Lester Markel did nothing wrong

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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby BRoI » Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:25 pm

Balsamo wrote:Thank you...
But then, why would Signal Corps experts have doctored the picture? The publication is full of naked bodies, so one can exclude any moral motives.

Your theory is plausible, but lacks the "WHY?"

Thanks for that at least. The photo's caption in KZ claims the prisoners had no room to move. Such a claim is rendered absurd when the original version shows that the rest of the bunks were entirely empty.

The composite version was created using Toncman to cover the empty bunks.

Balsamo wrote:Do you imply that the experts would have picked some of the pictures to make them kind of "press friendly" for the US press? while keeping the untouched ones for their "propaganda publication"?

No, not at all.

The PWD were unaware that Denny had obtained an original version and sent it to NY for publication.
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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Fri Aug 04, 2017 8:41 pm

> Thanks for demonstrating that you've not even bothered familiarising yourself with the published literature on matter as you pick up and run with Gord's idea of *if we don't call it doctored then it's not doctored*

> But Romanov is on record claiming I have dreamt up the term.

I didn't say it was or was not "doctored". I don't claim that *your* use of the term is inaccurate (or accurate). And I obviously don't claim you "dreamt up the term" ROTFL. I simply pointed out that it was the word *you* used while making a misleading claim that could lead someone to believe that *I* had used the word (and that I accused a particular individual of "doctoring", too). As usual, you're a bit dim, since the point of what I wrote whooshed completely past you.

> Mr. Plagiarist.

Heh, and you prove that you're a pathological liar once again. But we knew that already, didn't we.

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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby blake121666 » Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:03 pm

Let's see a repository of any and all pictures we have of this scene: with and without Toncman. Because as we have it right now, the most high resolution pictures we have are pictures that have the knothole touched up. Is that not the case? And Toncman is the only blurry thing in those higher resoltution pics. The bunk people are clearer than Toncman there.

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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:07 pm

I consider the matter to have been closed a long time ago, but since you ask nicely ;)
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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:12 pm

>Why the knothole was touched-up on the Toncman print is a head-scratcher.

Haven't I explained it above?

"There is nothing strange, a fragment of wood texture was copied two times over the number (thus also covering the knothole). You can see the repeating pattern. Which shows the extent of the mad skillz of the Signal Corps guy who retouched this version."

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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby blake121666 » Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:14 pm

Well notice the shadows of the lower bunks - running NE to SW. But Toncman's shadow (and the right posts's shadow) runs SE to NW.

This of course can be easily explained as there having been multiple light sources; but it could be that Toncman was combined into that print.
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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:16 pm

As is the post shadow. And?

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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:16 pm

But there is zero evidence he was combined into that print.

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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby blake121666 » Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:19 pm

Sergey_Romanov wrote:But there is zero evidence he was combined into that print.


Toncman is least sharp. His lighting is different. That is not "zero evidence". The knothole is modified on the sharpest prints.

We might have insufficient reason to claim this; but there is not zero evidence for such a thing.

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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:23 pm

> A double image could, and would, occur if there were a gap or movement between the 2 negatives whilst creating the third negative. Imagine straight rays of light hitting the silver grains and then the top negative moves and the ghost image is made.

Aside from the sheer implausibility of it "moving" all of a sudden in the middle of the process (why?) and the expert forger not noticing it (absurd), had it moved, it would have moved as a piece, thus leaving the "ghost" image not only at the top.

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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby blake121666 » Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:24 pm

Sergey_Romanov wrote:I consider the matter to have been closed a long time ago, but since you ask nicely ;)


Wow, I didn't click your link until now. That is probably the highest res of seen of this. I thought your link went to HC for me to read through that again.

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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby blake121666 » Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:25 pm

Sergey_Romanov wrote:> A double image could, and would, occur if there were a gap or movement between the 2 negatives whilst creating the third negative. Imagine straight rays of light hitting the silver grains and then the top negative moves and the ghost image is made.

Aside from the sheer implausibility of it "moving" all of a sudden in the middle of the process (why?) and the expert forger not noticing it (absurd), had it moved, it would have moved as a piece, thus leaving the "ghost" image not only at the top.


No, the light source could "move".

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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:26 pm

blake121666 wrote:
Sergey_Romanov wrote:But there is zero evidence he was combined into that print.


Toncman is least sharp. His lighting is different. That is not "zero evidence". The knothole is modified on the sharpest prints.

We might have insufficient reason to claim this; but there is not zero evidence for such a thing.


The knothole is irrelevant to the whole issue, as has been explained 3 times already.

Toncman's lighting/shadow fits exactly with the scene.

It's not clear what you mean by "least sharp". If you mean the motion blur, it's a point against forgery, as already explained.

There is zero evidence for any forgery hypothesis.

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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:28 pm

blake121666 wrote:
Sergey_Romanov wrote:> A double image could, and would, occur if there were a gap or movement between the 2 negatives whilst creating the third negative. Imagine straight rays of light hitting the silver grains and then the top negative moves and the ghost image is made.

Aside from the sheer implausibility of it "moving" all of a sudden in the middle of the process (why?) and the expert forger not noticing it (absurd), had it moved, it would have moved as a piece, thus leaving the "ghost" image not only at the top.


No, the light source could "move".


You wrote: "top negative moves". I'm missing your point. Is that yet another hypothesis now?

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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby blake121666 » Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:31 pm

Sergey_Romanov wrote:
blake121666 wrote:
Sergey_Romanov wrote:> A double image could, and would, occur if there were a gap or movement between the 2 negatives whilst creating the third negative. Imagine straight rays of light hitting the silver grains and then the top negative moves and the ghost image is made.

Aside from the sheer implausibility of it "moving" all of a sudden in the middle of the process (why?) and the expert forger not noticing it (absurd), had it moved, it would have moved as a piece, thus leaving the "ghost" image not only at the top.


No, the light source could "move".


You wrote: "top negative moves". I'm missing your point. Is that yet another hypothesis now?


Yes, it could've been done in any of a number of ways.

BRoI needs to speculate about the process as well. We can then evaluate the feasibility of each.
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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:32 pm

blake121666 wrote:
Sergey_Romanov wrote:I consider the matter to have been closed a long time ago, but since you ask nicely ;)


Wow, I didn't click your link until now. That is probably the highest res of seen of this. I thought your link went to HC for me to read through that again.

The version from the DOD site, with the retouched knothole, is more hi-res. But this one will do too.

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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:32 pm

blake121666 wrote:
Sergey_Romanov wrote:
blake121666 wrote:
Sergey_Romanov wrote:> A double image could, and would, occur if there were a gap or movement between the 2 negatives whilst creating the third negative. Imagine straight rays of light hitting the silver grains and then the top negative moves and the ghost image is made.

Aside from the sheer implausibility of it "moving" all of a sudden in the middle of the process (why?) and the expert forger not noticing it (absurd), had it moved, it would have moved as a piece, thus leaving the "ghost" image not only at the top.


No, the light source could "move".


You wrote: "top negative moves". I'm missing your point. Is that yet another hypothesis now?


Yes, it could've been done in any of a number of ways.

How would a light source moving cause anything like that?

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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby blake121666 » Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:35 pm

Sergey_Romanov wrote:
blake121666 wrote:
Sergey_Romanov wrote:
blake121666 wrote:
Sergey_Romanov wrote:> A double image could, and would, occur if there were a gap or movement between the 2 negatives whilst creating the third negative. Imagine straight rays of light hitting the silver grains and then the top negative moves and the ghost image is made.

Aside from the sheer implausibility of it "moving" all of a sudden in the middle of the process (why?) and the expert forger not noticing it (absurd), had it moved, it would have moved as a piece, thus leaving the "ghost" image not only at the top.


No, the light source could "move".


You wrote: "top negative moves". I'm missing your point. Is that yet another hypothesis now?


Yes, it could've been done in any of a number of ways.

How would a light source moving cause anything like that?


If there were no gap it would not. WITH a gap, the light extends away and distorts lengths (the gap length on a diagonal ray): a ghost image would be created along that diagonal.

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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby blake121666 » Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:38 pm

There are at least 2 light sources in the pic. One about shoulder high from the right and probably behind Toncman. And one from the front right of the picture pointing NW.

Both pointing downward. Both at around shoulder height.

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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:45 pm

BRoI wrote:
Sergey_Romanov wrote:Further implausibility of the Bunny CT: the Signal Corps doctors the photo by adding the man; then someone puts a number on it. Then, instead of using the original doctored photo they had already had, they instead took the photo with the number, deleted the number in a very crude way and stamped the photo with their symbol. The Bunny's CTs are the most Rube Goldbergesque I've seen. His Mogilev footage CT was just as ridiculous.

Straw man *yawn*

Note that the Lying Wabbit has never actually addressed the point, instead pivoting to the irrelevant point about two numbers.

The print that stems from the Signal Corps - bearing its emblem - is the one with the retouched knothole, signifying they did not have a ready access to the negative.

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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:48 pm

blake121666 wrote:
Sergey_Romanov wrote:
blake121666 wrote:
Sergey_Romanov wrote:
blake121666 wrote:
Sergey_Romanov wrote:> A double image could, and would, occur if there were a gap or movement between the 2 negatives whilst creating the third negative. Imagine straight rays of light hitting the silver grains and then the top negative moves and the ghost image is made.

Aside from the sheer implausibility of it "moving" all of a sudden in the middle of the process (why?) and the expert forger not noticing it (absurd), had it moved, it would have moved as a piece, thus leaving the "ghost" image not only at the top.


No, the light source could "move".


You wrote: "top negative moves". I'm missing your point. Is that yet another hypothesis now?


Yes, it could've been done in any of a number of ways.

How would a light source moving cause anything like that?


If there were no gap it would not. WITH a gap, the light extends away and distorts lengths (the gap length on a diagonal ray): a ghost image would be created along that diagonal.


It remains to be demonstrated that anything like that would appear with this scenario. The motion blur has been replicated. Your hypothesis is purely theoretical.

Now there's a gap, and a moving light source, and an expert forger who did not notice, and, and... I'll stick to the model without so many epicycles, thanks.


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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:56 pm

It's probably "the" original, given the details.

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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby blake121666 » Fri Aug 04, 2017 10:00 pm

We definitely need the negative(s) from which these pictures came.

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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Fri Aug 04, 2017 10:05 pm

Maybe you do.

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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby blake121666 » Fri Aug 04, 2017 10:30 pm

The one with the largest field of view is from Cambridge. I don't have access to it; but google images can access it thusly:

https://static.cambridge.org/resource/id/urn:cambridge.org:id:binary:20160822094332813-0861:03407plt9.png?pub-status=live

It looks pretty sharp to my eyes here as well. I propose that this particular print is one of the first (if not THE first) prints of this picture.

1. Largest field of view
2. No numbers or knothole touch-up
3. Fairly sharp (srutinize the bunk slats).

This one should be the base picture that we describe any others from (unless there is a better candidate out there). It looks to be the least modified of what I've seen.

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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Aug 04, 2017 11:04 pm

BRoI wrote:...The photo's caption in KZ claims the prisoners had no room to move. Such a claim is rendered absurd when the original version shows that the rest of the bunks were entirely empty...

I think that's bunkum. They didn't need to be filled at the time the/any photo was taken, eh. And in this one, it seems several bunks held at least three men. (And I count at least three to four men in the last ones. One is just a heap under a blanket in the bottom bunk, but it stands to reason there could be a person under it.)


Before you ask, look at the last man in the top row - he's beyond the bunk post over Toncman's right shoulder - therefore on the fourth vertical row. There's the one peeking out from between his ribs and arm and it seems one can also see his blanket. And to Toncman's right lower arm/wrist, one sees the face of an inmate clearly behind the post of the third bunk (counting from the first full vertical row). And under that, one sees a blanket apparently covering a body in the last bottom bunk. (I count 29 men in that image altogether, including that blanket heap.)
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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby Balsamo » Sat Aug 05, 2017 1:08 am

Rabbit,

Really, it is a topic hard to follow when you did not participate to the start of it.
So you theory is that Toncman has been added by the experts of Signal Corpses in order not to contradict or to illustrate a sentence, that is that "they had no room to move?"

So if i follow - which is not sure - your claim is that the original is without Toncman? Of that Toncman has been removed and the background painted in order to to see that there were "room to move"?

Guys! So much fuss for such small thing!

Man, if the whole controversy is to prove that some picture were ...well kind of set up by the photographers, as it is quite obvious on other pictures, i wonder why you focus on this one?

What does it change anyway?

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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby Denying-History » Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:49 am

Balsamo wrote:Rabbit,

Really, it is a topic hard to follow when you did not participate to the start of it.
So you theory is that Toncman has been added by the experts of Signal Corpses in order not to contradict or to illustrate a sentence, that is that "they had no room to move?"

So if i follow - which is not sure - your claim is that the original is without Toncman? Of that Toncman has been removed and the background painted in order to to see that there were "room to move"?

Guys! So much fuss for such small thing!

Man, if the whole controversy is to prove that some picture were ...well kind of set up by the photographers, as it is quite obvious on other pictures, i wonder why you focus on this one?

What does it change anyway?


I answered this question a while ago. It changes a single person in a photograph.
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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Sat Aug 05, 2017 5:35 am

> So you theory is that Toncman has been added by the experts of Signal Corpses in order not to contradict or to illustrate a sentence, that is that "they had no room to move?"

And this idiocy is fully circular because the Rabbit bases this on the assumption that the photo retouched by the NYTM actually wasn't. I.e. there is no other reason whatsoever except the ad hoc one. The Rabbit cannot show that the sentence was not based on the original photo with the standing man. Moreover, this photo has people on the bunks behind the standing man, something the NYTM retoucher wouldn't have been able to recreate, so he simply deleted everything in the area - another point against the convoluted CT.

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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Sat Aug 05, 2017 5:50 am

So let's recap:

- no plausible motive
- no plausible hypothesis as to how only one allegedly original photo got out
- CTs are inherently implausible and require solid evidence, none is available
- no plausible reason as to why this CT has to be the preferred theory
- no plausible explanation of the missing bunk post
- no plausible explanation of the missing people on the last bunks
- no plausible explanation of the motion blur
- no plausible explanation as to why such fine details as a textured shadow and motion blur were added
- no plausible explanation of why the Signal Corps had to delete the number for their print if the negative was manipulated by them in the first place

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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby blake121666 » Sat Aug 05, 2017 3:02 pm

So why was Toncman taken out of the picture? And how was that done?

Why wouldn't he just be cropped out? Or another photo used (there's at least one other showing essentially the same thing w/o a naked man in it)?

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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby scrmbldggs » Sat Aug 05, 2017 5:10 pm

:|
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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby BRoI » Sun Aug 06, 2017 1:43 pm

blake121666 wrote:The one with the largest field of view is from Cambridge. I don't have access to it; but google images can access it thusly:

https://static.cambridge.org/resource/id/urn:cambridge.org:id:binary:20160822094332813-0861:03407plt9.png?pub-status=live

It looks pretty sharp to my eyes here as well. I propose that this particular print is one of the first (if not THE first) prints of this picture.

1. Largest field of view
2. No numbers or knothole touch-up
3. Fairly sharp (srutinize the bunk slats).

This one should be the base picture that we describe any others from (unless there is a better candidate out there). It looks to be the least modified of what I've seen.


I think that's either:

a] A scan from the print that's in the Film & Photography Archive of the Imperial War Museum, London [All Saints Annex, Austral Street] and is online here.

I went to see the actual print a few years ago, writing at the time:

BRoI wrote:Another version of the photo is held by the Imperial War Museum, London. It originates from a collection of approximately 250,000 photographs donated to the museum by the US Embassy in 1947.


The photos are [all?] in green volumes.

b] Or possibly, the US Embassy also donated a copy of collection to Cambridge University as well as one to the IWM.
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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby Oozy_Substance » Mon Aug 07, 2017 5:11 pm

Why is it important if the skinny man was inserted into the original picture or was removed from the original picture?

Another picture of him exists, I do remember, so he clearly was in the camp and he was clearly reduced to this level of starvation. This is the crime.

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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Aug 07, 2017 5:23 pm

Oozy_Substance wrote:Why is it important if the skinny man was inserted into the original picture or was removed from the original picture?
.


No one is really sure...I'm sure the Rabbit feels like this is an important point but for life of me I don't know why. Even if the picture was doctored in some way it doesn't change what the other men in the room looked like. It also doesn't change what the allies found in the other camps in Germany.

From what I can tell it is likely that the first publication removed the man from the picture to not upset the sensibilities of 1945 America. Later this was fixed to show the original picture. Even if this poor fellow was added later to somehow ramp up the shock factor, as I said, the other men in the room look terrible and it doesn't change what the allies filmed and recorded outside.

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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby Denying-History » Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:07 pm

Oozy_Substance wrote:Why is it important if the skinny man was inserted into the original picture or was removed from the original picture?

Another picture of him exists, I do remember, so he clearly was in the camp and he was clearly reduced to this level of starvation. This is the crime.


I asked this earlier, but it seems you don't know the Rabbit that well. He's pretty much a cynical {!#%@} who presses his time on non issues just to badger others on minor issues. He believes he proved the photograph to be fake and Sergey from Holocaust controversies believes he proved otherwise. Now all it has come to is Rabbit badgering a dead subject, that relies on just as much speculation from both sides to claim which photograph is forgued.

One blames the NYT's the other blames I believe the US military (honestly I haven't bothered to reread rabbits accusation).
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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:53 pm

Oozy_Substance wrote:Why is it important if the skinny man was inserted into the original picture or was removed from the original picture?

Another picture of him exists, I do remember, so he clearly was in the camp and he was clearly reduced to this level of starvation. This is the crime.

Seems here's Simon Toncman and two others in front of bunk 27* in image 203648-[missing]. Maybe they thought it best he sit down after being wobbly on his feet?

* (From http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... 0camp.html)

ETA Image
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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:20 am

What is the # of the image where the doctors of photos are said to have gotten the image of Toncman, from which they are said to have created 203647-S? Where and when was that image taken?
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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby scrmbldggs » Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:23 am

I think you might mean my first edit-ion. :lol:
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