa), Russia that would need to take care of Syria (quite easy under the circumstances), actually one should profit from the current high tension between Sunnites and Shiites to enforce the changes. In a eventual confrontation with Iran, actually, Saudi Arabia needs US support just as much as Israel...as well as all those monarchies...

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Nov 25, 2017 6:05 pm


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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:37 pm


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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Balsamo » Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:17 pm

Jesus...still three years to go... :(

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:20 pm

Balsamo wrote:Jesus...still three years to go... :(


Feels like 20.

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:43 pm

This is important, an hour ago:
[UPDATE: It WAS important, and it was MORE than an hour ago :lol: JeffK posted it in the meanwhile, too! :|

- Trump will recognize Jerusalem as Israel's capital in Wednesday speech -- report | The Times of Israel
https://www.timesofisrael.com/trump-wil ... ch-report/

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:53 pm

Kleon_I XYZ Contagion wrote:This is important, an hour ago:
[UPDATE: It WAS important, and it was MORE than an hour ago :lol: JeffK posted it in the meanwhile, too! :|

- Trump will recognize Jerusalem as Israel's capital in Wednesday speech -- report | The Times of Israel
https://www.timesofisrael.com/trump-wil ... ch-report/



LOL, I know how you feel, Kleon, I’ve come here fired up about something, pleased that I found something....only to find someone posted it first!!!

Seriously, though, I can’t see anything positive come out of this, can you? I realize your perspective is different than mine but this just tosses petrol on a smoldering fire. It will immediately place all the Muslim/Arab governments on the defensive and make them have to condemn this. The same with the U.N. It’s a move that the US avoided for years for exactly those reasons.

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:25 pm

What difference does it make?

There is nothing but "uproar" in the area on about five different main issues? If its what Israel wants, what SPECIFIC REASON is there not to do it?.........you know, BESIDES the uproar.

If it was actually part of a plan.......like the Plan I announced as what Israel "could do" to move the issue along rather than agree to be stuck in a quagmire designed by their enemies, this would be a consistent move: to normalize and regularize normal Nation relationships. aka: resolve the dispute because HISTORY.........is moving on.
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:36 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Kleon_I XYZ Contagion wrote:This is important, an hour ago:
[UPDATE: It WAS important, and it was MORE than an hour ago :lol: JeffK posted it in the meanwhile, too! :|

- Trump will recognize Jerusalem as Israel's capital in Wednesday speech -- report | The Times of Israel
https://www.timesofisrael.com/trump-wil ... ch-report/



LOL, I know how you feel, Kleon, I’ve come here fired up about something, pleased that I found something....only to find someone posted it first!!!

Seriously, though, I can’t see anything positive come out of this, can you? I realize your perspective is different than mine but this just tosses petrol on a smoldering fire. It will immediately place all the Muslim/Arab governments on the defensive and make them have to condemn this. The same with the U.N. It’s a move that the US avoided for years for exactly those reasons.


I'll try to give some context on this issue, which de facto isn't an element for resolving the equation, but in this particular moment here's the factor 'Trump' that make it more complexed these days.

Meanwhile, we all have to know that there are so many levels and so many players, that in fact there is a new unknown strange other universe over there, once someone bypasses the language barrier. Israel speaks English more or less, so beyond it, we Westerners don't have a clue what's going on. See an example, it's almost a crazy world:
https://www.memri.org/reports/twitter-c ... resistance
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XYZ Contagion (‘Because the truth is contagious‘), an investigative/research political and historical website, deals also with the Srebrenica Genocide
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:00 am

Here’s something amusing:

http://writerbeat.com/articles/19680-No-Palestine-Only-Israel---70-Years-Later

Yours truly is Jeffrey Kelly. I realize my avatar is a little grimmer than what I use here.

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:35 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:Here’s something amusing:

http://writerbeat.com/articles/19680-No-Palestine-Only-Israel---70-Years-Later

Yours truly is Jeffrey Kelly. I realize my avatar is a little grimmer than what I use here.


That Tom Purcell Jew-hater guy over there seems a whack job, everything in the mixer, from Herzl and Rothchild to 9/11 truth.

Leaving aside this 1961 Benjamin Freedman for which it's the first time I hear, everything else he says is absolute lies, fakes, conspiracies and distortions. Not a single word has any truth in it. You did a great job reminding him of what he doesn't know (or want to know).

A quick, note, for this 5-stages of Palestine map that lies.
The graphic being used is a thoroughly debunked piece of propaganda that has already prompted MSNBC to apologize for showing it on air and has prompted McGraw-Hill to withdraw and destroy an entire textbook that included it because it is a set of indefensible lies

- The MSNBC case:
http://www.adweek.com/tvnewser/msnbcs-k ... ake/275035

- Israel: MSNBC's 'Palestinian Land Loss' Map Is Propaganda
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/42 ... ian-tuttle

- MSNBC Admits Anti-Israel Graphics Were ‘Wrong’ and broadcast was ‘factually wrong’
http://freebeacon.com/issues/msnbc-admi ... ael-wrong/

- Textbook Destroyed, McGraw-Hill Education, after being told maps in a political science textbook were anti-Israel, withdraws the volume and eliminates all copies, 08/03/2016
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/201 ... nti-israel

It's a meme made by dishonest people targeting well-intentioned people that don't know much of History, with a single aim: To deceive and to misinform and to make them more uninformed and uneducated than they are today.

http://www.thetower.org/article/the-men ... nian-loss/

I have some notes on this 'map that lies' and its variations. Usually the lying map has 4 stages, the one that Purcell provides has 5 stages, in a desperate attempt by these forgers to make it seem more credible and 'academic'.

But it's not. Here there are a lot of English links that debunk the map, scroll down a little and they are all there, in detail:

- Google Translation in English:
https://goo.gl/uhQwUQ

- Original in Greek with a lot of English links:
https://www.facebook.com/notes/protocol ... 908513856/

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:37 pm

Kleon_I XYZ Contagion wrote:
That Tom Purcell Jew-hater guy over there seems a whack job, everything in the mixer, from Herzl and Rothchild to 9/11 truth.

Leaving aside this 1961 Benjamin Freedman for which it's the first time I hear, everything else he says is absolute lies, fakes, conspiracies and distortions. Not a single word has any truth in it. You did a great job reminding him of what he doesn't know (or want to know).



It surprised me that that a tape of the audio actually existed. I only listened for a minute or two, I prefer to read transcripts because I can read quicker than listen.

I did some brief research on Freedman. Turns out he was a far-right whackaloon so, a completely unreliable source.

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:10 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Kleon_I XYZ Contagion wrote:
That Tom Purcell Jew-hater guy over there seems a whack job, everything in the mixer, from Herzl and Rothchild to 9/11 truth.

Leaving aside this 1961 Benjamin Freedman for which it's the first time I hear, everything else he says is absolute lies, fakes, conspiracies and distortions. Not a single word has any truth in it. You did a great job reminding him of what he doesn't know (or want to know).



It surprised me that that a tape of the audio actually existed. I only listened for a minute or two, I prefer to read transcripts because I can read quicker than listen.

I did some brief research on Freedman. Turns out he was a far-right whackaloon so, a completely unreliable source.


You're mean. We have to him credit for his predictions being accurate and in spot. He predicted in 1961 a WWIII and it did happened, right? Don't be so cruel. he was just another truth-seeker and reality narrative pusher.


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