The Stalingrad Thread

Holocaust denial and related subjects.
User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 6K Posts
Posts: 6427
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

The Stalingrad Thread

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Aug 25, 2017 1:46 pm

I wanted to start a thread on the Battle of Stalingrad and begin with the initial mass bombing of Stalingrad that occurred on August 23rd, 1942.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/weaponsand ... ngrad/amp/

We focused a lot on Allied Bombing during the war, it's important to remember that the Germans did their fair share.

Even with the bombing the Germans couldn't take advantage due to spirited defense outside the city.

This always felt wasted to me, it didn't make a lot of sense (really the Battle of Stalingrad never made sense) to hammer the city into the ground. All of those ruins made excellent defense points for the Soviets and later left no shelter for the Germans trapped there. The German Army prized mobility, grinding their best units into sausage in a static battle only locked them in place with a target on their backs.

Anyway, wanted to share this. Sometimes I think we forget how much the Soviets suffered during the war.

We can use this thread to document the course of battle.

Ordinarily I don't mind leaving posts that make me look like a horse's ass because, well, I do that a lot.

But this seems to be wandering away from my original intention. The importance of Stalingrad cannot be overstated, it's where Hitler's dreams of an Eastern empire went to die.

The fault of the original post is mine, I found the story interesting and wanted to post it. Therefore the error over numbers is mine and mine alone. Upon reflection I questioned it and went digging for sources to either confirm or deny the story I originally posted. In the meantime Balsamo rightly pointed out the errors, the sources I looked into confirmed this and I corrected my original post.

I don't want to get hung up on my original error so I've corrected it. My apologies, Jeff_36, for giving you a badly sourced article.

In any case, let's get back in track.
Last edited by Jeffk 1970 on Sat Aug 26, 2017 12:21 am, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 6K Posts
Posts: 6427
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: The Stalingrad Thread

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Aug 25, 2017 4:50 pm

I changed my mind on this one, there is a lot of anniversary material regarding Stalingrad coming up. I thought it would be better just to post that stuff here.

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 6K Posts
Posts: 6427
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: The Stalingrad Thread

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Aug 25, 2017 5:09 pm

The original defense of the city involved high numbers of women (which shocked the Germans when they figured out who they fought) and untrained students.

User avatar
Balsamo
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1576
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:29 pm

Re: 75 Years Ago the First Massed Bombing of Stalingrad

Postby Balsamo » Fri Aug 25, 2017 5:28 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:It actually happened on August 23rd, 1942 so I'm a couple of days late:

http://www.the-wau.com/post/world/even-the-stones-burned-75th-anniversary-of-the-massed-bombing-of-stalingrad/9776

We focused a lot on Allied Bombing during the war, it's important to remember that the Germans did their fair share.

The story above estimates between 40,000-90,000 died during this first day. These estimates top those of Dresden although I'm inclined to go with a lower amount. The Germans carried out 2,000 sorties that day and included attacks on transports carrying wounded and civilians. Even with the bombing the Germans couldn't take advantage due to spirited defense outside the city.

This always felt wasted to me, it didn't make a lot of sense (really the Battle of Stalingrad never made sense) to hammer the city into the ground. All of those ruins made excellent defense points for the Soviets and later left no shelter for the Germans trapped there. The German Army prized mobility, grinding their best units into sausage in a static battle only locked them in place with a target on their backs.

Anyway, wanted to share this. Sometimes I think we forget how much the Soviets suffered during the war.


Not wanting to playing a denier's card, here. But i am always astonished by the quality of the Luftwaffe in achieving such high killing rate with such an inappropriate equipment.
Playing the devil's advocate, if we are to believe this article, Stalingrad large of 338 square miles with a population of 400.000 from which 100.000 had been evacuated, would have suffered up to 90.000 death and 50.000 injured (that is up to half its population) within one strike by the Luftfotte 4 who had i think two bombing "divisions" mainly constituted by Tactical/medium bombers (He 111), light bombers like the Dornier Do 17, or diving bombers (Ju 88), with one wing of heavy bombers.

When a strike by 769 heavy bombers (RAF) and 527 heavy bombers from the USSAF strike on a city, dropping 3.900 tons of bombs on - let's say Dresden - three time smaller (128 square miles), with a higher density of civilian population would kill only 25.000 or 5% of its population. Each tons of bomb killing 6.4 people.

Knowing that the maximum load of a He 111 is 1.5 tons of bomb. It would have needed 2600 Henkel He 111 to drop the equivalent.
The Do 17 had a bomb load of 250 kg.
The most heavy German bomber had a capacity of 2.5 tons of bombs...But it was far from being operational by August 42.

Hence, it must have been something magical taking place on the 23rd of August, or just an obvious double standard in assessing both bombings.

That being said, my point is not to diminish the suffering of the civilians of Stalingrad. One does not need this specific bombing to know that the way the Germans conducted war on the eastern front was criminal by nature. Nevertheless, to be precise, this bombing of Stalingrad was not a strategic one, as the city was under Siege and under attack. Strategically, the bombing was a terrible mistake by the Germans, and they would pay the price for it a couple of months later.
In the same logic, the Red Army will, by January 43 iirc, shell what remained of the city to death with 4000 pieces of artillery. A tactic the Red Army will use up to Berlin in 1945.

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 6K Posts
Posts: 6427
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: 75 Years Ago the First Massed Bombing of Stalingrad

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Aug 25, 2017 6:03 pm

Balsamo wrote:Not wanting to playing a denier's card, here.


Go ahead, we don't have anymore here.

But i am always astonished by the quality of the Luftwaffe in achieving such high killing rate with such an inappropriate equipment.
Playing the devil's advocate, if we are to believe this article, Stalingrad large of 338 square miles with a population of 400.000 from which 100.000 had been evacuated, would have suffered up to 90.000 death and 50.000 injured (that is up to half its population) within one strike by the Luftfotte 4 who had i think two bombing "divisions" mainly constituted by Tactical/medium bombers (He 111), light bombers like the Dornier Do 17, or diving bombers (Ju 88), with one wing of heavy bombers.




Glancing through it, it's possible that they meant over multiple days, my sources that I glanced through say that the bombings took place from August 23rd-29th.

Also, it's likely they are using inflated Soviet figures. Going back through Beevor and checking some other sources it indicates that the number of sorties was lower, along with the casualties (much lower).

This sums it up pretty well:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/weaponsandwarfare.com/2016/12/29/the-luftwaffe-bombing-of-stalingrad/amp/


After another read through I started to question this myself, while at lunch I started picking through Beevor and looking on-line. There is another book on WW II that I have at home, The Storm of War, that goes into great detail about the Battle of Stalingrad. I'll use this and Beevor going forward.

Thanks, Balsamo, looks like I was a victim of (somewhat) fake news. It irritates me when people use a tragedy for political ends.

However, as always I will leave the original post so people can see when I look like a horse's ass.

:D

User avatar
Jeff_36
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4527
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:45 pm
Location: At the hundredth meridian, where the great plains begin

Re: The Stalingrad Thread

Postby Jeff_36 » Fri Aug 25, 2017 8:18 pm

Balsamo, recall that the Luftwaffe was the best airforce in the world in 1942. If they wanted to wipe out 90,000 people in one day, all they had to do was simply do it.

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 6K Posts
Posts: 6427
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: The Stalingrad Thread

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Aug 25, 2017 8:22 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:Balsamo, recall that the Luftwaffe was the best airforce in the world in 1942. If they wanted to wipe out 90,000 people in one day, all they had to do was simply do it.


Based upon some of the things I turned up that number is way too high.

I thought topic-wise this might peak your interest. You share my interest in military history.

User avatar
Jeff_36
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4527
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:45 pm
Location: At the hundredth meridian, where the great plains begin

Re: The Stalingrad Thread

Postby Jeff_36 » Fri Aug 25, 2017 8:28 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:Balsamo, recall that the Luftwaffe was the best airforce in the world in 1942. If they wanted to wipe out 90,000 people in one day, all they had to do was simply do it.


Based upon some of the things I turned up that number is way too high.

I thought topic-wise this might peak your interest. You share my interest in military history.


I certainly did. I just think that speculative musing about square kilometers and population numbers smacks of milk maid calculations rather than any real grasp of reality. I don't know what the number was but it was high, the city was basically leveled.

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 6K Posts
Posts: 6427
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: The Stalingrad Thread

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Aug 25, 2017 8:30 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:Balsamo, recall that the Luftwaffe was the best airforce in the world in 1942. If they wanted to wipe out 90,000 people in one day, all they had to do was simply do it.


Based upon some of the things I turned up that number is way too high.

I thought topic-wise this might peak your interest. You share my interest in military history.


I certainly did. I just think that speculative musing about square kilometers and population numbers smacks of milk maid calculations rather than any real grasp of reality. I don't know what the number was but it was high, the city was basically leveled.



Take a look at the other link I put in the OP, it shows some actual figures below the 40,000-90,000 figure.

User avatar
Balsamo
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1576
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:29 pm

Re: The Stalingrad Thread

Postby Balsamo » Fri Aug 25, 2017 10:46 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:Balsamo, recall that the Luftwaffe was the best airforce in the world in 1942. If they wanted to wipe out 90,000 people in one day, all they had to do was simply do it.


:lol:
Well, maybe in Hitler's or Goering's dreams...not in reality, i am afraid...Not only the Luftwaffe did not have the best planes in the world, but they never had the possibility to inflict a damage like 90.000 in one day---
Luckily for the world i might add as if that were true, Nazi Germany would have probably won the war.

I certainly did. I just think that speculative musing about square kilometers and population numbers smacks of milk maid calculations rather than any real grasp of reality. I don't know what the number was but it was high, the city was basically leveled.


My friend, having a real grasp of reality implies taking into account the details i mentioned and that the second article posted by Jeffk develops very well, among those details important to grasp reality is the seize of the town, the density of population, the number of aircraft available to the Nazis, the power and capacity of those, and of course decent historical sources and taking all of them into account, addressing if an assertion is founded or not. In this case, to conclude that there was no way the Luftflote 4 could have killed 40.000 and even less 90.000 within a day.

How do you grasp reality?

The article to which i reacted (the first link) was bad and naive, full of emotions and contradictions, based on no factual elements whatsoever.

As a rule, i tend to be suspicious toward assertions starting with "Historians say..."

Jeffk:
It irritates me when people use a tragedy for political ends.


I am not sure it is a deliberate lie by the author. More a consequence of a series of copy/past when it comes to commemorate historical symbols, and there are plenty of sources online that will confirm the figure.
I am pretty sure that there will be a substantial amount of articles parroting the 40.000 figures for the next following days.
It is unfortunately quite usual to find even some "historical" books just taking the Soviets statistics for granted, like this one:
https://books.google.com.pa/books?id=h5_tSnygvbIC&pg=PA1978&lpg=PA1978&dq=Bombing+of+Stalingrad+kills+40.000&source=bl&ots=X-RhvpUv5K&sig=1_3XnGBa7Q5JU4QdyaWmuWVDqvk&hl=es-419&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=Bombing%20of%20Stalingrad%20kills%2040.000&f=false
You also find it here
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-battle-of-stalingrad
Although it at least says it is over a week, which is also absurd.

This site is another example:
https://ww2db.com/battle_spec.php?battle_id=3
1000 tons of bombs destroyed 80% of the city - a city Jeff, three times as large as Dresden - but does not mention victims. But at least it speaks of 40.000 civilians death as the total for the whole battle which is of course realistic.

here another book repeating the 40.000 figure:
https://books.google.com.pa/books?id=EO_CAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA255&lpg=PA255&dq=Bombing+of+Stalingrad+kills+40.000&source=bl&ots=GrdQ5Xxsbm&sig=XDUxdZWLaarJZHaNr8J6g_0CaDU&hl=es-419&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=Bombing%20of%20Stalingrad%20kills%2040.000&f=false

I think it is more due to some form of laziness, and to chose the easy way, especially given the difficulty of any counter expertise of the numbers promoted by the Soviets. There were just no real reason or motivations to try to doubt them.
Even today, it is a sure thing for most that 1 out of 2 who died during world war 2 was a Russian, such a certainty that no one even bored to check with demographic statistics. Now, if 25.000.000 Soviet citizens did perish between mid 41 and mid 44, then you need such figure as 40.000 within the first week of airstrike at Stalingrad, or 90.000, in some cases-
Well that sounds Revisionist, doesn't it? :lol:

What is less revisionist, is that i am quite convinced that by that time Hitler and Goering would have loved to have the capacity of killing 90.000 in one day.
But a reality check will confirm that this was only a dream, and the waste of resources, pilots and planes wasted at Stalingrad will be of great consequences later, as i said.

Balmoral95
Regular Poster
Posts: 944
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 4:14 am
Location: The Free Nambia Healthcare Nirvana

Re: The Stalingrad Thread

Postby Balmoral95 » Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:28 pm

>Balsamo, recall that the Luftwaffe was the best airforce in the world in 1942."

With Goring and Udet at the helm? Seriously? The Luftwaffe should have changed its motto to "Flyin' High".

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 6K Posts
Posts: 6427
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: The Stalingrad Thread

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Aug 26, 2017 12:23 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:I wanted to start a thread on the Battle of Stalingrad and begin with the initial mass bombing of Stalingrad that occurred on August 23rd, 1942.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/weaponsand ... ngrad/amp/

We focused a lot on Allied Bombing during the war, it's important to remember that the Germans did their fair share.

Even with the bombing the Germans couldn't take advantage due to spirited defense outside the city.

This always felt wasted to me, it didn't make a lot of sense (really the Battle of Stalingrad never made sense) to hammer the city into the ground. All of those ruins made excellent defense points for the Soviets and later left no shelter for the Germans trapped there. The German Army prized mobility, grinding their best units into sausage in a static battle only locked them in place with a target on their backs.

Anyway, wanted to share this. Sometimes I think we forget how much the Soviets suffered during the war.

We can use this thread to document the course of battle.

Ordinarily I don't mind leaving posts that make me look like a horse's ass because, well, I do that a lot.

But this seems to be wandering away from my original intention. The importance of Stalingrad cannot be overstated, it's where Hitler's dreams of an Eastern empire went to die.

The fault of the original post is mine, I found the story interesting and wanted to post it. Therefore the error over numbers is mine and mine alone. Upon reflection I questioned it and went digging for sources to either confirm or deny the story I originally posted. In the meantime Balsamo rightly pointed out the errors, the sources I looked into confirmed this and I corrected my original post.

I don't want to get hung up on my original error so I've corrected it. My apologies, Jeff_36, for giving you a badly sourced article.

In any case, let's get back in track.


This is my reset post. You can see the original quoted by Balsamo.

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 6K Posts
Posts: 6427
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: The Stalingrad Thread

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Aug 26, 2017 12:33 am

Anthony Beevor's Stalingrad is available at my library, I've put a hold on it.

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 6K Posts
Posts: 6427
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: The Stalingrad Thread

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Aug 26, 2017 12:36 am

I have Beevor's book on WW II at my office, that's what I looked through earlier. I'm hoping to get his book on Stalingrad in the next few weeks.

Balmoral95
Regular Poster
Posts: 944
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 4:14 am
Location: The Free Nambia Healthcare Nirvana

Re: The Stalingrad Thread

Postby Balmoral95 » Sat Aug 26, 2017 12:39 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:I have Beevor's book on WW II at my office, that's what I looked through earlier. I'm hoping to get his book on Stalingrad in the next few weeks.



So where you want this to start?

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 6K Posts
Posts: 6427
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: The Stalingrad Thread

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Aug 26, 2017 12:51 am

Balmoral95 wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:I have Beevor's book on WW II at my office, that's what I looked through earlier. I'm hoping to get his book on Stalingrad in the next few weeks.



So where you want this to start?



I think it would be a good idea to backtrack to the start of the Summer of 1942. I can't tonight but I'm going to pull some books out this weekend to add to this. If you want, go ahead and add anything you like.

User avatar
Jeff_36
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4527
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:45 pm
Location: At the hundredth meridian, where the great plains begin

Re: The Stalingrad Thread

Postby Jeff_36 » Sat Aug 26, 2017 1:51 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:Anthony Beevor's Stalingrad is available at my library, I've put a hold on it.


I have issues with Beevor - his Book on the Spanish Civil War was good (not as good as Hugh Thomas's account, which was amazing) but his account of D-Day was a bit trite IMO.

Balmoral95
Regular Poster
Posts: 944
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 4:14 am
Location: The Free Nambia Healthcare Nirvana

Re: The Stalingrad Thread

Postby Balmoral95 » Sat Aug 26, 2017 2:38 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:I have Beevor's book on WW II at my office, that's what I looked through earlier. I'm hoping to get his book on Stalingrad in the next few weeks.



So where you want this to start?



I think it would be a good idea to backtrack to the start of the Summer of 1942. I can't tonight but I'm going to pull some books out this weekend to add to this. If you want, go ahead and add anything you like.


Okay. Hitler comes up with operation Blue, swings south. As usual, gets over-ambitious and splits the force resulting in a catastrophic failure of the offensive by the end of 1942. Grofaz.

Balmoral95
Regular Poster
Posts: 944
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 4:14 am
Location: The Free Nambia Healthcare Nirvana

Re: The Stalingrad Thread

Postby Balmoral95 » Sat Aug 26, 2017 2:43 am

Brandy and cigars have a way of honing things down to essence on a Friday night.

Tomorrow, I'll be back to my usual miserable self.

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 6K Posts
Posts: 6427
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: The Stalingrad Thread

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Aug 26, 2017 3:05 am

LOL

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 6K Posts
Posts: 6427
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: The Stalingrad Thread

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:31 pm

Bumping this, I've got Beevor's book on Stalingrad.

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 6K Posts
Posts: 6427
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: The Stalingrad Thread

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:34 pm

Beevor states that the 6th Army included 50,000 Soviet soldiers.

User avatar
Balsamo
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1576
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:29 pm

Re: The Stalingrad Thread

Postby Balsamo » Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:03 pm

Hiwi's, yes...
Still it does not really make a subject... ;)

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 6K Posts
Posts: 6427
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: The Stalingrad Thread

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:56 pm

Balsamo wrote:Hiwi's, yes...
Still it does not really make a subject... ;)



My thread, my rules.... :D

User avatar
Balsamo
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1576
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:29 pm

Re: The Stalingrad Thread

Postby Balsamo » Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:00 pm

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Balmoral95
Regular Poster
Posts: 944
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 4:14 am
Location: The Free Nambia Healthcare Nirvana

Re: The Stalingrad Thread

Postby Balmoral95 » Thu Sep 28, 2017 5:09 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:Beevor states that the 6th Army included 50,000 Soviet soldiers.


And they?

User avatar
Balsamo
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1576
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:29 pm

Re: The Stalingrad Thread

Postby Balsamo » Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:43 am

Balmoral95 wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:Beevor states that the 6th Army included 50,000 Soviet soldiers.


And they?


...and They did not live happily ever after... :(

User avatar
Denying-History
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1727
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:01 pm

Re: The Stalingrad Thread

Postby Denying-History » Thu Sep 28, 2017 12:11 pm

Huh, been a while since I read anything about Stalingrad outside of Furr who considers it a good argument to evoke "comparison with Allied commanders in both world wars". You know because its a moral comparison for Stalin's actions at Stalingrad to be compared with the Battle of the Somme. As if House to House fighting was the same as being shelled constantly in a 3 foot hole in the ground.

David M. Glantz the author of Stumbling Colossus wrote a 3 part series about Stalingrad, that I am planning to buy. The interesting pieces is he outlines how "Soviet troops are sacrificial lambs." "Divisions that come in with 10,000 men have 500 the next day". This tactic cost him 14 million lives and was exemplified at Stalingrad. Khrushchev was right when describing his experiences that "war ends when it has rolled through cities and villages, everywhere sowing death and destruction."

I honestly didn't see his (Glantz) book Armageddon being recommended, so I thought I would make the recommendation:

https://www.amazon.com/Armageddon-Stalingrad-September-November-Trilogy-Studies/dp/0700616640
« Lies written in ink cannot disguise facts written in blood. »
- Lu Xun

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 17390
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: The Stalingrad Thread

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Sep 28, 2017 12:26 pm

thanks, that needs to be on my reading list (it may actually be on my bookshelves . . . come to think of it . . . )
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 6K Posts
Posts: 6427
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: The Stalingrad Thread

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Sep 28, 2017 4:42 pm

Denying-History wrote:Huh, been a while since I read anything about Stalingrad outside of Furr who considers it a good argument to evoke "comparison with Allied commanders in both world wars". You know because its a moral comparison for Stalin's actions at Stalingrad to be compared with the Battle of the Somme. As if House to House fighting was the same as being shelled constantly in a 3 foot hole in the ground.

David M. Glantz the author of Stumbling Colossus wrote a 3 part series about Stalingrad, that I am planning to buy. The interesting pieces is he outlines how "Soviet troops are sacrificial lambs." "Divisions that come in with 10,000 men have 500 the next day". This tactic cost him 14 million lives and was exemplified at Stalingrad. Khrushchev was right when describing his experiences that "war ends when it has rolled through cities and villages, everywhere sowing death and destruction."

I honestly didn't see his (Glantz) book Armageddon being recommended, so I thought I would make the recommendation:

https://www.amazon.com/Armageddon-Stalingrad-September-November-Trilogy-Studies/dp/0700616640


Thanks, I'll look into it. On lunch today I ran by the bookstore and found Iron Kingdom, a book about the history of Prussia that I've wanted to pick up for a bit.


Stalin was hardly caring or sparing of his soldier's lives, it got worse in 1944 when he ordered the Red Army to commence with frontal assaults to break the German armies instead of the wide, sweeping attacks to surround trapped German formations. The Red Army became experts at the sweeping attacks, helped by US jeeps and trucks but Stalin believed it left the Red Army vulnerable to German counterattacks.

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 6K Posts
Posts: 6427
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: The Stalingrad Thread

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Sep 28, 2017 4:44 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:thanks, that needs to be on my reading list (it may actually be on my bookshelves . . . come to think of it . . . )



Sounds like you need to inventory your library!
:lol:

I occasionally run a sweep to make sure I don't duplicate purchases.

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 17390
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: The Stalingrad Thread

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Sep 28, 2017 5:16 pm

I have purchased so many duplicates that I could have bought a small island with the money it cost me to return them to Amazon . . . :) . . . in this case I'm safe, I have two different books with a similar title but not Glantz . . .
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

User avatar
Jeff_36
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4527
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:45 pm
Location: At the hundredth meridian, where the great plains begin

Re: The Stalingrad Thread

Postby Jeff_36 » Fri Sep 29, 2017 2:38 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:Beevor states that the 6th Army included 50,000 Soviet soldiers.


Vlasovites, scum mostly. I get that Stalin was awful but considering the nature of the German plans for Russia (documented in my Ostpolitik thread) their actions cannot be termed as anything but reprehensible. To Hell with them :lol:

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 17390
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: The Stalingrad Thread

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:00 am

I thought Vlasov's actual recruiting didn't begin until sometime in 1943? Maybe my memory is shite . . . I will look it up later . . .
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

User avatar
Jeff_36
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4527
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:45 pm
Location: At the hundredth meridian, where the great plains begin

Re: The Stalingrad Thread

Postby Jeff_36 » Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:12 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:I thought Vlasov's actual recruiting didn't begin until sometime in 1943? Maybe my memory is shite . . . I will look it up later . . .


He was captured at the beginning of 1942 near Leningrad and turned not long afterwords. That's all I know. I think that you might be right about this.

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 6K Posts
Posts: 6427
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: The Stalingrad Thread

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:46 am

Jeff_36 wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:Beevor states that the 6th Army included 50,000 Soviet soldiers.


Vlasovites, scum mostly. I get that Stalin was awful but considering the nature of the German plans for Russia (documented in my Ostpolitik thread) their actions cannot be termed as anything but reprehensible. To Hell with them :lol:



Well, considering the alternative was starving to death in a German POW camp or being keelhauled for forced labor in Germany, I can't really blame them for taking a uniform and rations. They got to live a little longer.

Balmoral95
Regular Poster
Posts: 944
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 4:14 am
Location: The Free Nambia Healthcare Nirvana

Re: The Stalingrad Thread

Postby Balmoral95 » Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:57 am

Jeff_36 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:I thought Vlasov's actual recruiting didn't begin until sometime in 1943? Maybe my memory is shite . . . I will look it up later . . .


He was captured at the beginning of 1942 near Leningrad and turned not long afterwords. That's all I know. I think that you might be right about this.


He floundered around the Nazis in captivity through '43 and '44... did a bit of propaganda stuff against the Reds. Dolfy and Onkel Heini were pretty undecided about his worth. Me thinks his ROA cobbled together force wasn't shoved into the line until late '44 or early '45, iirc.

Matthew Ellard
Real Skeptic
Posts: 26765
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am

Re: The Stalingrad Thread

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:44 am

I was in Croatia five years ago and bought this book at a market in Zagreb. I can't read Croatian but it has over 400 pages of photos of Croatian soldiers and tanks fighting in the East, including Stalingrad. That's why I bought it and because it appears to be Australian in origin despite having no English text.

Croatian Legion : The 369th Reinforced (Croatian) Infantry regiment on the Eastern Front 1941 to 1943. (2012)
Amir Obhodas and Jason Mark
Leaping Horsemen Books Sydney Australia 2010.


Someone spend a lot of money publishing this book.
Croatia in Stalingrad.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 17390
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: The Stalingrad Thread

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:51 am

Balmoral95 wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:I thought Vlasov's actual recruiting didn't begin until sometime in 1943? Maybe my memory is shite . . . I will look it up later . . .


He was captured at the beginning of 1942 near Leningrad and turned not long afterwords. That's all I know. I think that you might be right about this.


He floundered around the Nazis in captivity through '43 and '44... did a bit of propaganda stuff against the Reds. Dolfy and Onkel Heini were pretty undecided about his worth. Me thinks his ROA cobbled together force wasn't shoved into the line until late '44 or early '45, iirc.

thanks, that sounds more like it, the Russians at Stalingrad would then have been pre-Vlasov Hiwis?
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 6K Posts
Posts: 6427
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: The Stalingrad Thread

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:31 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:I thought Vlasov's actual recruiting didn't begin until sometime in 1943? Maybe my memory is shite . . . I will look it up later . . .


He was captured at the beginning of 1942 near Leningrad and turned not long afterwords. That's all I know. I think that you might be right about this.


He floundered around the Nazis in captivity through '43 and '44... did a bit of propaganda stuff against the Reds. Dolfy and Onkel Heini were pretty undecided about his worth. Me thinks his ROA cobbled together force wasn't shoved into the line until late '44 or early '45, iirc.

thanks, that sounds more like it, the Russians at Stalingrad would then have been pre-Vlasov Hiwis?




Vlasov wasn't captured until July 12th, 1942. He did some propaganda work but it wasn't until September of 1944 that he was permitted to form the ROA. He only fought the Red Army in one battle in 1945 and didn't turn on the Germans until May 6th, 1945.


Return to “Holocaust Denial”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Im_Not_Creative_Enough, iwh and 2 guests