Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

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Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Thu Sep 07, 2017 5:54 pm

This is what a news report about an auction says:

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/mein- ... le/2633105

The sale also includes items from the Holocaust. One notable book is the primer for concentration camp gassings: "Sterilization, Decontamination and Disinfection Employment Instructions for Hospital and Laboratory of the Hygiene Institute of the Waffen-SS, Book 3."
Also: German instructions on building a gas chamber.


Looking closely at this auction's catalog, we see there are three relevant items:

Image

What do the forum's experts think about it?
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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Denying-History » Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:30 pm

No manual existed to my understanding. The gas chambers were built on a basic principle that was stolen mainly from the disinfection chambers.
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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:40 pm

This blueprint(s) from this company Degesch, and this book by Dr Dotzer, are all these things previously known? I don't know much about gas chambers and their construction, this is why I'm asking.

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Sep 07, 2017 7:27 pm

Kleon_I XYZ Contagion wrote:This blueprint(s) from this company Degesch, and this book by Dr Dotzer, are all these things previously known? I don't know much about gas chambers and their construction, this is why I'm asking.



The blueprints have been around awhile, Degesh is the company that made Zyclon B.

The other, I don't know.

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Denying-History » Thu Sep 07, 2017 7:30 pm

Kleon_I XYZ Contagion wrote:This blueprint(s) from this company Degesch, and this book by Dr Dotzer, are all these things previously known? I don't know much about gas chambers and their construction, this is why I'm asking.


The gas chambers were constructed form the design of a morgue. As for not knowing much a swift reading from Pressac of any chapter on the gas chambers should fix that. However to shorten your reading here is a short bit from Piper:

In technical terms, the gas chambers were utterly simple equipment: they functioned on the principle of a closed space into which poison gas could be introduced. Any sort of stationary or mobile structure could be used for this purpose. Showers or steam-baths were used in the euthanasia centers, specially constructed trucks in Chełmno (Kulmhof), barracks in Treblinka, and, for a time, two farmhouses in Brzezinka (Birkenau).

Minor modifications, consisting mostly of eliminating all openings, make it possible to turn any room into a gas chamber. Sophistic considerations presenting the process of killing people with poison gas, and more specifically Zyklon-B, as a complex technical undertaking requiring means beyond those at the disposal of the camp (as encountered mainly in the literature of the neo-Nazi deniers), are an attempt at manipulating simple facts, and basically amount to deliberate deception.


And an even shorter piece from Gotz Aly:

Whereas the Operation T-4 gas chambers and the gas vans of the Lange Special Commando Unit used carbon monoxide discharged from gas canisters, these deaths represented a further development of the procedure, 'since it was impossible to transport CO canisters to Russia'. Widmann channelled the exhaust of two running automobile engines into a provisionally sealed laboratory room for his experiment in Mogilev The patients died after approximately 15 minutes. This procedure was deemed especially feasible, "because any random room could be used for this procedure, and motor vehicles were available everywhere'
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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Balmoral95 » Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:06 am

Berg and Smith at RODOH will (have) blather(ed) endlessly about this. Smith as well at AHF ca. 2002-4.

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Denying-History » Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:24 pm

Balmoral95 wrote:Berg and Smith at RODOH will (have) blather(ed) endlessly about this. Smith as well at AHF ca. 2002-4.


Lol that reminds me of his claim about Mathausens gas van and the order for carbon monoxide canisters.
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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby blake121666 » Sat Sep 09, 2017 4:06 pm

Kleon_I XYZ Contagion wrote:This is what a news report about an auction says:

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/mein- ... le/2633105

The sale also includes items from the Holocaust. One notable book is the primer for concentration camp gassings: "Sterilization, Decontamination and Disinfection Employment Instructions for Hospital and Laboratory of the Hygiene Institute of the Waffen-SS, Book 3."
Also: German instructions on building a gas chamber.


Looking closely at this auction's catalog, we see there are three relevant items:

Image

What do the forum's experts think about it?


I'll run down your list with what I know of these things.

Number 876 on your list is a German wartime book on sanitary measures - as claimed there. Part of that book has to do with Zyklon fumigations of buildings and is the part that Faurisson attempted to hand-wave the bogus claim that it implies the exact opposite of what it in fact says. Zyklon fumigations are not explosive. HCN diffuses through the air more quickly than it evaporates off the Zyklon substrate in any sensible scenario of use and therefore dissipates too quickly to build up to an explosive concentration. It is not of course a primer of "gassing of Jews" - but one could very well view it that way if one believes the claims that the Zyklon fumigation procedures were adapted to gas Jews - which is of course what is claimed.

Number 877 on your list is a blueprint of a Degesch delousing machine. I'm pretty sure that particular one is indeed the one that Berg has brought up and shown countless times. This is a blueprint for machines exactly like the ones in the delousing rooms of Dachau. I've never heard it claimed that such type machines were used in any of the alleged gassing of persons. One of Berg's claims is that such WOULD have been the case. This is of course debatable.


Number 878 on your list is a later adaptation of the previous machine design. I'm pretty sure I've come across this one as well. Nothing particularly remarkable about the difference between these 2 - a somewhat different circulation and ventilation employed with this one.

If you have money to burn, by all means buy them. I wouldn't mind having these; but I don't have money to burn!

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Denying-History » Sat Sep 09, 2017 4:12 pm

blake121666 wrote:
Kleon_I XYZ Contagion wrote:This is what a news report about an auction says:

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/mein- ... le/2633105

The sale also includes items from the Holocaust. One notable book is the primer for concentration camp gassings: "Sterilization, Decontamination and Disinfection Employment Instructions for Hospital and Laboratory of the Hygiene Institute of the Waffen-SS, Book 3."
Also: German instructions on building a gas chamber.


Looking closely at this auction's catalog, we see there are three relevant items:

Image

What do the forum's experts think about it?


I'll run down your list with what I know of these things.

Number 876 on your list is a German wartime book on sanitary measures - as claimed there. Part of that book has to do with Zyklon fumigations of buildings and is the part that Faurisson attempted to hand-wave the bogus claim that it implies the exact opposite of what it in fact says. Zyklon fumigations are not explosive. HCN diffuses through the air more quickly than it evaporates off the Zyklon substrate in any sensible scenario of use and therefore dissipates too quickly to build up to an explosive concentration. It is not of course a primer of "gassing of Jews" - but one could very well view it that way if one believes the claims that the Zyklon fumigation procedures were adapted to gas Jews - which is of course what is claimed.

Number 877 on your list is a blueprint of a Degesch delousing machine. I'm pretty sure that particular one is indeed the one that Berg has brought up and shown countless times. This is a blueprint for machines exactly like the ones in the delousing rooms of Dachau. I've never heard it claimed that such type machines were used in any of the alleged gassing of persons. One of Berg's claims is that such WOULD have been the case. This is of course debatable.


Number 878 on your list is a later adaptation of the previous machine design. I'm pretty sure I've come across this one as well. Nothing particularly remarkable about the difference between these 2 - a somewhat different circulation and ventilation employed with this one.

If you have money to burn, by all means buy them. I wouldn't mind having these; but I don't have money to burn!


Buying disinfection manuals when we already have enough of them for free? And also have the perfect release time to show at 15 degrees calculus in the gas chambers that people could be exposed to lethal levels between 5 to 15 minutes. Honestly seems worthless to me.
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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Sat Sep 09, 2017 5:14 pm

Thank you all for your contribution. Of course, I was going to buy anything of these items. I have a strange hobby browsing auctions' catalogs sometimes, one can find many interesting things there.

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby blake121666 » Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:04 pm

Denying-History wrote:Buying disinfection manuals when we already have enough of them for free? And also have the perfect release time to show at 15 degrees calculus in the gas chambers that people could be exposed to lethal levels between 5 to 15 minutes. Honestly seems worthless to me.


Such is still up for debate. There is no exactness in anything you've postulated here. And US gas executions give quite valid skepticism to what you believe to be "lethal levels between 5 to 15 minutes".

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby scrmbldggs » Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:12 pm

blake121666 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:Buying disinfection manuals when we already have enough of them for free? And also have the perfect release time to show at 15 degrees calculus in the gas chambers that people could be exposed to lethal levels between 5 to 15 minutes. Honestly seems worthless to me.


Such is still up for debate. There is no exactness in anything you've postulated here. And US gas executions give quite valid skepticism to what you believe to be "lethal levels between 5 to 15 minutes".

Yeah but, what does it look like if one exchanges "calculus' for "Celsius"? :-P
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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Denying-History » Sat Sep 09, 2017 10:35 pm

blake121666 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:Buying disinfection manuals when we already have enough of them for free? And also have the perfect release time to show at 15 degrees calculus in the gas chambers that people could be exposed to lethal levels between 5 to 15 minutes. Honestly seems worthless to me.


Such is still up for debate. There is no exactness in anything you've postulated here. And US gas executions give quite valid skepticism to what you believe to be "lethal levels between 5 to 15 minutes".


Blake, come on people are not marked death in a US gas chamber until their heart stops. The two are a poor comparison especially even based on the basic concept of what Piper said. The gas chambers were not created for that reason, but were based on the construction of a morgue. The room was clearly not a morgue on the simple fact that the room has Cyanide residue within its walls.

Also mind that THHP has already pointed out Irmscher's paper:

http://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-history.org/works/irmscher-1942/

Do you deny Gassings happened in Krema 2, 3, and 5 or not? (skipping 4)
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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby blake121666 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:06 am

Denying-History wrote:
blake121666 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:Buying disinfection manuals when we already have enough of them for free? And also have the perfect release time to show at 15 degrees calculus in the gas chambers that people could be exposed to lethal levels between 5 to 15 minutes. Honestly seems worthless to me.


Such is still up for debate. There is no exactness in anything you've postulated here. And US gas executions give quite valid skepticism to what you believe to be "lethal levels between 5 to 15 minutes".


Blake, come on people are not marked death in a US gas chamber until their heart stops. The two are a poor comparison especially even based on the basic concept of what Piper said. The gas chambers were not created for that reason, but were based on the construction of a morgue. The room was clearly not a morgue on the simple fact that the room has Cyanide residue within its walls.

Also mind that THHP has already pointed out Irmscher's paper:

http://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-history.org/works/irmscher-1942/

Do you deny Gassings happened in Krema 2, 3, and 5 or not? (skipping 4)


I currently deny all gassings (other than T4. I think Hans gave me good enough proof of that). If not, then I wouldn't consider myself a "denier" but merely a skeptical revisionist.

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:14 am

blake121666 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
blake121666 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:Buying disinfection manuals when we already have enough of them for free? And also have the perfect release time to show at 15 degrees calculus in the gas chambers that people could be exposed to lethal levels between 5 to 15 minutes. Honestly seems worthless to me.


Such is still up for debate. There is no exactness in anything you've postulated here. And US gas executions give quite valid skepticism to what you believe to be "lethal levels between 5 to 15 minutes".


Blake, come on people are not marked death in a US gas chamber until their heart stops. The two are a poor comparison especially even based on the basic concept of what Piper said. The gas chambers were not created for that reason, but were based on the construction of a morgue. The room was clearly not a morgue on the simple fact that the room has Cyanide residue within its walls.

Also mind that THHP has already pointed out Irmscher's paper:

http://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-history.org/works/irmscher-1942/

Do you deny Gassings happened in Krema 2, 3, and 5 or not? (skipping 4)


I currently deny all gassings (other than T4. I think Hans gave me good enough proof of that). If not, then I wouldn't consider myself a "denier" but merely a skeptical revisionist.



Interesting. So, what about the mass shootings of Jews on the Eastern Front? Do you also deny those?

Also, why would you deny the gassing of Jews if you accept them for T-4? Wouldn't it make sense to apply the lessons they learned to embrace Jews when it became their time?

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby blake121666 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:23 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
blake121666 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
blake121666 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:Buying disinfection manuals when we already have enough of them for free? And also have the perfect release time to show at 15 degrees calculus in the gas chambers that people could be exposed to lethal levels between 5 to 15 minutes. Honestly seems worthless to me.


Such is still up for debate. There is no exactness in anything you've postulated here. And US gas executions give quite valid skepticism to what you believe to be "lethal levels between 5 to 15 minutes".


Blake, come on people are not marked death in a US gas chamber until their heart stops. The two are a poor comparison especially even based on the basic concept of what Piper said. The gas chambers were not created for that reason, but were based on the construction of a morgue. The room was clearly not a morgue on the simple fact that the room has Cyanide residue within its walls.

Also mind that THHP has already pointed out Irmscher's paper:

http://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-history.org/works/irmscher-1942/

Do you deny Gassings happened in Krema 2, 3, and 5 or not? (skipping 4)


I currently deny all gassings (other than T4. I think Hans gave me good enough proof of that). If not, then I wouldn't consider myself a "denier" but merely a skeptical revisionist.



Interesting. So, what about the mass shootings of Jews on the Eastern Front? Do you also deny those?

Also, why would you deny the gassing of Jews if you accept them for T-4? Wouldn't it make sense to apply the lessons they learned to embrace Jews when it became their time?


Deniers don't deny mass shootings on the Eastern Front. The numbers could be inflated though.

I would only connect T-4 to the alleged gassings if I believed the alleged gassings. They are completely different in practically every way. But if I were to accept AR gassings, then I suppose the link to T-4 could be made. The other direction is more difficult.

AFAIK deniers generally accept the T-4 gassings anyway. I'm the only one I know with a pet theory that they were bogus as well.

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:30 am

blake121666 wrote:Deniers don't deny mass shootings on the Eastern Front.

LOL.

Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

How about mass slaughters of Jews (at least 1.5 million victims) and destruction of Jewish communities throughout the occupied East? Do they deny this? Or do you want to play word games here?

blake121666 wrote:The numbers could be inflated though.

By whom? To what end?

How would one find out if the numbers, as you put it, are inflated?
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby blake121666 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:36 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
blake121666 wrote:Deniers don't deny mass shootings on the Eastern Front.

LOL

Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

blake121666 wrote:The numbers could be inflated though.

By whom? To what end?

How would one find out if the numbers, as you put it, are inflated?


I'm not that interested in the EG, actually. Isn't it claimed that the EG reports are ridiculously inflated in number killed? What number of killed Jews do you assign to Eastern shootings (altogether, EG and all the rest)?

EDIT: But if Monstrous denies this, who am I to argue? He's a Metapedia scholar! :D
Last edited by blake121666 on Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Balmoral95 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:41 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
blake121666 wrote:Deniers don't deny mass shootings on the Eastern Front.

LOL

Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

blake121666 wrote:The numbers could be inflated though.

By whom? To what end?

How would one find out if the numbers, as you put it, are inflated?


Seriously, Blake?

As your to last question, try a library, as onerous a task as that may be.

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:43 am

blake121666 wrote:I'm not that interested in the EG, actually.

Then don't write stupid things about the EGs, police battalions, Waffen SS and Wehrmacht in the east, okay? We have one of our longest thread in this subforum with deniers denying these murders - and, well, Graf. . .

I would guess anyone claiming deniers don't deny these murders would eventually not want to be "interested in" them. Your not being interested in 1.5-2.0 million murders, and the decimation of eastern Jewry more or less disqualifies you on matters involving the genocide as a whole.

blake121666 wrote:Isn't it claimed that the EG reports are ridiculously inflated in number killed?

I don't know. What do you think? Btw, why would commanders of units in the East inflate the numbers killed in their operations, in reports to Berlin, if Berlin didn't want high numbers killed?

blake121666 wrote:What number of killed Jews do you assign to Eastern shootings (altogether, EG and all the rest)?

North of 1.5 million. (Hilberg estimated IIRC around 1.4 million, Gerlach higher, Nick Terry - whose research I have no reason to doubt - I believe puts the death toll at about 2 million.)
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:49 am, edited 2 times in total.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:48 am

blake121666 wrote:EDIT: But if Monstrous denies this, who am I to argue? He's a Metapedia scholar! :D

Your claim is intentionally misleading - and demonstrably false. Besides, the thread I linked to drew in other deniers besides Monstrous to deny the widespread mass shooting of Jews in the East - and, of course, there's Graf.

Metapedia. Pfffft.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:50 am

Balmoral95 wrote:. . . try a library, as onerous a task as that may be.

These guys struggle with books. He could just skim the darned thread I linked to.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Balmoral95 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:53 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:. . . try a library, as onerous a task as that may be.

These guys struggle with books. He could just skim the darned thread I linked to.


Troll BS. Complete with faux "aw shucks".

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby blake121666 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:55 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:. . . try a library, as onerous a task as that may be.

These guys struggle with books. He could just skim the darned thread I linked to.


So my asking you for your personal estimate is: "try a library". Where might I find YOUR estimate in a library? I told you, I'm not interested in death estimates from EG. You brought it up, not I. And you don't agree with everything out there.

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:56 am

blake121666 wrote:I would only connect T-4 to the alleged gassings if I believed the alleged gassings. They are completely different in practically every way.


Only the delivery systems were different and then only in Germany. T-4 killings utilized bottled Carbon Monoxide gas, the switch occurs in Poland and the USSR by using Carbon Monoxide generated by internal combustion engines. Even the first prototype gas vans used bottled Carbon Monoxide gas that was discarded as impractical.

Auschwitz I and Birkenau used Zyclon B (along with a few other camps) but the primary killing method was Carbon Monoxide.

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby blake121666 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:58 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
blake121666 wrote:I would only connect T-4 to the alleged gassings if I believed the alleged gassings. They are completely different in practically every way.


Only the delivery systems were different and then only in Germany. T-4 killings utilized bottled Carbon Monoxide gas, the switch occurs in Poland and the USSR by using Carbon Monoxide generated by internal combustion engines. Even the first prototype gas vans used bottled Carbon Monoxide gas that was discarded as impractical.

Auschwitz I and Birkenau used Zyclon B (along with a few other camps) but the primary killing method was Carbon Monoxide.


You seem to be equating Jews with "life unworthy of life". You don't see a difference there? Or in the logisitcs? Or in any of a number of other ways?

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:00 am

blake121666 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:. . . try a library, as onerous a task as that may be.

These guys struggle with books. He could just skim the darned thread I linked to.


So my asking you for your personal estimate is: "try a library".

I didn't tell you to try a library - that was Balmoral answering a question I posted. Besides I told you: 1.5-2.0 million. Can't you read?

blake121666 wrote:Where might I find YOUR estimate in a library?

You will find it in my posts in reply to yours. You can't be for real.

blake121666 wrote:I told you, I'm not interested in death estimates from EG. You brought it up, not I. And you don't agree with everything out there.

No, you brought it up. Don't lie about this. You posted, after misstating what deniers deny, "The numbers could be inflated though." So I asked you about it.

Obviously, typing out such BS, you are now "not interested." LOL

In fact, the burden is on you, as Balmoral suggested, to tell us what you mean by "inflated" - what are the better estimates, what are the inflated estimates, who overestimated and why, and why would commanders give high numbers to superiors in Berlin.

But you're not interested in the issue you brought up. Right, got it.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:15 am, edited 2 times in total.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:09 am

blake121666 wrote:. . . T-4 gassings anyway . . . a pet theory that they were bogus . . .

You guys have so many pet theories.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:12 am

blake121666 wrote:You seem to be equating . . .

You seem to be fleeing two claims you made in this thread within minutes of making them . . .
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:21 am

blake121666 wrote:You seem to be equating Jews with "life unworthy of life".


Excuse me. I need to take a moment to pick my jaw up off the floor.

There, that's better.

You don't see a difference there?


With the sworn ideological enemy of Hitler? You mean the fact there's even more of an incentive to get rid of them than a few mentally and physically ill Germans?

Hey, Blake? Think about this:
One of the reasons that T-4 became so urgent after the war started was the fact that Hitler (and others) believed it an utter waste of resources, food and space to house, clothe and feed mentally and physically disabled people.

Now, it's not a huge jump in logic to transfer that to the Jews. One of the driving forces behind the building of Chelmno and the Reinhard Camps was to eliminate useless eaters in food deficit areas.

See how that leap works, Blake? At that point food (and lack thereof) becomes the driving force behind the mass killings in the Warthgau and the General Government. Add to the fact that virulent antisemitism was a pillar of National Socialism and you have a nice recipe for genocide. A bonus to all this is you still get to work young, relatively healthy Polish Jews as hard as you want.

Or in the logisitcs?


What "logistics?" Most of the victims of the Holocaust were local Eastern Jews that died fairly close to their homes. There was no logistical problem, the trains were low priority and compared to regular traffic there were very few of them. It was worth it to transport useless Jews to their deaths.

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby blake121666 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:26 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
blake121666 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:. . . try a library, as onerous a task as that may be.

These guys struggle with books. He could just skim the darned thread I linked to.


So my asking you for your personal estimate is: "try a library".

I didn't tell you to try a library - that was Balmoral answering a question I posted. Besides I told you: 1.5-2.0 million. Can't you read?

blake121666 wrote:Where might I find YOUR estimate in a library?

You will find it in my posts in reply to yours. You can't be for real.

blake121666 wrote:I told you, I'm not interested in death estimates from EG. You brought it up, not I. And you don't agree with everything out there.

No, you brought it up. Don't lie about this. You posted, after misstating what deniers deny, "The numbers could be inflated though." So I asked you about it.

Obviously, typing out such BS, you are now "not interested." LOL

In fact, the burden is on you, as Balmoral suggested, to tell us what you mean by "inflated" - what are the better estimates, what are the inflated estimates, who overestimated and why, and why would commanders give high numbers to superiors in Berlin.

But you're not interested in the issue you brought up. Right, got it.


I didn't bring it up and you like to bicker. Nothing but bickering from you so far.

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby blake121666 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:27 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
blake121666 wrote:. . . T-4 gassings anyway . . . a pet theory that they were bogus . . .

You guys have so many pet theories.


I have another that you are probably quite clueless of what "statistical mechanics" entails. Am I right about that? :D
Last edited by blake121666 on Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby blake121666 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:27 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
blake121666 wrote:You seem to be equating . . .

You seem to be fleeing two claims you made in this thread within minutes of making them . . .


Which ones?

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby blake121666 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:28 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
blake121666 wrote:You seem to be equating Jews with "life unworthy of life".


Excuse me. I need to take a moment to pick my jaw up off the floor.

There, that's better.

You don't see a difference there?


With the sworn ideological enemy of Hitler? You mean the fact there's even more of an incentive to get rid of them than a few mentally and physically ill Germans?

Hey, Blake? Think about this:
One of the reasons that T-4 became so urgent after the war started was the fact that Hitler (and others) believed it an utter waste of resources, food and space to house, clothe and feed mentally and physically disabled people.

Now, it's not a huge jump in logic to transfer that to the Jews. One of the driving forces behind the building of Chelmno and the Reinhard Camps was to eliminate useless eaters in food deficit areas.

See how that leap works, Blake? At that point food (and lack thereof) becomes the driving force behind the mass killings in the Warthgau and the General Government. Add to the fact that virulent antisemitism was a pillar of National Socialism and you have a nice recipe for genocide. A bonus to all this is you still get to work young, relatively healthy Polish Jews as hard as you want.

Or in the logisitcs?


What "logistics?" Most of the victims of the Holocaust were local Eastern Jews that died fairly close to their homes. There was no logistical problem, the trains were low priority and compared to regular traffic there were very few of them. It was worth it to transport useless Jews to their deaths.


It seems you guys have pet theories as well. Noted.

The logistics of T4 vs the other alleged gassings is quite different is what I meant of course.

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:34 am

blake121666 wrote:I didn't bring it up and you like to bicker. Nothing but bickering from you so far.

blake, you brought it up - "The numbers could be inflated though." Now you're lying so you don't have to defend an absurdity. And jabbering about "bickering." Transparent BS.

Show us where I posted about the numbers of EG victims before you wrote, "The numbers could be inflated though." Go ahead.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby blake121666 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:36 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
blake121666 wrote:I didn't bring it up and you like to bicker. Nothing but bickering from you so far.

blake, you brought it up - "The numbers could be inflated though." Now you're lying so you don't have to defend an absurdity. And jabbering about "bickering." Transparent BS.

Show us where I posted about the numbers of EG victims before you wrote, "The numbers could be inflated though." Go ahead.


We've been through all this in Rodoh 1 for crying out loud. Do you want to go down this silly path again? Do you want me to dig out references of commanders inflating numbers?

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:39 am

blake121666 wrote:I have another that you are probably quite clueless of what "statistical mechanics" entails. Am I right about that? :D

No, you're wrong again.

But what if I were? I don't expect you know diddly about William Blake. Speaking of bickering, knock it off and answer what I asked you when you posted that the numbers of EG victims could have been inflated:

- By whom? To what end?

- How would one find out if the numbers, as you put it, are inflated?

- Why would commanders of units in the East inflate the numbers killed in their operations, in reports to Berlin, if Berlin didn't want high numbers killed?

- What are the better estimates, what are the inflated estimates, who overestimated and why?

Or we can just conclude you post BS without even thinking about it.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:42 am

blake121666 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
blake121666 wrote:I didn't bring it up and you like to bicker. Nothing but bickering from you so far.

blake, you brought it up - "The numbers could be inflated though." Now you're lying so you don't have to defend an absurdity. And jabbering about "bickering." Transparent BS.

Show us where I posted about the numbers of EG victims before you wrote, "The numbers could be inflated though." Go ahead.


We've been through all this in Rodoh 1 for crying out loud. Do you want to go down this silly path again? Do you want me to dig out references of commanders inflating numbers?

Yes, that's what I want. Because not you or anyone else has ever written anything convincing about systemic overestimates from the commanders. Also, the death toll estimates I gave you are not solely reliant on the EG reports but are based on a variety of sources.

Bear in mind: deniers say that there wasn't a Berlin policy of mass murder of the eastern Jews; yet you now want us to believe that commanders submitted inflated kill totals to their Berlin superiors. It doesn't make even a little sense: to quote Pauli (thanks to Kleon) - "That is not only not right, it is not even wrong!" You're coming up with pure gibberish.

(Thank you for dropping your lie that I brought this topic up. Baby steps.)
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:50 am

paraphrasing something Nick Terry once posted on this topic, the estimated death toll in the eastern anti-Jewish actions is derived from a variety of perpetrator documents in western as well as East European archives, as well as Romanian sources; in addition, numbers come "from postwar exhumations and investigations, diaries, underground reports, and eyewitnesses, the sum total being checked against demographics and survivor numbers depending on the republic in question."

The EG report numbers do not total to 2 million: they come up short, in part because other German and German-allied units carried out mass murders of Jews in the occupied East.

The problem you face is two fold: on the one hand, if you can show systematic overestimates sent by EG commanders to Berlin, you've implicated Berlin in mass murder and put Berlin in the position of pressing for more dead; on the other hand, the death toll of 2.0 million doesn't solely rely on EG reports (we can even use case studies for this, like Ponary or other locales), so we know the approximate number of Jews killed.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: Is there a German Army manual with 'instructions on building a gas chamber'?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:24 am

blake121666 wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
blake121666 wrote:You seem to be equating Jews with "life unworthy of life".


Excuse me. I need to take a moment to pick my jaw up off the floor.

There, that's better.

You don't see a difference there?


With the sworn ideological enemy of Hitler? You mean the fact there's even more of an incentive to get rid of them than a few mentally and physically ill Germans?

Hey, Blake? Think about this:
One of the reasons that T-4 became so urgent after the war started was the fact that Hitler (and others) believed it an utter waste of resources, food and space to house, clothe and feed mentally and physically disabled people.

Now, it's not a huge jump in logic to transfer that to the Jews. One of the driving forces behind the building of Chelmno and the Reinhard Camps was to eliminate useless eaters in food deficit areas.

See how that leap works, Blake? At that point food (and lack thereof) becomes the driving force behind the mass killings in the Warthgau and the General Government. Add to the fact that virulent antisemitism was a pillar of National Socialism and you have a nice recipe for genocide. A bonus to all this is you still get to work young, relatively healthy Polish Jews as hard as you want.

Or in the logisitcs?


What "logistics?" Most of the victims of the Holocaust were local Eastern Jews that died fairly close to their homes. There was no logistical problem, the trains were low priority and compared to regular traffic there were very few of them. It was worth it to transport useless Jews to their deaths.


It seems you guys have pet theories as well. Noted.

The logistics of T4 vs the other alleged gassings is quite different is what I meant of course.


Well, Blake. At least you stepped out of RODOH to discuss this with us. I'll give you credit for that, along with you agreeing that Jim Rizoli is an idiot.

If you want we can open threads on T-4 and the Reinhard Camps and we can discuss this elsewhere.


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