Lester Markel did nothing wrong

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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby BRoI » Sun Jul 30, 2017 12:34 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:But there's a distinct difference between what seems to be a sharp as can be copy of the original photograph


Your so-called "original photograph" is a version even Romanov admits has been modified. When *persons unknown* [but you can't implicate the NYT or MM this time] decided to remove the serial number, they extended the length of the post and covered over a knothole.

Image
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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby Gord » Sun Jul 30, 2017 1:54 pm

BRoI wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:Dude, I don't care how many pictures were taken and if modesty caused some editing.

There is no evidence that modesty caused anything at the NYT.

There is some evidence -- the picture with Toncman in it. Even with his junk covered, he still looks naked. Editing him out seems reasonable.
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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby scrmbldggs » Sun Jul 30, 2017 3:10 pm

Chimney? A two-tone chimney that slender and that close to the bunks would look different in the background, imo. And I think you might be mistaking the wall boards for a continuation of the ceiling, even tho they clearly run at a different angle to it.

Image
Image


BTW, I also wrote "a copy of the original photograph". ;)
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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby BRoI » Sun Jul 30, 2017 8:37 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
Well I'm not in the business of lying outrageously and then blaming it on a book. That is an utterly infantile display of cowardice.

:roll:
Statistical Mechanic » Wed Oct 19, 2016 5:28 pm wrote:
My first reaction to the Miedzyrzec photo was that you knew where it was from. I don't believe that now. I still think that the video, overall, is misleading, but I don't think you lied about that photo.
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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Sun Jul 30, 2017 9:11 pm

BRoI wrote:
Kleon_I XYZ Contagion wrote:You waste people's time over nothing, is my opinion.

I know, what am I like! There are so many important threads in this subforum, all of them chocka with posts revealing recently discovered archival material for the first time. :roll:


Rabbit, I just can't follow you and can't find any logic in what you're doing.
I tried hard to understand what this thread was about, what is its importance and its reason to exist.

You missed to explain to all of us the most basic key elements of your story.

Let's assume that someone did doctored the picture. On what purpose? What did he try to achieve by altering the photo?
What is the difference if the standing man was removed or if he was placed?
I didn't find any answer of yours in this.

I saw somewhere you said with huge letters: 'The Most Famous Holocaust Photo a Fraud'.

A fraud over what?

I only see some newspapers people once edited a picture. OK, then?

Let's assume further that Sergey or HC crew did accused the NYT member of doctoring. On what motive?
If they did it -which I doubt after reading their post- what did they expect to earn from this?
I didn't find any answer of yours in this neither.

I read some stuff about a missing knothole, or for some other slight details, and it seems to me you've started this whole campaign, which must be very important for you since you dedicate lots of your time, making video, searching archives and books, finding a lot of stuff, posting over and over in a thousand webpages, making hashtags, getting angry, calling people names etc, and the whole thing seems done for nothing, for a whatever reason sticked to your head.

What was the major impact of this doctoring, in an extent we have to throw away so many hours of our lives?

You said Sergey's English isn't good enough to articulate etc, but I found out whenever Sergey says something, even with his 'not good English' (which I perfectly understand though English isn't my first language either) is always something with a value, and whenever you BRoI say something with your perfect original English is a total waste of time.

Are these serious adult things, or are these jokes?

The "Justice for Lester Markel" campaign maybe just days old but pundits are predicting heads will roll at HC, who've been labelled the *new West Midlands Serious Crime Squad*
Even musicians have come out in support of Lester Markel.
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Please, explain first your answers (if there are any) in my two above questions about the possible motives of doctoring the photo and HC's motives on accusing Lester Markel, in order to understand who would profit and by what means exactly, and then maybe I'll take you seriously.
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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby Balsamo » Sun Jul 30, 2017 10:07 pm

So, Rabbit, what is your theory about all this?

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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby scrmbldggs » Sun Jul 30, 2017 10:09 pm

I think that "knothole" business is funny. Looks like someone "replaced" that area twice with a slice of image of the post just above the dark spot and the number - maybe to remove the number to make certain the apparently enhanced image would not ever be mistaken for the original, if that one holds that number?
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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby BRoI » Sun Jul 30, 2017 10:24 pm

Sorry, chaps, it's a school night and I've got a busy week. Will get back for more arguments asap. ;)
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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby scrmbldggs » Sun Jul 30, 2017 10:26 pm

g'nite
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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby scrmbldggs » Sun Jul 30, 2017 11:07 pm

Ah, Sergey answered my above question already - "I informed the readers that the number was deleted, which automatically implies retouching." Thanks. ( I need to get out more... :roll:)
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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby Jeff_36 » Mon Jul 31, 2017 2:41 am

BRoI wrote:Sorry, chaps, it's a school night and I've got a busy week. Will get back for more arguments asap. ;)

We gather that you take the short bus.......

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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby Jeff_36 » Mon Jul 31, 2017 2:48 am

BRoI wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:
Well I'm not in the business of lying outrageously and then blaming it on a book. That is an utterly infantile display of cowardice.

:roll:
Statistical Mechanic » Wed Oct 19, 2016 5:28 pm wrote:
My first reaction to the Miedzyrzec photo was that you knew where it was from. I don't believe that now. I still think that the video, overall, is misleading, but I don't think you lied about that photo.


LOL, I'm not sure if you're stupider than I thought or just dizzy from your latest spanking. As I clearly articulated above, I am of theopinion that you lied. Your digging up quotes from other users makes me wonder if you know how to read properly.

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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:04 am

> Let's assume further that Sergey or HC crew did accused the NYT member of doctoring. On what motive?

All I did was show that the Bunny's laughable conspiracy theory doesn't hold water since the most plausible explanation is that someone at the NYTM retouched the photo. It would hold even if there were no further evidence, but there is, as I showed in my article, conclusively establishing that the NYTM version is the retouched one.

Words like "doctoring" or accusations against particular persons wholly stem from the Bun Bun's overactive imagination.

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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:22 pm

Sergey_Romanov wrote:> Let's assume further that Sergey or HC crew did accused the NYT member of doctoring. On what motive?

All I did was show that the Bunny's laughable conspiracy theory doesn't hold water since the most plausible explanation is that someone at the NYTM retouched the photo. It would hold even if there were no further evidence, but there is, as I showed in my article, conclusively establishing that the NYTM version is the retouched one.

Words like "doctoring" or accusations against particular persons wholly stem from the Bun Bun's overactive imagination.


I know, Sergey. This phrase of yours gave me everything I needed to know about this Rabbit's enterprise:

Not only does the "exposé" fail to make sense - the charlatan didn't even prove his point.

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... 1254274618

I said the same thing as you did, someone in NYT edited a picture, and all further context exists in this little phrase of yours -just wanted to test his logic's limitations.
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http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocide/t ... ocide.html

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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:07 pm

> This phrase of yours

It was by StatMech, although it's an honor to be mistaken for him ;)

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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby blake121666 » Tue Aug 01, 2017 2:09 am

BRoI wrote:
Gord wrote:
BRoI wrote:doctoring Auschwitz survivor Simon Toncman out of the famous Buchenwald photograph

"Doctoring"? A naked man was edited out of a photograph [...]

Yes, "doctoring"; it would have necessitated far more than a little editing. Please click the image to enlarge it and you shall become better informed:

Image



Well, I am inclined from this to speculate that the photo was Combination Printed

I admit that I have not looked into this issue anywhere near as much as BRoI or Sergey. But from this post alone I am speculating a composite print using 2 negatives. Which is what BRoI is suggesting.

I suspect it would be much much easier to ADD something to a picture in this way than to subtract from a picture and add in the elements being blocked by the thing removed. One of the things that suggests combination printing to me are the shadows of Toncman - they look like genuine shadows from a picture of him to me - not added on - and not easily removed from the other pic (the post shadow is on that one though).

There very well could be multiple negatives floating around that are slightly different - from reading this thread. Negatives have probably been manipulated (compositely combined) into OTHER negatives to achieve the desired pictures. And therefore there might be multiple combination negatives.

The missing knothole is a bit strange since that picture with the numbers written on it is most likely a later version of the picture that has been written on. And yet it is the one with the knothole.

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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Tue Aug 01, 2017 6:32 am

> I suspect it would be much much easier to ADD something to a picture in this way than to subtract from a picture

I'm pretty sure it is extremely easy to add those few missing details for an extremely low-res photo print, where the crudeness of such quick additions would be undetectable (well, except for f-n up and forgetting to draw in a bunk post) than it is to add such a figure to the photo in a completely non-detectable (even in hi-res) way, with the finely textured shadow and upper body motion blur.

> The missing knothole is a bit strange since that picture with the numbers written on it is most likely a later version of the picture that has been written on. And yet it is the one with the knothole.

There is nothing strange, a fragment of wood texture was copied two times over the number (thus also covering the knothole). You can see the repeating pattern. Which shows the extent of the mad skillz of the Signal Corps guy who retouched this version.

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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby Denying-History » Tue Aug 01, 2017 9:30 am

What does it matter? The man that is dead stays and a photograph stays a photograph... Regardless of which photograph is authentic its little more then ether add or remove a single person...
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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Tue Aug 01, 2017 11:07 am

Obsessives will go to great lengths over nothing.

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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Tue Aug 01, 2017 11:14 am

Further implausibility of the Bunny CT: the Signal Corps doctors the photo by adding the man; then someone puts a number on it. Then, instead of using the original doctored photo they had already had, they instead took the photo with the number, deleted the number in a very crude way and stamped the photo with their symbol. The Bunny's CTs are the most Rube Goldbergesque I've seen. His Mogilev footage CT was just as ridiculous.

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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Tue Aug 01, 2017 11:19 am

BTW, still no explanation of the upper body motion blur on the absurd CT. It cannot be explained as some {!#%@} up during the combination printing exactly because the photo figure would be rigid and the blur would have appeared along the full length of the figure. It can only be explained by the man having moved his upper body, hence the length of the "aura" is greater at the top and gradually vanishes towards the bottom.

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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby Denying-History » Tue Aug 01, 2017 1:37 pm

I'm more then aware of how compulsive the Rabbit is with his 'facts'. This doesn't give reason to feed it in my mind, but moving on I guess. If I remember correctly a Spanish website debunked the photograph claim about how the man in the photograph was fake.
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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Tue Aug 01, 2017 4:37 pm

I used their photo with motion blur in my post.

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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby blake121666 » Tue Aug 01, 2017 9:26 pm

Well the motion blur could be alignment blur: the 2 negatives did not align precisely enough - resulting in a very small gap between the 2 when making the combined print. Notice the ghosting.

I'd have to agree with Sergey though that the picture w/o Toncman is pretty low-res. Given that the Toncman photo is the highest resolution we have at hand, we could take Sergey's position on the matter.

It's a coin toss to me, really.

That we can see the person in the bunk behind Toncman's right armpit (left side looking at him - between his arm and chest) furthers Sergey's case better. I am referring to the hi-res photo:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dc/Buchenwald_Slave_Laborers_Liberation.jpg

We need a hi-res of the Toncman-less picture. There's not enough information to nail this down.

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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Tue Aug 01, 2017 9:42 pm

> Well the motion blur could be alignment blur: the 2 negatives did not align precisely enough - resulting in a very small gap between the 2 when making the combined print.

That has been pre-addressed:

"It cannot be explained as some {!#%@} up during the combination printing exactly because the photo figure would be rigid and the blur would have appeared along the full length of the figure."

The images are not flexible, unlike human bodies. The legs did not move -> no blur there. There would have been if a "cut-out" image would have been misaligned.

Moreover on the assumption of forgery much work had been put into the smallest details, but they didn't notice something that obvious?

Nope, doesn't make sense, no way, no how.

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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Tue Aug 01, 2017 9:44 pm

Nice point about the guy behind the standing man. I may add it to the post and will give you credit.

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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby blake121666 » Tue Aug 01, 2017 9:46 pm

Sergey_Romanov wrote:Nice point about the guy behind the standing man. I may add it to the post and will give you credit.


Actually, the fact that the Toncman-less print has no people in that part of the bunks is one in your favor as well regardless of if that is indeed a person or not.

I'm leaning in favor of the Sergey narrative at this point.

EDIT: BTW, a gap blur would not be along the full length - just in the area of the misalignment bubble. Could be anywhere actually - even quite discontinuous.

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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Tue Aug 01, 2017 11:24 pm

OK can you explain how you get misalignment at the top but not at the bottom?

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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby scrmbldggs » Tue Aug 01, 2017 11:26 pm

Reverse hula?
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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby blake121666 » Wed Aug 02, 2017 12:21 am

Sergey_Romanov wrote:OK can you explain how you get misalignment at the top but not at the bottom?


Yes. Films can have mis-alignments between them in any geometry imaginable. Imagine a flimsy wet thing contacting another flimsy wet thing: they could stick and separate in any geometry. If the film had a spotty net eloctrostatic charge, that would serve as either attractant or repellant to another film.

A finger could "smudge" them - creating pockets. Anything is possible.

If you've put a glass screen protector on your smartphone and inadvertently "smudged" the sticky side, then you know what I am saying. Although in that case, the glass is not flimsy - so only your smartphone's screen is affected; not both the screen and the protector.

All that is needed is to disrupt the silver halide grains in the combined negative such that it can't develop sharply. Traces of water could get stuck between negatives. Anything, really.

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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:21 am

But in this case it's not the matter of the edges being merely unsharp, it's the matter of the double image, which is especially clearly visible at the top. This means that part of the man (whether 3- or 2-D) had to move *during* the process. Knowing about the problems you've described, surely the collage would have been fixed in place somehow? (But even assuming that not, it's anyway not something that would have gotten past an otherwise expert forger).

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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby blake121666 » Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:40 pm

Sergey_Romanov wrote:But in this case it's not the matter of the edges being merely unsharp, it's the matter of the double image, which is especially clearly visible at the top. This means that part of the man (whether 3- or 2-D) had to move *during* the process. Knowing about the problems you've described, surely the collage would have been fixed in place somehow? (But even assuming that not, it's anyway not something that would have gotten past an otherwise expert forger).


Not "collage"; I suggested a Combination print. I was speculating that you copy a negative (or just use the original), cut out the piece you want (or mask it), and combine that with another to make yet another negative. A double image could, and would, occur if there were a gap or movement between the 2 negatives whilst creating the third negative. Imagine straight rays of light hitting the silver grains and then the top negative moves and the ghost image is made. Likewise, the arm fuzziness could be an edge like you imagine.

At any rate, I think it more sensible to go with your explanation with the info we have today: The Toncman print is the sharpest, the Toncman-less prints would've been easy to touch up because there's little detail to the touch-up areas, and therefore assuming the Toncman print to be the original is the logical way to go.

Why the knothole was touched-up on the Toncman print is a head-scratcher. And the second horizontal wooden bunk rail behind Toncman's right arm might be a little off - very hard to tell though.

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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby scrmbldggs » Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:53 pm

The knothole wasn't "touched up" - it (and the number) was replaced by a twice-used segment of the pole (and ground) you see right above it. Each time it was used, the slice was shifted to the right a little, imitating natural cracks.

And if you put a ruler on the bunk rail, the small part lines up nicely with the longer section, even though it tapers because of the perspective.
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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby blake121666 » Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:07 am

scrmbldggs wrote:The knothole wasn't "touched up" - it (and the number) was replaced by a twice-used segment of the pole (and ground) you see right above it. Each time it was used, the slice was shifted to the right a little, imitating natural cracks.

And if you put a ruler on the bunk rail, the small part lines up nicely with the longer section, even though it tapers because of the perspective.


Oh, yes. That makes sense. I was thinking about it wrong. The number was put on the photo early and THEN removed in that way. That's probably it.

And yes, the bunk rail looks to be a perspective thing as well. I was going to mention that but didn't.

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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Aug 04, 2017 1:02 am

:-D
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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby BRoI » Fri Aug 04, 2017 10:13 am

Sergey_Romanov wrote:Words like "doctoring" or accusations against particular persons wholly stem from the Bun Bun's overactive imagination.

Thanks for demonstrating that you've not even bothered familiarising yourself with the published literature on matter as you pick up and run with Gord's idea of *if we don't call it doctored then it's not doctored*

These are the studies I own, but I've also read The Commissar Vanishes in the library:

Image

This is from Jaubert's study:

Image

From Brugioni's:

Image

Any bozo with internet access can instantly find countless examples of the NYT referring to the process of manipulating photographs passed off as genuine as doctored/doctor/doctoring. But Romanov is on record claiming I have dreamt up the term. Jeez, I'm starting to seriously worry about him.


Sergey_Romanov wrote:Words like "doctoring" or accusations against particular persons wholly stem from the Bun Bun's overactive imagination.

Romanov claims he has proven the Sunday NYT dun did it, but he doesn't want to say that the only person at the Sunday NYT who could have ordered the photo be doctored [Lester Markel] had anything to do with it.

Romanov is aping David Irving. Both claim an organisation did something whilst maintaining the leaders of the organisations had nothing to do with it.
Last edited by BRoI on Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby BRoI » Fri Aug 04, 2017 10:51 am


... the Sunday magazine, which is surely the best Sunday magazine published by any newspaper. Mr. Markel will tell you all about it and he is right in being proud of it.

- Extract of speech given 21 February 1945, by Edwin L. James, managing editor of the NYT since 1932, war correspondent and chief European correspondent of the NYT.

cf. John E. Wade et al., The Newspaper: It's Making and its Meaning, NYC: C. Scribner's Sons, 1945, p.15
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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby BRoI » Fri Aug 04, 2017 11:38 am

Balsamo wrote:So, Rabbit, what is your theory about all this?


Unlike Romanov and the others who claim to have proven the NYT dun did it, I only have a theory. As it's only a theory, it can adapt as necessary when further information is discovered.

Harold Denny, a NYT front-line correspondent and the author of the NYTM article obtained a copy, and, on c.24 April, wired it to the NYT along with the article he had been commissioned to write on Buchenwald for the magazine—much of which he plagiarised from his friend Edward Ward's 18 April account of Buchenwald, and contains no news of events that occurred after 23 April at the very latest [NYTM articles were planned weeks in advance].

How did Denny get it?
Depends who actually took the photo. If it was "Private Harry Miller", Denny had been a front-line correspondent for years, each and everyday he was with the US Army, he is *supposed* to have been at Buchenwald the day after the photo was taken and even mentions horrific photos in the article.

On the other hand, if it was Lee Miller; Denny and Miller's paths crossed frequently in April '45, he could have obtained a print from her, perhaps in exchange for a hot tip e.g. the location of the bodies of the mayor of Leipzig and his family after carrying out their suicide pact. He found those bodies, she was one of the people who photographed them, and Denny was roundly criticised for having hidden their location from other reporters.

Who doctored it and when?
Signal Corps experts assigned to the PWD to create their important propaganda publication KZ: Bildbericht aus fünf Konzentrationslagern, in between 16-28 April. Although the PWD would not have known that Denny had already wired a copy of the original to the NYT when they decided to include the doctored version in the pamphlet, and also distributed a copy of the doctored version to the press on c.28/29 April.
"... these witnesses would swear to anything if it gets the Germans killed."
- Solomon Surowitz, Assistant Prosecutor at the 1947 Buchenwald trial.

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Balsamo
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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby Balsamo » Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:06 pm

Thank you...
But then, why would Signal Corps experts have doctored the picture? The publication is full of naked bodies, so one can exclude any moral motives.

Your theory is plausible, but lacks the "WHY?"

Do you imply that the experts would have picked some of the pictures to make them kind of "press friendly" for the US press? while keeping the untouched ones for their "propaganda publication"?

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BRoI
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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby BRoI » Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:08 pm

Sergey_Romanov wrote:Further implausibility of the Bunny CT: the Signal Corps doctors the photo by adding the man; then someone puts a number on it. Then, instead of using the original doctored photo they had already had, they instead took the photo with the number, deleted the number in a very crude way and stamped the photo with their symbol. The Bunny's CTs are the most Rube Goldbergesque I've seen. His Mogilev footage CT was just as ridiculous.

Straw man *yawn*

Don't forget, I haven't spoonfed you everything I have gone to so much trouble to obtain.

And, of course, you haven't noticed that the serial number appears in two different places on versions of it that—unlike the 2005 NARA CD-rom version—can be precisely dated to 1945.

Image

Don't forget to credit me, Mr. Plagiarist.
Last edited by BRoI on Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"... these witnesses would swear to anything if it gets the Germans killed."
- Solomon Surowitz, Assistant Prosecutor at the 1947 Buchenwald trial.


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