Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:04 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:The more I see Trump and Putin together the more convinced I am that the pee tape is real.


I am uncertian as to whether there is a piss tape in the most classic sense of the term but they definitly accumulated compromising information. Its just a standard FSB strategy for any high profile visitor.

Just to say, I think, based on the dossier, which has been more and more shown accurate, and the responses of Trump (lying about when he was in Moscow) and Putin (a non-denial and a lie that he didn't know Trump visited Moscow in 2013) that there is a "piss tape."
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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:05 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:I will never "leave" in the classic sense. Its just that working 9-5 has left me with a bit less time on my hands.

I must say, no longer working is sweet. 8-)

Jeff_36 wrote:I could take up an essay on this but I will be succinct: this is the hour of decision for the GOP. Here is where they will get to choose once and for all whether they are a legitimate center-right political party (like the UK or Canadian Tories, the Aussie liberals or the German CDU) or a north american clone of the Rassemblement Nationale or AfD. Whatever choice they make will be final and everything we have seen in the past two years points to the latter unfortunately.

I think you're right - and I believe they've decided, proven by words and deeds since about 2009-10, if not earlier. But we do actually live in interesting times. I will be watching the news programs this evening for a change!
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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:28 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
I could take up an essay on this but I will be succinct: this is the hour of decision for the GOP. Here is where they will get to choose once and for all whether they are a legitimate center-right political party (like the UK or Canadian Tories, the Aussie liberals or the German CDU) or a north american clone of the Rassemblement Nationale or AfD. Whatever choice they make will be final and everything we have seen in the past two years points to the latter unfortunately.


They will fail this test. They sold themselves out to Trump in exchange for tax cuts and judges. There’s been some grumbling about the Putin lovefest but I think they will sweep this under the rug and move on.

Now we may see this shift after midterms. I said this from the beginning, if the Republicans take a bath in November it may cause more Republicans to take an oppositional stance because they will have nothing to lose. They may realize that pissing Donald’s base off can’t hurt them more than they already are.

We’ll see.
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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Jeff_36 » Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:56 pm

It is a shame really. There have been historical examples of this same trend happening to center right parties in Europe and the West in general at a different time - the 1930's. In Belgium the Catholic Party formed a grand coalition with their socialist rivals to isolate and destroy the clerical fascist Rex. In Finland the same pattern happened when the Lapua movement became too big for it's shoes (and openly pro-Hitler at that). Other were not so fortunate - the German National Conservatives and the Spanish CEDA acted as hosts for parasitic infiltration of their countries institutions. Enablers if you will. One would think that the GOP by now would have taken the chance to leap off the tiger, but now it is clear that they will ride until the music has stopped.

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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:11 pm

a bit of a shout-out here for one of my wife's favorite reporters, Jonathan Lemire of the AP, who asked the blockbuster questions at today's joint press conference - 1) do you Vlad have kompromat on Donny? 2) and, Donny, whom do you believe - US intelligence or Vlad there?
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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:15 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:. . . now it is clear that they will ride until the music has stopped.

John Kasich on Chris Matthews tonight critiquing Trump's performance today and calling for bipartisan defense of the western alliance (mentioning the G7 and Nato) - and I quote - “Democrat leaders who want to take shots, why don’t you just shut up?” So for Kasich the problem is Democrats' partisanship? File under: "Yes, Normal Republican Elites Are a Threat to Democracy."
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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:58 am

I sort of liked John Kasich. Pity.

Sorry, John. If a Democratic President did this the Republicans would howl for his/her head.
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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:36 am

Not me, I've despised Kasich. I found this BS typical of his lecturing, falsely naive, Father-Knows-Best routine. He is very, very conservative. The far right in Europe must be pleased, but still the most recent polling I've seen from Sweden has about 10% approval of Trump. And, back to the topic of its being clear where the GOP stands, now this: https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/th ... ry-meeting
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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Balmoral95 » Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:39 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Not me, I've despised Kasich. I found this BS typical of his lecturing, falsely naive, Father-Knows-Best routine. He is very, very conservative. The far right in Europe must be pleased, but still the most recent polling I've seen from Sweden has about 10% approval of Trump. And, back to the topic of its being clear where the GOP stands, now this: https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/th ... ry-meeting


He's also an insufferable moralizer...

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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:42 am

I’d take him over Thud...
Hey, it’s a brand new Trump thread!!!!
LOL
I guess I sort of liked him because he showed opposition to Trump.
I dislike Republicans on principle but it is refreshing to see one with a little spine.
‘I have not left anybody in the dark about the fact that this time, millions of adult men would not die, and hundreds of thousands of women and children would not be burnt or bombed to death in the cities, without the actual culprit, albeit by more humane means, having to pay for his guilt.’
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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Balmoral95 » Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:58 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:I’d take him over Thud...
Hey, it’s a brand new Trump thread!!!!
LOL
I guess I sort of liked him because he showed opposition to Trump.
I dislike Republicans on principle but it is refreshing to see one with a little spine.


Okay, but that like saying Gauleiter Kube was better than Gauleiter Koch.... :mrgreen:

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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:58 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:I’d take him over Thud...
Hey, it’s a brand new Trump thread!!!!
LOL
I guess I sort of liked him because he showed opposition to Trump.
I dislike Republicans on principle but it is refreshing to see one with a little spine.

He friggin' ran against Trump! LOL and then left office: that's when today's Republicans get upset about Trump, when they're out of office. And, I'm with Balmoral, his moralizing is unbearable.

As compared to Trump, hell, I'd take Theresa May or E Macron or Stormy Daniels or Steve Carrell or Pierre Laval, ok scratch Laval, but a LOT of people . . .
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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Jul 17, 2018 2:00 am

Well, Stormy Daniels would definitely make an interesting president.
‘I have not left anybody in the dark about the fact that this time, millions of adult men would not die, and hundreds of thousands of women and children would not be burnt or bombed to death in the cities, without the actual culprit, albeit by more humane means, having to pay for his guilt.’
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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Jeff_36 » Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:15 am

Balmoral95 wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:I’d take him over Thud...
Hey, it’s a brand new Trump thread!!!!
LOL
I guess I sort of liked him because he showed opposition to Trump.
I dislike Republicans on principle but it is refreshing to see one with a little spine.


Okay, but that like saying Gauleiter Kube was better than Gauleiter Koch.... :mrgreen:


You made me laugh out loud in a subway lineup!

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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Jeff_36 » Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:18 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:I’d take him over Thud...
Hey, it’s a brand new Trump thread!!!!
LOL
I guess I sort of liked him because he showed opposition to Trump.
I dislike Republicans on principle but it is refreshing to see one with a little spine.


It will take someone like Flake, who has nothing to lose and who has shown the willingness to endorse democrats in the past, to challange Trump for the nomination in 2020. He may not be sucessful, but it would force the big {!#%@} to fight a war on two fronts.

It would take a patriot. The GOP was once the party of patriots.

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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:22 am

Jeff_36 wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:I’d take him over Thud...
Hey, it’s a brand new Trump thread!!!!
LOL
I guess I sort of liked him because he showed opposition to Trump.
I dislike Republicans on principle but it is refreshing to see one with a little spine.


It will take someone like Flake, who has nothing to lose and who has shown the willingness to endorse democrats in the past, to challange Trump for the nomination in 2020. He may not be sucessful, but it would force the big {!#%@} to fight a war on two fronts.

It would take a patriot. The GOP was once the party of patriots.


I think it will be Kasich if anyone.

I don’t see anyone toppling the orange manatee from his perch but if this starts a civil war inside the GOP so much for the better.
‘I have not left anybody in the dark about the fact that this time, millions of adult men would not die, and hundreds of thousands of women and children would not be burnt or bombed to death in the cities, without the actual culprit, albeit by more humane means, having to pay for his guilt.’
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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:47 am

Jeff_36 wrote:The GOP was once the party of patriots.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/russias-p ... p?ref=home
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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Jeff_36 » Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:06 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:The GOP was once the party of patriots.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/russias-p ... p?ref=home


This dosent really mean much. Trump had been making noises about jumping into the race as early as 2014 and had trademarked the MAGA slogan as far back as 2013 IIRC. Joshua Green's book makes a serious case that Trump made up his mind in 2013. On a side note - this is eerily reminiscent of The Great Chronology Debate of 2015 eh?

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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:34 pm

I think that if your read the materials you will see that the Russian intervention targeted the GOP first - the fake super patriot party, you know, the one that used its purported foreign policy machismo and crude anti-Communism as a domestic cudgel - as well as Trump, once he was in. WaPo provides this time line:
2011: Maria Butina forms Right to Bear Arms in Russia. The aim of the organization mirrors that of the NRA: Broadening Russians’ access to firearms.

April 15, 2012: Alexander Torshin, a former Russian senator and lifetime member of the NRA, tweets about Butina’s group, comparing it to the NRA.

His longstanding relationship with Butina and biographical descriptions included in the complaint make it clear that the “RUSSIAN OFFICIAL” identified in the document is Torshin.

2013: Per the complaint, Butina allegedly makes contact with an American political operative (“U.S. Person 1” in the complaint), who agrees to introduce her to influential figures in American politics. That includes a “gun rights organization,” identified contextually within the complaint as the NRA.

November 2013: John Bolton, a former U.S. ambassador to the United Nations and, since April 2018, White House national security adviser, records a video promoting an expansion of gun rights in Russia that’s later used by Right to Bear Arms for promotion.

April 2014: Butina and Torshin attend the national NRA convention.

March 24, 2015: Butina allegedly emails Person 1 to propose a project titled “Diplomacy.” (The email subject line apparently makes reference to a former KGB propagandist.) She writes that the Republican Party (identified only as POLITICAL PARTY 1 in the complaint) will likely gain power in 2016 but is “traditionally associated with negative and aggressive foreign policy, particularly with regards to Russia.” The time was right, she wrote, to build a relationship with the party, using the “[c]entral place and influence” in the Republican Party of the NRA.

She noted her relationship with the NRA and past interactions with Republican officials in the email, anticipating a $125,000 budget to be spent on major political conferences. Person 1 responded with suggestions about people with whom she should meet and some strategic recommendations.

April 24, 2015: Butina attends the NRA convention in Nashville. There she and Torshin meet Gov. Scott Walker (R-Wis.), who reportedly greets her in Russian.

June 12, 2015: Writing for National Interest, Butina argues that a Republican president might be the only way to improve relations with Russia. After the article was published, she sent it to Torshin, who approved. . . .

And CNN reports that
Butina and Torshin spent three years coaxing the Republican Party to be Russia's ally. They were preparing for when Obama and Putin would no longer be presidents.

"American society is broken in relation to Russia," she said in a Twitter direct message to Torshin in 2016. "This is now the dividing line of opinions, the crucial one in the election race. [The Republican Party] are for us, [the Democratic Party] against -- 50/50. Our move here is very important."

The American person she was in touch with in 2015 told Butina she could help guide Russian-American relations after Obama and Putin left their offices.

The person applauded her meeting Americans and attending conferences in America.

We have probably gotten into Trump thread territory here. I've been searching to find (and read) some European nationalist-populist reactions to the summit and indictments today but due to having had eye surgery this morning the going is slow LOL
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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:11 pm

Some thoughts on Sweden: The country has not been suffering through tumultuous years. Lagom, according to my family and friends who live in Sweden, still characterizes the general mood. The economy, fueled by startups and advanced technology, is humming along. Joblessness is at record lows, the over-ambitious refugee admission program has been curtailed, new housing is being constructed, police forces are being supported and increased. Despite the headlines in Breitbart and from anti-Muslim hate groups, crime, whilst having risen, is not exploding nor is it paralyzing the nation. Compared to the US, the country remains generally safe.

Moderaterna policies - they headed the government that preceded the current government - of privatization, lowering wages, and tax cuts have indeed led to rising income and wealth disparities. And probably to the rise in crime, which coincides with a growth in gang activity, according to police; Sweden now experiences over 100 homicides per year (Sweden's population is about the same as Chicagoland's, where the comparable number is about 700). The Social Democrats have themselves adopted some of the rhetoric and policies of de-governmentalization - in public transport, education, wages. Yet these policies, deleterious as they are IMO, whilst leading to very real problems, have not destroyed the social fabric nor created deep social instability.

Swexit, anyone? But Sweden is in a bit of a crisis: it is the rise of the far-right Sweden Democrats that is creating a political unsettledness and instability. The Social Democrats have been the country's largest political party since 1917. Yes, since the era of the Great War. In September the largest party well could be the Sweden Democrats who've run a classic demagogic, fear-based, populist-nationalist campaign, seizing on immigration, refugees, and "others" in Sweden - and linking migration and crime. The SD's appeal has especially resonated with the blue collar voters who traditionally, over about a century, have formed the electoral backbone of the Social Democrats.

Is Trumpism possible in a country that prizes consensus, avoidance of conflict, hyperbole and extremes? And a welfare state? It seems so.

The Sweden Democrats promise to bring down any government that opposes its policies - which are much like those of the other European far-right parties and include Swexit.
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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby landrew » Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:23 pm

We are inextricable linked to social Darwinism; that's the sad truth. As organisms, we can not sustainably maintain a non-competitive environment for a long time. There must be some natural selection from time to time for fitness to be maintained.
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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:31 pm

"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:19 pm

I found it telling that German's Foreign Minister Heiko Mass put Germany's disenchantment with President Trump's particular version of international "pigeon chess" this way, “We can no longer completely rely on the White House. To maintain our partnership with the USA we must readjust it.” This formulation seems to distinguish between Trump (the White House) from whom Germany is becoming estranged and some mythical country called the USA with which Germany has a partnership.

The view is utterly mistaken. Trump and the Republicans, it must be understood by European center figures, really do govern and speak for the US. Going back to some normal "USA" from which Trump is a fleeting aberration is improbable. Talking up the grand alliance as though we were still in the 1950s is the absence of a response to the present crisis.

A writer called Cas Mudde, focusing on Trump's strength in the US, criticizedthis tendency of Europe's current leadership class - to distinguish (false) Trump from (real) America - in The Gruaniad:
Like the European leaders at the Nato summit a few days before, they insist on a strong separation between the country, as well as its people, and its leader. Still utterly confused by the new reality, they continue to hope that the US will come to its senses once the American people see how incompetent and unpopular Trump is. But I have bad news for them: Trump’s “visit from hell” will not hurt him at home.

The fact that almost every single European leader, from the British prime minister, , to the French president, , disagreed with Trump on some fundamental issue will help rather than hurt him with his base. To the Trump supporter, it proves that he is different from “them”, ie the globalist elite. It shows them that Trump puts “America First!” and does not care what other countries think – another thing he has in common with his base.

Many people will have seen the Nato summit photograph in which all the other leaders look to the left and only Trump looks to the right. When I that image, both opponents and supporters interpreted the picture as the perfect illustration of the schism between Trump and European leaders – although some claimed, as is to be expected these days, that it was #FakeNews. But where most Trump opponents saw a US president out of touch with the rest of the world, making fun of him for not knowing right from left (or referring to the famous ), his supporters saw a king, who chooses his own way, standing apart from the lemmings who follow each other into an apocalypse.

European leaders need to get over their delusory nostalgia and toughen up: the EU needs to get its economic house in order - from income disparities to people's financial struggles, protect social welfare promises now fraying or under attack, say better what Europe is and will be - including east and south, deal with the challenge from the far right, and find a common way to deal with the migrant situation. Not hope for the return of a heroic American that never was.

Cas Mudde (with whose work I am not familiar though I feel certain I've seen his name) concludes his Grauniad piece like this:
The last week once again showed that Europe understands neither Trump nor the United States. Europeans see Trump as an aberration, whose policies are not just out of touch with their own priorities and values, but also with those of the majority of Americans. They feel strengthened by US foreign policy elites, who for decades have made policies without much public input or scrutiny. A good example is Robert Kagan, who in a series of recent in the Washington Post has decried the decline of the “liberal world order”. As liberals enthusiastically retweet his columns, they should remember that Kagan was one of the prominent neoconservatives behind the foreign policy of George W Bush’s administration, which for eight years ignored or undermined that same liberal world order in support of another American First ideology.

Trump is certainly a different political leader and US president. His style is unique, but he mainly says out loud, and more vulgarly, what many Americans, including political elites, think in private. America First has always been the motto of US foreign policy, even if previous presidents believed this was better achieved through a (US-dominated) liberal world order. The sooner Europeans come to turns with that, and start planning for a future without US dominance, the better.
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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Balsamo » Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:42 pm

Statmec,

thanks for the great contributions you bring to this thread.

Just on this one:

The view is utterly mistaken. Trump and the Republicans, it must be understood by European center figures, really do govern and speak for the US. Going back to some normal "USA" from which Trump is a fleeting aberration is improbable. Talking up the grand alliance as though we were still in the 1950s is the absence of a response to the present crisis.


I think it means that here in Europe (i should have said "there" actually) it is known that the president is only being elected for 4 years, while economical links are still going fine. Hence the distinction between the white house, which has fallen to a level of ridicule in Europe that would be hard to believe by Americans, and the USA, that is what has been built between the two countries for the last 60 years.
Not any mystical USA, but all the US corporations making billions trading with the EU (which is still the biggest commercial zone in the world), the US banks who makes business around the world, etc. They will not let their billions go just because an irresponsible that cannot prevent his mouth or prevent his fingers from saying or tweeting a stupidity, has been elected...for 4 years.

Yes Trump and the Republicans do govern, but there will be a first challenge in November, then in the end of the day, it is still to be seen that the GOP will support Donny for a new 4 years.
What the Donny guy is doing will backfire so hard in his face, that is in USA's face, that some reflections will take place when the time comes.

Actually the only one who think we are still in the 50's is his Orangeness himself.

There will be reactions, believe me, if Donny goes too far. There are already contact with China and even Russia, Putin having scored big with his world cup (no kidding). As I wrote in a previous post, Latin America (Mexico has just elected a leftist president) is in full diplomatic relation with China right now.
Trump is basically damaging every grips the USA had on almost every continents. Africa is already kind of lost, Latin America is following fast, if Trump now messes up with the EU as well, after having declared a commercial war with China...
I guess Putin has never felt so happy for years.

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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:54 pm

Balsamo wrote:There will be reactions, believe me, if Donny goes too far. There are already contact with China

Thanks for pointing this out, although I know it is very complex, and I just saw news articles (two such links below) on the EU-Japan trade agreement, which would seem to constitute the sort of action Mudde advocates.

Balsamo wrote:Trump is basically damaging every grips the USA had on almost every continents. Africa is already kind of lost, Latin America is following fast, if Trump now messes up with the EU as well, after having declared a commercial war with China...
I guess Putin has never felt so happy for years.

That is what is so odd to me. Under the rubric of American First and a pitch for American power, Trump is damaging US interests in many areas and ways.

If I were an advocate of strong American global power, and saw it as the world's natural condition (like so many American leaders of both parties), I would be very concerned: the alliances and international organizations led by and dominated by the US (I won't list them out), which Trump sees as complex, nefarious tricks played on the US and means to take advantage of America, have served American power - in all its dimensions - well. To mention only the tip of the iceberg, W's war in Iraq. But more importantly American economic success on a global scale. Trump should read Gramsci and pay close attention to the discussion of hegemony LOL.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/17/busi ... china.html
https://www.dw.com/en/eu-japan-free-tra ... a-44695274
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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Balsamo » Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:33 pm

Statmec:
That is what is so odd to me.


You are far from being the only one, my friend. It is odd to everyone i speak with.
And despite what Cas Muddle (this time i copy paste) says, the 56 millions who voted for Trump are only part of his so called "power". The GOP and its supporters were of course pleased with the very generous tax break - i doubt it had effect on many of the voters - but what will he have to offer in 2 years? Another tax break? I do not think US corporations supporting this suicidal path for another 4 years.

Others commentators are also fooling themselves when stating that the USA are still the number one market. It is today because of the current situation - the very same situation that Trump is destroying right now - another 6 years of this {!#%@}, and the USA will be the shadow of what it still is.
I know you understand that...i am referring to some quotes in articles you posted.

This is why i do not think he will be reelected.
Not, even if it is selfish, that i would mind that much. It could actually have some beneficial side effect for the rest of the world. As a matter of fact, the EU has relied on the USA for too long. I do think it is one factor explaining why it is so unpopular today.
Among good things that could come out from a EU emancipation: maybe a coherent Defense Policy, with concrete alliances among the 28, new strategic consideration inspired by purely European interests, some change in a form of Ultra Liberalism that has been conceived and sold to the world from Washington, better deals protecting the Climate, just to enumerate a few...Who knows?

NATO is a good thing though, and probably the most appealing thing among what the USA has to offer. I have understood that while working, 20 years ago, on the central and European countries. Once liberated, they all dreamed of joining NATO, not the EU...It is the EU that sold them the "package"...And everyone knows that behind NATO is the USA. To see Trump destroying this "Ace" can only puzzle every observers.

As a comic side note, i came upon an article stating that those famous Red Caps stating "MAGA" will double in price because of the current commercial disputes. What an irony!

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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Balmoral95 » Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:58 pm

Balsamo:

I think it means that here in Europe (i should have said "there" actually) it is known that the president is only being elected for 4 years, while economical links are still going fine. Hence the distinction between the white house, which has fallen to a level of ridicule in Europe that would be hard to believe by Americans, and the USA, that is what has been built between the two countries for the last 60 years.
Not any mystical USA, but all the US corporations making billions trading with the EU (which is still the biggest commercial zone in the world), the US banks who makes business around the world, etc. They will not let their billions go just because an irresponsible that cannot prevent his mouth or prevent his fingers from saying or tweeting a stupidity, has been elected...for 4 years.


Seems this was vaguely expressed today by McConnel but was lost in his mealy-mouthed rendering.

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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:29 pm

List of foes in order of risk (found in Trump's coat pocket):
1. Robert Mueller
2. Montenegro/NATO
3. Stormy Daniels
4. EU
5. Mexico (rapists)
6. China economically
7. Russia in certain respects but not really
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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:57 pm

I have a friend from Montenegro (“They,” so sayeth Bloatus, “have very aggressive people. They may get aggressive, and congratulations, you’re in World War III, now I understand that — but that’s the way it was set up”) who once told me one of those bad "ethnic" jokes about Montenegro, only my friend told me the joke at his own expense and with a kind of prideful satisfaction at a life well lived - at the people's deserved reputation, in his view, for hedonistic pleasure and persistent indolence: Why does a Montenegrin keep a chair next to the bed? Because when he gets up each morning, he needs a place to sit.

(OTOH what Trump did this past week - destabilizing NATO and western alliances, seemingly aligning himself and the US with certain Russian foreign policy goals, even colluding with Putin on election meddling and cyber-attacks - is not treason, not matter how much some may like saying so on TV. And, if the charges are meant hyperbolically, they are short-sighted: people on the left-er end of the spectrum should have longer memories and know better.)
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby scrmbldggs » Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:07 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:List of foes in order of risk (found in Trump's coat pocket):
1. Robert Mueller
1.1 CNN
2. Montenegro/NATO
3. Stormy Daniels
4. EU
5. Mexico (rapists)
6. China economically
7. Russia in certain respects but not really


ftfy :-P
.

Lard, save me from your followers.

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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:20 pm

thank you, I think that you know what I meant to write . . . in a key sentence in my post, I said ‘Montenegro/NATO’ instead of ‘CNN.’ The entry should have been, ‘CNN.’ You can put that in. I think that probably clarifies it.

The other kind of cheeky points - ok deeply offensive, obnoxious, calculated to piss people off maximally - about Trump's Montenegro comments that strike me are 1) around the time Montenegro joined NATO, it was not aggressive Montenegrins but Russian pressure against the tiny country that became evident and 2) only once has Article 5 been used, AFAIK, and it was when the European freeloaders (which the US is carrying on its back and defending time and again) rallied to support, er, the US after 9/11.
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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:26 pm

btw nice to see you scrmbldggs :)
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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:37 pm

Hhhhhmmmm, are we sure about the Montenegrins? I don’t know, I just got a tweet from @realDonaldTrump saying this is an actual picture of the Montenegrin hordes getting ready to spill out of their borders. It’s terrifying so I’m going to put in a spoiler:

Spoiler:
Image
‘I have not left anybody in the dark about the fact that this time, millions of adult men would not die, and hundreds of thousands of women and children would not be burnt or bombed to death in the cities, without the actual culprit, albeit by more humane means, having to pay for his guilt.’
Adolf Hitler
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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:40 am

I've read a few comments suggesting this thought today:
Ranko Krivokapić, the former President of Montenegro and current leader of the opposition, told the BBC that Trump is "the strangest President in the history of the United States. ... Foreign policy is not his big thing." While Trump frequently denigrates NATO, and famously shoved aside the Montenegrin Prime Minister in a disgraceful display of faux-alpha male strength, the focus on Montenegro so soon after his meeting with Putin makes one wonder what the two world leaders said about the country.

From Jonathan Cristol, "What Trump gets terribly wrong on Montenegro".

Another version of this fear is expressed here, in a BBC article attempting to present responses from Montenegro:
Ranko Krivokapic says he is concerned that his country may have been a bargaining chip at the Trump-Putin summit.

"I hope Montenegro was not on the table in Helsinki; I hope Mr Trump was just giving a reaction to the Fox question, nothing deeper.

"It is very important for us that we are part of Nato. The issue is practically closed and accepted in Montenegro; we are accepted as part of the West."
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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Balsamo » Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:29 am

Trump does not care about Nato...and i would be surprised if he could locate Montenegro on the map.

Russia does care, as it remembers that Nato was created against the country. And it does care about Montenegro as it considers as part of its natural sphere of influence, that is its historic influence over Slavic people, like Serbia, and the main Religion is Orthodox Christianism. So a Slavic people joining NATO is taken as a breach of tradition. Not all the Montenegrins are Slavic though, but a substantial part is. Montenegro was also the last ally of Serbia when both pretended to still represent the Yugoslavian Federation.

Anyone knows how it came on the menu of discussion between the two?

Regarding Trump comments...what is it to say...the guy is full of surprises. He also shows that there are many ways to "make history" or even to "become history". For sure, his presidency will never be forgotten.

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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:32 am

I sense Molotov-Ribbentrop Part Deux.
‘I have not left anybody in the dark about the fact that this time, millions of adult men would not die, and hundreds of thousands of women and children would not be burnt or bombed to death in the cities, without the actual culprit, albeit by more humane means, having to pay for his guilt.’
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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:45 am

Balsamo wrote:Anyone knows how it came on the menu of discussion between the two?

Long answer: Well, that's what my last post was about - people speculating on this. Not sure if the two of them discussed Montenegro but unable to think of why else it would come up (TPM had a long piece on this, behind the paywall, where their staff got into it with Tucker Carlson over this very question.) Trump complains that the US media are covering only his bizarre press conference with Mr Putin and not the "summit"; of course, even his own staff, let alone the media, were not invited to the one on one. Tonight Russian officials are starting to make statements about what the 2 leaders agreed, which has White House officials and department heads on their back heels, as they haven't a clue - and have already stated that there were no agreements on areas where the Russians are signaling agreements (Syria).
Short answer: Trump and Putin would know.
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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Balmoral95 » Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:57 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Balsamo wrote:Anyone knows how it came on the menu of discussion between the two?

Long answer: Well, that's what my last post was about - people speculating on this. Not sure if the two of them discussed Montenegro but unable to think of why else it would come up (TPM had a long piece on this, behind the paywall, where their staff got into it with Tucker Carlson over this very question.) Trump complains that the US media are covering only his bizarre press conference with Mr Putin and not the "summit"; of course, even his own staff, let alone the media, were not invited to the one on one. Tonight Russian officials are starting to make statements about what the 2 leaders agreed, which has White House officials and department heads on their back heels, as they haven't a clue - and have already stated that there were no agreements on areas where the Russians are signaling agreements (Syria).
Short answer: Trump and Putin would know.


CNN had a video piece of Pence welcoming Montenegro to joining Nato from sometime last year, so this has been on the table for a while....

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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:14 am

>> Montenegro was also the last ally of Serbia when both pretended to still represent the Yugoslavian Federation.

I think that the governing party (Democratic Party of Socialists) evolved from the party that supported Milosevic in the '90s. They split - and the party today comes from the group that came to favor Montenegro being independent. They have a reputation (2016 crisis and alleged coup attempt) of being corrupt as hell. Whatever can be said about the alleged coup, Russia considers Montenegro entering NATO as threatening and IIRC Putin has even argued that Russia was promised no "eastern" countries would be brought into the alliance, so the 2017 entry was doubly scorned in Russia.

Trump and Carlson are unlikely, as you say, to give a rat's ass about any of this, which is why many commentators think that the notions they discussed came from afar.
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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jul 19, 2018 3:17 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:. . . Tonight Russian officials are starting to make statements about what the 2 leaders agreed, which has White House officials and department heads on their back heels, as they haven't a clue - and have already stated that there were no agreements on areas where the Russians are signaling agreements (Syria). . . .

Have since seen The Hill's gloss (http://thehill.com/business-a-lobbying/ ... with-putin) and the original WaPo story (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/na ... f0c2333e8e) on this debacle.
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