Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

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Denying-History
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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Denying-History » Fri Nov 03, 2017 2:11 pm

blake121666 wrote:You are unfortunately not following. We haven't discussed the ACTUAL dispersion because we don't and never will know that. We KNOW that the rate isn't infinite though. That is the only point. Your partner in idiocy here keeps missing that point - except when he now makes up things about persons not actually being dead after a gassing. Now he is claiming the deaths came afterwards - during the evacuation of the HCN with a blower!


No one said anything of such stripes... I have only stated Lethal concentrations would exist in the room as ventilation has started and would have remained at lethal concentrations till at least 10 minutes into the ventilation period... This makes a clear distinction between American gas chambers where you remain until your heart completely stops or that those still somehow functioning in some fashion with their brain shut down would have still been exposed to deadly concentrations. This would mean regardless if some bodily functions are still operating the Nazi's didn't care, as long as you are brain dead, that's all they cared for. By the point the ventilation was done a heart could still be functioning but mentally and physically you are dead.

How you are apparently incapable of reading such things are beyond me. And above you seem to be denying that the heart continues to beat after death as well.

blake121666 wrote:Rudolf didn't use "US gassings as a source". "US gassings" are significantly different than what we are talking about here. The "US gassings" are only for pointing out that persons exposed to orders of magnitude more HCN concentration than the alleged Zyklon gassings still take up to 20 minutes to die. That is all that has been made of "US gassings" so far in this thread.


You definitely are a bad liar aren't you? No Rudolf definitely has cited US gas chambers before and used them as a model for the gassings at Auschwitz.

http://www.vho.org/GB/c/GR/RudolfOnVanPelt.html#_ftnref34

And claims that a person under the concentration of 10,000 PPM could survive for 5 minutes. Which is clearly BS by even the LC50's for rats that you have published. But of course you are incapable of properly reading what people type.
Last edited by Denying-History on Fri Nov 03, 2017 3:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Nov 03, 2017 2:23 pm

blake121666 wrote:You are unfortunately not following.


I’m following along fine, I’m just getting to the point of not giving a {!#%@} anymore.
Blake, the issue (at least the way I see it) is the failure to account for as many variables as we can come up with to figure this out. ZB is only one factor.

The other factors to consider is how many sources of the gassing are we talking about, in this case four and with those four sources calculated to spread the gas as evenly as possible.

The second is crowd size, we are talking about 1,000-2,000 people packed into an air tight or even semi-air tight room and how this is affecting the air supply in the room.

The third is the biological processes taking place inside that room. You have people panicking, causing the release of adrenaline. This causes a spike in heart rate and breathing, causing blood circulation to speed up. This helps in delivering the poison faster to vital areas of the body while at the same time causing the oxygen supply to lower and causing the concentration of carbon dioxide to rise in the room.

Last, you have the physical reactions of those locked in the room. They are not restrained in any way, they will run, fight and in the end pile up in front of any possible exit.

Those are just what I can consider, I’m sure that others can come up with more.

Does any denier “researcher” consider any of the factors I’ve listed?

We haven't discussed the ACTUAL dispersion because we don't and never will know that. We KNOW that the rate isn't infinite though. That is the only point.


Well, then, why are you wasting our time if you have no other answers? What is Rudolf’s beef with any of this if he has no answers? He can only make guesses, just like Green, on what was going on in those rooms. BTW, why is Green wrong and Rudolf right? Is it because Rudolf’s views on this match your own?

Your partner in idiocy


My partner and I at least have enough intelligence to not dispute historical facts. What’s Rudolf’s excuse? What’s yours?

here keeps missing that point - except when he now makes up things about persons not actually being dead after a gassing. Now he is claiming the deaths came afterwards - during the evacuation of the HCN with a blower!


Well, considering that no one gave a crap about trying to determine if anyone’s heart had stopped or brain functions ceased then D-H is right. In US executions a doctor proclaims actual death of the deceased prisoner, no one bothered with that formality in the gas chambers.

Rudolf didn't use "US gassings as a source". "US gassings" are significantly different than what we are talking about here.


No {!#%@} {!#%@}, Sherlock!!!!! I’ve been saying this all along!!!! Wow, hallelujah, we have a breakthrough!!!!

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Nov 03, 2017 2:50 pm

blake121666 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Yeah, I read blake's reply to your question and mentally noted the dodge and intellectual dishonesty.


Explain this further. What "dodge and intellectual dishonesty"?

You didn't deal with the question about other factors, for example, multiple introduction points and numbers of victims crowded into the chambers.

blake121666 wrote:Who is the "your" in this post?

Jeffk, whose post mine immediately followed and responded to.

blake121666 wrote:Point out any "dodge and intellectual dishonesty", moron.

You, making long and detailed posts, replying to Jeffk's question about what Rudolf accounts for with the non-answer that you're sure he accounts for what Jeffk asked about but you can't recall - and apparently won't check.

blake121666 wrote:But on second thought, just drop it. I'm pretty sure you'll throw out some utterly pointless reply.

No doubt. Morons do that, you know. They also point out that you still haven't provided Jeffk with a serious answer to his quite serious questions.
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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby blake121666 » Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:02 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
blake121666 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Yeah, I read blake's reply to your question and mentally noted the dodge and intellectual dishonesty.


Explain this further. What "dodge and intellectual dishonesty"?

You didn't deal with the question about other factors, for example, multiple introduction points and numbers of victims crowded into the chambers.


They are beside the point of the simple chemistry being stated. If I were to tell you that if I dripped drops of water into an acre-sized pond that where that water dropped in the pond would result in splashing at that point, who the hell cares if you did the same thing 10 yards away? The room was big, the Zyklon sources were small. Regardless of what is on the other side of the room, you still have the behavior at each source. The statements I made implicitly handled multiple sources. There would ALWAYS be a distance between ANY AND ALL sources (unless you are claiming the sources were spread along the entire floor - obviously not).

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
blake121666 wrote:Who is the "your" in this post?

Jeffk, whose post mine immediately followed and responded to.

blake121666 wrote:Point out any "dodge and intellectual dishonesty", moron.

You, making long and detailed posts, replying to Jeffk's question about what Rudolf accounts for with the non-answer that you're sure he accounts for what Jeffk asked about but you can't recall - and apparently won't check.


I was just telling you the simple chemical facts - which Rudolf or anyone else could reason. I wasn't PARTICULARLY mentioning anything of Rudolf. If I brought up the heliocentric model of the solar system, would you ask me what Copernicus had to say about that? WTF. I told you I haven't read Rudolf's handling of the matter in years - and frankly don't really need to. I quite doubt he was unaware of the claims of multiple sources of Zyklon though.

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
blake121666 wrote:But on second thought, just drop it. I'm pretty sure you'll throw out some utterly pointless reply.

No doubt. Morons do that, you know. They also point out that you still haven't provided Jeffk with a serious answer to his quite serious questions.


Maybe you should rephrase the questions then. I told him that we aren't talking about such detailed matters as the EXACT dispersion of the HCN - because we of course don't know that. The simple matter of the HCN concentration at the source being greater than far from the source while the diffusion is happening doesn't require much more explication. Don't you agree? The case is that you have Zyklon pellets which have HCN gas evaporating off of them and dispersing away from them (at a higher rate than the evaporation). So the gas is diffusing away from the source. The source of that HCN gas would be at higher concentration than the HCN that diffuses away from it - because it diffuses out in all directions. You seem to want an EXACT statement of this diffusion or something. You're missing the point. Or don't understand the very simple point being made.

Let's just clear it up again. If I spread out G grams of Zyklon (which, btw means G grams of cyanide - that is how the Zyklon is referred to - by its cyanide content) in a room of volume V, it is NOT the case to say that every sub-volume of the room has a concentration of G/V. It will eventually be that; but not until some sort of equilibrium occurs. And we are not in that situation with the scenario we are discussing. The Zyklon is still outgassing throughout the whole process and the outgassing will be a diffusion - together with later combinations from other sources of course. But the room is very large - the evaporation and dispersion is not at an infinite rate. The evaporation rate being somewhat of a known thing; the dispersion - not so much - but would follow simple facts of concentrations not adding up to more than the sum of their parts of course.

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:38 pm

blake121666 wrote:
They are beside the point of the simple chemistry being stated. If I were to tell you that if I dripped drops of water into an acre-sized pond that where that water dropped in the pond would result in splashing at that point, who the hell cares if you did the same thing 10 yards away? The room was big, the Zyklon sources were small. Regardless of what is on the other side of the room, you still have the behavior at each source. The statements I made implicitly handled multiple sources. There would ALWAYS be a distance between ANY AND ALL sources (unless you are claiming the sources were spread along the entire floor - obviously not).


Huh?

Blake, we aren’t talking about dripping water into another water source, we are talking about the behavior of gases in a sealed room, among all the other factors I brought up.

blake121666 wrote: Iwas just telling you the simple chemical facts - which Rudolf or anyone else could reason. I wasn't PARTICULARLY mentioning anything of Rudolf. If I brought up the heliocentric model of the solar system, would you ask me what Copernicus had to say about that? WTF. I told you I haven't read Rudolf's handling of the matter in years - and frankly don't really need to. I quite doubt he was unaware of the claims of multiple sources of Zyklon though.


Then why don’t you take a timeout and do some research for us? I won’t because I find reading denier material tedious.


I told him that we aren't talking about such detailed matters as the EXACT dispersion of the HCN - because we of course don't know that. The simple matter of the HCN concentration at the source being greater than far from the source while the diffusion is happening doesn't require much more explication.


But, we also have multiple sources spaced at equal distances in columns designed to spread the gas equally. Also (for the 10th time) we have multiple factors to consider, not just the fact that hydrogen cyanide is enveloping the room.

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby blake121666 » Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:04 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
blake121666 wrote:
They are beside the point of the simple chemistry being stated. If I were to tell you that if I dripped drops of water into an acre-sized pond that where that water dropped in the pond would result in splashing at that point, who the hell cares if you did the same thing 10 yards away? The room was big, the Zyklon sources were small. Regardless of what is on the other side of the room, you still have the behavior at each source. The statements I made implicitly handled multiple sources. There would ALWAYS be a distance between ANY AND ALL sources (unless you are claiming the sources were spread along the entire floor - obviously not).


Huh?

Blake, we aren’t talking about dripping water into another water source, we are talking about the behavior of gases in a sealed room, among all the other factors I brought up.

blake121666 wrote: Iwas just telling you the simple chemical facts - which Rudolf or anyone else could reason. I wasn't PARTICULARLY mentioning anything of Rudolf. If I brought up the heliocentric model of the solar system, would you ask me what Copernicus had to say about that? WTF. I told you I haven't read Rudolf's handling of the matter in years - and frankly don't really need to. I quite doubt he was unaware of the claims of multiple sources of Zyklon though.


Then why don’t you take a timeout and do some research for us? I won’t because I find reading denier material tedious.


I told him that we aren't talking about such detailed matters as the EXACT dispersion of the HCN - because we of course don't know that. The simple matter of the HCN concentration at the source being greater than far from the source while the diffusion is happening doesn't require much more explication.


But, we also have multiple sources spaced at equal distances in columns designed to spread the gas equally. Also (for the 10th time) we have multiple factors to consider, not just the fact that hydrogen cyanide is enveloping the room.


Whatever "other factors" you mention have no bearing on those being discussed (in the manner they are being discussed here). HCN still evaporates off the Zyklon pellets and disperses throughout the room regardless of any "other factors". The number of piles and their placement has no bearing on the simple fact that, while in the process of outgassing and before any equilibrium(s), concentrations will be higher nearer to the source(s). And the number of people in the room doesn't matter either.

WRT this Rudolf question of yours: there is nothing to "research". You act as if anything but simple generalities are being stated. Rudolf of course does not have some detailed dynamic model or anything. NO ONE even could - not without doing some experiments with this exact situation they couldn't. And such models could never be anything more than general even then.

Yes, multiple sources would be multiple sources for the outer regions. Currents would also skew things. General statements as being made implicitly allow for these things. You seem to have the idea of some exacting models being stated here in your head - that is not what is being discussed here.

If I told you a general statement such as, say, a 3-body gravitational interaction would give perturbations to the 2-body gravitational interactions, I am not telling you the EXACT thing that would happen. I frankly COULDN'T really tell you that - except for empirical facts that would MAKE my model. The actual facts of what occurs would not follow my model - the situation would be reversed. My model could only model what in fact occurred. but certain things would of course be known about the interaction a priori: the masses of the bodies would remain unchanged, ... etc.

Likewise, the concentrations would follow sensible generalities. Not everywhere immediately and at the same time will the room have the average concentration of the outgassed HCN. So you can't say: after 10 minutes, G grams of HCN have evaporated off, therefore EVERY part of the room from the beginning of this happening has had the AVERAGE concentration after 10 minutes. That's as bogus as can be. A child would see this.
Last edited by blake121666 on Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:07 pm

OK, I’m out. Anyone else want to take a crack at this, feel free.

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby blake121666 » Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:16 pm

And persons executed in the US gas execution chambers are not practically dead immediately with people waiting for his heart to stop. That is precisely why states have phased out the gas executions. The gas execution in NC when I lived there in the '90s had the condemned fluttering about for about 20 minutes - not in some sort of coma or something until his heart stopped. It was a spectacle. When he stopped fluttering about was when he was DEAD.

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:22 pm

Calm down, little blake, gee whiz. You were asked a different question to the one you wanted to answer. All you did was fail to answer what you were asked. You guys do that all the time. No big deal.

Anyway, given the scenario you describe, I'd ask how close were the drop points one to the other, what was the temperature of the water and how it affected dispersion, what was the dispersion rate under the observed conditions, and how many fish were present and where. I most certainly would not make a comparison to a dripping faucet in an American warehouse. Nor would I ignore variables in favor of shouting but clam up when asked about one of my sources.

But Jeffk asked you about the gas chambers at Birkenau, which you apparently prefer not to get into.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Balmoral95 » Sat Nov 04, 2017 2:02 am

blake121666 wrote:And persons executed in the US gas execution chambers are not practically dead immediately with people waiting for his heart to stop. That is precisely why states have phased out the gas executions. The gas execution in NC when I lived there in the '90s had the condemned fluttering about for about 20 minutes - not in some sort of coma or something until his heart stopped. It was a spectacle. When he stopped fluttering about was when he was DEAD.


Irrelevant and non-responsive. Who cares?

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:09 am

#civilwar2017 You idiots. The Communists plan for revolution tomorrow and will destroy America if not stopped - and you're arguing about how gas chambers in NC worked?!?!?! Get real, get serious. Stop the Antifa Communists #MAGA
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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Denying-History » Sat Nov 04, 2017 7:27 pm

blake121666 wrote:And persons executed in the US gas execution chambers are not practically dead immediately with people waiting for his heart to stop. That is precisely why states have phased out the gas executions. The gas execution in NC when I lived there in the '90s had the condemned fluttering about for about 20 minutes - not in some sort of coma or something until his heart stopped. It was a spectacle. When he stopped fluttering about was when he was DEAD.


Alright? You literally stated exactly what everyone here agrees with when we say those inside the chamber died within 5 to 15 minutes. You seem to have missed the part where I quoted that the Brain dies after 2-5 minutes, while the heart can continue on for 7 minutes even after death, so your nine minute average is worthless.

Your constant insistence on US gas chambers is also not what JeffK is talking about you incessant moron.
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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:59 am

Let's forget other GCs for a sec: people denying the gas van gassings are clearly irrational. If they can't accept something so well documented, there's no reason to engage them further.

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:52 pm

It always shocked me to see how much documentation exists for gas vans and the very explicit language written in those documents.


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