On the "cherry-red corpses" question

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Aaron Richards
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On the "cherry-red corpses" question

Postby Aaron Richards » Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:13 am

Have deniers so far been able to present evidence (medical literature etc.) that the corpses of malnourished people (such as Jews from eastern european ghettos and schtetls, chief demographic of the AR dead) who have died from hydrogen cyanide or carbon monoxide poisoning turn bright cherry-red at the same rate as corpses of overweight people do?

Have deniers so far been able to present evidence (medical literature etc.) that the corpses of people who have died from hydrogen cyanide or carbon monoxide poisoning turn bright cherry-red in a SHORT amount of time, rather than, say, SEVERAL HOURS later, (as which point it would be too late to notice anything as they were already being incinerated)?

Have deniers so far been able to admit they were lying when they said no survivor testimony ever spoke of red corpses when we clearly have SONDERKOMMANDO Henryk Tauber himself who mentions this phenomenon?

We found heaps of naked bodies, doubled up. They were pinkish, and in places red. Some were covered with greenish marks and saliva ran from their mouths. Others were bleeding from the nose. There was excrement on many of them. I remember that a great number had their eyes open and were hanging on to one another. The bodies were most crushed together round the door. By contrast, there were less around the wire mesh columns. The location of the bodies indicated that the people had tried to get away front the columns and get to the door. It was very hot in the gas chamber, and so suffocating, as to be unbearable. Later on, we became convinced many people died of suffocation, due to lack of air, just before the gassing.


source: Robert Jan Van Pelt, "The Case For Auschwitz: Evidence from the Irving Trial", page 197

Which reminds me, have deniers so far been able to present evidence (medical literature etc.) that in the event of a homicidal gassing involving a poisonous agent, only an insignificant number of the total dead would have died from suffocation due to being packed so densely and therefore their corpses would not in any way reduce the number of cherry red ones?

If the answer is "no", revisionists, especially FP Berg, have once again failed to convince anyone.
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Re: On the "cherry-red corpses" question

Postby Denying-History » Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:30 am

If I remember correctly there is another testimony for gas vans that mentions this.
« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
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Re: On the "cherry-red corpses" question

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Aug 02, 2017 4:04 am

Denying-History wrote:If I remember correctly there is another testimony for gas vans that mentions this.


The gas vans tested at Mauthausen on Soviet POWs, the corpses were described as "pink."

See KL, History of the German Concentration Camps by Wachsman.

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Re: On the "cherry-red corpses" question

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:04 pm

Here is a rather amusing blunder by ol' Fritz Berg. He posted this article at RODOH:

http://nazigassings.com/RisserBoenschSchneider.html

Berg posted this article in the belief that it strengthened his point, i.e., deaths from Carbon Monoxide poisoning should be obvious due to the pink coloration of the corpses.

In fact it hurt his position. The authors noted that only 61% Viennese coroners recognized the cause of death at the scene. These are trained coroners. The article also states that the number of unrecognized cases doubled from 1984-1990 (and then declined). Table I shows this and goes to 1993.

The article recommends a thorough examination of the corpse in order to accurately determine the cause of death to prevent further accidents.

Now, if what is needed is a thorough examination of the corpse to see and recognize the signs of Carbon Monoxide poisoning, why would traumatized men forced to move as fast as they could recognize the signs of Carbon Monoxide poisoning? They would notice immediate details but not fine details. Also, the article specifically states that those with a compromised ability to oxygenate would show less signs of Carbon Monoxide poisoning and levels of 31% (Carboxyhemoglobin) and below would show little or no coloring. We talked about this before, Jews left in railway cars or coming from the Warsaw Ghetto would be sick, dehydrated and malnourished, i.e., their ability to oxygenate would be compromised.

So, I think ol' Fritzy shot himself in the foot on this one. Why would we expect sick, traumatized men to notice details that trained coroners miss?

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Re: On the "cherry-red corpses" question

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:11 pm

You can see that conversation here:
https://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2823&start=680

Berg left quickly.

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Re: On the "cherry-red corpses" question

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:42 pm

this appalling thread went through this question in relation mostly to Treblinka: viewtopic.php?f=39&t=18857
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: On the "cherry-red corpses" question

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:48 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:this appalling thread went through this question in relation mostly to Treblinka: viewtopic.php?f=39&t=18857


Aryan :lol: :lol: :lol: Scholar and Nessie wore out this whole thing on RODOH, there were pages of it. I stopped following after a while because it bored the crap out of me.

I think it's well established that it takes some time for the coloring to show up (if it does at all).

I did enjoy Fritzy's gaffe.

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Re: On the "cherry-red corpses" question

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:50 pm

I also enjoyed David calling Berg a scholar.

:rotfl:

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Re: On the "cherry-red corpses" question

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:57 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:If I remember correctly there is another testimony for gas vans that mentions this.


The gas vans tested at Mauthausen on Soviet POWs, the corpses were described as "pink."

See KL, History of the German Concentration Camps by Wachsman.



Correction, Sachsenhausen.

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Re: On the "cherry-red corpses" question

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:59 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:this appalling thread went through this question in relation mostly to Treblinka: viewtopic.php?f=39&t=18857


Aryan :lol: :lol: :lol: Scholar and Nessie wore out this whole thing on RODOH, there were pages of it. I stopped following after a while because it bored the crap out of me.

I think it's well established that it takes some time for the coloring to show up (if it does at all).

I did enjoy Fritzy's gaffe.

I found out one of my favorite historical details messing around with it, though, which is that Wiernik picked up a number of sayings from Crazy Rubinstein of the Warsaw ghetto in his musings on death at Treblinka.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: On the "cherry-red corpses" question

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Aug 02, 2017 4:40 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:this appalling thread went through this question in relation mostly to Treblinka: viewtopic.php?f=39&t=18857


Aryan :lol: :lol: :lol: Scholar and Nessie wore out this whole thing on RODOH, there were pages of it. I stopped following after a while because it bored the crap out of me.

I think it's well established that it takes some time for the coloring to show up (if it does at all).

I did enjoy Fritzy's gaffe.

I found out one of my favorite historical details messing around with it, though, which is that Wiernik picked up a number of sayings from Crazy Rubinstein of the Warsaw ghetto in his musings on death at Treblinka.


I read through some of it. David busy making himself look like an ass..

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Re: On the "cherry-red corpses" question

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Wed Aug 02, 2017 4:49 pm

There is another testimony, a Soviet one, about corpses from a gas van being red like from a bath.

Anyway various references point out that in case of a lack of oxygen and/or injuries cyanides cause cyanosis. I have always assumed that what is meant is that they cause cyanosis * rather * than the cherry pink color. However cyanosis is visible on extremities rather than the whole body so some deniers suggest that it causes cyanosis in addition to the red. Any refs that explicitly exclude the simultaneity?

---

Given how many ppl were pushed into the chambers at once at times we would actually expect many of them to have died of asphyxiation even before the chambers were fully loaded (esp. when several chambers were being loaded like at AR camps and people in the first full chambers had to wait until the other chambers are full), and I'd dare guess that most of them were * close * to asphyxiation.

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Re: On the "cherry-red corpses" question

Postby Denying-History » Wed Aug 02, 2017 11:01 pm

Dr. Theodor Friedrich Leidig.

“I was told that the people who had climbed into the truck were Russians who would otherwise have had to be shot. They were looking for a different way of killing them. We then went to another place, where we met the truck again. It was near the crematory oven. I can still remember that one could see through a peephole or a small window into the inside of the truck, which was lit up. One could see that the people were dead. The van was opened. Some bodies fell out; the others were unloaded by prisoners. Those of us who were chemists could ascertain that the bodies had that pinkish look which is typical of victims of carbon monoxide poisoning”.


(Nazi Mass Murder: A Documentary History of the Use of Poison Gas p. 54.)

“The location of these lethal tests was Sachsenhausen, and the victims were Soviet POWs, who were gassed instead of being shot. Camp SS men would force the naked prisoners into the van, customized to pump carbon monoxide from the engine into the hold. Then the van drove off. When it came to a stop outside the Sachsenhausen crematorium, all prisoners inside were dead, their bodies turned pink by the fumes.”


Excerpt From: Wachsmann, Nikolaus. “KL.” Farrar, Straus and Giroux. iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.
« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
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Re: On the "cherry-red corpses" question

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Aug 03, 2017 12:02 am

Dr. Hees then tested a van a Sachsenhausen on forty Soviet POWs in either late October or November of 1941. The victims turned pink, showing they died from carbon monoxide poisoning and not suffocation. Firma Graubschsut was then contracted to do thirty conversions.


Browning's footnotes cite the above events back to Pradel and Wintritt's Trial.

I forgot this, it was in Browning's Origins of the Final Solution.

http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=28024&start=80

For some reason I thought the vans were tested at Mauthausen, my mistake.

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Re: On the "cherry-red corpses" question

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:21 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote: I read through some of it. David busy making himself look like an ass..
I'm suspicious that David from California is no longer with us. He was very old. He did appear to have minor strokes and lost specific comprehension skills, every now and then.

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Re: On the "cherry-red corpses" question

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:54 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote: I read through some of it. David busy making himself look like an ass..
I'm suspicious that David from California is no longer with us. He was very old. He did appear to have minor strokes and lost specific comprehension skills, every now and then.

Did we decide that his name, as Sergey Romanov explained IIRC, is/was Andrew Allen AKA David Merlin - and sometimes David Allen? David Merlin was still writing crank letters, posted to CODOH, as of June 2017.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: On the "cherry-red corpses" question

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Aug 03, 2017 2:00 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote: I read through some of it. David busy making himself look like an ass..
I'm suspicious that David from California is no longer with us. He was very old. He did appear to have minor strokes and lost specific comprehension skills, every now and then.

Did we decide that his name, as Sergey Romanov explained IIRC, is/was Andrew Allen AKA David Merlin - and sometimes David Allen? David Merlin was still writing crank letters, posted to CODOH, as of June 2017.


Yes to the former and no, I did not know he was still typing on CODOH. My only problem was that Andrew Allen was in theory a lawyer for Mark Weber, and David had no legal skills.

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... -away.html

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Re: On the "cherry-red corpses" question

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Aug 03, 2017 2:09 am

here both Andrew Allen and David Merlin sign pieces for Smith's Report using the CODOH phone #
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: On the "cherry-red corpses" question

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:07 am

> Graubschsut

Gaubschat.

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Re: On the "cherry-red corpses" question

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:41 pm

Relevant:

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... html#_doc9

"the persons to be executed suffer death from suffocation and not death by dozing off as was planned"

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Re: On the "cherry-red corpses" question

Postby BRoI » Fri Aug 04, 2017 2:22 pm

Also relevant, but inconvenient to the individuals who claim Blaha's testimony proves that at least trial Zyklon B gassing were conducted at Dachau:

Q. Do you think that the gas used could have been cyanide?

A. No, because if the has had been cyanide all seven would have been dead and that [they?] should have exhibited the brilliant scarlet pink color of the skin observed after cyanide poisoning.

- Franz Blaha's first affidavit, completed 18 May 1945.
"... these witnesses would swear to anything if it gets the Germans killed."
- Solomon Surowitz, Assistant Prosecutor at the 1947 Buchenwald trial.


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