Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

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blake121666
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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby blake121666 » Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:27 pm

Balmoral95 wrote:
blake121666 wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:>"That is what is being done nowadays."

Where exactly?


This is what Rudolf has been saying for many years. I think it is this video calling for this to be done:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vi1AtKtPrXM

The general idea is that a large enough concentration will not reach each and every part of the space within the room where this procedure is done in a suitable timeframe to ensure the death of each person in the room.

So this is one of the current scientific bases for denial of homicidal Zyklon gassings at Auschwitz Kremas.

The initial dosage would have to scale as the cube root of the volume of the room. And the evaporation rate would depend on the temperature. So run some tests with rats in different volumes and at different temperatures with different initial dosages of Zyklon (or equivalent) and see how long it would take for the rats to die. Rudolf suspects that the dosages required are at least an order of magnitude higher than alleged.

EDIT: I see that the video shows for me but not for others ... must be because I commented on it. The video was called: "The ultimate Holocaust Gas Chamber Challenge". It might be available elsewhere. Aaron Richards, who I think posts here, knows of this video. He and I posted a couple comments back and forth.


All of which has nothing to do with my question. :lol:


Then you didn't understand what you were questioning. I was saying that Revisionists nowadays are stating Rudolf's arguments against the dosages claimed for the alleged gassings. "That is what is being done nowadays." Do you get it now, chuckles?

EDIT: I figured out how to embed that video. BTW, the person in that vid is sacrificing his life with this video. The question is not IF he were to die, it is WHEN. He most likely would die in this experiment he suggests, it might not happen until the next day, though. At the least he would experience a condition requiring medical aid!

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:17 pm

blake121666 wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:>"That is what is being done nowadays."

Where exactly?


This is what Rudolf has been saying for many years. I think it is this video calling for this to be done:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vi1AtKtPrXM

The general idea is that a large enough concentration will not reach each and every part of the space within the room where this procedure is done in a suitable timeframe to ensure the death of each person in the room.

So this is one of the current scientific bases for denial of homicidal Zyklon gassings at Auschwitz Kremas.

The initial dosage would have to scale as the cube root of the volume of the room. And the evaporation rate would depend on the temperature. So run some tests with rats in different volumes and at different temperatures with different initial dosages of Zyklon (or equivalent) and see how long it would take for the rats to die. Rudolf suspects that the dosages required are at least an order of magnitude higher than alleged.

EDIT: It took me multiple edits to figure out exactly how youtube videos can be embedded on this board.



Why do all denier videos start with whining about how many countries have HD laws?

I'm all for Rudolf gassing himself in a makeshift gas chamber, I find the irony of Rudolf dying in such a fashion hysterical. However, I can see the liability both ethically and legally of such an act.

I do find the denier obsession over the range of times it took for the victims to die perplexing. What difference does it really make? There are too many variables to calculate, primarily because AFAIK we don't have an agreement over how much ZB was used for each gassing operation. I don't remember seeing anywhere where the Germans actually measured the amounts used to eliminate the victims sealed inside of the gas chambers, we only have estimates. Other issues I can think of include the fluctuating numbers of victims, the varied temperatures of the rooms, the purity of each batch of ZB, etc. We also need to consider the emotional state of each observer, people under stress measure time differently.

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Balmoral95 » Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:40 pm

blake121666 wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:
blake121666 wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:>"That is what is being done nowadays."

Where exactly?


This is what Rudolf has been saying for many years. I think it is this video calling for this to be done:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vi1AtKtPrXM

The general idea is that a large enough concentration will not reach each and every part of the space within the room where this procedure is done in a suitable timeframe to ensure the death of each person in the room.

So this is one of the current scientific bases for denial of homicidal Zyklon gassings at Auschwitz Kremas.

The initial dosage would have to scale as the cube root of the volume of the room. And the evaporation rate would depend on the temperature. So run some tests with rats in different volumes and at different temperatures with different initial dosages of Zyklon (or equivalent) and see how long it would take for the rats to die. Rudolf suspects that the dosages required are at least an order of magnitude higher than alleged.

EDIT: I see that the video shows for me but not for others ... must be because I commented on it. The video was called: "The ultimate Holocaust Gas Chamber Challenge". It might be available elsewhere. Aaron Richards, who I think posts here, knows of this video. He and I posted a couple comments back and forth.


All of which has nothing to do with my question. :lol:


Then you didn't understand what you were questioning. I was saying that Revisionists nowadays are stating Rudolf's arguments against the dosages claimed for the alleged gassings. "That is what is being done nowadays." Do you get it now, chuckles?

EDIT: I figured out how to embed that video. BTW, the person in that vid is sacrificing his life with this video. The question is not IF he were to die, it is WHEN. He most likely would die in this experiment he suggests, it might not happen until the next day, though. At the least he would experience a condition requiring medical aid!


I knew I shouldn't have bothered in the first place.

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby blake121666 » Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:48 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
blake121666 wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:>"That is what is being done nowadays."

Where exactly?


This is what Rudolf has been saying for many years. I think it is this video calling for this to be done:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vi1AtKtPrXM

The general idea is that a large enough concentration will not reach each and every part of the space within the room where this procedure is done in a suitable timeframe to ensure the death of each person in the room.

So this is one of the current scientific bases for denial of homicidal Zyklon gassings at Auschwitz Kremas.

The initial dosage would have to scale as the cube root of the volume of the room. And the evaporation rate would depend on the temperature. So run some tests with rats in different volumes and at different temperatures with different initial dosages of Zyklon (or equivalent) and see how long it would take for the rats to die. Rudolf suspects that the dosages required are at least an order of magnitude higher than alleged.

EDIT: It took me multiple edits to figure out exactly how youtube videos can be embedded on this board.



Why do all denier videos start with whining about how many countries have HD laws?

I'm all for Rudolf gassing himself in a makeshift gas chamber, I find the irony of Rudolf dying in such a fashion hysterical. However, I can see the liability both ethically and legally of such an act.

I do find the denier obsession over the range of times it took for the victims to die perplexing. What difference does it really make? There are too many variables to calculate, primarily because AFAIK we don't have an agreement over how much ZB was used for each gassing operation. I don't remember seeing anywhere where the Germans actually measured the amounts used to eliminate the victims sealed inside of the gas chambers, we only have estimates. Other issues I can think of include the fluctuating numbers of victims, the varied temperatures of the rooms, the purity of each batch of ZB, etc. We also need to consider the emotional state of each observer, people under stress measure time differently.


The video is Reynouard, not Rudolf.

Does Jeffk know what an order of magnitude is? 10x, Jeff. A statement that all persons died in the chamber in 15 minutes turns into: all persons died in the chamber in 150 minutes. 2.5 hours versus 15 minutes. There's a bit more difference in that than you seem to be making out, isn't there?

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby blake121666 » Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:54 am

Balmoral95 wrote:
blake121666 wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:
blake121666 wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:>"That is what is being done nowadays."

Where exactly?


This is what Rudolf has been saying for many years. I think it is this video calling for this to be done:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vi1AtKtPrXM

The general idea is that a large enough concentration will not reach each and every part of the space within the room where this procedure is done in a suitable timeframe to ensure the death of each person in the room.

So this is one of the current scientific bases for denial of homicidal Zyklon gassings at Auschwitz Kremas.

The initial dosage would have to scale as the cube root of the volume of the room. And the evaporation rate would depend on the temperature. So run some tests with rats in different volumes and at different temperatures with different initial dosages of Zyklon (or equivalent) and see how long it would take for the rats to die. Rudolf suspects that the dosages required are at least an order of magnitude higher than alleged.

EDIT: I see that the video shows for me but not for others ... must be because I commented on it. The video was called: "The ultimate Holocaust Gas Chamber Challenge". It might be available elsewhere. Aaron Richards, who I think posts here, knows of this video. He and I posted a couple comments back and forth.


All of which has nothing to do with my question. :lol:


Then you didn't understand what you were questioning. I was saying that Revisionists nowadays are stating Rudolf's arguments against the dosages claimed for the alleged gassings. "That is what is being done nowadays." Do you get it now, chuckles?

EDIT: I figured out how to embed that video. BTW, the person in that vid is sacrificing his life with this video. The question is not IF he were to die, it is WHEN. He most likely would die in this experiment he suggests, it might not happen until the next day, though. At the least he would experience a condition requiring medical aid!


I knew I shouldn't have bothered in the first place.


Quite right. Remember that the next time you go off on your own with any thoughts. Just stick with the rote you are told by "trusted" Holocaust sources. Remember it is GASOLINE engines nowadays, NOT diesel engines, Balmoral. Now run along and play with the bobbling things in your crib.

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Balmoral95 » Thu Sep 28, 2017 2:23 am

Putting words in my mouth again. Who said anything about petroleum products? Keep digging, cont.

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Sep 28, 2017 3:06 am

blake121666 wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
blake121666 wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:>"That is what is being done nowadays."

Where exactly?


This is what Rudolf has been saying for many years. I think it is this video calling for this to be done:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vi1AtKtPrXM

The general idea is that a large enough concentration will not reach each and every part of the space within the room where this procedure is done in a suitable timeframe to ensure the death of each person in the room.

So this is one of the current scientific bases for denial of homicidal Zyklon gassings at Auschwitz Kremas.

The initial dosage would have to scale as the cube root of the volume of the room. And the evaporation rate would depend on the temperature. So run some tests with rats in different volumes and at different temperatures with different initial dosages of Zyklon (or equivalent) and see how long it would take for the rats to die. Rudolf suspects that the dosages required are at least an order of magnitude higher than alleged.

EDIT: It took me multiple edits to figure out exactly how youtube videos can be embedded on this board.



Why do all denier videos start with whining about how many countries have HD laws?

I'm all for Rudolf gassing himself in a makeshift gas chamber, I find the irony of Rudolf dying in such a fashion hysterical. However, I can see the liability both ethically and legally of such an act.

I do find the denier obsession over the range of times it took for the victims to die perplexing. What difference does it really make? There are too many variables to calculate, primarily because AFAIK we don't have an agreement over how much ZB was used for each gassing operation. I don't remember seeing anywhere where the Germans actually measured the amounts used to eliminate the victims sealed inside of the gas chambers, we only have estimates. Other issues I can think of include the fluctuating numbers of victims, the varied temperatures of the rooms, the purity of each batch of ZB, etc. We also need to consider the emotional state of each observer, people under stress measure time differently.


The video is Reynouard, not Rudolf.

Does Jeffk know what an order of magnitude is? 10x, Jeff. A statement that all persons died in the chamber in 15 minutes turns into: all persons died in the chamber in 150 minutes. 2.5 hours versus 15 minutes. There's a bit more difference in that than you seem to be making out, isn't there?


Yes, I do, Blake.

But, considering the variables I listed, plus the fact you have 1,000-2,000 crammed into an air tight room you have multiple factors to consider, Blake. You do understand that not only do we have cyanide filling the room but you have the depletion of oxygen to consider. You do understand that people need oxygen to survive, right? So, you have a toxin filling the room while the level of oxygen decreases.

Kinda hard to see how people could survive for long, Blake. But, I'm happy to put this to the test. You can gather the RODOH crew together, plus Reynourd and Rudolf, lock yourselves in a room and let your freak flags fly. Stay in there for an hour or so. If the lot of you survive I'll be happy to convert to being a denier.

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Sep 28, 2017 3:08 am

blake121666 wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:
blake121666 wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:
blake121666 wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:>"That is what is being done nowadays."

Where exactly?


This is what Rudolf has been saying for many years. I think it is this video calling for this to be done:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vi1AtKtPrXM

The general idea is that a large enough concentration will not reach each and every part of the space within the room where this procedure is done in a suitable timeframe to ensure the death of each person in the room.

So this is one of the current scientific bases for denial of homicidal Zyklon gassings at Auschwitz Kremas.

The initial dosage would have to scale as the cube root of the volume of the room. And the evaporation rate would depend on the temperature. So run some tests with rats in different volumes and at different temperatures with different initial dosages of Zyklon (or equivalent) and see how long it would take for the rats to die. Rudolf suspects that the dosages required are at least an order of magnitude higher than alleged.

EDIT: I see that the video shows for me but not for others ... must be because I commented on it. The video was called: "The ultimate Holocaust Gas Chamber Challenge". It might be available elsewhere. Aaron Richards, who I think posts here, knows of this video. He and I posted a couple comments back and forth.


All of which has nothing to do with my question. :lol:


Then you didn't understand what you were questioning. I was saying that Revisionists nowadays are stating Rudolf's arguments against the dosages claimed for the alleged gassings. "That is what is being done nowadays." Do you get it now, chuckles?

EDIT: I figured out how to embed that video. BTW, the person in that vid is sacrificing his life with this video. The question is not IF he were to die, it is WHEN. He most likely would die in this experiment he suggests, it might not happen until the next day, though. At the least he would experience a condition requiring medical aid!


I knew I shouldn't have bothered in the first place.


Quite right. Remember that the next time you go off on your own with any thoughts. Just stick with the rote you are told by "trusted" Holocaust sources. Remember it is GASOLINE engines nowadays, NOT diesel engines, Balmoral. Now run along and play with the bobbling things in your crib.


That's cute, Blake. I noticed that you aren't really interested in talking about the ARC. I did give you a chance...

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Denying-History » Thu Sep 28, 2017 3:36 am

blake121666 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:I get what you meant, you want to look at dosage for the individual to die which in my opinion is irrelevant at concentrations that were mentioned above.

Yet when discussing Pressac that's irrelevant to the room concentration estimate he released.

Mind though this is all relative. Take for example that 500 cu m, is the area of L1 of K2. Alstine Simulated the concentration by assuming 1kg is equal to 2 g cu m. The same formula that Pressac used to reach 12 g/m3 with Hoess's estimate of 5-7 kg of zyklon-b.

Regardless I'll pass on playing the dosage game though.


I think you're a little confused in the terminology being used here. There are 2 "dosages" being referenced here:

1. The amount of Zyklon used for a mass gassing = the dosage for that gassing
2. The amount of HCN that a person inhales is the dose to kill that person.

The alleged gassing is:

1. Zyklon is exposed at areas in a room
2. HCN evaporates off the Zyklon pellets - relatively slowly w.r.t. its diffusion through the air
3. That evaporated HCN diffuses throughout the room - creating increasing concentrations
4. Persons within the room inhale the concentration in the area that person is in.

In US execution gas chambers the scenario is:

1. HCN is generated in a pot under the person to be executed
2. It quickly diffuses out from this pot - its concentration rapidly decreasing from the source.

This execution procedure of filling an entire room with HCN gas for ONE PERSON to inhale a teeny tiny bit of that gas is a bit silly. One should just put a mask on the person with a tube leading to bottled gas. The executioner would then turn the valve on the gas and whenever the executee inhales, he would be sure to inhale a lethal amount because that is all he would be ABLE to inhale. But nevertheless, this is what is done. And from this we see that it takes an average of 10 minutes for executees to die in this procedure. One could analyze the reason for that as being pertinent to the alleged Zyklon gassings. That is what is being done nowadays.

What dosage the alleged Zyklon gassings would require is thought to be much higher from the Revisionist perspective. Scaled tests should be done with rats to see if that is the case. I don't see why Germar Rudolf does not do these tests. They wouldn't be very difficult to do - nor that expensive.


I have told you my position before blake and it seemed you missed the point. I was trying to quickly address the point about "dosage for the individual to die". Behind mentioning amount listed by Hoess I thought you might get the point that the amount of HCN in the air would have killed the people within a reasonable period for the Holocaust to have happened. You said that: "Pressac never anywhere in his book considered the diffusion of the gas." My point was that Alstine attempted to simulate it by using a figure of 1 kg equaling 2 g cu m. It shows you where Pressac got his figure.

Most of your understanding seems to be in that US gas chambers, which as you point out use different operations, and they ARE NOT a good comparison as Germar insists. Considering that US gas chambers don't consider the victim/criminal dead until their heart stops. And doing the experiment is worthless when it can be considered that concentrations in the gas chamber reached limits of 3.31 g/m3 or 3.88 g/m3 (about 2760 ppm to 3230 ppm). As you said yourself 1-minute LC50 of HCN is 2000 ppm which used to be 3200 ppm... Try to consider that within Roberto's own calculations.

He may not be doing such experiments from my speculation for two reasons. It might be against the law to do such experiments outside the privileged sectors, and it might also be that he doesn't have the resources to replicate the process correctly.
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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Balmoral95 » Thu Sep 28, 2017 4:17 am

This crap has been gone on for eons. Last gas chamber execution in US was 1999. What's the new revisionist position on that "nowadays", eh , your douchebag gurus still peddling shite? You pissant little {!#%@}.

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Sep 28, 2017 12:48 pm

Balmoral95 wrote:This crap has been gone on for eons. Last gas chamber execution in US was 1999. What's the new revisionist position on that "nowadays", eh , your douchebag gurus still peddling shite? You pissant little {!#%@}.

Parodie thread - with blake12284107-5tpi56p6 as Luigi and Carmine all rolled into one? His faux seriousness is such a kick!
Nazism conspired to create a sense of festival time. . . . Tragically for humanity, the party generating it was the type not associated with the coloured costumes of the Brazilian Carnival, but with the brown-shirted thuggery of the NSDAP. The contrast between the dance and the march, between the samba and the strains of the Horst Wessel Lied, points to the gulf separating a life-asserting community from a community which exists only by creating a demonized other. - RG '97

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby blake121666 » Thu Sep 28, 2017 4:34 pm

Denying-History wrote:
blake121666 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:I get what you meant, you want to look at dosage for the individual to die which in my opinion is irrelevant at concentrations that were mentioned above.

Yet when discussing Pressac that's irrelevant to the room concentration estimate he released.

Mind though this is all relative. Take for example that 500 cu m, is the area of L1 of K2. Alstine Simulated the concentration by assuming 1kg is equal to 2 g cu m. The same formula that Pressac used to reach 12 g/m3 with Hoess's estimate of 5-7 kg of zyklon-b.

Regardless I'll pass on playing the dosage game though.


I think you're a little confused in the terminology being used here. There are 2 "dosages" being referenced here:

1. The amount of Zyklon used for a mass gassing = the dosage for that gassing
2. The amount of HCN that a person inhales is the dose to kill that person.

The alleged gassing is:

1. Zyklon is exposed at areas in a room
2. HCN evaporates off the Zyklon pellets - relatively slowly w.r.t. its diffusion through the air
3. That evaporated HCN diffuses throughout the room - creating increasing concentrations
4. Persons within the room inhale the concentration in the area that person is in.

In US execution gas chambers the scenario is:

1. HCN is generated in a pot under the person to be executed
2. It quickly diffuses out from this pot - its concentration rapidly decreasing from the source.

This execution procedure of filling an entire room with HCN gas for ONE PERSON to inhale a teeny tiny bit of that gas is a bit silly. One should just put a mask on the person with a tube leading to bottled gas. The executioner would then turn the valve on the gas and whenever the executee inhales, he would be sure to inhale a lethal amount because that is all he would be ABLE to inhale. But nevertheless, this is what is done. And from this we see that it takes an average of 10 minutes for executees to die in this procedure. One could analyze the reason for that as being pertinent to the alleged Zyklon gassings. That is what is being done nowadays.

What dosage the alleged Zyklon gassings would require is thought to be much higher from the Revisionist perspective. Scaled tests should be done with rats to see if that is the case. I don't see why Germar Rudolf does not do these tests. They wouldn't be very difficult to do - nor that expensive.


I have told you my position before blake and it seemed you missed the point. I was trying to quickly address the point about "dosage for the individual to die". Behind mentioning amount listed by Hoess I thought you might get the point that the amount of HCN in the air would have killed the people within a reasonable period for the Holocaust to have happened. You said that: "Pressac never anywhere in his book considered the diffusion of the gas." My point was that Alstine attempted to simulate it by using a figure of 1 kg equaling 2 g cu m. It shows you where Pressac got his figure.

Most of your understanding seems to be in that US gas chambers, which as you point out use different operations, and they ARE NOT a good comparison as Germar insists. Considering that US gas chambers don't consider the victim/criminal dead until their heart stops. And doing the experiment is worthless when it can be considered that concentrations in the gas chamber reached limits of 3.31 g/m3 or 3.88 g/m3 (about 2760 ppm to 3230 ppm). As you said yourself 1-minute LC50 of HCN is 2000 ppm which used to be 3200 ppm... Try to consider that within Roberto's own calculations.

He may not be doing such experiments from my speculation for two reasons. It might be against the law to do such experiments outside the privileged sectors, and it might also be that he doesn't have the resources to replicate the process correctly.


What are you talking about with "Most of your understanding seems to be in that US gas chambers"? Within the quote is my telling you the differences between Zyklon and US gas chambers.

The HCN has to evaporate off the Zyklon substrate and then diffuse out - so the concentration build-up is slow. Rudolf thinks it is too slow to build up to the concentration needed to kill all in a reasonable timeframe.

You are throwing around numbers willy nilly. What do you mean "Alstine attempted to simulate it by using a figure of 1 kg equaling 2 g cu m"? That doesn't make any sense without specifying a volume, temperature, and time. This has all been gone over ad nauseam, but the evaporation rate per temperature is:



red = 1 hour
green = 1/2 hour
blue = 15 minutes

So the percentage of the initial dosage that has outgassed (evaporated off) is the abscissa on the temperature curve corresponding to the time. For instance it looks to be about 25% after 15 minutes at 15C. Let's just use that. Then with an initial dosage of 1 kg, 250 g has outgassed in 15 minutes. If you are saying that the average concentration at that time is 2 g/m^3, then you are saying the volume of the room is 125 m^3. The concentration at any point in the room could be anything though. Depending on the exact diffusion rate, the concentration would be more closer to the Zyklon source and less farther away. If the ventilation were on during this time, then a more uniform distribution might have been reached (that is Berg's contention). But we don't have that being the case - so we probably have a slower concentration buildup farther from the sources (we have a slower evaporation rate as well - since the source isn't heated).

What does what you are saying have to do with this simple math here? Saying "Alstine attempted to simulate it by using a figure of 1 kg equaling 2 g cu m" doesn't really say anything. Do you get this simple chemistry here?

So we more or less know this part of it. Then there is the question of what will ensure the death of an arbitrary person. Breathing in what concentration for how long will ensure death? The US gas execution chambers give a little bit of data for that, one can infer. People appear to last 10 times longer than estimated in the US execution gas chambers.

Actual tests need to be done to nail down what one can reasonably assume about these questions. On things like this, reality can be significantly different than models (such as with the US execution gas chambers). The models most likely favor Rudolf's view though.

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:32 pm

Well, I'm convinced. People don't really need to breathe and ZB isn't dangerous.

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Balmoral95 » Fri Sep 29, 2017 2:04 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:Well, I'm convinced. People don't really need to breathe and ZB isn't dangerous.


That's very Bergundian of you. Berg likes that breath-holding stuff.

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Balmoral95 » Fri Sep 29, 2017 2:08 am

blake121666 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
blake121666 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:I get what you meant, you want to look at dosage for the individual to die which in my opinion is irrelevant at concentrations that were mentioned above.

Yet when discussing Pressac that's irrelevant to the room concentration estimate he released.

Mind though this is all relative. Take for example that 500 cu m, is the area of L1 of K2. Alstine Simulated the concentration by assuming 1kg is equal to 2 g cu m. The same formula that Pressac used to reach 12 g/m3 with Hoess's estimate of 5-7 kg of zyklon-b.

Regardless I'll pass on playing the dosage game though.


I think you're a little confused in the terminology being used here. There are 2 "dosages" being referenced here:

1. The amount of Zyklon used for a mass gassing = the dosage for that gassing
2. The amount of HCN that a person inhales is the dose to kill that person.

The alleged gassing is:

1. Zyklon is exposed at areas in a room
2. HCN evaporates off the Zyklon pellets - relatively slowly w.r.t. its diffusion through the air
3. That evaporated HCN diffuses throughout the room - creating increasing concentrations
4. Persons within the room inhale the concentration in the area that person is in.

In US execution gas chambers the scenario is:

1. HCN is generated in a pot under the person to be executed
2. It quickly diffuses out from this pot - its concentration rapidly decreasing from the source.

This execution procedure of filling an entire room with HCN gas for ONE PERSON to inhale a teeny tiny bit of that gas is a bit silly. One should just put a mask on the person with a tube leading to bottled gas. The executioner would then turn the valve on the gas and whenever the executee inhales, he would be sure to inhale a lethal amount because that is all he would be ABLE to inhale. But nevertheless, this is what is done. And from this we see that it takes an average of 10 minutes for executees to die in this procedure. One could analyze the reason for that as being pertinent to the alleged Zyklon gassings. That is what is being done nowadays.

What dosage the alleged Zyklon gassings would require is thought to be much higher from the Revisionist perspective. Scaled tests should be done with rats to see if that is the case. I don't see why Germar Rudolf does not do these tests. They wouldn't be very difficult to do - nor that expensive.


I have told you my position before blake and it seemed you missed the point. I was trying to quickly address the point about "dosage for the individual to die". Behind mentioning amount listed by Hoess I thought you might get the point that the amount of HCN in the air would have killed the people within a reasonable period for the Holocaust to have happened. You said that: "Pressac never anywhere in his book considered the diffusion of the gas." My point was that Alstine attempted to simulate it by using a figure of 1 kg equaling 2 g cu m. It shows you where Pressac got his figure.

Most of your understanding seems to be in that US gas chambers, which as you point out use different operations, and they ARE NOT a good comparison as Germar insists. Considering that US gas chambers don't consider the victim/criminal dead until their heart stops. And doing the experiment is worthless when it can be considered that concentrations in the gas chamber reached limits of 3.31 g/m3 or 3.88 g/m3 (about 2760 ppm to 3230 ppm). As you said yourself 1-minute LC50 of HCN is 2000 ppm which used to be 3200 ppm... Try to consider that within Roberto's own calculations.

He may not be doing such experiments from my speculation for two reasons. It might be against the law to do such experiments outside the privileged sectors, and it might also be that he doesn't have the resources to replicate the process correctly.


What are you talking about with "Most of your understanding seems to be in that US gas chambers"? Within the quote is my telling you the differences between Zyklon and US gas chambers.

The HCN has to evaporate off the Zyklon substrate and then diffuse out - so the concentration build-up is slow. Rudolf thinks it is too slow to build up to the concentration needed to kill all in a reasonable timeframe.

You are throwing around numbers willy nilly. What do you mean "Alstine attempted to simulate it by using a figure of 1 kg equaling 2 g cu m"? That doesn't make any sense without specifying a volume, temperature, and time. This has all been gone over ad nauseam, but the evaporation rate per temperature is:



red = 1 hour
green = 1/2 hour
blue = 15 minutes

So the percentage of the initial dosage that has outgassed (evaporated off) is the abscissa on the temperature curve corresponding to the time. For instance it looks to be about 25% after 15 minutes at 15C. Let's just use that. Then with an initial dosage of 1 kg, 250 g has outgassed in 15 minutes. If you are saying that the average concentration at that time is 2 g/m^3, then you are saying the volume of the room is 125 m^3. The concentration at any point in the room could be anything though. Depending on the exact diffusion rate, the concentration would be more closer to the Zyklon source and less farther away. If the ventilation were on during this time, then a more uniform distribution might have been reached (that is Berg's contention). But we don't have that being the case - so we probably have a slower concentration buildup farther from the sources (we have a slower evaporation rate as well - since the source isn't heated).

What does what you are saying have to do with this simple math here? Saying "Alstine attempted to simulate it by using a figure of 1 kg equaling 2 g cu m" doesn't really say anything. Do you get this simple chemistry here?

So we more or less know this part of it. Then there is the question of what will ensure the death of an arbitrary person. Breathing in what concentration for how long will ensure death? The US gas execution chambers give a little bit of data for that, one can infer. People appear to last 10 times longer than estimated in the US execution gas chambers.

Actual tests need to be done to nail down what one can reasonably assume about these questions. On things like this, reality can be significantly different than models (such as with the US execution gas chambers). The models most likely favor Rudolf's view though.


All this chimp slobber, is it going out as Rudolf-original or is it being published under one of his nyms with fraudulent academic credentials?

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Sep 29, 2017 2:12 am

Time for Luigi and Carmine. If they didn't write that shite.
Nazism conspired to create a sense of festival time. . . . Tragically for humanity, the party generating it was the type not associated with the coloured costumes of the Brazilian Carnival, but with the brown-shirted thuggery of the NSDAP. The contrast between the dance and the march, between the samba and the strains of the Horst Wessel Lied, points to the gulf separating a life-asserting community from a community which exists only by creating a demonized other. - RG '97

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Balmoral95 » Fri Sep 29, 2017 2:46 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Time for Luigi and Carmine. If they didn't write that shite.


These folk could pick an argument with an empty room... and, for the most part, they do.

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:04 am

Balmoral95 wrote:These folk could pick an argument with an empty room...

and lose the argument to the empty room . . .
Nazism conspired to create a sense of festival time. . . . Tragically for humanity, the party generating it was the type not associated with the coloured costumes of the Brazilian Carnival, but with the brown-shirted thuggery of the NSDAP. The contrast between the dance and the march, between the samba and the strains of the Horst Wessel Lied, points to the gulf separating a life-asserting community from a community which exists only by creating a demonized other. - RG '97

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby blake121666 » Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:18 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Time for Luigi and Carmine. If they didn't write that shite.


They're busy saving damsels from Donkey Kong.

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Denying-History » Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:29 am

I swear blake, we have already been over this...

blake121666 wrote:What are you talking about with "Most of your understanding seems to be in that US gas chambers"? Within the quote is my telling you the differences between Zyklon and US gas chambers.


This execution procedure of filling an entire room with HCN gas for ONE PERSON to inhale a teeny tiny bit of that gas is a bit silly. One should just put a mask on the person with a tube leading to bottled gas. The executioner would then turn the valve on the gas and whenever the executee inhales, he would be sure to inhale a lethal amount because that is all he would be ABLE to inhale. But nevertheless, this is what is done. And from this we see that it takes an average of 10 minutes for executees to die in this procedure. One could analyze the reason for that as being pertinent to the alleged Zyklon gassings. That is what is being done nowadays.


This is what I mean, you outline the differences, yes... but then go on to say that people on average take 10 minutes to die in American gas chambers. No one is being "pertinent" about this, in fact we primarily reject similar analysis or the using of American Gas chambers to discover any relevant time. I told you this last time:

http://skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=559429#p559429

The only person I can think to propose such was Germar Rudolf who attempted to argue that a "healthy human can survive a 5 minute exposure to 1% of hydrogen cyanide." He gives no citation to support this claim and its mainly conjecture. I my own opinion atleast.

blake121666 wrote:The HCN has to evaporate off the Zyklon substrate and then diffuse out - so the concentration build-up is slow. Rudolf thinks it is too slow to build up to the concentration needed to kill all in a reasonable timeframe.

Great job, you stated something that no one here disputes, I however have offered reasoning that rejects such a claim. According to Roberto within the same timespan outlined by Richard Green the gas concentration inside of the "Morgue" could have been between "3.31 g/m3 or 3.88 g/m3" that is "10 to almost 12 times the lethal concentration".

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2012/06/reconstructing-message-to-jonnie.html

Mind this is at the acceptance of hotter temperatures which again count on many variables. It also includes the point around Krematorien II and III containing heating systems. As pelt point out in his report, "the gas chambers were either pre-heated with portable stoves or, in the case of crematoria 2 and 3, by warm air generated by the ovens." According to Zimmerman a new heating system was installed in June 1943. So your next part on Temperature is worthless banter, even when considered that Human body heat itself is above Zyklon-b's boiling point, which Pressac believes is hot enough to alter the temperature to around 30 degrees Celsius.

blake121666 wrote:You are throwing around numbers willy nilly. What do you mean "Alstine attempted to simulate it by using a figure of 1 kg equaling 2 g cu m"? That doesn't make any sense without specifying a volume, temperature, and time. This has all been gone over ad nauseam, but the evaporation rate per temperature is:.


That's because it doesn't calculate for time... I though you have read Greens essay, but It doesn't seem you have looked at his footnotes very well. I was pointing out what math I believe Pressac calculated for his figure. It has no context outside of this.

blake121666 wrote:So we more or less know this part of it. Then there is the question of what will ensure the death of an arbitrary person. Breathing in what concentration for how long will ensure death? The US gas execution chambers give a little bit of data for that, one can infer. People appear to last 10 times longer than estimated in the US execution gas chambers.

Actual tests need to be done to nail down what one can reasonably assume about these questions. On things like this, reality can be significantly different than models (such as with the US execution gas chambers). The models most likely favor Rudolf's view though.


As I have mentioned at the concentrations calculated by Roberto/Green/Pressac, regardless of methods, I think that its quite clear that at 15 degrees Celsius those inside the chambers would be exposed to limits of 450-1810 ppmv... Considering multiple factors this is a conservative figure and that the chambers concentration according to Roberto is between 3.31 g/m3 or 3.88 g/m3. I think at the consideration of Roberto's figures this issue is irrelevant.
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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby blake121666 » Fri Sep 29, 2017 5:01 am

Denying-History wrote:I swear blake, we have already been over this...

blake121666 wrote:What are you talking about with "Most of your understanding seems to be in that US gas chambers"? Within the quote is my telling you the differences between Zyklon and US gas chambers.


This execution procedure of filling an entire room with HCN gas for ONE PERSON to inhale a teeny tiny bit of that gas is a bit silly. One should just put a mask on the person with a tube leading to bottled gas. The executioner would then turn the valve on the gas and whenever the executee inhales, he would be sure to inhale a lethal amount because that is all he would be ABLE to inhale. But nevertheless, this is what is done. And from this we see that it takes an average of 10 minutes for executees to die in this procedure. One could analyze the reason for that as being pertinent to the alleged Zyklon gassings. That is what is being done nowadays.


This is what I mean, you outline the differences, yes... but then go on to say that people on average take 10 minutes to die in American gas chambers. No one is being "pertinent" about this, in fact we primarily reject similar analysis or the using of American Gas chambers to discover any relevant time. I told you this last time:

http://skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=559429#p559429

The only person I can think to propose such was Germar Rudolf who attempted to argue that a "healthy human can survive a 5 minute exposure to 1% of hydrogen cyanide." He gives no citation to support this claim and its mainly conjecture. I my own opinion atleast.

Well the US gas executions have a person sitting directly above a pot that has 163 grams of HCN gas wafting out from it (about half of the 25 13-gram cyanide "eggs" - the other half stays in solution). So how much do you figure that person breathes in? What do YOU think the concentration of that environment in front of that person's mouth and nostrils is? Does that HCN cloud somehow slip past that person and come back around ten minutes later? How is a person surviving being enveloped by a hugely concentrated HCN gas cloud for many minutes and not dying not pertinent? What makes you think that cloud is diluted below 1%? Does it diffuse so quickly that it is instantly everywhere uniform throughout the room? That is what you are saying.
Denying-History wrote:
blake121666 wrote:The HCN has to evaporate off the Zyklon substrate and then diffuse out - so the concentration build-up is slow. Rudolf thinks it is too slow to build up to the concentration needed to kill all in a reasonable timeframe.

Great job, you stated something that no one here disputes, I however have offered reasoning that rejects such a claim. According to Roberto within the same timespan outlined by Richard Green the gas concentration inside of the "Morgue" could have been between "3.31 g/m3 or 3.88 g/m3" that is "10 to almost 12 times the lethal concentration".

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2012/06/reconstructing-message-to-jonnie.html

Mind this is at the acceptance of hotter temperatures which again count on many variables. It also includes the point around Krematorien II and III containing heating systems. As pelt point out in his report, "the gas chambers were either pre-heated with portable stoves or, in the case of crematoria 2 and 3, by warm air generated by the ovens." According to Zimmerman a new heating system was installed in June 1943. So your next part on Temperature is worthless banter, even when considered that Human body heat itself is above Zyklon-b's boiling point, which Pressac believes is hot enough to alter the temperature to around 30 degrees Celsius.

Are you aware that even at boiling point the evaporation isn't that quick? Take a look at those curves. You are speculating that the evaporation rate at 20C is 20 times what it is at 15C! Are you imagining that the evaporation at boiling point is a vertical line or something? It seems to me that you are. You are quite wrong. Soak some gypsum or something in water and heat it at water's boiling point and see how long it takes for 70% to evaporate off. It'd take longer than 5 minutes! I've tested that with: vermiculite, perlite, and peat moss. You don't get the evaporation rates you imagine - not even close. At 20C the curve would be slightly more vertical than at 15C - as is also the case even at boiling point (26C).
Denying-History wrote:
blake121666 wrote:You are throwing around numbers willy nilly. What do you mean "Alstine attempted to simulate it by using a figure of 1 kg equaling 2 g cu m"? That doesn't make any sense without specifying a volume, temperature, and time. This has all been gone over ad nauseam, but the evaporation rate per temperature is:.


That's because it doesn't calculate for time... I though you have read Greens essay, but It doesn't seem you have looked at his footnotes very well. I was pointing out what math I believe Pressac calculated for his figure. It has no context outside of this.

I read Green's essays a long time ago. Green doesn't know what he is talking about on these particular matters. What are YOU talking about? I dont think you can even say.
Denying-History wrote:
blake121666 wrote:So we more or less know this part of it. Then there is the question of what will ensure the death of an arbitrary person. Breathing in what concentration for how long will ensure death? The US gas execution chambers give a little bit of data for that, one can infer. People appear to last 10 times longer than estimated in the US execution gas chambers.

Actual tests need to be done to nail down what one can reasonably assume about these questions. On things like this, reality can be significantly different than models (such as with the US execution gas chambers). The models most likely favor Rudolf's view though.


As I have mentioned at the concentrations calculated by Roberto/Green/Pressac, regardless of methods, I think that its quite clear that at 15 degrees Celsius those inside the chambers would be exposed to limits of 450-1810 ppmv... Considering multiple factors this is a conservative figure and that the chambers concentration according to Roberto is between 3.31 g/m3 or 3.88 g/m3. I think at the consideration of Roberto's figures this issue is irrelevant.


Just do damned tests with rats for crying out loud! None of what you are saying has ANY BASIS WHATSOEVER in anything empirical. You don't reference a damned thing that has any physical reality to it. You are waving numbers around with absolutely no bases.

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Denying-History » Fri Sep 29, 2017 6:33 am

blake121666 wrote:Well the US gas executions have a person sitting directly above a pot that has 163 grams of HCN gas wafting out from it (about half of the 25 13-gram cyanide "eggs" - the other half stays in solution). So how much do you figure that person breathes in? What do YOU think the concentration of that environment in front of that person's mouth and nostrils is? Does that HCN cloud somehow slip past that person and come back around ten minutes later? How is a person surviving being enveloped by a hugely concentrated HCN gas cloud for many minutes and not dying not pertinent? What makes you think that cloud is diluted below 1%? Does it diffuse so quickly that it is instantly everywhere uniform throughout the room? That is what you are saying.


Blake, I honestly don't care. You even made the point that they are not comparable operation wise, the only component you are missing is that you are not declared dead in an American gas chamber until the victims heart stops... Breathing can stop before cardiac arrest. During the ventilation period (times very) but according to Van Pelt it would have lasted between 30 to 40 minutes, which during this period those inside the chamber would still be exposed to lethal levels of cyanide. I think personally this only further complicates issues. I'll avoid commenting on your pointless questions.

blake121666 wrote:Are you aware that even at boiling point the evaporation isn't that quick? Take a look at those curves. You are speculating that the evaporation rate at 20C is 20 times what it is at 15C! Are you imagining that the evaporation at boiling point is a vertical line or something? It seems to me that you are. You are quite wrong. Soak some gypsum or something in water and heat it at water's boiling point and see how long it takes for 70% to evaporate off. It'd take longer than 5 minutes! I've tested that with: vermiculite, perlite, and peat moss. You don't get the evaporation rates you imagine - not even close. At 20C the curve would be slightly more vertical than at 15C - as is also the case even at boiling point (26C).


Read what Roberto wrote again...

At a temperature of 20 centigrade, evaporation would have occurred much faster, according to a monograph published in 1933 by Gerhard Peters of the Degesh company...wrote that the poison began to evaporate "with great vehemence" as soon as the tins were poured out, and that "the greatest part, nearly all" of the Zyklon B evaporated within 30 minutes at an ambient temperature of 20 centigrade...this means that roughly one-sixth of the substance would have evaporated after five minutes, making for a concentration of 1.98 g/m or 2.33 g/m - 6 or 7 times the lethal concentration.

If an increase in temperature from 15 C to 20 C, still somewhat below the boiling point of hydrogen cyanide, cut the evaporation time and accordingly increased the gas concentration after 5 minutes evaporation by almost 70 %, it seems reasonable to assume that, at a far higher temperature well above the boiling point, the concentration after 5 minutes would be higher by at least the same factor - 3.31 g/m3 or 3,88 g/m3, 10 to almost 12 times the lethal concentration.

This, in turn, would correspond to roughly 28 % of the concentration after full out-gassing (11.9 g/m3 or 13.95 g/m3), or roughly 1.7 kg of evaporated Zyklon B.

This would mean that, at a temperature of 15 C, the concentration of Zyklon B in the gas chamber would after 5 minutes have reached 1.19 g/m3 or 1.395 g/m3, depending on whether it is referred to the gas chamber's total volume or to the free volume calculated by Rudolf - 3.6 to 4.2 times the lethal concentration...


I read Green's essays a long time ago. Green doesn't know what he is talking about on these particular matters. What are YOU talking about? I dont think you can even say.


What the {!#%@} are you talking about? The issue has nothing to do with green...

Just do damned tests with rats for crying out loud! None of what you are saying has ANY BASIS WHATSOEVER in anything empirical. You don't reference a damned thing that has any physical reality to it. You are waving numbers around with absolutely no bases.


Blake, NO ONE HERE CARES. Instead of asking us to buy a product that releases cyanide, why not do it youself? You were the one who stated Germar hasn't done this, I gave you possible reasons why. Just become the hero of revisionism and build a small gas chamber at a temperature "WELL ABOVE THE BOILING POINT" and test it for yourself if the gas concentration is at the limits specified by Roberto. Otherwise your wasting peoples {!#%@} time.
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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby blake121666 » Fri Sep 29, 2017 8:13 pm

"Well above boiling point"?

Why don't you start from scratch and tell me what it is you are saying - in your own words w/o confusing whatever it is you think other links are saying?

Just lay out what you are saying in simple language. That is what I have been doing.

With this "well above boiling point" statement you are now saying that an alleged gassing had the room well above boiling point. Before you were saying something like 20C, weren't you?

Please just give your run of events of a typical gassing. Here is mine:

1. Zyklon is exposed and starts outgassing according to the evaporation rate curves I showed you. Pick a temperature and we'll work with that.
2. As the Zyklon outgasses, the concentration of HCN in the air gets greater and greater. What is the concentration at the far reaches from any Zyklon source after M minutes?
3. What concentration for how long would ENSURE a lethal dose to a random person at those farthest distances from the sources? This lethal dose has to ensure that the person is dead within a reasonable amount of time. Your "reasonable amount of time" that you are saying is what now? An hour? I don't think anyone other than you has been claiming such? If you are claiming it is an hour, then I'm inclined to say I agree with you. I don't see the narrative as being 1-hour gassings though.

I don't think anyone other than you on this board is interested in these details and that is why I have not brought up the specifics. Over the weekend I'll give my answers to these 3 questions with my reasoning backed by empirical evidence for my answers.

But my whole point from the start, and now, is that actual tests are the only thing to PROVE such things as these to anyone's satisfaction. So I'll outline what tests would be necessary to satisfy this particular Revisionist argument.

This new twist that you are throwing out that persons weren't even dead when the ventilation was turned on is the first I've ever heard of it. Why wasn't the ventilation turned on DURING the gassing, then? One would think that would have helped - giving a quicker distribution of the concentration? Why wouldn't this have been done? Such was done for delousing machines: Zyklon was heated for quick evaporation (but not as quickly as you are saying) and a blower distributed this outgassed HCN. It's not as if Germans didn't know these simple principles which they used for delousing? So you are saying that instead of doing things in this delousing way - which would probably take about 15 minutes or so - they instead took an hour to do it in your haphazard way.

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Sep 29, 2017 8:54 pm

blake121666 wrote:"Well above boiling point"?

Why don't you start from scratch and tell me what it is you are saying - in your own words w/o confusing whatever it is you think other links are saying?

Just lay out what you are saying in simple language. That is what I have been doing.

With this "well above boiling point" statement you are now saying that an alleged gassing had the room well above boiling point. Before you were saying something like 20C, weren't you?

Please just give your run of events of a typical gassing. Here is mine:

1. Zyklon is exposed and starts outgassing according to the evaporation rate curves I showed you. Pick a temperature and we'll work with that.
2. As the Zyklon outgasses, the concentration of HCN in the air gets greater and greater. What is the concentration at the far reaches from any Zyklon source after M minutes?
3. What concentration for how long would ENSURE a lethal dose to a random person at those farthest distances from the sources? This lethal dose has to ensure that the person is dead within a reasonable amount of time. Your "reasonable amount of time" that you are saying is what now? An hour? I don't think anyone other than you has been claiming such? If you are claiming it is an hour, then I'm inclined to say I agree with you. I don't see the narrative as being 1-hour gassings though.

I don't think anyone other than you on this board is interested in these details and that is why I have not brought up the specifics. Over the weekend I'll give my answers to these 3 questions with my reasoning backed by empirical evidence for my answers.

But my whole point from the start, and now, is that actual tests are the only thing to PROVE such things as these to anyone's satisfaction. So I'll outline what tests would be necessary to satisfy this particular Revisionist argument.

This new twist that you are throwing out that persons weren't even dead when the ventilation was turned on is the first I've ever heard of it. Why wasn't the ventilation turned on DURING the gassing, then? One would think that would have helped - giving a quicker distribution of the concentration? Why wouldn't this have been done? Such was done for delousing machines: Zyklon was heated for quick evaporation (but not as quickly as you are saying) and a blower distributed this outgassed HCN. It's not as if Germans didn't know these simple principles which they used for delousing? So you are saying that instead of doing things in this delousing way - which would probably take about 15 minutes or so - they instead took an hour to do it in your haphazard way.


I don't mind discussing this, blake.

So, does Rudolf account for the fact that we actually have multiple sources of cyanide? II &III used four ZB introduction columns to insure the even distribution of gas.

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Denying-History » Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:24 pm

Lets keep this simple as you have recommended:

What I advance is at 15 degrees 10% of the gas evaporates over a period of 5 to 15 minutes, which according to Roberto is a concentration of 990 to 1160 ppmv. This is well above the Lethal concentration considered by health organizations. And is within the lethal LC50 given by your rats paper:

The LC50s of rats in that test were:

774 ppm for 5 minutes
523 ppm for 15 minutes
423 ppm for 30 minutes

http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=559301#p559301

Meaning those inside the chamber were exposed to deadly/unhealthy levels of Zyklon-b for at least the first 10 minutes of the ventilation of 1000ppm. While if we accept Pressac's concentrations (1%) they would have been exposed to deadly concentrations of 1,908 ppm throughout the room after ten minutes. (See Case for Auschwitz 366)

The point above is that these levels are sufficient, regardless of your issue with LC50. Roberto's math calculates that at 20 degrees Celsius the concentration in the room after the 5 to 15 minute mark (which he specifies as 5 minutes) would be between 1,650 to 1940 ppmv. He then suggests that at temperatures above 25.7 degrees Celsius would have a concentration between 2760 ppm to 3230 ppmv. That is all that has been advanced.

I have expressed my issue on tests already, they are worthless. I don't have the resources to do such testing and measure it, and I am not buying such a compound as Zyklon-B to test its release in a confined space on animals during a period of hot weather to simulate a temperature above boiling point.

Also no one suggested that "persons weren't even dead when the ventilation was turned"... Only that those who had reached the "passed out phase" in the room were still exposed to the gas during the ventilation.
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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby blake121666 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 10:04 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
blake121666 wrote:"Well above boiling point"?

Why don't you start from scratch and tell me what it is you are saying - in your own words w/o confusing whatever it is you think other links are saying?

Just lay out what you are saying in simple language. That is what I have been doing.

With this "well above boiling point" statement you are now saying that an alleged gassing had the room well above boiling point. Before you were saying something like 20C, weren't you?

Please just give your run of events of a typical gassing. Here is mine:

1. Zyklon is exposed and starts outgassing according to the evaporation rate curves I showed you. Pick a temperature and we'll work with that.
2. As the Zyklon outgasses, the concentration of HCN in the air gets greater and greater. What is the concentration at the far reaches from any Zyklon source after M minutes?
3. What concentration for how long would ENSURE a lethal dose to a random person at those farthest distances from the sources? This lethal dose has to ensure that the person is dead within a reasonable amount of time. Your "reasonable amount of time" that you are saying is what now? An hour? I don't think anyone other than you has been claiming such? If you are claiming it is an hour, then I'm inclined to say I agree with you. I don't see the narrative as being 1-hour gassings though.

I don't think anyone other than you on this board is interested in these details and that is why I have not brought up the specifics. Over the weekend I'll give my answers to these 3 questions with my reasoning backed by empirical evidence for my answers.

But my whole point from the start, and now, is that actual tests are the only thing to PROVE such things as these to anyone's satisfaction. So I'll outline what tests would be necessary to satisfy this particular Revisionist argument.

This new twist that you are throwing out that persons weren't even dead when the ventilation was turned on is the first I've ever heard of it. Why wasn't the ventilation turned on DURING the gassing, then? One would think that would have helped - giving a quicker distribution of the concentration? Why wouldn't this have been done? Such was done for delousing machines: Zyklon was heated for quick evaporation (but not as quickly as you are saying) and a blower distributed this outgassed HCN. It's not as if Germans didn't know these simple principles which they used for delousing? So you are saying that instead of doing things in this delousing way - which would probably take about 15 minutes or so - they instead took an hour to do it in your haphazard way.


I don't mind discussing this, blake.

So, does Rudolf account for the fact that we actually have multiple sources of cyanide? II &III used four ZB introduction columns to insure the even distribution of gas.


I'm sure Rudolf is aware of multiple sources of Zyklon. I don;t recall him actually calculating such off the top of my head though. I haven't read Rudolf in quite a while on these matters.

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby blake121666 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 10:55 pm

Denying-History wrote:Lets keep this simple as you have recommended:

What I advance is at 15 degrees 10% of the gas evaporates over a period of 5 to 15 minutes, which according to Roberto is a concentration of 990 to 1160 ppmv. This is well above the Lethal concentration considered by health organizations. And is within the lethal LC50 given by your rats paper:

The LC50s of rats in that test were:

774 ppm for 5 minutes
523 ppm for 15 minutes
423 ppm for 30 minutes

http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=559301#p559301

Meaning those inside the chamber were exposed to deadly/unhealthy levels of Zyklon-b for at least the first 10 minutes of the ventilation of 1000ppm. While if we accept Pressac's concentrations (1%) they would have been exposed to deadly concentrations of 1,908 ppm throughout the room after ten minutes. (See Case for Auschwitz 366)

The point above is that these levels are sufficient, regardless of your issue with LC50. Roberto's math calculates that at 20 degrees Celsius the concentration in the room after the 5 to 15 minute mark (which he specifies as 5 minutes) would be between 1,650 to 1940 ppmv. He then suggests that at temperatures above 25.7 degrees Celsius would have a concentration between 2760 ppm to 3230 ppmv. That is all that has been advanced.

I have expressed my issue on tests already, they are worthless. I don't have the resources to do such testing and measure it, and I am not buying such a compound as Zyklon-B to test its release in a confined space on animals during a period of hot weather to simulate a temperature above boiling point.

Also no one suggested that "persons weren't even dead when the ventilation was turned"... Only that those who had reached the "passed out phase" in the room were still exposed to the gas during the ventilation.


I don't understand why you keep referring to Roberto - particularly w/o giving me the exact link you are referencing. I gave you the scenario above. Show me your calculations.

I had other work-related things crop up and haven't been able to get around to this at this time. But I think K2 and K3 were each about 500 m^3.

HCN is only very slightly lighter than air and so one can do the ppm to mg/m^3 easily by assuming it to be the same and call the ppm the mg/m^3; but let's be formal and use this calculator and the fact that HCN has a molecular weight of 27.0253 g/mol:

https://www.lenntech.com/calculators/pp ... illion.htm

So from this site, your 990 ppm is 1180 mg/m^3 (19% higher than 990).

Even if one assumed a uniform distribution throughout the room of this 990 ppm (which would not be the case in your timeframes) in a 500 m^3 room, that would be (1180 mg/m^3) x 500 m^3 = 590,000 mg = 590 g. Since you are assuming this to be 10% of the initial dosage , you are saying that initial dosage was 5900 g = 5.9 kg.

So I don't know what you are referring to; but I figure you are probably reasoning along these lines. So what you are saying is that there would be an AVERAGE concentration of 990 ppm within this large room AFTER whatever timeframe you are talking about. You intentionally misinterpret this as "those inside the chamber were exposed to deadly/unhealthy levels of Zyklon-b for [this timeframe]" which is completely wrong. At the END of the timeframe the AVERAGE throughout the room would be what you are saying. Those near the pellets would experience increasing concentrations (always higher than the average here) - those at the far reaches from the Zyklon source could very well have had NO contact yet with any significant concentration of HCN (these areas would always be lower than the average).

And then you misinterpret my rat study reference - even though I explained it in the link you are misquoting. Those rats were given an atmosphere of the concentration listed for the time listed. About 50% died from this; but not necessarily in a reasonable amount of time. For alleged HGCs, you need ALL to be dead in a reasonable timeframe; and the concentration level would be increasing - not a constant concentration (which you keep seeing as the ending high concentration).

Using the faulty logic you are using here, tell me why the average time for persons in US gas executions is around 9 minutes (in this scenario the concentration starts out very large and decreases). In this case you have a dense 162.5 g HCN cloud diffusing past the person - which would settle down to 3200 ppm in about 10 minutes throughout the small chamber. One person lasted about 18 minutes I think (that NC execution). So for 18 minutes someone survived the initial very very large concentrations of HCN all around him - that diffused down to about 3200 ppm after about ten minutes - and then lasted another 8 minutes in more or less uniform 3200 ppm. Do you not see something wrong with your logic from these facts?

Use your logic to explain the US gas execution situation. According to your logic they should have immediately died (like some in fact did - after about 2 minutes).

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Denying-History » Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:04 am

Blake, I posted the Link to Roberto's claims about the gas concentration multiple times... I have already covered the issue of American gas chambers.
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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby blake121666 » Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:39 am

Denying-History wrote:Blake, I posted the Link to Roberto's claims about the gas concentration multiple times... I have already covered the issue of American gas chambers.


You are not a serious person if you think you "have already covered the issue of American gas chambers". Undoubtedly persons in those gas chambers experienced an atmosphere of much higher HCN concentration than would have been experienced by your model of the Holocaust's alleged Zyklon gassings - and yet survive as long as that timeframe of your much reduced atmosphere's concentration. All I recall you saying was "persons weren't dead within the alleged gassing's timeframe". Or something like that. None of your posts have been very well thought out.

Rather than address the scenario I laid out in 3 points, you simply ignored those points and waved your hands with misunderstanding of each point - as well as misunderstanding what an LC50 is. Your hand-waving arguments were addressed from the very start of the discussion as not being detailed enough in its model. You assumed that the amount of outgassed HCN after a period of time was the amount spread throughout the room from the start of that time - which of course is not the case. You implied that half of a population dying (and not necessarily within your timeframe - could've been the next day) is good enough for the alleged scenario - which of course is not the case. ALL of the population has to be ensured death - and within the timeframe of the alleged gassing procedure.

I think you just don't get the simple scenario being discussed - and probably won't get it.

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:01 pm

blake121666 wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
blake121666 wrote:"Well above boiling point"?

Why don't you start from scratch and tell me what it is you are saying - in your own words w/o confusing whatever it is you think other links are saying?

Just lay out what you are saying in simple language. That is what I have been doing.

With this "well above boiling point" statement you are now saying that an alleged gassing had the room well above boiling point. Before you were saying something like 20C, weren't you?

Please just give your run of events of a typical gassing. Here is mine:

1. Zyklon is exposed and starts outgassing according to the evaporation rate curves I showed you. Pick a temperature and we'll work with that.
2. As the Zyklon outgasses, the concentration of HCN in the air gets greater and greater. What is the concentration at the far reaches from any Zyklon source after M minutes?
3. What concentration for how long would ENSURE a lethal dose to a random person at those farthest distances from the sources? This lethal dose has to ensure that the person is dead within a reasonable amount of time. Your "reasonable amount of time" that you are saying is what now? An hour? I don't think anyone other than you has been claiming such? If you are claiming it is an hour, then I'm inclined to say I agree with you. I don't see the narrative as being 1-hour gassings though.

I don't think anyone other than you on this board is interested in these details and that is why I have not brought up the specifics. Over the weekend I'll give my answers to these 3 questions with my reasoning backed by empirical evidence for my answers.

But my whole point from the start, and now, is that actual tests are the only thing to PROVE such things as these to anyone's satisfaction. So I'll outline what tests would be necessary to satisfy this particular Revisionist argument.

This new twist that you are throwing out that persons weren't even dead when the ventilation was turned on is the first I've ever heard of it. Why wasn't the ventilation turned on DURING the gassing, then? One would think that would have helped - giving a quicker distribution of the concentration? Why wouldn't this have been done? Such was done for delousing machines: Zyklon was heated for quick evaporation (but not as quickly as you are saying) and a blower distributed this outgassed HCN. It's not as if Germans didn't know these simple principles which they used for delousing? So you are saying that instead of doing things in this delousing way - which would probably take about 15 minutes or so - they instead took an hour to do it in your haphazard way.


I don't mind discussing this, blake.

So, does Rudolf account for the fact that we actually have multiple sources of cyanide? II &III used four ZB introduction columns to insure the even distribution of gas.


I'm sure Rudolf is aware of multiple sources of Zyklon. I don;t recall him actually calculating such off the top of my head though. I haven't read Rudolf in quite a while on these matters.


It doesn't seem that way if he is using US gassings as a source. Only one source instead of four and the columns were designed and placed to spread the gas evenly throughout the room. Also, we have one person vs. 1,000-2,000 locked in a room, which means we have a much greater oxygen displacement factor in play.

Does Rudolf account for any of this? Check and let me know.

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:15 pm

Yeah, I read blake's reply to your question and mentally noted the dodge and intellectual dishonesty.
Nazism conspired to create a sense of festival time. . . . Tragically for humanity, the party generating it was the type not associated with the coloured costumes of the Brazilian Carnival, but with the brown-shirted thuggery of the NSDAP. The contrast between the dance and the march, between the samba and the strains of the Horst Wessel Lied, points to the gulf separating a life-asserting community from a community which exists only by creating a demonized other. - RG '97

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Denying-History » Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:32 pm

blake121666 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:Blake, I posted the Link to Roberto's claims about the gas concentration multiple times... I have already covered the issue of American gas chambers.


You are not a serious person if you think you "have already covered the issue of American gas chambers". Undoubtedly persons in those gas chambers experienced an atmosphere of much higher HCN concentration than would have been experienced by your model of the Holocaust's alleged Zyklon gassings - and yet survive as long as that timeframe of your much reduced atmosphere's concentration. All I recall you saying was "persons weren't dead within the alleged gassing's timeframe". Or something like that. None of your posts have been very well thought out.

Rather than address the scenario I laid out in 3 points, you simply ignored those points and waved your hands with misunderstanding of each point - as well as misunderstanding what an LC50 is. Your hand-waving arguments were addressed from the very start of the discussion as not being detailed enough in its model. You assumed that the amount of outgassed HCN after a period of time was the amount spread throughout the room from the start of that time - which of course is not the case. You implied that half of a population dying (and not necessarily within your timeframe - could've been the next day) is good enough for the alleged scenario - which of course is not the case. ALL of the population has to be ensured death - and within the timeframe of the alleged gassing procedure.

I think you just don't get the simple scenario being discussed - and probably won't get it.


Only you could post large amounts of pointless information to a short post. I thought since you took three days to reply I would be able to make a short comment about statements made in your last post. I have continued to refer throught this conversation while giving the link multiple times for you to reach Roberto's model. You said I never gave a link.

You also mention US gas chambers...

I have told you this before that your HEART is what conditions your marking for death in an American gas chamber. Death can happen before cardiac arrest. The point is the heart was not a measure for finding out if those who are inside the chamber were dead. This is why, as Rudolf does, using American gas chambers as a model to measure the amount of time it takes someone to die is misleading, no one is assuming in American gas chambers that people would die immediately, but they definitely would be considered dead by the Nazis after 15 minutes considering some hearts have beated up to 18 to from what I have heard 30 minutes in American gas chambers.

I'll talk about your senario later, you
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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Denying-History » Sat Oct 07, 2017 11:57 am

blake121666 wrote:I had other work-related things crop up and haven't been able to get around to this at this time. But I think K2 and K3 were each about 500 m^3.

HCN is only very slightly lighter than air and so one can do the ppm to mg/m^3 easily by assuming it to be the same and call the ppm the mg/m^3; but let's be formal and use this calculator and the fact that HCN has a molecular weight of 27.0253 g/mol:

https://www.lenntech.com/calculators/pp ... illion.htm

So from this site, your 990 ppm is 1180 mg/m^3 (19% higher than 990).

Even if one assumed a uniform distribution throughout the room of this 990 ppm (which would not be the case in your timeframes) in a 500 m^3 room, that would be (1180 mg/m^3) x 500 m^3 = 590,000 mg = 590 g. Since you are assuming this to be 10% of the initial dosage , you are saying that initial dosage was 5900 g = 5.9 kg.


I believe that L1 is actually 510 m^3. But lets stick with your figure for 500 cu. Hoess gives a figure of 5 to 7 kg.

5 kg = 5000 grams = 5000000 mg / 500 m^3 = 9800 mg/m^3

7 kg = 7000 grams = 7000000 mg / 500 m^3 = 14000 mg/m^3

(9800 mg/m^3)(24.45)/27.0253 g/mol = 8865 ppmv

(14000 mg/m^3)(24.45)/27.0253 = 12665 ppmv

So 8865 to 12665 or 886.5 to 1266.5 ppmv after ten minutes.

You should be aware this calculation is for 25 degrees and air of 1. Which if I remember correctly is not accurate for a release time at 15 degrees Celsius.

Using the faulty logic you are using here, tell me why the average time for persons in US gas executions is around 9 minutes (in this scenario the concentration starts out very large and decreases). In this case you have a dense 162.5 g HCN cloud diffusing past the person - which would settle down to 3200 ppm in about 10 minutes throughout the small chamber. One person lasted about 18 minutes I think (that NC execution). So for 18 minutes someone survived the initial very very large concentrations of HCN all around him - that diffused down to about 3200 ppm after about ten minutes - and then lasted another 8 minutes in more or less uniform 3200 ppm. Do you not see something wrong with your logic from these facts?


I have... Multiple times... Death can happen before cardiac arrest. You are not pronounced dead in an American gas chamber until your heart stops. Mind that also the gas chambers themselves at Auschwitz were different from American gas chambers in that their gassing time was effected by the weather. The gas according to Hoess gassing took "from 3 to 15 minutes to kill the people" "depending upon climatic conditions". Hoess states they usually waited "one half hour" for the room to be ventilated during which people were also exposed to the gas for the first 10 minutes of ventilation at 1000 ppm or higher.
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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby blake121666 » Fri Nov 03, 2017 3:35 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Yeah, I read blake's reply to your question and mentally noted the dodge and intellectual dishonesty.


Explain this further. What "dodge and intellectual dishonesty"? Who is the "your" in this post?

The problem I am dealing with here is that you people don't understand the subject. Why don't you enlighten us all that YOU understand the subject? Point out any "dodge and intellectual dishonesty", moron.

But on second thought, just drop it. I'm pretty sure you'll throw out some utterly pointless reply.

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby blake121666 » Fri Nov 03, 2017 3:41 am

RE D-H:

Cardiac arrest? What in the hell? You are too clueless. You are so utterly clueless there is no point in continuing.

You think persons executed in US gas chambers die of cardiac arrest! :roll: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Balmoral95 » Fri Nov 03, 2017 5:00 am

blake121666 wrote:RE D-H:

Cardiac arrest? What in the hell? You are too clueless. You are so utterly clueless there is no point in continuing.

You think persons executed in US gas chambers die of cardiac arrest! :roll: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


You lied here about what he said, twot face.

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby blake121666 » Fri Nov 03, 2017 5:36 am

Balmoral95 wrote:
blake121666 wrote:RE D-H:

Cardiac arrest? What in the hell? You are too clueless. You are so utterly clueless there is no point in continuing.

You think persons executed in US gas chambers die of cardiac arrest! :roll: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


You lied here about what he said, twot face.


It appears you are correct. Why is he so cluelessly bringing up "cardiac arrest" should have been what I asked. :lol: Does he even know what the term "cardiac arrest" means? :roll:

The posts are just so beyond-the-pale stupid I can't be bothered to address them in any way.

Do you, Balmoral95, think he has some point to this idiocy he is writing?

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby blake121666 » Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:00 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
blake121666 wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
blake121666 wrote:"Well above boiling point"?

Why don't you start from scratch and tell me what it is you are saying - in your own words w/o confusing whatever it is you think other links are saying?

Just lay out what you are saying in simple language. That is what I have been doing.

With this "well above boiling point" statement you are now saying that an alleged gassing had the room well above boiling point. Before you were saying something like 20C, weren't you?

Please just give your run of events of a typical gassing. Here is mine:

1. Zyklon is exposed and starts outgassing according to the evaporation rate curves I showed you. Pick a temperature and we'll work with that.
2. As the Zyklon outgasses, the concentration of HCN in the air gets greater and greater. What is the concentration at the far reaches from any Zyklon source after M minutes?
3. What concentration for how long would ENSURE a lethal dose to a random person at those farthest distances from the sources? This lethal dose has to ensure that the person is dead within a reasonable amount of time. Your "reasonable amount of time" that you are saying is what now? An hour? I don't think anyone other than you has been claiming such? If you are claiming it is an hour, then I'm inclined to say I agree with you. I don't see the narrative as being 1-hour gassings though.

I don't think anyone other than you on this board is interested in these details and that is why I have not brought up the specifics. Over the weekend I'll give my answers to these 3 questions with my reasoning backed by empirical evidence for my answers.

But my whole point from the start, and now, is that actual tests are the only thing to PROVE such things as these to anyone's satisfaction. So I'll outline what tests would be necessary to satisfy this particular Revisionist argument.

This new twist that you are throwing out that persons weren't even dead when the ventilation was turned on is the first I've ever heard of it. Why wasn't the ventilation turned on DURING the gassing, then? One would think that would have helped - giving a quicker distribution of the concentration? Why wouldn't this have been done? Such was done for delousing machines: Zyklon was heated for quick evaporation (but not as quickly as you are saying) and a blower distributed this outgassed HCN. It's not as if Germans didn't know these simple principles which they used for delousing? So you are saying that instead of doing things in this delousing way - which would probably take about 15 minutes or so - they instead took an hour to do it in your haphazard way.


I don't mind discussing this, blake.

So, does Rudolf account for the fact that we actually have multiple sources of cyanide? II &III used four ZB introduction columns to insure the even distribution of gas.


I'm sure Rudolf is aware of multiple sources of Zyklon. I don;t recall him actually calculating such off the top of my head though. I haven't read Rudolf in quite a while on these matters.


It doesn't seem that way if he is using US gassings as a source. Only one source instead of four and the columns were designed and placed to spread the gas evenly throughout the room. Also, we have one person vs. 1,000-2,000 locked in a room, which means we have a much greater oxygen displacement factor in play.

Does Rudolf account for any of this? Check and let me know.


You are unfortunately not following. We haven't discussed the ACTUAL dispersion because we don't and never will know that. We KNOW that the rate isn't infinite though. That is the only point. Your partner in idiocy here keeps missing that point - except when he now makes up things about persons not actually being dead after a gassing. Now he is claiming the deaths came afterwards - during the evacuation of the HCN with a blower!

Rudolf didn't use "US gassings as a source". "US gassings" are significantly different than what we are talking about here. The "US gassings" are only for pointing out that persons exposed to orders of magnitude more HCN concentration than the alleged Zyklon gassings still take up to 20 minutes to die. That is all that has been made of "US gassings" so far in this thread.

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Denying-History » Fri Nov 03, 2017 9:35 am

blake121666 wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:
blake121666 wrote:RE D-H:

Cardiac arrest? What in the hell? You are too clueless. You are so utterly clueless there is no point in continuing.

You think persons executed in US gas chambers die of cardiac arrest! :roll: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


You lied here about what he said, twot face.


It appears you are correct. Why is he so cluelessly bringing up "cardiac arrest" should have been what I asked. :lol: Does he even know what the term "cardiac arrest" means? :roll:


Have you ignored every reference to the heart? Are you really that {!#%@} incompetent to not realize I am talking about the loss in and of heart function. That is what cardiac arrest is you {!#%@} moron...

blake121666 wrote:The posts are just so beyond-the-pale stupid I can't be bothered to address them in any way.

Do you, Balmoral95, think he has some point to this idiocy he is writing?


Come on Blake, you should know American gas chamber times are not reliable for any form of comparison for exposure times for death. Especially when you are not declared dead until your heart stops, which can continue to function after death.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmhBEeEMqYo

I also thought that you might have read "The Last Gasp" I believe Rudolf recommended it. From page 209:

When the anoxia sets in, the brain remains alive for from two to five minutes. The heart will continue to beat for a period of time after that, perhaps five to seven minutes, or longer, though at a very low cardiac output. Death can occur ten to twelve minutes after the gas is released in the chamber.
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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:52 pm

blake121666 wrote:BTW, the person in that vid is sacrificing his life with this video. The question is not IF he were to die, it is WHEN. He most likely would die in this experiment he suggests, it might not happen until the next day, though. At the least he would experience a condition requiring medical aid!


Well, no pain, no gain. He gets my full support.


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