Julius Streicher's thoughts on race-mixing with Jews

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Julius Streicher's thoughts on race-mixing with Jews

Postby Aaron Richards » Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:21 pm

Have you guys heard these speeches? If not, give em a listen. I have provided translation in the video description.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5j4CKfKufI

Just a reminder how much National Socialists hated Jews.
"...we had the duty towards our Volk (the German people) to kill this Volk (the Jewish people) that wanted to kill us." - Himmler in his 1943 Posen speech reminding any future holocaust denier how absurd their beliefs really are.
I compile rebuttals to popular holocaust denier canards here: http://imgur.com/a/725A7

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Re: Julius Streicher's thoughts on race-mixing with Jews

Postby Jeff_36 » Fri Sep 15, 2017 4:34 am

Aaron Richards wrote:Have you guys heard these speeches? If not, give em a listen. I have provided translation in the video description.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5j4CKfKufI

Just a reminder how much National Socialists hated Jews.


Streicher's hanging was apparently a messy affair. I good a good giggle when I found that out. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Julius Streicher's thoughts on race-mixing with Jews

Postby Balmoral95 » Fri Sep 15, 2017 5:24 am

Jeff_36 wrote:
Aaron Richards wrote:Have you guys heard these speeches? If not, give em a listen. I have provided translation in the video description.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5j4CKfKufI

Just a reminder how much National Socialists hated Jews.


Streicher's hanging was apparently a messy affair. I good a good giggle when I found that out. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


Cruel isn't justified in any circumstance either by accident/incompetence or intent. Hanging is a ghastly death, Jeff, in and of itself.

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Re: Julius Streicher's thoughts on race-mixing with Jews

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Sep 15, 2017 11:13 am

Came across this today, from a letter to Der Stürmer, touching on the fate of the Jews, written by a Wehrmacht soldier fighting in the East:

Image
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: Julius Streicher's thoughts on race-mixing with Jews

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:23 pm

Just think, Streicher trained as an elementary school teacher.

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Re: Julius Streicher's thoughts on race-mixing with Jews

Postby Jeff_36 » Sat Sep 16, 2017 1:56 am

Balmoral95 wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:
Aaron Richards wrote:Have you guys heard these speeches? If not, give em a listen. I have provided translation in the video description.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5j4CKfKufI

Just a reminder how much National Socialists hated Jews.


Streicher's hanging was apparently a messy affair. I good a good giggle when I found that out. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


Cruel isn't justified in any circumstance either by accident/incompetence or intent. Hanging is a ghastly death, Jeff, in and of itself.


I suggest you read some of the stuff he wrote about people like you. It will alter your stance.

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Re: Julius Streicher's thoughts on race-mixing with Jews

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Sep 16, 2017 2:14 am

Ahem, the idea that Balmoral is unfamiliar with the thoughts/writings of Streicher, and with what was published in Der Stürmer, is one of the funnier propositions advanced in this forum lately.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: Julius Streicher's thoughts on race-mixing with Jews

Postby Balmoral95 » Sat Sep 16, 2017 2:23 am

Jeff_36 wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:
Aaron Richards wrote:Have you guys heard these speeches? If not, give em a listen. I have provided translation in the video description.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5j4CKfKufI

Just a reminder how much National Socialists hated Jews.


Streicher's hanging was apparently a messy affair. I good a good giggle when I found that out. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


Cruel isn't justified in any circumstance either by accident/incompetence or intent. Hanging is a ghastly death, Jeff, in and of itself.


I suggest you read some of the stuff he wrote about people like you. It will alter your stance.


Listen to me you snotty little ingenue: I've forgotten more about this {!#%@} than you'll ever know. You go sober your ass up and we'll forget your stupid, gratuitous remark that started this.
And "people like you" is a formulation that borders on offensive. If you want to insult me, fine, but don't compound it by straying very close to an epithet.

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Re: Julius Streicher's thoughts on race-mixing with Jews

Postby Jeff_36 » Sat Sep 16, 2017 3:35 am

Balmoral95 wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:
Aaron Richards wrote:Have you guys heard these speeches? If not, give em a listen. I have provided translation in the video description.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5j4CKfKufI

Just a reminder how much National Socialists hated Jews.


Streicher's hanging was apparently a messy affair. I good a good giggle when I found that out. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


Cruel isn't justified in any circumstance either by accident/incompetence or intent. Hanging is a ghastly death, Jeff, in and of itself.


I suggest you read some of the stuff he wrote about people like you. It will alter your stance.


Listen to me you snotty little ingenue: I've forgotten more about this {!#%@} than you'll ever know. You go sober your ass up and we'll forget your stupid, gratuitous remark that started this.
And "people like you" is a formulation that borders on offensive. If you want to insult me, fine, but don't compound it by straying very close to an epithet.


You are clearly a better human than me - I'll admit that. I just hate genocidal freaks of all stripes and Streicher was a rotten sore of a human being. I will not take back my satisfaction at his well deserved passing but I will concede that my wording was imprudent.

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Re: Julius Streicher's thoughts on race-mixing with Jews

Postby Balmoral95 » Sat Sep 16, 2017 3:45 am

Jeff_36 wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:
Aaron Richards wrote:Have you guys heard these speeches? If not, give em a listen. I have provided translation in the video description.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5j4CKfKufI

Just a reminder how much National Socialists hated Jews.


Streicher's hanging was apparently a messy affair. I good a good giggle when I found that out. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


Cruel isn't justified in any circumstance either by accident/incompetence or intent. Hanging is a ghastly death, Jeff, in and of itself.


I suggest you read some of the stuff he wrote about people like you. It will alter your stance.


Listen to me you snotty little ingenue: I've forgotten more about this {!#%@} than you'll ever know. You go sober your ass up and we'll forget your stupid, gratuitous remark that started this.
And "people like you" is a formulation that borders on offensive. If you want to insult me, fine, but don't compound it by straying very close to an epithet.


You are clearly a better human than me - I'll admit that. I just hate genocidal freaks of all stripes and Streicher was a rotten sore of a human being. I will not take back my satisfaction at his well deserved passing but I will concede that my wording was imprudent.


Back to the OP, then.

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Re: Julius Streicher's thoughts on race-mixing with Jews

Postby Jeff_36 » Sat Sep 16, 2017 3:52 am

One of the most disturbing audios I have ever heard. he may not have planned or known about the FS per say, but if anyone asks why average folks committed the most horrid crimes in history - it helps to point out that this guy would have been their version of talk-radio. Rhetoric like this creates a favorable atmosphere for savagery of the worst kind.

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Re: Julius Streicher's thoughts on race-mixing with Jews

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Sep 16, 2017 12:50 pm

So here's a question about this case, I recall reading an AHF discussion about it:

Streicher was out of favor and "out of the loop" by 1940; his obnoxious behavior was impossible even for the strutting obnoxious Gauleiters and party bosses to tolerate. Having used his office to enrich himself (de rigeur for his cohort), he crossed the line in going after Göring on personal grounds. SD types, with their "scientific" and "rational" anti-Semitism were put of by Der Stürmer. In 1940 Streicher was stripped of most his party positions and went into semi-retirement, continuing to publish, however, Der Stürmer.

Streicher undoubtedly spread racial hatred among the public and continued doing so after 1940; OTOH to say that Streicher's Stürmer had an impact on the planning and execution of the FS - through his public hate campaign conducted via Stürmer and his publishing efforts (Der Giftpilz ), etc - was not supported by evidence; given Streicher's position by 1940 his playing a direct role in advocating, planning, or carrying out the FS would have been nigh impossible. In Stürmer, his speeches and his various publications during the 1930s Streicher was (by the foreign standards of Schenck, Yates and Brandenburg) guilty of inciting party activists and other Germans to violence against German Jews. At the same time, these offenses are not directly connected to the Final Solution; the FS was not decided or organized by the public but by the higher echelons of the Nazi leadership, especially but not exclusively the SS/SD whose leaders were not influenced by, or even favorable to, Stürmer and Streicher's circle. It was however the FS for which Streicher hung (advocating for killing Jews whilst the murder was underway). The IMT judgment IIRC said that Streicher continued publishing Stürmer, and promoting in his publications the extermination of the Jews, whilst being aware (via, inter alia, newspaper reports) that the FS was being implemented.

Whilst he was a significant figure in 1930s predations against German Jews (e.g., organizer of the 1933 boycott, active in Kristallnacht), Streicher was part of neither the war planning (he was acquitted on this count IIRC) nor of the Final Solution. Activities, including crimes, within Germany during the 1930s, were not in the purview of the IMT.

Given this background, should the IMT have imposed the death penalty in Streicher's case? Was there a legal basis for the tribunal's having done so, and was the court's reasoning sound, or was the IMT judgment flawed on legal grounds? (I am not focused in asking these questions on Streicher but on the legal case against him and the legal basis for the death penalty. The judgment is in IMT, Blue Series, vol XXII, pp 547-549, which I shall now re-read to see if I put anything above correctly!)
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: Julius Streicher's thoughts on race-mixing with Jews

Postby Jeff_36 » Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:21 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:So here's a question about this case, I recall reading an AHF discussion about it:

Streicher was out of favor and "out of the loop" by 1940; his obnoxious behavior was impossible even for the strutting obnoxious Gauleiters and party bosses to tolerate. Having used his office to enrich himself (de rigeur for his cohort), he crossed the line in going after Göring on personal grounds. SD types, with their "scientific" and "rational" anti-Semitism were put of by Der Stürmer. In 1940 Streicher was stripped of most his party positions and went into semi-retirement, continuing to publish, however, Der Stürmer.

Streicher undoubtedly spread racial hatred among the public and continued doing so after 1940; OTOH to say that Streicher's Stürmer had an impact on the planning and execution of the FS - through his public hate campaign conducted via Stürmer and his publishing efforts (Der Giftpilz ), etc - was not supported by evidence; given Streicher's position by 1940 his playing a direct role in advocating, planning, or carrying out the FS would have been nigh impossible. In Stürmer, his speeches and his various publications during the 1930s Streicher was (by the foreign standards of Schenck, Yates and Brandenburg) guilty of inciting party activists and other Germans to violence against German Jews. At the same time, these offenses are not directly connected to the Final Solution; the FS was not decided or organized by the public but by the higher echelons of the Nazi leadership, especially but not exclusively the SS/SD whose leaders were not influenced by, or even favorable to, Stürmer and Streicher's circle. It was however the FS for which Streicher hung (advocating for killing Jews whilst the murder was underway). The IMT judgment IIRC said that Streicher continued publishing Stürmer, and promoting in his publications the extermination of the Jews, whilst being aware (via, inter alia, newspaper reports) that the FS was being implemented.

Whilst he was a significant figure in 1930s predations against German Jews (e.g., organizer of the 1933 boycott, active in Kristallnacht), Streicher was part of neither the war planning (he was acquitted on this count IIRC) nor of the Final Solution. Activities, including crimes, within Germany during the 1930s, were not in the purview of the IMT.

Given this background, should the IMT have imposed the death penalty in Streicher's case? Was there a legal basis for the tribunal's having done so, and was the court's reasoning sound, or was the IMT judgment flawed on legal grounds? (I am not focused in asking these questions on Streicher but on the legal case against him and the legal basis for the death penalty. The judgment is in IMT, Blue Series, vol XXII, pp 547-549, which I shall now re-read to see if I put anything above correctly!)


As stated above, I think that the incessant racial incitement by Streicher played a major role in the desensitizing of the average perpetrator to the crimes committed. By dehumanizing the Jews to the degree that they were seen as more of a toxin than anything else he enabled ordinary men to become party to the worst mass killing of all time. In a way, the FS may have been more difficult were it not for him.

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Re: Julius Streicher's thoughts on race-mixing with Jews

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:35 pm

but he was charged with and convicted for participating in a common plan for mass murder ... there is not only no evidence I know of for this but it is more than extremely unlikely given his status after 1940 ...
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: Julius Streicher's thoughts on race-mixing with Jews

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:03 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:but he was charged with and convicted for participating in a common plan for mass murder ... there is not only no evidence I know of for this but it is more than extremely unlikely given his status after 1940 ...



I read Telford Taylor's "The Anatomy of the Nuremberg Trials: A Personal Memoir" a couple of years ago. One of the things that stuck out to me was his disagreement over Streicher's death penalty. He essentially wrote the same thing you wrote above, Streicher lost all of his personal power before the Final Solution began. He never commanded or participated in any aspect, from the Einsantzgruppen to the extermination camps.

Taylor thought Streicher was a disgusting human being, however, he never felt this justified executing him. I agree. Did Streicher incite violence? I can see that. But, was he directly or even indirectly responsible for the attempted genocide of Europe's Jews? I don't believe so and neither did Taylor.

I think a prison sentence was justified for him but not a death sentence.

Another thing that stuck out at me was that the Soviets wanted to hang everybody but the US, British and French fought them on this. So much for the idea of a "show trial."

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Re: Julius Streicher's thoughts on race-mixing with Jews

Postby Jeff_36 » Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:11 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:but he was charged with and convicted for participating in a common plan for mass murder ... there is not only no evidence I know of for this but it is more than extremely unlikely given his status after 1940 ...


Then I suppose that the charge should not have stuck. I'm not unhappy that he was hanged though. Der Sturmer's tracts are repulsive on a physical level to me.

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Re: Julius Streicher's thoughts on race-mixing with Jews

Postby Balsamo » Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:52 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:So here's a question about this case, I recall reading an AHF discussion about it:

Streicher was out of favor and "out of the loop" by 1940; his obnoxious behavior was impossible even for the strutting obnoxious Gauleiters and party bosses to tolerate. Having used his office to enrich himself (de rigeur for his cohort), he crossed the line in going after Göring on personal grounds. SD types, with their "scientific" and "rational" anti-Semitism were put of by Der Stürmer. In 1940 Streicher was stripped of most his party positions and went into semi-retirement, continuing to publish, however, Der Stürmer.

Streicher undoubtedly spread racial hatred among the public and continued doing so after 1940; OTOH to say that Streicher's Stürmer had an impact on the planning and execution of the FS - through his public hate campaign conducted via Stürmer and his publishing efforts (Der Giftpilz ), etc - was not supported by evidence; given Streicher's position by 1940 his playing a direct role in advocating, planning, or carrying out the FS would have been nigh impossible. In Stürmer, his speeches and his various publications during the 1930s Streicher was (by the foreign standards of Schenck, Yates and Brandenburg) guilty of inciting party activists and other Germans to violence against German Jews. At the same time, these offenses are not directly connected to the Final Solution; the FS was not decided or organized by the public but by the higher echelons of the Nazi leadership, especially but not exclusively the SS/SD whose leaders were not influenced by, or even favorable to, Stürmer and Streicher's circle. It was however the FS for which Streicher hung (advocating for killing Jews whilst the murder was underway). The IMT judgment IIRC said that Streicher continued publishing Stürmer, and promoting in his publications the extermination of the Jews, whilst being aware (via, inter alia, newspaper reports) that the FS was being implemented.

Whilst he was a significant figure in 1930s predations against German Jews (e.g., organizer of the 1933 boycott, active in Kristallnacht), Streicher was part of neither the war planning (he was acquitted on this count IIRC) nor of the Final Solution. Activities, including crimes, within Germany during the 1930s, were not in the purview of the IMT.

Given this background, should the IMT have imposed the death penalty in Streicher's case? Was there a legal basis for the tribunal's having done so, and was the court's reasoning sound, or was the IMT judgment flawed on legal grounds? (I am not focused in asking these questions on Streicher but on the legal case against him and the legal basis for the death penalty. The judgment is in IMT, Blue Series, vol XXII, pp 547-549, which I shall now re-read to see if I put anything above correctly!)


Excellent post, Statmec.

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Re: Julius Streicher's thoughts on race-mixing with Jews

Postby Balsamo » Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:25 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:So here's a question about this case, I recall reading an AHF discussion about it:

Streicher was out of favor and "out of the loop" by 1940; his obnoxious behavior was impossible even for the strutting obnoxious Gauleiters and party bosses to tolerate. Having used his office to enrich himself (de rigeur for his cohort), he crossed the line in going after Göring on personal grounds. SD types, with their "scientific" and "rational" anti-Semitism were put of by Der Stürmer. In 1940 Streicher was stripped of most his party positions and went into semi-retirement, continuing to publish, however, Der Stürmer.

Streicher undoubtedly spread racial hatred among the public and continued doing so after 1940; OTOH to say that Streicher's Stürmer had an impact on the planning and execution of the FS - through his public hate campaign conducted via Stürmer and his publishing efforts (Der Giftpilz ), etc - was not supported by evidence; given Streicher's position by 1940 his playing a direct role in advocating, planning, or carrying out the FS would have been nigh impossible. In Stürmer, his speeches and his various publications during the 1930s Streicher was (by the foreign standards of Schenck, Yates and Brandenburg) guilty of inciting party activists and other Germans to violence against German Jews. At the same time, these offenses are not directly connected to the Final Solution; the FS was not decided or organized by the public but by the higher echelons of the Nazi leadership, especially but not exclusively the SS/SD whose leaders were not influenced by, or even favorable to, Stürmer and Streicher's circle. It was however the FS for which Streicher hung (advocating for killing Jews whilst the murder was underway). The IMT judgment IIRC said that Streicher continued publishing Stürmer, and promoting in his publications the extermination of the Jews, whilst being aware (via, inter alia, newspaper reports) that the FS was being implemented.

Whilst he was a significant figure in 1930s predations against German Jews (e.g., organizer of the 1933 boycott, active in Kristallnacht), Streicher was part of neither the war planning (he was acquitted on this count IIRC) nor of the Final Solution. Activities, including crimes, within Germany during the 1930s, were not in the purview of the IMT.

Given this background, should the IMT have imposed the death penalty in Streicher's case? Was there a legal basis for the tribunal's having done so, and was the court's reasoning sound, or was the IMT judgment flawed on legal grounds? (I am not focused in asking these questions on Streicher but on the legal case against him and the legal basis for the death penalty. The judgment is in IMT, Blue Series, vol XXII, pp 547-549, which I shall now re-read to see if I put anything above correctly!)


As stated above, I think that the incessant racial incitement by Streicher played a major role in the desensitizing of the average perpetrator to the crimes committed. By dehumanizing the Jews to the degree that they were seen as more of a toxin than anything else he enabled ordinary men to become party to the worst mass killing of all time. In a way, the FS may have been more difficult were it not for him.


I do not agree, Jeff.
Der Sturmer was a highly symbolic media representation of Nazism. The extreme crap, as were many extreme paper in those days. It had its readers of course, but not that many actually. IIRC its circulation peaked at 400.000 in a country of over 80.000.000, that was about a third of the circulation of the Völkischer Beobachter runned by Goebbels. And by the time Der Sturmer had its peak, Antisemitism was a European phenomenon, even though of course, limited to a fringe of the population. Der Sturmer is famous for its caricature of Jews, but those were to be found in many foreign papers as well.

Of course, it contributed to pre-war antisemitic crimes, and there have been too much of them, but those were not really part of a national policy, and while the Nazi regime were grateful during the first years, as Statmec wrote during the Boycott, the paper soon became more a handicap, annoying to people like Goebbels who wanted a more "intellectual expression of Antisemitism" - Goebbels hated Streicher and his paper, an embarrassment for the Regime itself when it wanted to present himself well in 1936.
But then, there was Hitler who always shew an extraordinary fidelity to his former "Fight Comrades", and Streicher was also a Gauleiter, even when the behavior of those "pigs" were counter-productive for the Regime.
And as Statmec pointed out, by 1940, the paper was the phantom of what it had been. Yet, the mass murderous version of the Final Solution was still to come.

The theory that Streicher had a role in the Final Solution used to fit well with the "Intentionalist approach", but that is basically it.
I do not cry when thinking about his execution, but i agree that there were no real legal basis for it. But i guess he was too much a symbol of the hatred vehiculated by the Nazi to be spared, and somehow i kind of agree with that. He was a dirty clown, but nevertheless just a clown.
I am not saying that it was wrong to put him on trial, he surely did pretty nasty things as Gauleiter in his Gau, and a proper juridiction should have been designated for those, but he had no place in the IMT.

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Re: Julius Streicher's thoughts on race-mixing with Jews

Postby Balsamo » Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:32 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:but he was charged with and convicted for participating in a common plan for mass murder ... there is not only no evidence I know of for this but it is more than extremely unlikely given his status after 1940 ...


Then I suppose that the charge should not have stuck. I'm not unhappy that he was hanged though. Der Sturmer's tracts are repulsive on a physical level to me.


Indeed, and we know you are more reserved than others when it comes to fundamental liberty as "freedom of the press" or "freedom of expressions", but being repulsive is not enough to deserve death penalty. Death penalty is a serious thing and it should require concrete and indisputable evidences for it to be pronounced. Otherwise, one is no better that those one executes, sorry to say.

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Re: Julius Streicher's thoughts on race-mixing with Jews

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:59 pm

Taylor makes two further points worth recalling: 1) Der Stürmer was neither a party nor government publication; it was in the private sphere, owned and published by Streicher. As Taylor says, Streicher was thus made a party to a case against party and government officials - "for publishing statements in which he believed." Taylor here raises an important freedom of the press/freedom of speech concern. 2) Streicher was included among those indicted in part on account of "the general recollection of Streicher the Gauleiter of the 1930s," which was not a situation being adjudicated at Nuremberg. This is a legal problem in the prosecution and judgment.

All this is aside from my personal abhorrence for the man, and, ironically, the other Nuremberg defendants also abhorred Streicher and tried to avoid him. Abhorrence is a separate matter to criminal conviction and certainly death. Abhorring someone and his beliefs/statements/actions does not equate to a reason for executing him or her. As Balsamo said, Streicher surely was deserving of criminal prosecution but I don't see how he belonged in the dock with the Big Fish at the IMT, despite the prosecution's zealously made case against him.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: Julius Streicher's thoughts on race-mixing with Jews

Postby Jeff_36 » Sun Sep 17, 2017 1:08 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:All this is aside from my personal abhorrence for the man, and, ironically, the other Nuremberg defendants also abhorred Streicher and tried to avoid him. Abhorrence is a separate matter to criminal conviction and certainly death. Abhorring someone and his beliefs/statements/actions does not equate to a reason for executing him or her. As Balsamo said, Streicher surely was deserving of criminal prosecution but I don't see how he belonged in the dock with the Big Fish at the IMT, despite the prosecution's zealously made case against him.


As I stated, with nose held, I do not think he deserved a conviction on the charges laid before him. I find it funny that the other defendants hated him - he merely put in print what most of them thought, albeit in more crude terms.

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Re: Julius Streicher's thoughts on race-mixing with Jews

Postby Balmoral95 » Sun Sep 17, 2017 1:34 am

Jeff_36 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:All this is aside from my personal abhorrence for the man, and, ironically, the other Nuremberg defendants also abhorred Streicher and tried to avoid him. Abhorrence is a separate matter to criminal conviction and certainly death. Abhorring someone and his beliefs/statements/actions does not equate to a reason for executing him or her. As Balsamo said, Streicher surely was deserving of criminal prosecution but I don't see how he belonged in the dock with the Big Fish at the IMT, despite the prosecution's zealously made case against him.


As I stated, with nose held, I do not think he deserved a conviction on the charges laid before him. I find it funny that the other defendants hated him - he merely put in print what most of them thought, albeit in more crude terms.


This misses the mark. Whilst true that the other defendants' shared to one degree or another Streicher's anti-semitism, he stood alone in the dock with them, representative of the Faustian bargain they had all made with the gutter. They had finally been exposed to the fact they went to bed drunk with a princess and woke up with a whore. Really more about class, education, family status.

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Re: Julius Streicher's thoughts on race-mixing with Jews

Postby BornAgainDisciple » Sun Sep 17, 2017 10:04 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Came across this today, from a letter to Der Stürmer, touching on the fate of the Jews, written by a Wehrmacht soldier fighting in the East:

Image


Where did you find this?

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Re: Julius Streicher's thoughts on race-mixing with Jews

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Sep 17, 2017 10:22 pm

Guenther Lewy, Perpetrators: The World of the Holocaust Killers (Oxford U Press, 2017), p 49 (citing Manoschek, ed, "Es gift nur eines für das Judentum - Vernichtung:" Das Judenbild in deutschen Soldatenbriefen, 1995) (I don't recommend Lewy's book)
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: Julius Streicher's thoughts on race-mixing with Jews

Postby Balsamo » Sun Sep 17, 2017 11:03 pm

Omer Bartov's Hitler's army is filled with such letters.
A very good read by the way.

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Re: Julius Streicher's thoughts on race-mixing with Jews

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:01 am

second Balsamo's recommendation of Bartov's book
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: Julius Streicher's thoughts on race-mixing with Jews

Postby Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:53 pm

Nice post, StatMech!

I guess IMT wanted to give a clear message, 'genocide isn't just pulling the trigger' for the victims to die. It's a procedure, with many-many stages, and only the last is the physical extermination of the target group. All eight or so previous phases can be seen in my signature.
According to experts and scholars, the 10 stages of every genocide are
Classification Symbolization Discrimination Dehumanization Organization Polarization Preparation Persecution Extermination
... and finally the 10th stage:
Denial
http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocide/t ... ocide.html

XYZ Contagion (‘Because the truth is contagious‘), an investigative/research political and historical website, deals also with the Srebrenica Genocide
https://xyzcontagion.wordpress.com/about/#English

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Re: Julius Streicher's thoughts on race-mixing with Jews

Postby TheRandomThrowAway1 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:17 pm

Aaron, Inbox/DM - finally found you!

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Re: Julius Streicher's thoughts on race-mixing with Jews

Postby Pyrrho » Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:19 pm

That seems auspicious.
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Re: Julius Streicher's thoughts on race-mixing with Jews

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:13 am

TheRandomThrowAway1 wrote:Aaron, Inbox/DM - finally found you!



It's always nice to see a reunion amongst friends....

Welcome to the forum.


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