Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Holocaust denial and related subjects.
User avatar
Jeff_36
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4509
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:45 pm
Location: At the hundredth meridian, where the great plains begin

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Jeff_36 » Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:22 am

Balsamo wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Austrian snap election


According to the result i received,
The OVP (Conservative) got 30.2% as forecasted, but the FPO (Far right) got their best score since 1999 and is second with 26.8%, the SPO (left) fell to 26.3%.

EDIT: Last projection from Austrian TV:
OVP : 31.6% (+7.7)
SPO: 26.8% (+0)
FPO: 26% (+5.5)
Grune (green Party (the president) : 3.9% (-8.6)

Results can change when Vienna unfold


Right now everyone is saying FPO/OVP coalition, with the little man as Chancellor. This is bad news - the FPO was formed by former Nazi IIRC and still has issues with the ghosts of its past. Austria is a really strange place, maybe the strangest in Europe.

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 16832
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Oct 22, 2017 11:57 am

Nazism conspired to create a sense of festival time. . . . Tragically for humanity, the party generating it was the type not associated with the coloured costumes of the Brazilian Carnival, but with the brown-shirted thuggery of the NSDAP. The contrast between the dance and the march, between the samba and the strains of the Horst Wessel Lied, points to the gulf separating a life-asserting community from a community which exists only by creating a demonized other. - RG '97

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 6K Posts
Posts: 6196
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Oct 22, 2017 3:21 pm

My uncle serves as a military attaché in Czechoslovakia for the Air Force, I’m going to be on the lookout to see what he thinks of this.

In a way radical Islam is winning this particular battle, with more and more isolationist/nationalist/right-wing parties asserting their growing strength there will be less and less places for migrants to flee to. Their choice will be to cave or die. Same with Christian or Jewish communities in the Middle East, undoubtedly they will be welcome where Muslims are not but it will be harder for them to get out.

Another big concern, these parties are not fond of the EU. If the EU breaks up, will NATO be far behind? If that happens, we will revert back to every nation for themselves. We all know how well that worked out the last time. The main beneficiary will be Putin and his successors.

As an aside, the maternal side of my family hails from Czechoslovakia. My great grandmother arrived in the United States with her family at the turn of the last century. So, yes, I’m half Slav, making me half Untermensch but on the bright side I’m also half Irish, making me neutral on my paternal side....... :lol:

Sorry, needed to make a correction....Irish are not Aryans, needed to check my ideological base. We were just neutral during the war.

:D

User avatar
Balsamo
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1528
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:29 pm

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Balsamo » Sun Oct 22, 2017 7:10 pm

Jeffk,

Just to say that the ANO that won the election in Czech Republic is not against the EU, but against the Euro, and indeed, rejects the quota of migrants imposed by the EU.
The real nationalist party (SPD, not to be confused with the German one) scored a big 10%, that is the bad news.
At this stage, it is still not sure of the ANO will be able to form a coalition, so wait and see.
Like all the central and eastern European States, being member of NATO is what mattered in the first place, so Nato is not at risk at all.

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 6K Posts
Posts: 6196
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Oct 22, 2017 8:27 pm

Balsamo wrote:Jeffk,

Just to say that the ANO that won the election in Czech Republic is not against the EU, but against the Euro, and indeed, rejects the quota of migrants imposed by the EU.
The real nationalist party (SPD, not to be confused with the German one) scored a big 10%, that is the bad news.
At this stage, it is still not sure of the ANO will be able to form a coalition, so wait and see.
Like all the central and eastern European States, being member of NATO is what mattered in the first place, so Nato is not at risk at all.



Thanks, Balsamo.

I feel my concerns are legitimate, primarily with the giant orange anus currently haunting the White House.

User avatar
Jeff_36
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4509
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:45 pm
Location: At the hundredth meridian, where the great plains begin

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Jeff_36 » Sun Oct 22, 2017 11:28 pm

Balsamo wrote:Jeffk,
Like all the central and eastern European States, being member of NATO is what mattered in the first place, so Nato is not at risk at all.


IDK about that - most of the populist nationalist parties that I have examined (and I did a comprehensive examination of the FN, Jobbik, and the Sweden Democrats for a university paper in February of 2016 - I got an A-, not bragging but I did.....) have a skeptical attitude towards NATO and some favor withdrawal altogether.

User avatar
Balsamo
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1528
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:29 pm

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Balsamo » Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:22 am

Yes,
the FN still think France is a great power that does not need to be submitted to the USA - like de Gaule -
Sweden considers its historical neutrality as the way to go.

But in those central and eastern European countries, don't forget that they are enjoying their independence only since 1989-90, after a long period of occupation by the Nazis first, and the Soviets after.

When they all got their independence back, their main imperative was to keep it, and the NATO was and is still seen as the best way to get it. Actually, joining the EU was seen in those days as a way to be admitted in NATO, much more than the other way round.
And, if they have legitimate reason to oppose the EU, most feel it was and still the price to pay for their NATO membership.
This is what Russia does not want to see happening with the Ukraine, again for legitimate reason ( in a Russian perspective).

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 16832
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:26 am

Sweden is not and has not been a NATO member. During my last visit to Sweden, in August, I was accosted by leftists leafletting in Sergels Torg against the country joining NATO. Therefore, whatever the Sweden Democrats wish, Sweden cannot "withdraw" from NATO "altogether," as the country cannot quit something to which it does not belong.
Nazism conspired to create a sense of festival time. . . . Tragically for humanity, the party generating it was the type not associated with the coloured costumes of the Brazilian Carnival, but with the brown-shirted thuggery of the NSDAP. The contrast between the dance and the march, between the samba and the strains of the Horst Wessel Lied, points to the gulf separating a life-asserting community from a community which exists only by creating a demonized other. - RG '97

User avatar
Balsamo
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1528
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:29 pm

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Balsamo » Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:47 pm

lol

I did not read Jeff's last sentence, stayed on the skepticism toward the institution.
Neutrality worked quite well for Sweden during the last century.
Sweden only joined the EU in 1995, after a referendum gave a small victory to the YES (52.8%). That same year, Norway voted NO again. Meanwhile, Norway is one of the founding member of NATO, while Sweden still refuses the idea.
There are two very different logic behind the adhesion to NATO vs EU.

Regarding the Far right in Sweden, the fact that it is pretty recent, or more exactly that it emerged only a couple of years ago, makes me think that it is more related to immigration and identity issues than a reaction to international institutions. Of course, in this context, the EU is given the image of the main responsible for the loss of sovereignty and control of borders, while it is far from obvious that the Swedish economy needed this membership in the first place. Note that Sweden joined the EU, but not the EURO zone.

Something similar can be seen in Austria (which also joined the EU in 1995)

As far as the Eastern and central European are concerned, in the 1990 the main priority of those freed countries was to ensure that their recovered independence was for good. NATO was perceived (and still is) as the best way to guarantee this independence, contrary to what one thinks, adhesion to the EU was not such a priority, except as a mean to accelerate adhesion to NATO. And fact is the adhesion to both institutions took place the same years: 2004.

Today, the least that can be said is that some of those countries "do not play the European game by the rules" (Hungary, Poland), but none of them critic their membership to NATO, not even the most nationalist parties.

User avatar
Poodle
Has More Than 8K Posts
Posts: 8186
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:12 pm
Custom Title: Regular sleeper
Location: NE corner of my living room

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Poodle » Tue Oct 24, 2017 4:15 pm

Balsamo wrote:... Today, the least that can be said is that some of those countries "do not play the European game by the rules" (Hungary, Poland), but none of them critic their membership to NATO, not even the most nationalist parties.


Just an observation, but I would suggest that this may be because NATO has not become overtly federalist in its ambitions. The EU, on the other hand ... ...

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
True Skeptic
Posts: 10669
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Oct 24, 2017 4:33 pm

federalist: allowing member states/entities a good measure of self control??????

So.......I can see describing Nato that way....just because I don't know any different and assume USA is in charge? But, seems to me the notion applies to the EU in full force...ie: the "not" part. Isn't that the recurring complaint from EU members....that Brussels is exercising too much control?

.................or what do you mean?

I posted before and its on full display...the Kurds, Brexit, Gibralter, Catalonia (that might have gotten out in some way if the Basques weren't next in line?). Yep......nation states breaking up into the most common unit: the family hearth. Each Silverback in control of his own castle.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Balsamo
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1528
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:29 pm

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Balsamo » Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:47 pm

Poodle wrote:
Balsamo wrote:... Today, the least that can be said is that some of those countries "do not play the European game by the rules" (Hungary, Poland), but none of them critic their membership to NATO, not even the most nationalist parties.


Just an observation, but I would suggest that this may be because NATO has not become overtly federalist in its ambitions. The EU, on the other hand ... ...


There is some truth in that, except the federalist thing. NATO is 100% under US control, which is for many States a good thing.
NATO is just the surrender of one of the attributes of sovereignty: defense, and for small Statea, it is a great advantage as budget dedicated to defense is reduced while protection is almost 100%. The relation between the member States and the international organization is therefore quite simple.

The EU is the result of a much more complex dynamic, an unknown Political Object as used to say Delors (IRRC), which kind of lost its way during its evolution.

User avatar
Balsamo
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1528
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:29 pm

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Balsamo » Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:57 pm

Catalonia just declared its independence from Spain...

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 6K Posts
Posts: 6196
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:57 pm

Balsamo wrote:Catalonia just declared its independence from Spain...


We’ll see how long that lasts.

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 6K Posts
Posts: 6196
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:14 am


User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 16832
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Nov 12, 2017 12:09 pm

I have some close friends from Poland. They cannot speak about the situation there. I noted in the article that, unlike in Sweden or even here, the antifascists were far outnumbered by the fascists in the march in Poland.
Nazism conspired to create a sense of festival time. . . . Tragically for humanity, the party generating it was the type not associated with the coloured costumes of the Brazilian Carnival, but with the brown-shirted thuggery of the NSDAP. The contrast between the dance and the march, between the samba and the strains of the Horst Wessel Lied, points to the gulf separating a life-asserting community from a community which exists only by creating a demonized other. - RG '97

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 6K Posts
Posts: 6196
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:47 pm

I’ll just put this here:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-europe-42049981

This is bad news, IMO. New elections only mean more uncertainty.

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 16832
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:58 pm

Which raises the question, when did the end of history end?
Nazism conspired to create a sense of festival time. . . . Tragically for humanity, the party generating it was the type not associated with the coloured costumes of the Brazilian Carnival, but with the brown-shirted thuggery of the NSDAP. The contrast between the dance and the march, between the samba and the strains of the Horst Wessel Lied, points to the gulf separating a life-asserting community from a community which exists only by creating a demonized other. - RG '97

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 6K Posts
Posts: 6196
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:18 pm

History never ends...it just repeats itself.

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 16832
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:52 pm

Tragedy, farce, clown-show . . .
Nazism conspired to create a sense of festival time. . . . Tragically for humanity, the party generating it was the type not associated with the coloured costumes of the Brazilian Carnival, but with the brown-shirted thuggery of the NSDAP. The contrast between the dance and the march, between the samba and the strains of the Horst Wessel Lied, points to the gulf separating a life-asserting community from a community which exists only by creating a demonized other. - RG '97


Return to “Holocaust Denial”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Balmoral95 and 1 guest