Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Jeff_36 » Mon Sep 10, 2018 5:43 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Final (almost) results:
Red-Green 144 seats
Alliance 143 seats
Sweden Democrats 62 seats

Moderaterna claim PM, call for Löfven to resign; SD challenges Moderaterna to follow through and change government by accepting SD support; Löfven not resigning, calls for government outside the blocs (with Centerpartiet?).


Hung parliament with the SD holding balance of power - not good.

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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby VFX » Mon Sep 10, 2018 5:50 am

Jeff_36 wrote:Hung parliament with the SD holding balance of power - not good.

Why not, I think it is excellent Jeff. You will see other countries do the same soon, especially Deutschland. Next round of elections should see quite a shift in a direction which should be beneficial to Europa.
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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:46 am

Jeff_36 wrote:Hung parliament with the SD holding balance of power - not good.

The Guardian headline this morning: "Far-right Sweden Democrats set to play kingmaker as political uncertainty looms" - which is likely the case but only because the center-right dislikes the current centrist government and Reds-Greens more than they dislike (or fear) the Sweden Democrats.

Let's be clear: if parties on the center-right were willing, there is a possibility of a cross-bloc deal without involving the Sweden Democrats. Some parties in the Alliance prefer the SD to any deal with the current government - and especially with a bloc in which the Left participates. Your cheerleading these center-right parties looks to be colliding with your call for a cordon sanitaire around the SD. Annie Lööf's Centerpartiet remains the wild card: rhetorically, the Center cannot go in with an SD-backed government - will Lööf stick to her guns or cave?

Lööf can accept an SD-backed government without directly doing so. Note that even without the Centerpartiet, a Moderaterna government backed by the SD could be formed. One possibility is a right/far right-nativist understanding: the Moderaterna + Christian Democrats (right) backed by the Sweden Democrats (far right-nativists). In Sweden, a PM can head a government without a majority, so long as there is not a majority against that prospect. So the M+KD with SD government would need tacit acceptance from the Center and Liberals . . .
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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:01 pm

Shred Them

Funny how certain people show up for "funerals" in certain cases. Anyway, at one such funny "funeral" in Koethen, Germany, over the weekend, the brown shirts, er, mourners heard David Koeckert, a leader of Thuegida, a far right group, give a solemn eulogy, filled with appreciation for the life of Cuban-German Daniel H. Koeckert called immigration into Germany an "invasion" and admonished that what is taking place today is a "slaughter of the German people. . . . This is war and can be described as such. A race war against the German people. Do you want to remain bleating sheep or do you want to become wolves and shred them?"
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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:16 pm

Nicholas Aylott, political scientist at Södertörn University, reflects on Sweden's election results here .

a personal note on the Swedish election:

in the immediate area where I am visiting, the vote was as follows:
Socialdemokraterna 38,8%
Vänsterpartiet 20,5%
Moderaterna 11,2%
Sverigedemokraterna 7,9%
Liberalerna 6,0%
Kristdemokraterna 4,8%
Centerpartiet 4,6%
Miljöpartiet 4,0%
Others 2,2%

Reds-Greens 59,7%
Alliance 21,2%
Sweden Democrats 7,9%

It feels kind of like home. :)
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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:52 am

description of "mourning" in Koethen: https://www.dw.com/en/death-of-german-f ... a-45434251
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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:54 am

Over 82% of Swedes didn't vote for the far right nativists - but this fact hasn't stopped Italy's far-right/nativist deputy prime minister and interior minister, Matteo Salvini, from tweeting, "Sweden, birthplace of multiculturalism and model for the left, has finally decided to change after years of wild, uncontrolled immigration."
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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby VFX » Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:57 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Over 82% of Swedes didn't vote for the far right nativists - but this fact hasn't stopped Italy's far-right/nativist deputy prime minister and interior minister, Matteo Salvini, from tweeting, "Sweden, birthplace of multiculturalism and model for the left, has finally decided to change after years of wild, uncontrolled immigration."

Seriously thank you for the updates on the political situation in Sweden. You sense this is important as do most of Europe.
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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:03 am

The Nazischmatzie is still avoiding Muehlenkamp's series and what was argued about the German massacres in the occupied East ...
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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:14 am

Sweden: Social Democrat PM Löfven called for a cross-bloc coalition as the first results were finalized, echoing comments he'd been making during the campaign. Yesterday, the Alliance reciprocated, saying that talks should occur between the Alliance and Social Democrats. Among other sticking points: leadership of the government, which the Social Democrats will claim as the largest party.

Latest seat count, as contested and overseas ballots are counted: 144 Reds-Greens, 143 Alliance, 62 SD, with shifts back and forth occurring hourly.
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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Sep 14, 2018 7:38 am

Sweden update:
- Riksdag seat count confirmed at Reds-Greens 144, Alliance 142, SD 62
- the Center party and the Left have the biggest % gains in the election, not the Sweden Democrats; both improved on 2014 by about 40%
- Reds-Greens make first move toward "freeze out" of Sweden Democrats, the Alliance being intransigent on heading government despite being smaller than Reds-Greens . . . but in a way designed to undercut the Moderaterna: Lövin, Green party co-leader, says that whilst she prefers that the current Social Democratic PM stay on, given the impasses, she's open to government headed by Annie Lööf of Centerpartiet
- within the Sweden Democrats, recriminations have started, with accusations that party leader Åkesson took for granted a result in the 20s and was poorly prepared for interviews and debates
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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:45 am

Bernie Sanders and Yanis Varoufakis weigh in: "A new authoritarian axis demands an international progressive front" and "Our new international movement will fight rising fascism and globalists".

Sanders writes, "The truth is, however, that to effectively oppose rightwing authoritarianism, we cannot simply go back to the failed status quo of the last several decades." In the US, the Clinton wing of the Democratic party seems did set against this approach and not even to understand how things have changed since 2008 (clearly they don't want to fight neoliberalism/globalism); I sense a similar kind of reflex - "why can't they let things be as they were?" - among those in the center and left here in Sweden, too, except for the Left party itself.
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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:07 pm

Sweden politics anecdote: Out to eat tonight my wife and I wound up talking to two people, both from the city we're visiting, seated next to us in the restaurant. They were interesting folks ... and the conversation found its way into the restaurant bar. Both our new friends had voted for the right this election - they volunteered this. Their main concern was execution, and it was partly on that basis that they'd voted right.

As to US politics, these two lukewarm right voters simply could not understand - and they pressed us - why Americans hadn't elected Bernie Sanders. Both feel that, of all the American politicians, Sanders makes the most sense and would be best for ... the American people and "for capitalism." They wound up commenting that Americans are generally exceptionally nice people - one of the two works for an American company, as a senior executive, and spends a lot of time in the US - who don't demonstrate good political judgment.
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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby montgomery » Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:58 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Sweden politics anecdote: Out to eat tonight my wife and I wound up talking to two people, both from the city we're visiting, seated next to us in the restaurant. They were interesting folks ... and the conversation found its way into the restaurant bar. Both our new friends had voted for the right this election - they volunteered this. Their main concern was execution, and it was partly on that basis that they'd voted right.

As to US politics, these two lukewarm right voters simply could not understand - and they pressed us - why Americans hadn't elected Bernie Sanders. Both feel that, of all the American politicians, Sanders makes the most sense and would be best for ... the American people and "for capitalism." They wound up commenting that Americans are generally exceptionally nice people - one of the two works for an American company, as a senior executive, and spends a lot of time in the US - who don't demonstrate good political judgment.


Did you tell them that Trump represented the same values as Bernie did, but Trump lied. That's the way I would have put it in a nutshell.

Bernie would have indeed represented the kind of capitalism practiced all over the world, and Sweden won't stray far from it. American in general don't understand what that is because American capitalism is extremist and lacks any real social responsibility. Americans largely still think that universal health care for all is socialism. Your conversations with Swedes has to clear up a few misunderstandings to begin with.

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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Jeff_36 » Sat Sep 15, 2018 12:16 am

Behold! Liberation is near. A Democrat that can appeal to swing voters.

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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Sep 15, 2018 12:23 am

Jeff_36 wrote:Behold! Liberation is near. A Democrat that can appeal to swing voters.


Hullo, Jeff.
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:34 am

montgomery wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Sweden politics anecdote: Out to eat tonight my wife and I wound up talking to two people, both from the city we're visiting, seated next to us in the restaurant. They were interesting folks ... and the conversation found its way into the restaurant bar. Both our new friends had voted for the right this election - they volunteered this. Their main concern was execution, and it was partly on that basis that they'd voted right.

As to US politics, these two lukewarm right voters simply could not understand - and they pressed us - why Americans hadn't elected Bernie Sanders. Both feel that, of all the American politicians, Sanders makes the most sense and would be best for ... the American people and "for capitalism." They wound up commenting that Americans are generally exceptionally nice people - one of the two works for an American company, as a senior executive, and spends a lot of time in the US - who don't demonstrate good political judgment.


Did you tell them that Trump represented the same values as Bernie did, but Trump lied. That's the way I would have put it in a nutshell.

Because you're an idiot? Or to troll them?

montgomery wrote:Your conversations with Swedes has to clear up a few misunderstandings to begin with.

No, my conversations needn't do any such thing. I listen more than I talk here, and I try to learn how people here see their country and the world.
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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:36 am

Jeff_36 wrote:Behold! Liberation is near. A Democrat that can appeal to swing voters.

Ugh. Of course, there are about 11 swing voters left in the US . . . 'nuff said, the "speculation about 2020" thread is the Donnydämmerung thread . . .
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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Jeff_36 » Sat Sep 15, 2018 12:21 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:Behold! Liberation is near. A Democrat that can appeal to swing voters.

Ugh. Of course, there are about 11 swing voters left in the US . . . 'nuff said, the "speculation about 2020" thread is the Donnydämmerung thread . . .


I thought the thread had been buried/locked.

On a more topical note, I apologize for giving the impression that I was predicting an effort at containing the SD from all parties involved. I was merely hoping, rather than gleefully anticipating. Grand coalitions aimed at containing dangerous extremist parties have happened before, and the SD are almost uniquely vile, unattractive, unlikable coalition partner materiel.

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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:44 pm

“Donny ” got moved to another sub forum. Anything goes here, I was actually reminding myself not to keep going!!!
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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby montgomery » Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:56 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Sweden politics anecdote: Out to eat tonight my wife and I wound up talking to two people, both from the city we're visiting, seated next to us in the restaurant. They were interesting folks ... and the conversation found its way into the restaurant bar. Both our new friends had voted for the right this election - they volunteered this. Their main concern was execution, and it was partly on that basis that they'd voted right.

As to US politics, these two lukewarm right voters simply could not understand - and they pressed us - why Americans hadn't elected Bernie Sanders. Both feel that, of all the American politicians, Sanders makes the most sense and would be best for ... the American people and "for capitalism." They wound up commenting that Americans are generally exceptionally nice people - one of the two works for an American company, as a senior executive, and spends a lot of time in the US - who don't demonstrate good political judgment.


Did you tell them that Trump represented the same values as Bernie did, but Trump lied. That's the way I would have put it in a nutshell.

Because you're an idiot? Or to troll them?

montgomery wrote:Your conversations with Swedes has to clear up a few misunderstandings to begin with.

No, my conversations needn't do any such thing. I listen more than I talk here, and I try to learn how people here see their country and the world.


I'm trying to visualize you as a decent person and if I discount your hardened attitude toward this holocaust topic, I can imagine that it's possible. But that's really me being able to give you the benefit of the doubt. I can imagine that your rudeness and your closeminded attitude is due to some sort of family related personal experience. It's to your detriment.

Also the others. It's very hard to be able to imagine any good in most of them but I would except JeffK because I know he's capable of polite discussion. And then Nessie! In a league above all of you of course, even though he's a little too obsessed to be able to keep an open mind.

That's what I'm against here but it doesn't bother me one bit. I can use all of it as evidence that I'm talking to people who are too paranoid about hearing something that does follow the party line. There's a reason for that which I'm starting to discover.

We'll keep at it though!

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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby scrmbldggs » Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:07 pm

More delusions of grandeur. Soon it's gonna make its little head asplode.
.

Lard, save me from your followers.

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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby montgomery » Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:18 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:More delusions of grandeur. Soon it's gonna make its little head asplode.


eggs, over easy

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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:18 pm

montgomery wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:More delusions of grandeur. Soon it's gonna make its little head asplode.


eggs, over easy
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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Sep 16, 2018 7:29 am

Jeff_36 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:Behold! Liberation is near. A Democrat that can appeal to swing voters.

Ugh. Of course, there are about 11 swing voters left in the US . . . 'nuff said, the "speculation about 2020" thread is the Donnydämmerung thread . . .


I thought the thread had been buried/locked.

On a more topical note, I apologize for giving the impression that I was predicting an effort at containing the SD from all parties involved. I was merely hoping, rather than gleefully anticipating. Grand coalitions aimed at containing dangerous extremist parties have happened before, and the SD are almost uniquely vile, unattractive, unlikable coalition partner materiel.

"The Moderate party mayors of three wealthy municipalities near Malmö have called for the party to enter into discussions with the anti-immigration Sweden Democrats." (https://www.thelocal.se/20180913/malm-c ... rats-talks) For example,
Pia Almström, the mayor of Kävlinge, 30 kilometres north of Malmö, told The Local that she would support the Moderates' party leader Ulf Kristersson if he decided to enter into negotiations with the populist party, which has until now been a pariah in Swedish politics owing to its extremist, neo-Nazi origins.

"If it was necessary to get rid of the Social Democrats I would support it," she told The Local. "For me what's most important is that we get rid of Stefan Löfven as Prime Minister and that in Malmö, we get a change in control. . . ."

The Moderaterna like the policy of a cordon sanitaire, and, in keeping with their slogan "Stoppa Sosseriet" [stop the socialist party], are happy to ally with the nativist Sweden Democrats to get one.
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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:59 am

The more I think about the Sweden elections, the more I think they fit into a main trend across Europe: the absolute collapse of what might be called "right-wing Social Democracy," the large, centrist Social Democratic parties are becoming increasingly weaker. Sweden, however, seems to moderate trends, so the Social Democrats' collapse in Sweden is less than say in France. But it is a collapse just the same.

The Sweden Democrats OTOH may have peaked, we will see. Right now, the center-right Alliance has to make a move. The key to whether they go into some form of cooperation with the Sweden Democrats, and breathe new life into a party that underwhelmed in the election, will come when the Riksdag sits and votes for a new leader early next week: will Annie Lööf (Center) and Jan Björklund (Liberals) support the Moderaterna's candidate? If they do, since the Moderaterna at this point transparently lean toward tacit, if not open, collaboration with the SD, then, observers here conclude, the full Alliance, despite consistent statements to the contrary from Lööf and Björklund, will be on track, with Center and Liberal support, to collaborate with the SD.
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Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Postby VFX » Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:29 pm

The peaking of the right wing parties will depend on the immigration controls the incumbent parties implement. It is this which is driving right wing politics as well as the fear mongering. The rapes, bombings and no go zones make this a certainty. Antifa are more dangerous than people realize. The situation is similar to Berlin in the 1920s. You just need to replace Antifi with Communists and the SA with the Nordic Front. It is happening again. Nothing wrong with Socialism but Antifa are exremists.
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