Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:52 pm

"This beer isn’t a beer, but that is compensated for by the fact that this cigar isn’t a cigar either." - B Brecht

Which reminds me ... how many dadaists does it take to screw in a lightbulb? A: To get to the other side.
How many surrealists does it take to screw in a lightbulb? A: Two, one to hold the giraffe and the other to fill the bathtub with brightly colored machine tools.

I swear, Giuliani is that far out there ...
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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:02 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:... first posting here, but I will never quit. Apologies for my absence.

Little going on here. Not even an occasional Nutzi showing up. We did manage a discussion with blake of cremation times at Birkenau and blake ran off when the discussion didn't go his way. We even kicked the Trump thread out with the hope that the subforum could get back to the Holocaust but it's been slow going. It is as though poosh killed SSF ...
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Austrian PM curtsies to Putin (literally)

Postby ElectricMonk » Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:37 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/ ... ding-dance

Austria's Foreign Minister and member of the far-right FPÖ party invited Putin to her wedding.
The rest of Europe ins't happy.

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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Jeff_36 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:00 am

Some actual quotes from Trump's latest interview with Reuters.

“I think it’s very sad what Turkey’s doing. I think they’re making a terrible mistake. There’ll be no concessions. And, uh, Pastor Brunson will be a great patriot. OK?”


(on Xi)
“No. No time frame. I’m like them, I have a long horizon.”


(on accepting an interview with Mueller)
Well sure. He’s right because if I say something and a guy like Comey, who’s a proven liar - I mean he lied, he admitted he did. You take a look at what he did in Congress he said he gave - he leaked. He lied.


(On Kim Jong Un)
“Look, I have a good relationship with him. I like him. A lot of people will say: ‘How could you possibly like him?’ I get along with him very well; we have a good chemistry. I have a good chemistry with Putin, too.


As long as these statements continue to be made, the 25th amendment remains (IMO) a perfectly legitimate option that we should keep on the table.

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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:32 am

Nordiska motståndsrörelsen (the Nordic Resistance Movement), a neo-Nazi movement, has been granted a permit for a march on Saturday on Kungsholmen, an island neighborhood of Stockholm; a couple 1000s counter-demonstrators are expected. Although I will be in the area, I have obligations that will prevent me from witnessing this amazing event.

Over at Rodoh, one of the new Nazis there wrote about the neo-Nazi march in Spandau last week explaining that it occurred during a "heatwave" (it was actually about 31-32C that day) and noting that the media "reported glibly that the protest march was stopped without mentioning the time [a few hours in length]. I am fairly sure the marchers were glad to have had this done and dusted." That’s like: “Thank god the cops sent us home, it was a ‘heatwave.’” This time the Machtergreifung will have to wait for pleasant weather so these woeful doofuses don't become uncomfortable in the sunshine.
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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Jeff_36 » Wed Aug 22, 2018 2:18 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Nordiska motståndsrörelsen (the Nordic Resistance Movement), a neo-Nazi movement, has been granted a permit for a march on Saturday on Kungsholmen, an island neighborhood of Stockholm; a couple 1000s counter-demonstrators are expected. Although I will be in the area, I have obligations that will prevent me from witnessing this amazing event.

Over at Rodoh, one of the new Nazis there wrote about the neo-Nazi march in Spandau last week explaining that it occurred during a "heatwave" (it was actually about 31-32C that day) and noting that the media "reported glibly that the protest march was stopped without mentioning the time [a few hours in length]. I am fairly sure the marchers were glad to have had this done and dusted." That’s like: “Thank god the cops sent us home, it was a ‘heatwave.’” This time the Machtergreifung will have to wait for pleasant weather so these woeful doofuses don't become uncomfortable in the sunshine.


:roll: Odds of a police beatdown? Do they do that in Sweden? I really have no idea. One can hope.

EDIT: Sorry! Jeff_36 can't help himself! he doesn't like Nazis! :lol:


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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Aug 22, 2018 7:46 am

>> Odds of a police beatdown? Do they do that in Sweden? I really have no idea. One can hope.

Swedes generally respect the law; the march is legal and police will be there to enforce the law and to prevent violence. The permit is for Kungsholmen, not where the NMR originally requested, because on the same day there are already scheduled an animal rights march, a communist youth group march at Norra Bantorget in the city center for the right to strike, and several sports and other large events. "Now we have political activities which represent extreme views from both sides. We're preparing for that; that they might meet in counter-demonstrations," Carolina Paasikivi of Stockholm police told the media. The police are not likely to riot, as US police sometimes do, but to enforce the terms of the permit and to make sure laws are obeyed.

Other marches by the NMR have been marked by violence. Generally, the NMR either marches without a permit or acts outside the bounds of the permit (changing the march route, overstaying time limits). In these cases, the police make arrests, and the NMR has provoked violence. Fights with counter-protesters are the norm. The NMR had threatened to march without permits in the future after clashes in Göteberg last year where NMR marchers attacked journalists, injuries resulted from fights with counter-demonstrators (who outnumbered the NMR participants), and the NMR kept marching for hours after their permit had expired.
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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:52 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:As long as these statements continue to be made, the 25th amendment remains (IMO) a perfectly legitimate option that we should keep on the table.

But her emails ...
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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:27 pm

I had a long conversation with a campaigner for the Moderaterna - each party offering candidates for the Riksdag (Swedish parliament) has a little stuga painted in its party color in the square in the center of the Swedish city I'm staying in, the stages set up there for campaigning. I told the Moderaterna campaigner, who chatted with me (inexplicably given his duties) for half an hour, that I'd most likely support the Vänsterpartiet (Left party) if I lived here; he said that in US terms, as he understands it, the Moderaterna (a right-wing party in Sweden) would be considered pretty far left (it wouldn't - it would be more like Blue Dog Democrats). He was venomous with regard to the Sverigedemokraterna (Sweden Democrats, or SD), telling me that they are one-issue bigots. He said that all the major parties, save one, have agreed that the country took in too many refugees too fast (it was the previous Moderaterna-led government which architected the refugee/immigration policy that the Socialdemokraterna inherited), but the parties also still support immigration and refugee admissions and do not condone attacks on refugees and Trump-like hate-politics.

I asked him about his own party and its previous leader, who had supported an alliance with the SD. He said that she was removed as leader because of that and "we've shut that door for good." I asked about forming a government after the election, and he foresaw something happening between his side of the square (the right) and the other side (left-leaning parties). He asked me whether we in the US couldn't now get rid of Trump with the conviction of Manafort and Cohen's guilty pleas. He loathes Trump and we discussed his presidency for several minutes. He scoffed at the Feminist Initiative, too; he said that Swedes have it very good and may be a bit spoiled.

Only the SD are pro-Swexit; most Swedes are strongly supportive of Europe.

The Moderaterna campaigner expects the SD to overperform its polling by 3 points or so, in that many SD supporters are embarrassed to admit they will vote SD and thus reluctant to tell pollsters that they will do so.

Across the board, the party literature and posters are really awful. They look like brochures for a retirement community in a large town in central Iowa or southern Minnesota. Almost every party has campaign slogans based on strengthening security, fighting crime, and improving education.

I talked about this conversation with my Swedish friends who explained that the Modernaterna have left and right wings; they presumed that this fellow was to the left in the party. Further, my friends do not trust the Moderaterna, despite what the campaign worker told me, to refuse a coalition with the SD. When I suggested that the parties' propaganda needs to be zipped up, they laughed - and told me that the idea is not to stand out (lagom) but to fit in.

The most recent poll shows a mini-surge for the Miljöpartiet (Greens) probably due to the catastrophic summer weather - prolonged drought and heat, widespread forest fires, two episodes of pouring rains resulting in large-scale flooding. The Greens have begun to resonate after the summer's climate issues. Also the SD has fallen back quite a bit - 5 pts. Finally, the Socialdemokraterna have rebounded 2 pts in the latest polls. Forming a government - the current governing coalition formed a minority government in 2014 - looks to be very difficult should the polling hold relatively well.

Government Bloc (40% +3 pt)
Socialdemokraterna (Social Democrats) 25% (+2 pt)
Vänsterpartiet (Left) 9% (-1 pt)
Greens 6% (+2pt

Opposition Alliance (38% +2 pt)
Moderaterna 19% (+1 pt)
Liberals 5% (n/c)
Christian Democrats 4% (n/c)
Centerpartiet 10% (+1 pt)

Sverigedemokraterna (Sweden Democrats) 19% (-5 pt)
Feminist Initiative no longer included; were 1%

Undecided/? 3% (n/c)

Baseline: in the 2014 election the Social Democrats got 31% of the vote and the Sweden Democrats just under 13%.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Fri Aug 24, 2018 6:23 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:57 pm

One "lesson learned" from my brief visit to Berlin: it is possible for a society to take down racist and genocidal symbols and memorials and to substitute discussion and honesty about the past in their place. In the US, the "Confederate monuments" debate seems by comparison like a comedy sketch acted by drunks in a roadhouse at 3am.
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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Aug 24, 2018 9:04 pm

I chatted with members of the Left Party and the Greens today, again for quite a while. One of the Greens listens regularly to Pod Save America; the Left fellows follow Sanders in the US, Syriza in Greece, and Podemos in Spain. Both parties are alarmed by what is happening in the US, although the Left want to believe that the resistance is a powerful countertrend. I was told that most everyone despised Trump; for a short while one of the Christian Democrat leaders touted him but she’s since shut up.

Quick conclusions: (1) Both parties expect the Sweden Democrats (described as "fascists" and "neo-Nazis") to do well. (2) Both say that the process of forming a government will be difficult. (3) The Greens would be ok with a weak minority government led by the Social Democrats - if a budget cannot be passed, the government would live with the current budget (agreed by the Social Democrats and Greens and supported by the Left). (4) The Greens do indeed believe that the summer's weather is making people take a second look at them. (5) The Greens describe their base as educated, urban, affluent, young. (5) Both parties see a rightward shift in Sweden and are critical of the Social Democrats for adopting Sweden Democrat talking points on crime and immigration. (6) The Left Party also emphasizes environmental issues but describes its pitch in a single word: "equality"; they say that inequality of opportunity and financial well being has increased in recent years. (7) Neither party trusts the Moderaterna when it comes to their relations with the Sweden Democrats. (8) The Left clarified that they are not strictly speaking in the government coalition but vote with it on the budget and other key items to prevent its collapse.
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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:46 pm

Poor showing for Nordic Resistance Movement in Stockholm today

According to Knut Kainz Rognerud of SVT, "It's hard not to call it a failure." Aftonbladet says that 1200 police officers were mobilized, and they made 20 arrests. Aftonbladet also reports that the NMR had no one to fight, as the police kept the streets around the square - where 100 or so neo-Nazis, from across Scandinavia, gathered - empty. Along with the revolutionary communist youth "Strike Back" march, the animal rights march (500 participants), and the Nordic Front's march, there was also a protest by an unknown group, "with masked activists in blue rain ponchos," dashing across central Stockholm for unknown reasons. My Swedish sucks - but I think one of the protesters in the blue rain poncho action was injured by a police horse.
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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:55 pm

I happen to have spent the afternoon in Sigtuna and along Lake Mälaren there, in a land of immigrants (research paper here)
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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Aug 25, 2018 7:57 pm

"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Aug 26, 2018 12:44 am

A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Balmoral95 » Sun Aug 26, 2018 1:49 am



Hopefully the usual barf-making obits and commentary will be mercifully short.

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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Jeff_36 » Sun Aug 26, 2018 1:57 am

RIP - someone who would refused to let trend or convention stand in the way of principle, who was unafraid of party lines, and who will likely go down as the last GOP presidential candidate (or even the last from any party) to uphold civility and respect on the national stage. Someone who avoided race baiting, populism, and and moral relativism. Someone who dedicated his entire life to service of his country, and who spent his final days fighting against tyranny and treason.

They don't make'em like John McCain anymore. And that's a shame.

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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Balmoral95 » Sun Aug 26, 2018 2:08 am

Jeff_36 wrote:RIP - someone who would refused to let trend or convention stand in the way of principle, who was unafraid of party lines, and who will likely go down as the last GOP presidential candidate (or even the last from any party) to uphold civility and respect on the national stage. Someone who avoided race baiting, populism, and and moral relativism. Someone who dedicated his entire life to service of his country, and who spent his final days fighting against tyranny and treason.

They don't make'em like John McCain anymore. And that's a shame.


And was part of the Keating Five....

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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Jeff_36 » Sun Aug 26, 2018 3:09 am

Balmoral95 wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:RIP - someone who would refused to let trend or convention stand in the way of principle, who was unafraid of party lines, and who will likely go down as the last GOP presidential candidate (or even the last from any party) to uphold civility and respect on the national stage. Someone who avoided race baiting, populism, and and moral relativism. Someone who dedicated his entire life to service of his country, and who spent his final days fighting against tyranny and treason.

They don't make'em like John McCain anymore. And that's a shame.


And was part of the Keating Five....


Tis the nature of the game. You think FDR didn't cut a few under the table deals here and there dispensing all that New Deal magic? There was a Canadian cabinet minister from back in the day named Roch LeSalle who summed it up best "patronage is a reality in politics at every level and always has been".

Most people just don't care.
Last edited by Jeff_36 on Sun Aug 26, 2018 3:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby scrmbldggs » Sun Aug 26, 2018 3:11 am

Jeff_36 wrote:RIP - someone who would refused to let trend or convention stand in the way of principle, who was unafraid of party lines, and who will likely go down as the last GOP presidential candidate (or even the last from any party) to uphold civility and respect on the national stage. Someone who avoided race baiting, populism, and and moral relativism. Someone who dedicated his entire life to service of his country, and who spent his final days fighting against tyranny and treason.

They don't make'em like John McCain anymore. And that's a shame.

The names of the new models are "The Duncan D Hunter" and " The Don and Jr".
.

Lard, save me from your followers.

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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Balmoral95 » Sun Aug 26, 2018 3:36 am

Jeff_36 wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:RIP - someone who would refused to let trend or convention stand in the way of principle, who was unafraid of party lines, and who will likely go down as the last GOP presidential candidate (or even the last from any party) to uphold civility and respect on the national stage. Someone who avoided race baiting, populism, and and moral relativism. Someone who dedicated his entire life to service of his country, and who spent his final days fighting against tyranny and treason.

They don't make'em like John McCain anymore. And that's a shame.


And was part of the Keating Five....


Tis the nature of the game. You think FDR didn't cut a few under the table deals here and there dispensing all that New Deal magic? There was a Canadian cabinet minister from back in the day named Roch LeSalle who summed it up best "patronage is a reality in politics at every level and always has been".

Most people just don't care.


Doesn't mean I'm going to blubber over either's passing. Using this logic means I should be blubbering over any Nazi or Commie politicos as well. "They were cants and criminals, but they managed some good stuff too" ain't good enough

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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Jeff_36 » Sun Aug 26, 2018 4:15 am

Balmoral95 wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:RIP - someone who would refused to let trend or convention stand in the way of principle, who was unafraid of party lines, and who will likely go down as the last GOP presidential candidate (or even the last from any party) to uphold civility and respect on the national stage. Someone who avoided race baiting, populism, and and moral relativism. Someone who dedicated his entire life to service of his country, and who spent his final days fighting against tyranny and treason.

They don't make'em like John McCain anymore. And that's a shame.


And was part of the Keating Five....


Tis the nature of the game. You think FDR didn't cut a few under the table deals here and there dispensing all that New Deal magic? There was a Canadian cabinet minister from back in the day named Roch LeSalle who summed it up best "patronage is a reality in politics at every level and always has been".

Most people just don't care.


Doesn't mean I'm going to blubber over either's passing. Using this logic means I should be blubbering over any Nazi or Commie politicos as well. "They were cants and criminals, but they managed some good stuff too" ain't good enough


The difference is that Nazis and Communists dedicated their entire lives to destruction and murder, while McCain dedicated his to American democracy. A single mistake should not a great reputation undo. No one drags Kennedy's name through the med on account of the Bay of Pigs. The Keating affair was less consequential.

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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Balmoral95 » Sun Aug 26, 2018 4:40 am

Jeff_36 wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:RIP - someone who would refused to let trend or convention stand in the way of principle, who was unafraid of party lines, and who will likely go down as the last GOP presidential candidate (or even the last from any party) to uphold civility and respect on the national stage. Someone who avoided race baiting, populism, and and moral relativism. Someone who dedicated his entire life to service of his country, and who spent his final days fighting against tyranny and treason.

They don't make'em like John McCain anymore. And that's a shame.


And was part of the Keating Five....


Tis the nature of the game. You think FDR didn't cut a few under the table deals here and there dispensing all that New Deal magic? There was a Canadian cabinet minister from back in the day named Roch LeSalle who summed it up best "patronage is a reality in politics at every level and always has been".

Most people just don't care.


Doesn't mean I'm going to blubber over either's passing. Using this logic means I should be blubbering over any Nazi or Commie politicos as well. "They were cants and criminals, but they managed some good stuff too" ain't good enough


The difference is that Nazis and Communists dedicated their entire lives to destruction and murder, while McCain dedicated his to American democracy. A single mistake should not a great reputation undo. No one drags Kennedy's name through the med on account of the Bay of Pigs. The Keating affair was less consequential.


Sure, but if as your mentor quote says, it's all corrupt, always has been, always will be... What's the point?

Hopefully McCain's family will exercise some taste and decorum, insist on a private funeral , interment and have done with it.

And where do these senators think just by being elected it's a god-given right to spend 40 years in the Senate? (Okay, except Santorum, who will spend the next 60 years running for Prez)...

Stupid system guarantees already bought and paid for idiotic results.

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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:21 am


IMO McCain's death is not even tangential to European populism and nationalism. I do salute, just the same, his wise choice of a running mate in '08, which hearkened back to the GOP we miss so much, the party of Atwater, Gingrich, Goldwater, Laffer, and Nugent.
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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Jeff_36 » Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:26 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:

IMO McCain's death is not even tangential to European populism and nationalism. I do salute his wise choice of a running mate in '08 just the same.


I still struggle to decide who is the dimmer between her and Trump.

I mean who wins?

This
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Pdw9UWghmI

or This?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQYLli6bakc

And what is to blame? My father and I discussed this not long ago, he attributed this whole phenomenon to the underfunded US education system. It is a compelling argument, but didn't Trump go to private school? Are some people just naturally stupid? Why do they seem concentrated at the top?

So many questions
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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:29 am

Sorry for the edit while you were posting :(
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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby scrmbldggs » Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:31 am

.

Lard, save me from your followers.

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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:47 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:

IMO McCain's death is not even tangential to European populism and nationalism. I do salute, just the same, his wise choice of a running mate in '08, which hearkened back to the GOP we miss so much, the party of Atwater, Gingrich, Goldwater, Laffer, and Nugent.



We moved the Trump thread so I didn’t know where else to put it.
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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Aug 26, 2018 6:12 am

This is fine, of course, just wanted to discuss Sweden's election more with myself here :)
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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Aug 26, 2018 8:03 pm

Today's Swedish election update, based on conversations I had today with a representative of the Liberal Party and a representative of the Center Party. Their little campaign stugas sit next to that of the Sweden Democrats.

One of the neat things that Swedish schools do, I was told, is mandate strong civic education. As part of the program, 12-14-year-olds track national elections. In the city I am now visiting, these kids (I watched some of this happening) go to each party's campaign stuga and, form in hand, quiz the representatives on their positions on issues.

Both the representatives with whom I chatted today reported about an incident they'd witnessed earlier this month involving some such school kids. In both conversations, I remarked on the proximity of the campaign booths and noted wistfully that in the US we could not slot Trumpsters side by side with Dems. I learned the following: Young people seem particularly to dislike the Sweden Democrats and those approaching their representatives ask them challenging questions, beyond gathering information for their forms and sometimes not all that politely. In one case, a 14-year-old pressed and pressed on race and immigration; a Sweden Democrat working the booth grabbed the child and jammed him against a wall. At that point the child began flailing. The Sweden Democrats reported this flailing as an assault on their campaign worker. In some other instances Sweden Democrats had shoved children whose challenges they can't handle. The Liberal representative told me that the other parties had intervened a day or so later, quite seriously and quite firmly, and told the Sweden Democrats to cool it. There have been no incidents since.

According to the Liberal with whom I spoke, yes, there is a lot of chatter about a grand coalition - Social Democrats, Greens, Center Party, and Liberals - to assure a government and to stop the Sweden Democrats. But, no, such a coalition won't happen: it is really a pipe dream because the Liberals and Center could never agree on economic issues and the importance of individualism; it comes down to values.

I spoke much longer with the Center Party representative. She told me that the Center Party is a party of youth (I think of them as Macronists). They favor gay rights, looser immigration laws, action against climate change, and individual freedoms. Indeed, the party's campaigners were all quite young, in contrast to those of the Sweden Democrats who were on the old side and looked a bit antiquated in terms of dress, age, and bearing. The Center Party does not trust the Christian Democrats or the Moderaterna when it comes to the Sweden Democrats; the Center Party representative told me that both the Christian Democrats or the Moderaterna leaderships make many statements and keep assuring voters that they won't ally with the Sweden Democrats - but their word is not reliable. She told me that she is scared: The Sweden Democrats run on every fear and every bit of anger people have. She said that their rise has been hard to process because Sweden has not been an angry country and is moderate (lagom) in most respects. "They're Nazis, actual Nazis," she said, "no matter what they say now, in the campaign." She said that their group in the Riksdag is incompetent and lurches from one scandal to the next.

Like the Liberal representative, the Center Party representative doubted that her party would ever go into a grand coalition with the Social Democrats - based on values. The Social Democrats, they feel, don't value individual rights and their leader, Stefan Löfven, is seen as wanting to hold office for life, "not as bad as Erdogan, but . . ." OTOH the Center Party rep said that the two-three weeks after the election will be full of surprises. This representative had lived three years in New York City and knew US politics quite well. My politics - and I made this clear - differ to those of the Center Party, but we had a delightful and interesting conversation. She was most proud of the party's role yesterday in protesting the Nordic Resistance Movement in Stockholm - they'd hired a boat and blared loud "liberal" music, she called it, whilst a gay wedding was performed on board.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Sun Aug 26, 2018 8:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Aug 26, 2018 8:07 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:This is fine, of course, just wanted to discuss Sweden's election more with myself here :)


I’d contribute but.... :D
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Aug 26, 2018 8:20 pm

LOL

Campaign stugas (cottages) for individual parties in the main square (this shot shows, from left, the Left, the Social Democrats, the Greens, and the Feminist Initiative cottages - closed for the evening; a street bisects the square and on the opposite side, obscured by these cottages, sit the Moderaterna, the Christian Democrats, the Center, the Liberals, and the Sweden Democrats):

Image

Many signs like this one, needing no translation (except to note that the Sweden Democrats are called "SD"):

Image

Nordic front (Nordiska motståndsrörelse - NMR) not popular here either:

Image
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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Aug 26, 2018 8:24 pm

LOL, I like that. The Swede’s don’t mince words.
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

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The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Aug 26, 2018 8:27 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:LOL, I like that. The Swede’s don’t mince words.

No, they don't. From other spray painted graffiti I learned today that people who support the SD's "suger" - according to Norstedts Ordbok, this means that they "suck . . . vacuum-clean . . . give sb a blowjob, give sb head." LOL
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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby montgomery » Sun Aug 26, 2018 11:25 pm

Let's hope this isn't an indication of U.S. style street violence between the Socialist lets and the neo-Nazi extreme right in Sweden.
It's unbecoming for a nation that is claimed to be one of the most happy countries in the world. Top 3 or 4 I think?

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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Denying-History » Mon Aug 27, 2018 12:34 am

“Socialist lets”...

Doesn’t seem Sweden is on the list to me:

https://www.businessinsider.com/the-unhappiest-countries-in-the-world-2016-3
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
Joseph E. Davies

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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Jeff_36 » Mon Aug 27, 2018 2:07 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:I spoke much longer with the Center Party representative. She told me that the Center Party is a party of youth (I think of them as Macronists). They favor gay rights, looser immigration laws, action against climate change, and individual freedoms. Indeed, the party's campaigners were all quite young, in contrast to those of the Sweden Democrats who were on the old side and looked a bit antiquated in terms of dress, age, and bearing. The Center Party does not trust the Christian Democrats or the Moderaterna when it comes to the Sweden Democrats; the Center Party representative told me that both the Christian Democrats or the Moderaterna leaderships make many statements and keep assuring voters that they won't ally with the Sweden Democrats - but their word is not reliable. She told me that she is scared: The Sweden Democrats run on every fear and every bit of anger people have. She said that their rise has been hard to process because Sweden has not been an angry country and is moderate (lagom) in most respects. "They're Nazis, actual Nazis," she said, "no matter what they say now, in the campaign." She said that their group in the Riksdag is incompetent and lurches from one scandal to the next.


My own views align most closely with Moderaterna (I have been doing some reading), but the notion of any kind of coalition agreement with the SD is odious. The Center party seems therefore to be the best bet.

Whet do you think the odds are of an old-school freeze-out? Akin to the successful effort to exclude the Rex party from the national stage in Belgium in the 30's.

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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Aug 27, 2018 5:16 am

montgomery wrote:Let's hope this isn't an indication of U.S. style street violence between the Socialist lets and the neo-Nazi extreme right in Sweden.
It's unbecoming for a nation that is claimed to be one of the most happy countries in the world. Top 3 or 4 I think?

"Socialist lets" of the world unite!

This montgomery apparently didn't bother to read what I posted about this year's Swedish election campaign. The Nordiska motståndsrörelsen march I posted about was protested peacefully by a couple 100s of people and the very non-socialist Center Party; there was no violence, just a gaggle of frustrated neo-Nazis. The election thuggery in the city square I wrote about was unprovoked and came from the far-right Sweden Democrats.

That said, NMR marches and rallies have a history of violent encounters probably involving "Socialist lets" as well as the police. Which I wrote about a couple days ago.

2018 differs to 2010 when the "Socialist lets" tried to - and in some cases did (in Göteborg and elsewhere) - stop SD election marches/rallies: when police intervened because the "Socialist lets" hadn't gotten permits, the counter-demonstrators and police battled each other. The police came under criticism at the time for failing to provide a secure environment in which the far-right party could campaign.
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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Aug 27, 2018 6:04 am

Jeff_36 wrote:Whet do you think the odds are of an old-school freeze-out? Akin to the successful effort to exclude the Rex party from the national stage in Belgium in the 30's.

The impression I've gotten - take with grains of salt! - is that there is a distinct possibility of both the Moderaterna and the Christian Democrats entering a government, if the SDs are asked to form one. At least that is what the Left, Greens, Center, and Liberals all fear about them.

Discussion: I think it comes down to the horse trading before the Riksdag convenes and, of course, to the maths. The way a government will be formed was explained to me thus: The speaker of the Riksdag (elected by its members) nominates a Prime Minister, who is charged with selecting ministers and forming the government. So the choice of speaker depends on party strength in the body, as the speaker's election is the first order of business after the general election. Usually, I was told, the speaker asks the leader of the party with the largest bloc in the Riksdag to form a government - but there will be a couple weeks of negotiating and some knowledge of who can form a government/how.

The gap between the Moderaterna and the Social Democratic-led coalition on economics is quite large: privatization of certain public services (transportation, schools), under the previous Moderaterna-led government (two terms IIRC), has even voters inclined away from the Social Democrats very leery of the Moderaterna. It's not just their unreliability on the SDs. It is also services that no longer function well and growing inequality. I've heard the Moderaterna approach described, with a damning accent, as "the British method" or "the American way." OTOH my sense is that the opposition Alliance is also a bit fraught internally; where they agree on economics, they don't see eye to eye on immigration, the SDs, scare-mongering, law and order, etc.

The Sweden Democrats have been polling the past week or so at 19-20% and the Social Democrats, at 25%.

Should the SDs break through and lead the vote, they could (should?) be asked to form the government. If the Moderaterna and the Christian Democrats are faithful to their word, the SDs would not, however, be able to form a government.

The maths for the SDs: A coalition among the Sweden Democrats, Moderaterna, and the Christian Democrats - based on this morning's polls - would be a minority government with 42% or thereabouts. But there is another wrinkle: a party must receive 4% of the vote to have seats in the Riksdag, and the Christian Democrats are on the knife's edge.
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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby montgomery » Mon Aug 27, 2018 4:37 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
montgomery wrote:Let's hope this isn't an indication of U.S. style street violence between the Socialist lets and the neo-Nazi extreme right in Sweden.
It's unbecoming for a nation that is claimed to be one of the most happy countries in the world. Top 3 or 4 I think?

"Socialist lets" of the world unite!

This montgomery apparently didn't bother to read what I posted about this year's Swedish election campaign. The Nordiska motståndsrörelsen march I posted about was protested peacefully by a couple 100s of people and the very non-socialist Center Party; there was no violence, just a gaggle of frustrated neo-Nazis. The election thuggery in the city square I wrote about was unprovoked and came from the far-right Sweden Democrats.

That said, NMR marches and rallies have a history of violent encounters probably involving "Socialist lets" as well as the police. Which I wrote about a couple days ago.

2018 differs to 2010 when the "Socialist lets" tried to - and in some cases did (in Göteborg and elsewhere) - stop SD election marches/rallies: when police intervened because the "Socialist lets" hadn't gotten permits, the counter-demonstrators and police battled each other. The police came under criticism at the time for failing to provide a secure environment in which the far-right party could campaign.


First of all, please don't hang your hat on every typo. It's childish behavior on the internet these days that has been abandoned mostly because it's disruptive to keep on about it.

No, I didn't read what you had wrote and I don't read everything you write. If it's directed at me and it's halfway decent and polite, I probably will. As to neo-Nazi, far right, skinheads, they inevitably turn violent if given the opportunity. I don't see any reason you should defend them by giving them the benefit of the doubt.

And also fwiw, continually referring the the 'socialist lets' would be a good way of embarrassing a first grader who had made a grammar mistake that would not likely be a typo. Would that be a smart thing to do in order to demonstrate your superiority over a child? To a grown up, it's an indication of a flawed personality. Nuff said.


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