Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Balmoral95 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:29 am

blake121666 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:. . . try a library, as onerous a task as that may be.

These guys struggle with books. He could just skim the darned thread I linked to.


So my asking you for your personal estimate is: "try a library". Where might I find YOUR estimate in a library? I told you, I'm not interested in death estimates from EG. You brought it up, not I. And you don't agree with everything out there.

I never said I was interested in EG "death estimates" ever. The OP isn't about that. And no, I don't have a "personal estimate" regarding same. No I didn't bring this up, you did, you stupid facking , annoying {!#%@}.

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Denying-History » Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:50 am

blake121666 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
blake121666 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:Buying disinfection manuals when we already have enough of them for free? And also have the perfect release time to show at 15 degrees calculus in the gas chambers that people could be exposed to lethal levels between 5 to 15 minutes. Honestly seems worthless to me.


Such is still up for debate. There is no exactness in anything you've postulated here. And US gas executions give quite valid skepticism to what you believe to be "lethal levels between 5 to 15 minutes".


Blake, come on people are not marked death in a US gas chamber until their heart stops. The two are a poor comparison especially even based on the basic concept of what Piper said. The gas chambers were not created for that reason, but were based on the construction of a morgue. The room was clearly not a morgue on the simple fact that the room has Cyanide residue within its walls.

Also mind that THHP has already pointed out Irmscher's paper:

http://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-history.org/works/irmscher-1942/

Do you deny Gassings happened in Krema 2, 3, and 5 or not? (skipping 4)


I currently deny all gassings (other than T4. I think Hans gave me good enough proof of that). If not, then I wouldn't consider myself a "denier" but merely a skeptical revisionist.


So the order for gas introduction devices and the labeling of a room in Krema 4 isn't sufficient proof?

Idk seems rather odd to me to come to such a conclusion when you consider it completely possible to gas people in those rooms within a timeframe of I think you (labeled 15 minutes) at a ppm of 2,000.
« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:35 am

blake121666 wrote:It seems you guys have pet theories as well. Noted.

A total 92 T4 personnel - experienced in mass murder by gas - were reassigned eventually to the Einsatz Reinhard camps (this is explained in the HC White Paper in some detail), and the murder unit at "Kulmhof," Sonderkommando Lange, was redeployed from the euthanasia action in the Warthegau to the mass murder of Jews. Not pet theories but verifiable claims, based on, er, evidence.

I agree with Jeffk, a thread on T4 and the links to the Einsatz Reinhard camps would be welcome.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:37 am

blake121666 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
blake121666 wrote:You seem to be equating . . .

You seem to be fleeing two claims you made in this thread within minutes of making them . . .


Which ones?

This one:
blake121666 wrote:Deniers don't deny mass shootings on the Eastern Front.


And this one:
blake121666 wrote:The numbers could be inflated though.

The two I asked you about and about which I challenged you.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:50 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
blake121666 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
blake121666 wrote:I didn't bring it up and you like to bicker. Nothing but bickering from you so far.

blake, you brought it up - "The numbers could be inflated though." Now you're lying so you don't have to defend an absurdity. And jabbering about "bickering." Transparent BS.

Show us where I posted about the numbers of EG victims before you wrote, "The numbers could be inflated though." Go ahead.


We've been through all this in Rodoh 1 for crying out loud. Do you want to go down this silly path again? Do you want me to dig out references of commanders inflating numbers?

Yes, that's what I want. Because not you or anyone else has ever written anything convincing about systemic overestimates from the commanders. Also, the death toll estimates I gave you are not solely reliant on the EG reports but are based on a variety of sources .. . .

I can't find much on this issue in my Rodoh1.0 discussions, only an isolated instance of an exaggerated number for the so-called Kovno Aktion in a Gestapo report, to which Herman Kruk got access and noted in his diary (I brought this up, for crissakes), and this reply I made to Patrick McNally, beseeching him to provide what you claim I've "been through":
Please provide the citations in which it is generally recognized that the casualty reports from the EGs are exaggerated. Not an argument about one Army group or an argument from "people tend to do these things" (you seem to excel at the latter irrelevancy but citations that prove a general pattern and are relevant to these crimes. I am not aware of other such sources and have not understood that such reports are generally thought to be inflated.

There was a fair amount of discussion, with Bunny, of Ohlendorf's latter-day claim to have exaggerated on the stand at the IMT (on this I wrote, "So here we have Ohlendorf in early 1946 providing a number for murders carried out by his EG, which the prosecution didn't know, and then, when on trial for his life 20-some months later, disputing the number which he had himself provided and which had subsequently been found in an official and authoritative report on the work of his EG"), but postwar trial testimony is a horse of a different color.

It would seem that you are misrepresenting the discussions at Rodoh 1.0 on this, at least insofar as I was involved.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby NathanC » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:48 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
blake121666 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
blake121666 wrote:I didn't bring it up and you like to bicker. Nothing but bickering from you so far.

blake, you brought it up - "The numbers could be inflated though." Now you're lying so you don't have to defend an absurdity. And jabbering about "bickering." Transparent BS.

Show us where I posted about the numbers of EG victims before you wrote, "The numbers could be inflated though." Go ahead.


We've been through all this in Rodoh 1 for crying out loud. Do you want to go down this silly path again? Do you want me to dig out references of commanders inflating numbers?

Yes, that's what I want. Because not you or anyone else has ever written anything convincing about systemic overestimates from the commanders. Also, the death toll estimates I gave you are not solely reliant on the EG reports but are based on a variety of sources .. . .

I can't find much on this issue in my Rodoh1.0 discussions, only an isolated instance of an exaggerated number for the so-called Kovno Aktion in a Gestapo report, to which Herman Kruk got access and noted in his diary (I brought this up, for crissakes), and this reply I made to Patrick McNally, beseeching him to provide what you claim I've "been through":
Please provide the citations in which it is generally recognized that the casualty reports from the EGs are exaggerated. Not an argument about one Army group or an argument from "people tend to do these things" (you seem to excel at the latter irrelevancy but citations that prove a general pattern and are relevant to these crimes. I am not aware of other such sources and have not understood that such reports are generally thought to be inflated.

There was a fair amount of discussion, with Bunny, of Ohlendorf's latter-day claim to have exaggerated on the stand at the IMT (on this I wrote, "So here we have Ohlendorf in early 1946 providing a number for murders carried out by his EG, which the prosecution didn't know, and then, when on trial for his life 20-some months later, disputing the number which he had himself provided and which had subsequently been found in an official and authoritative report on the work of his EG"), but postwar trial testimony is a horse of a different color.

It would seem that you are misrepresenting the discussions at Rodoh 1.0 on this, at least insofar as I was involved.


Lol, Holocaust Denier "Logic".

There was allegedly no systematic, ordered from the top extermination going on. And yet, SS EG commanders felt the need to "exaggerate" or "inflate" their figures in order to meet some sort of death quota or goal....which would only be needed if there was a systematic, ordered from the top extermination program with a specific end goal. Idiots.

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:33 pm

NathanC wrote:Lol, Holocaust Denier "Logic".

There was allegedly no systematic, ordered from the top extermination going on. And yet, SS EG commanders felt the need to "exaggerate" or "inflate" their figures in order to meet some sort of death quota or goal....which would only be needed if there was a systematic, ordered from the top extermination program with a specific end goal. Idiots.

Yep, that's the pickle blake has got himself into wittering on about inflated death tolls in the EG reports. Dumb, dumb, dumb.

After bringing this stuff up, poor little blake would have been better off being honest and saying that he was only repeating some idiotic stuff he came across which appealed to his biases because he's a denier.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby blake121666 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:42 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
NathanC wrote:Lol, Holocaust Denier "Logic".

There was allegedly no systematic, ordered from the top extermination going on. And yet, SS EG commanders felt the need to "exaggerate" or "inflate" their figures in order to meet some sort of death quota or goal....which would only be needed if there was a systematic, ordered from the top extermination program with a specific end goal. Idiots.

Yep, that's the pickle blake has got himself into wittering on about inflated death tolls in the EG reports. Dumb, dumb, dumb.

After bringing this stuff up, poor little blake would have been better off being honest and saying that he was only repeating some idiotic stuff he came across which appealed to his biases because he's a denier.


Jeffk1970 brought up:

"... mass shootings of Jews on the Eastern Front? Do you also deny those?"

I replied to this with 2 sentences:

"Deniers don't deny mass shootings on the Eastern Front. The numbers could be inflated though."

Then you went off on rants about me "bringing this stuff up" - all from the simple statement "The numbers could be inflated though".

I'm simply not interested in this subject at this time. You obviously want a full accounting on the matter. I'm not even interested in this particular matter at this particular time. I have other things on my plate. Even if the numbers were not inflated (I used the word "could" if you notice), it isn't particularly interesting to me.

So no, I didn't bring it up. And it is not me tossing out preposterous claims as you are implying. Nor do I particularly care what each and every "denier" has claimed on the matter in its particulars. My statement as given is correct.

EDIT: And you and the moose from Canada had long threads about this subject on Rodoh 1. Probably around the 2008-2010 timeframe as I vaguely recall.

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:47 pm

blake121666 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
NathanC wrote:Lol, Holocaust Denier "Logic".

There was allegedly no systematic, ordered from the top extermination going on. And yet, SS EG commanders felt the need to "exaggerate" or "inflate" their figures in order to meet some sort of death quota or goal....which would only be needed if there was a systematic, ordered from the top extermination program with a specific end goal. Idiots.

Yep, that's the pickle blake has got himself into wittering on about inflated death tolls in the EG reports. Dumb, dumb, dumb.

After bringing this stuff up, poor little blake would have been better off being honest and saying that he was only repeating some idiotic stuff he came across which appealed to his biases because he's a denier.


Jeffk1970 brought up:

"... mass shootings of Jews on the Eastern Front? Do you also deny those?"

I replied to this with 2 sentences:

"Deniers don't deny mass shootings on the Eastern Front. The numbers could be inflated though."

Then you went off on rants about me "bringing this stuff up" - all from the simple statement "The numbers could be inflated though".

I'm simply not interested in this subject at this time. You obviously want a full accounting on the matter. I'm not even interested in this particular matter at this particular time. I have other things on my plate. Even if the numbers were not inflated (I used the word "could" if you notice), it isn't particularly interesting to me.

So no, I didn't bring it up. And it is not me tossing out preposterous claims as you are implying. Nor do I particularly care what each and every "denier" has claimed on the matter in its particulars. My statement as given is correct.

EDIT: And you and the moose from Canada had long threads about this subject on Rodoh 1. Probably around the 2008-2010 timeframe as I vaguely recall.


Hey, Blake? I don't really care about that.

I want to know if you want me to open new threads on the Reinhard Camps and/or T-4. We can talk about this there.

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:51 pm

blake121666 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
NathanC wrote:Lol, Holocaust Denier "Logic".

There was allegedly no systematic, ordered from the top extermination going on. And yet, SS EG commanders felt the need to "exaggerate" or "inflate" their figures in order to meet some sort of death quota or goal....which would only be needed if there was a systematic, ordered from the top extermination program with a specific end goal. Idiots.

Yep, that's the pickle blake has got himself into wittering on about inflated death tolls in the EG reports. Dumb, dumb, dumb.

After bringing this stuff up, poor little blake would have been better off being honest and saying that he was only repeating some idiotic stuff he came across which appealed to his biases because he's a denier.


Jeffk1970 brought up:

"... mass shootings of Jews on the Eastern Front? Do you also deny those?"

I replied to this with 2 sentences:

"Deniers don't deny mass shootings on the Eastern Front. The numbers could be inflated though."

You brought up "numbers could be inflated," which you then tried having that I introduced ("You brought it up, not I"). You now provide the basic time line - and you could not show my, or anyone else's, having brought up inflated death tolls of the EGs before you did.

Frankly, I don't like "bickering," but what I like less is the way you weasel and lie.

blake121666 wrote:Then you went off on rants about me "bringing this stuff up" - all from the simple statement "The numbers could be inflated though".

Hardly. I challenged you to defend the possibility, which you've decided not to do, because you can't, preferring to bicker.

blake121666 wrote:I'm simply not interested in this subject at this time.

Simple. This is a discussion and debate forum. Don't introduce what you can't defend. And don't lie about what you did and what you're interested in. Doing so makes you look like a worm.

blake121666 wrote:You obviously want a full accounting on the matter.

If I did, you are the last person I'd ask. Frankly.

blake121666 wrote:The numbers could be inflated though.I'm not even interested in this particular matter at this particular time. I have other things on my plate. Even if the numbers were not inflated (I used the word "could" if you notice), it isn't particularly interesting to me.

I get it. We all get it. You wrote something that you can't defend and now pretend it's of no interest. It might have been of interest to the 2 million victims, for example, but not to you, who has much more important and interesting things on your plate.

See if you'd replied to me, "Crap, I really don't know. I just repeat stupid stuff," we could have avoided all this, er, bickering. But recall that you also wrote that we'd gone through your point at Rodoh1.0. You want to be interested and not interested, saying the reports were inflated but maybe not, etc. What a crock.

Little shits like you - yeah, I am going to call you out every time, blake.

blake121666 wrote:So no, I didn't bring it up.

Farking idiot: "The numbers could be inflated though." I asked you about supposedly inflated death tallies of the EGs - that is what you most assuredly brought up.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:59 pm, edited 4 times in total.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby blake121666 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:52 pm

Denying-History wrote:
blake121666 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
blake121666 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:Buying disinfection manuals when we already have enough of them for free? And also have the perfect release time to show at 15 degrees calculus in the gas chambers that people could be exposed to lethal levels between 5 to 15 minutes. Honestly seems worthless to me.


Such is still up for debate. There is no exactness in anything you've postulated here. And US gas executions give quite valid skepticism to what you believe to be "lethal levels between 5 to 15 minutes".


Blake, come on people are not marked death in a US gas chamber until their heart stops. The two are a poor comparison especially even based on the basic concept of what Piper said. The gas chambers were not created for that reason, but were based on the construction of a morgue. The room was clearly not a morgue on the simple fact that the room has Cyanide residue within its walls.

Also mind that THHP has already pointed out Irmscher's paper:

http://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-history.org/works/irmscher-1942/

Do you deny Gassings happened in Krema 2, 3, and 5 or not? (skipping 4)


I currently deny all gassings (other than T4. I think Hans gave me good enough proof of that). If not, then I wouldn't consider myself a "denier" but merely a skeptical revisionist.


So the order for gas introduction devices and the labeling of a room in Krema 4 isn't sufficient proof?

Idk seems rather odd to me to come to such a conclusion when you consider it completely possible to gas people in those rooms within a timeframe of I think you (labeled 15 minutes) at a ppm of 2,000.


I never claimed such. I have alot of work to do and can't be as prosaic on the matter at this time. 2000 ppm is what is claimed to be the time one would expect most persons (above 50 percentile) exposed to this would die within one minute. It used to be around 3500 ppm (I'd have to check the exact concentration) until just a few years ago. Hence, US execution gas chambers are designed to reach 3500 ppm (or whatever the exact concentration is - I'd have to look it up).

I consider it an obvious fact that one could mass kill a room full of people by gassing with HCN. The question is in the very particular details. The 15 minutes and the 2000 ppm I'm not so sure I've claimed. But off the top of my head, that doesn't sound at all unreasonable to me. The details of what is alleged probably won't give that.

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:57 pm

blake121666 wrote:EDIT: And you and the moose from Canada had long threads about this subject on Rodoh 1. Probably around the 2008-2010 timeframe as I vaguely recall.

I can't find posts I made on this with Herb Moose (who disappeared from Rodoh after his Bloody Brigitte/Wilner fiasco . . . ) or anybody else, except as I noted already. Suffice to say, as I told you, and as I quoted from what I wrote at Rodoh1.0, none of you ever made a case for the logically ridiculous and historically illiterate claim you're trying to advance.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby blake121666 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:59 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
blake121666 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
NathanC wrote:Lol, Holocaust Denier "Logic".

There was allegedly no systematic, ordered from the top extermination going on. And yet, SS EG commanders felt the need to "exaggerate" or "inflate" their figures in order to meet some sort of death quota or goal....which would only be needed if there was a systematic, ordered from the top extermination program with a specific end goal. Idiots.

Yep, that's the pickle blake has got himself into wittering on about inflated death tolls in the EG reports. Dumb, dumb, dumb.

After bringing this stuff up, poor little blake would have been better off being honest and saying that he was only repeating some idiotic stuff he came across which appealed to his biases because he's a denier.


Jeffk1970 brought up:

"... mass shootings of Jews on the Eastern Front? Do you also deny those?"

I replied to this with 2 sentences:

"Deniers don't deny mass shootings on the Eastern Front. The numbers could be inflated though."

You brought up "numbers could be inflated," which you then tried having that I introduced ("You brought it up, not I"). You now provide the basic time line - and you could not show my, or anyone else's, having brought up inflated death tolls of the EGs before you did.

Frankly, I don't like "bickering," but what I like less is the way you weasel and lie.

blake121666 wrote:Then you went off on rants about me "bringing this stuff up" - all from the simple statement "The numbers could be inflated though".

Hardly. I challenged you to defend the possibility, which you've decided not to do, because you can't, preferring to bicker.

blake121666 wrote:I'm simply not interested in this subject at this time.

Simple. This is a discussion and debate forum. Don't introduce what you can't defend. And don't lie about what you did and what you're interested in. Doing so makes you look like a worm.

blake121666 wrote:You obviously want a full accounting on the matter.

If I did, you are the last person I'd ask. Frankly.

blake121666 wrote:The numbers could be inflated though.I'm not even interested in this particular matter at this particular time. I have other things on my plate. Even if the numbers were not inflated (I used the word "could" if you notice), it isn't particularly interesting to me.

I get it. We all get it. You wrote something that you can't defend and now pretend it's of no interest. It might have been of interest to the 2 million victims, for example, but not to you, who has much more important and interesting things on your plate.

Se if you'd replied to me, "Crap, I really don't know. I just repeat stupid stuff," we could have avoided all this, er, bickering.

Little shits like you - yeah, I am going to call you out every time, blake.

blake121666 wrote:So no, I didn't bring it up.

Farking idiot: "The numbers could be inflated though." I asked you about supposedly inflated death tallies of the EGs - that is what you most assuredly brought up.

And it is not me tossing out preposterous claims as you are implying. Nor do I particularly care what each and every "denier" has claimed on the matter in its particulars. My statement as given is correct.
[/quote]

So I should just ignore pointed questions from any of you to avoid long drawn-out crap that we've all seen a bazillion times? Then you'd claim dodging or weaseling, or whatever hysteric anti-dentite reaction is in your obsessed melon. StatMech is an anti-dentite who dishonors the memories of all dentists with his irrational anti-dentism.

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:59 pm

blake121666 wrote:And it is not me tossing out preposterous claims as you are implying. Nor do I particularly care what each and every "denier" has claimed on the matter in its particulars. My statement as given is correct.

No, it isn't. If you - not being interested - insist that it is correct, then prove it. Answer the questions I asked you and give your case. Instead of trying to hide beneath "bickering."
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:00 pm

WTF?

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:03 pm

blake121666 wrote:So I should just ignore pointed questions from any of you to avoid long drawn-out crap that we've all seen a bazillion times?

I don't give a crap. But if you make a claim, you will be pressed to defend it - and shown to be the disingenuous shithead you are when you can't.

blake121666 wrote:Then you'd claim dodging or weaseling, or whatever hysteric anti-dentite reaction is in your obsessed melon. StatMech is an anti-dentite who dishonors the memories of all dentists with his irrational anti-dentism.

?????

If you'd replied to Jeffk, "Deniers don't deny mass shootings on the Eastern Front" and not said anything about inflated death reports, do you imagine I'd have asked you about inflated death reports?

Well, I wouldn't have: I'd have shown you were wrong about what deniers deny.

Besides which, Jeffk asked YOU your view, which you weaseled around, by posting about what other deniers say and possibly inflated totals.

We see you for who and what you are, blake.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:04 pm

blake121666 wrote:So I should just ignore pointed questions from any of you to avoid long drawn-out crap that we've all seen a bazillion times? Then you'd claim dodging or weaseling, or whatever hysteric anti-dentite reaction is in your obsessed melon. StatMech is an anti-dentite who dishonors the memories of all dentists with his irrational anti-dentism.


I'm starting to get bored, Blake. I felt some optimism when you showed up, I felt this would give us something new to work with.

Now, do you want to discuss the ARC or T-4? If you do, let me know and I will open threads.

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby blake121666 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:05 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
blake121666 wrote:So I should just ignore pointed questions from any of you to avoid long drawn-out crap that we've all seen a bazillion times?

I don't give a crap. But if you make a claim, you will be pressed to defend it - and shown to be the disingenuous shithead you are when you can't.

blake121666 wrote:Then you'd claim dodging or weaseling, or whatever hysteric anti-dentite reaction is in your obsessed melon. StatMech is an anti-dentite who dishonors the memories of all dentists with his irrational anti-dentism.

?????

If you'd replied to Jeffk, "Deniers don't deny mass shootings on the Eastern Front" and not said anything about inflated death reports, do you imagine I'd have asked you about inflated death reports?

Well, I wouldn't have: I'd have shown you were wrong about what deniers deny.

Besides which, Jeffk asked YOU your view, which you weaseled around, by posting about what other deniers say and possibly inflated totals.

We see you for who and what you are, blake.


StatMech is a dangerous irrational anti-dentite. We need laws for his kind throughout the world. Get the UN on it!

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:06 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:WTF?

I edited my reply - is it clearer now?
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:07 pm

blake121666 wrote:StatMech is a dangerous irrational anti-dentite. We need laws for his kind throughout the world. Get the UN on it!

Thank you for acknowledging how out of your depth you find yourself here.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby blake121666 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:10 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
blake121666 wrote:So I should just ignore pointed questions from any of you to avoid long drawn-out crap that we've all seen a bazillion times? Then you'd claim dodging or weaseling, or whatever hysteric anti-dentite reaction is in your obsessed melon. StatMech is an anti-dentite who dishonors the memories of all dentists with his irrational anti-dentism.


I'm starting to get bored, Blake. I felt some optimism when you showed up, I felt this would give us something new to work with.

Now, do you want to discuss the ARC or T-4? If you do, let me know and I will open threads.


No. I'm not particularly interested in T4 simply because the narrative you laid out doesn't necessarily follow. You can only connect the dots backwards to reach your speculative forward narrative. But StatMech is going to reply to this shrugging of the issue in some hysterical fashion.

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:13 pm

blake121666 wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
blake121666 wrote:So I should just ignore pointed questions from any of you to avoid long drawn-out crap that we've all seen a bazillion times? Then you'd claim dodging or weaseling, or whatever hysteric anti-dentite reaction is in your obsessed melon. StatMech is an anti-dentite who dishonors the memories of all dentists with his irrational anti-dentism.


I'm starting to get bored, Blake. I felt some optimism when you showed up, I felt this would give us something new to work with.

Now, do you want to discuss the ARC or T-4? If you do, let me know and I will open threads.


No. I'm not particularly interested in T4 simply because the narrative you laid out doesn't necessarily follow. You can only connect the dots backwards to reach your speculative forward narrative. But StatMech is going to reply to this shrugging of the issue in some hysterical fashion.


Then what do you want to do here? Talk about the ARC?

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:14 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:WTF?

I edited my reply - is it clearer now?



No, my surprise is from the replies I'm seeing going back and forth. I realize you two have a history, I just didn't realize the extent.

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:15 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:I'm starting to get bored, Blake. . . .

The thought of 20 more posts in which blake tries to convince readers he didn't write what he wrote, and feigns disinterest in what he did post, doesn't enthrall you?
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:19 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:WTF?

I edited my reply - is it clearer now?



No, my surprise is from the replies I'm seeing going back and forth. I realize you two have a history, I just didn't realize the extent.

I don't think much of a history, actually, blake hardly posted much substantive at Rodoh1.0, he'd sometimes IIRC post about revisionist guru minutia, like a fanboy, he was boring there, I didn't engage with him. That said, I do find him as dishonest and useless as Balmoral said. Yeah, I have little patience for people like him. When little turds weasel and lie, I am going to say something about it.

There was a funny incident, however, with blake and poosh: poosh posted a picture of a snake eating a turnip or something. Being a turnip, blake figured poosh was alluding to him and considered the post a death threat. Or something like that. The incident led to much unpleasant whining. Now that I think more about this, LGR was somehow involved in the whining.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:25 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:I'm starting to get bored, Blake. . . .

The thought of 20 more posts in which blake tries to convince readers he didn't write what he wrote, and feigns disinterest in what he did post, doesn't enthrall you?



I just want him to tell me what he wants to do next. I'm sure Kleon will find this really confusing considering we are completely off topic.

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:29 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:I just want him to tell me what he wants to do next.

dream on, I wouldn't have high expectations about "skeptical revisionists" who "rely on" Herb Moose but don't have time for the scholarship about the period . . . just sayin'
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Denying-History » Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:15 pm

blake121666 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
blake121666 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
blake121666 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:Buying disinfection manuals when we already have enough of them for free? And also have the perfect release time to show at 15 degrees calculus in the gas chambers that people could be exposed to lethal levels between 5 to 15 minutes. Honestly seems worthless to me.


Such is still up for debate. There is no exactness in anything you've postulated here. And US gas executions give quite valid skepticism to what you believe to be "lethal levels between 5 to 15 minutes".


Blake, come on people are not marked death in a US gas chamber until their heart stops. The two are a poor comparison especially even based on the basic concept of what Piper said. The gas chambers were not created for that reason, but were based on the construction of a morgue. The room was clearly not a morgue on the simple fact that the room has Cyanide residue within its walls.

Also mind that THHP has already pointed out Irmscher's paper:

http://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-history.org/works/irmscher-1942/

Do you deny Gassings happened in Krema 2, 3, and 5 or not? (skipping 4)


I currently deny all gassings (other than T4. I think Hans gave me good enough proof of that). If not, then I wouldn't consider myself a "denier" but merely a skeptical revisionist.


So the order for gas introduction devices and the labeling of a room in Krema 4 isn't sufficient proof?

Idk seems rather odd to me to come to such a conclusion when you consider it completely possible to gas people in those rooms within a timeframe of I think you (labeled 15 minutes) at a ppm of 2,000.


I never claimed such. I have alot of work to do and can't be as prosaic on the matter at this time. 2000 ppm is what is claimed to be the time one would expect most persons (above 50 percentile) exposed to this would die within one minute. It used to be around 3500 ppm (I'd have to check the exact concentration) until just a few years ago. Hence, US execution gas chambers are designed to reach 3500 ppm (or whatever the exact concentration is - I'd have to look it up).

I consider it an obvious fact that one could mass kill a room full of people by gassing with HCN. The question is in the very particular details. The 15 minutes and the 2000 ppm I'm not so sure I've claimed. But off the top of my head, that doesn't sound at all unreasonable to me. The details of what is alleged probably won't give that.


I'm pretty sure I remember you telling Rollo that the gassing process would work. Though i guess I made a wrong assumption on the last part.
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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:57 pm

DH - I like your signature. Same is true of forensics. All evidence needs to be put into context and assessed.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:30 pm

What are you so afraid of, blake?
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Denying-History » Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:31 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:DH - I like your signature. Same is true of forensics. All evidence needs to be put into context and assessed.


I keep it because some people seem for forget that even documents can be fallible.
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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:47 am

Jeffk - these guys are so tediously predictable.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby blake121666 » Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:26 pm

Denying-History wrote:I'm pretty sure I remember you telling Rollo that the gassing process would work. Though i guess I made a wrong assumption on the last part.


No. I think my argument was probably something along the line of: if the dosage used was such that a concentration of at least 2000 ppm could reach any part of the room in about 15 minutes or so, then the claimed scenario would have some merit.

I say this because it is claimed that the 1-minute LC50 of HCN is 2000 ppm (used to be 3200 ppm - I looked it up). So if any part of the room had this concentration or above, then I would think a person in that environment would die in under a minute (or so - that question is somewhat iffy as well). So the question becomes: what dosage would give this? Its not a very easy question to answer. It could very well fall inline with what is alleged.

But the best way to answer such a question is to do actual tests with animals - which could be scaled down of course. Don't use dogs though - they have a very low tolerance to HCN. Since rats have a higher tolerance than humans, I suggest using them so that one could say: We even used rats and this worked, it would've then worked on humans.

There are quite a few variables involved, actually; but one could reasonably simulate the alleged gassings. The only problem would be nitpicking of the results on the Revisionist side of the tests indicated the alleged gassings would work. I'd be inclined to accept them though myself.

But none of this has been done.

What was that about door labeling, haven't heard about that?

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Denying-History » Sun Sep 17, 2017 9:20 am

blake121666 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:I'm pretty sure I remember you telling Rollo that the gassing process would work. Though i guess I made a wrong assumption on the last part.


No. I think my argument was probably something along the line of: if the dosage used was such that a concentration of at least 2000 ppm could reach any part of the room in about 15 minutes or so, then the claimed scenario would have some merit.


Maybe, I am not sure, its been a while since I have checked out Rodoh.

blake121666 wrote:I say this because it is claimed that the 1-minute LC50 of HCN is 2000 ppm (used to be 3200 ppm - I looked it up). So if any part of the room had this concentration or above, then I would think a person in that environment would die in under a minute (or so - that question is somewhat iffy as well). So the question becomes: what dosage would give this? Its not a very easy question to answer. It could very well fall inline with what is alleged
.

Idk, Pressac suggest concentrations around 12-20 g/m3 which is if I remember correctly is a released amount of 1,500 (out of 1%) and 2,500 (out of 1.6%). Considering 1 g/m3 equal to 833 ppm. Roberto seems to suggest at a temperature above 20 degrees Celsius the concentration would be around 3.31 g/m3 or 3.88 g/m3:

At a temperature of 20 centigrade, evaporation would have occurred much faster..."the greatest part, nearly all" of the Zyklon B evaporated within 30 minutes at an ambient temperature of 20 centigrade. roughly one-sixth of the substance would have evaporated after five minutes, making for a concentration of 1.98 g/m or 2.33 g/m - 6 or 7 times the lethal concentration...cut the evaporation time and accordingly increased the gas concentration after 5 minutes evaporation by almost 70 %, it seems reasonable to assume that, at a far higher temperature well above the boiling point, the concentration after 5 minutes would be higher by at least the same factor - 3.31 g/m3 or 3,88 g/m3, 10 to almost 12 times the lethal concentration.


http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2012/06/reconstructing-message-to-jonnie.html

I would agree about the 2,000 ppm figure though 1% has been described as almost immediately fatal before.

blake121666 wrote:[But the best way to answer such a question is to do actual tests with animals - which could be scaled down of course. Don't use dogs though - they have a very low tolerance to HCN. Since rats have a higher tolerance than humans, I suggest using them so that one could say: We even used rats and this worked, it would've then worked on humans.


I'm pretty sure a good number of Animal tests have been done, the CDC actually suggests:

The chosen IDLH is based on the statements by Patty [1963] that 45 to 54 ppm is "tolerated by man for 0.5 to 1 hour without immediate or late effects; 110 to 135 ppm, however, may be fatal after 0.5 to 1 hour or later, or dangerous to life [Flury and Zernik 1931; Dudley et al. 1942]."


https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/idlh/74908.html
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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby blake121666 » Thu Sep 21, 2017 2:08 am

Denying-History wrote:
blake121666 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:I'm pretty sure I remember you telling Rollo that the gassing process would work. Though i guess I made a wrong assumption on the last part.


No. I think my argument was probably something along the line of: if the dosage used was such that a concentration of at least 2000 ppm could reach any part of the room in about 15 minutes or so, then the claimed scenario would have some merit.


Maybe, I am not sure, its been a while since I have checked out Rodoh.

blake121666 wrote:I say this because it is claimed that the 1-minute LC50 of HCN is 2000 ppm (used to be 3200 ppm - I looked it up). So if any part of the room had this concentration or above, then I would think a person in that environment would die in under a minute (or so - that question is somewhat iffy as well). So the question becomes: what dosage would give this? Its not a very easy question to answer. It could very well fall inline with what is alleged
.

Idk, Pressac suggest concentrations around 12-20 g/m3 which is if I remember correctly is a released amount of 1,500 (out of 1%) and 2,500 (out of 1.6%). Considering 1 g/m3 equal to 833 ppm. Roberto seems to suggest at a temperature above 20 degrees Celsius the concentration would be around 3.31 g/m3 or 3.88 g/m3:

At a temperature of 20 centigrade, evaporation would have occurred much faster..."the greatest part, nearly all" of the Zyklon B evaporated within 30 minutes at an ambient temperature of 20 centigrade. roughly one-sixth of the substance would have evaporated after five minutes, making for a concentration of 1.98 g/m or 2.33 g/m - 6 or 7 times the lethal concentration...cut the evaporation time and accordingly increased the gas concentration after 5 minutes evaporation by almost 70 %, it seems reasonable to assume that, at a far higher temperature well above the boiling point, the concentration after 5 minutes would be higher by at least the same factor - 3.31 g/m3 or 3,88 g/m3, 10 to almost 12 times the lethal concentration.


http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2012/06/reconstructing-message-to-jonnie.html

I would agree about the 2,000 ppm figure though 1% has been described as almost immediately fatal before.

blake121666 wrote:[But the best way to answer such a question is to do actual tests with animals - which could be scaled down of course. Don't use dogs though - they have a very low tolerance to HCN. Since rats have a higher tolerance than humans, I suggest using them so that one could say: We even used rats and this worked, it would've then worked on humans.


I'm pretty sure a good number of Animal tests have been done, the CDC actually suggests:

The chosen IDLH is based on the statements by Patty [1963] that 45 to 54 ppm is "tolerated by man for 0.5 to 1 hour without immediate or late effects; 110 to 135 ppm, however, may be fatal after 0.5 to 1 hour or later, or dangerous to life [Flury and Zernik 1931; Dudley et al. 1942]."


https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/idlh/74908.html


No, you aren't getting the complexity of what I mean.

BTW, I've read a pretty large number of animal studies on the issue. Here is one that I posted here on this board in reply to you or someone else here ... don't recall:

http://toxsci.oxfordjournals.org/content/138/1/205.full.pdf

I discussed it a little bit both here and on rodoh at
https://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2542&p=87682#p87595

The question of what exactly will ensure killing everyone is up for grabs. The US gas executions suggest it might not be what we would assume.

There of course is also the question of the dynamics of the gas propagation. Pressac never anywhere in his book considered the diffusion of the gas. In other words, if Pressac says 1 kg dosage in a 100 m^3 room, he then just assumes a uniform concentration of (1,000 g)/(100 m^3) = 10 g/m^3 is instantly the case everywhere in the room. Of course that is not the case. The gas diffuses out from its source - high concentrations near the source and low concentrations at the wavefront.

And it takes time to build the concentration levels at distances from the source. HCN diffuses very very rapidly but not infinitely fast. That is one reason why delousings take a little bit of time even with a blower, and of course fumigations w/o a blower take much longer. This is most likely also why US execution times average about 10 minutes and not the 1 minute they should. If one doesn't intake enough gas in the execution chamber as the concentrated cloud wafts by, you might have to breathe in more until you finally get the lethal dose.

There are of course other factors. The best route to go is to run scaled tests on rats - testing all variables. While it would be easy to either prove or disprove theoretically what is alleged, that of course isn't good enough. This one needs specific empirical results.

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Denying-History » Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:23 pm

blake121666 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
blake121666 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:I'm pretty sure I remember you telling Rollo that the gassing process would work. Though i guess I made a wrong assumption on the last part.


No. I think my argument was probably something along the line of: if the dosage used was such that a concentration of at least 2000 ppm could reach any part of the room in about 15 minutes or so, then the claimed scenario would have some merit.


Maybe, I am not sure, its been a while since I have checked out Rodoh.

blake121666 wrote:I say this because it is claimed that the 1-minute LC50 of HCN is 2000 ppm (used to be 3200 ppm - I looked it up). So if any part of the room had this concentration or above, then I would think a person in that environment would die in under a minute (or so - that question is somewhat iffy as well). So the question becomes: what dosage would give this? Its not a very easy question to answer. It could very well fall inline with what is alleged
.

Idk, Pressac suggest concentrations around 12-20 g/m3 which is if I remember correctly is a released amount of 1,500 (out of 1%) and 2,500 (out of 1.6%). Considering 1 g/m3 equal to 833 ppm. Roberto seems to suggest at a temperature above 20 degrees Celsius the concentration would be around 3.31 g/m3 or 3.88 g/m3:

At a temperature of 20 centigrade, evaporation would have occurred much faster..."the greatest part, nearly all" of the Zyklon B evaporated within 30 minutes at an ambient temperature of 20 centigrade. roughly one-sixth of the substance would have evaporated after five minutes, making for a concentration of 1.98 g/m or 2.33 g/m - 6 or 7 times the lethal concentration...cut the evaporation time and accordingly increased the gas concentration after 5 minutes evaporation by almost 70 %, it seems reasonable to assume that, at a far higher temperature well above the boiling point, the concentration after 5 minutes would be higher by at least the same factor - 3.31 g/m3 or 3,88 g/m3, 10 to almost 12 times the lethal concentration.


http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2012/06/reconstructing-message-to-jonnie.html

I would agree about the 2,000 ppm figure though 1% has been described as almost immediately fatal before.

blake121666 wrote:[But the best way to answer such a question is to do actual tests with animals - which could be scaled down of course. Don't use dogs though - they have a very low tolerance to HCN. Since rats have a higher tolerance than humans, I suggest using them so that one could say: We even used rats and this worked, it would've then worked on humans.


I'm pretty sure a good number of Animal tests have been done, the CDC actually suggests:

The chosen IDLH is based on the statements by Patty [1963] that 45 to 54 ppm is "tolerated by man for 0.5 to 1 hour without immediate or late effects; 110 to 135 ppm, however, may be fatal after 0.5 to 1 hour or later, or dangerous to life [Flury and Zernik 1931; Dudley et al. 1942]."


https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/idlh/74908.html


No, you aren't getting the complexity of what I mean.

BTW, I've read a pretty large number of animal studies on the issue. Here is one that I posted here on this board in reply to you or someone else here ... don't recall:

http://toxsci.oxfordjournals.org/content/138/1/205.full.pdf

I discussed it a little bit both here and on rodoh at
https://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2542&p=87682#p87595

The question of what exactly will ensure killing everyone is up for grabs. The US gas executions suggest it might not be what we would assume.

There of course is also the question of the dynamics of the gas propagation. Pressac never anywhere in his book considered the diffusion of the gas. In other words, if Pressac says 1 kg dosage in a 100 m^3 room, he then just assumes a uniform concentration of (1,000 g)/(100 m^3) = 10 g/m^3 is instantly the case everywhere in the room. Of course that is not the case. The gas diffuses out from its source - high concentrations near the source and low concentrations at the wavefront.

And it takes time to build the concentration levels at distances from the source. HCN diffuses very very rapidly but not infinitely fast. That is one reason why delousings take a little bit of time even with a blower, and of course fumigations w/o a blower take much longer. This is most likely also why US execution times average about 10 minutes and not the 1 minute they should. If one doesn't intake enough gas in the execution chamber as the concentrated cloud wafts by, you might have to breathe in more until you finally get the lethal dose.

There are of course other factors. The best route to go is to run scaled tests on rats - testing all variables. While it would be easy to either prove or disprove theoretically what is alleged, that of course isn't good enough. This one needs specific empirical results.

I get what you meant, you want to look at dosage for the individual to die which in my opinion is irrelevant at concentrations that were mentioned above.

Yet when discussing Pressac that's irrelevant to the room concentration estimate he released.

Mind though this is all relative. Take for example that 500 cu m, is the area of L1 of K2. Alstine Simulated the concentration by assuming 1kg is equal to 2 g cu m. The same formula that Pressac used to reach 12 g/m3 with Hoess's estimate of 5-7 kg of zyklon-b.

Regardless I'll pass on playing the dosage game though.
Last edited by Denying-History on Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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blake121666
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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby blake121666 » Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:23 am

Denying-History wrote:I get what you meant, you want to look at dosage for the individual to die which in my opinion is irrelevant at concentrations that were mentioned above.

Yet when discussing Pressac that's irrelevant to the room concentration estimate he released.

Mind though this is all relative. Take for example that 500 cu m, is the area of L1 of K2. Alstine Simulated the concentration by assuming 1kg is equal to 2 g cu m. The same formula that Pressac used to reach 12 g/m3 with Hoess's estimate of 5-7 kg of zyklon-b.

Regardless I'll pass on playing the dosage game though.


I think you're a little confused in the terminology being used here. There are 2 "dosages" being referenced here:

1. The amount of Zyklon used for a mass gassing = the dosage for that gassing
2. The amount of HCN that a person inhales is the dose to kill that person.

The alleged gassing is:

1. Zyklon is exposed at areas in a room
2. HCN evaporates off the Zyklon pellets - relatively slowly w.r.t. its diffusion through the air
3. That evaporated HCN diffuses throughout the room - creating increasing concentrations
4. Persons within the room inhale the concentration in the area that person is in.

In US execution gas chambers the scenario is:

1. HCN is generated in a pot under the person to be executed
2. It quickly diffuses out from this pot - its concentration rapidly decreasing from the source.

This execution procedure of filling an entire room with HCN gas for ONE PERSON to inhale a teeny tiny bit of that gas is a bit silly. One should just put a mask on the person with a tube leading to bottled gas. The executioner would then turn the valve on the gas and whenever the executee inhales, he would be sure to inhale a lethal amount because that is all he would be ABLE to inhale. But nevertheless, this is what is done. And from this we see that it takes an average of 10 minutes for executees to die in this procedure. One could analyze the reason for that as being pertinent to the alleged Zyklon gassings. That is what is being done nowadays.

What dosage the alleged Zyklon gassings would require is thought to be much higher from the Revisionist perspective. Scaled tests should be done with rats to see if that is the case. I don't see why Germar Rudolf does not do these tests. They wouldn't be very difficult to do - nor that expensive.

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Balmoral95 » Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:54 am

>"That is what is being done nowadays."

Where exactly?

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby blake121666 » Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:20 pm

Balmoral95 wrote:>"That is what is being done nowadays."

Where exactly?


This is what Rudolf has been saying for many years. I think it is this video calling for this to be done:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vi1AtKtPrXM

The general idea is that a large enough concentration will not reach each and every part of the space within the room where this procedure is done in a suitable timeframe to ensure the death of each person in the room.

So this is one of the current scientific bases for denial of homicidal Zyklon gassings at Auschwitz Kremas.

The initial dosage would have to scale as the cube root of the volume of the room. And the evaporation rate would depend on the temperature. So run some tests with rats in different volumes and at different temperatures with different initial dosages of Zyklon (or equivalent) and see how long it would take for the rats to die. Rudolf suspects that the dosages required are at least an order of magnitude higher than alleged.

EDIT: It took me multiple edits to figure out exactly how youtube videos can be embedded on this board.
Last edited by blake121666 on Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:31 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Balmoral95
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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Balmoral95 » Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:49 pm

blake121666 wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:>"That is what is being done nowadays."

Where exactly?


This is what Rudolf has been saying for many years. I think it is this video calling for this to be done:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vi1AtKtPrXM&feature=em-comments

The general idea is that a large enough concentration will not reach each and every part of the space within the room where this procedure is done in a suitable timeframe to ensure the death of each person in the room.

So this is one of the current scientific bases for denial of homicidal Zyklon gassings at Auschwitz Kremas.

The initial dosage would have to scale as the cube root of the volume of the room. And the evaporation rate would depend on the temperature. So run some tests with rats in different volumes and at different temperatures with different initial dosages of Zyklon (or equivalent) and see how long it would take for the rats to die. Rudolf suspects that the dosages required are at least an order of magnitude higher than alleged.

EDIT: I see that the video shows for me but not for others ... must be because I commented on it. The video was called: "The ultimate Holocaust Gas Chamber Challenge". It might be available elsewhere. Aaron Richards, who I think posts here, knows of this video. He and I posted a couple comments back and forth.


All of which has nothing to do with my question. :lol:


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