Can we have another one on the Korherr Report?

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Can we have another one on the Korherr Report?

Postby Oozy_Substance » Thu Jun 29, 2017 1:27 pm

When I debate with h-deniers online - as much as anyone can actually 'debate' these auto-pilot bots that only spout lies and decade-old memes - I bring up the Korherr Report as my first solid argument.

If H-Denial was a hot air balloon aiming for the skies, the Korherr Report is a 10000 tons weight holding it to the Earth, in my opinion.

I feel it's one of the most framing documents of extermination of Jews by the Nazis during WWII.

The translation of it is here, it's pretty lengthy, so I don't truly recall it all, but I do remember a few crucial points that appear in it :

4. Transportation of Jews from the
eastern provinces to the Russian
East: ............................ 1 449 692 "
The following numbers were sifted
through the camps in the General
Government ............. ........ 1 274 166 Jews
through the camps in the Warthegau..... 145 301 Jews


This is backed by the letter by Himmler to Korherr telling him to remove the wording "special treatment" that was originally included in this text.

This alone is enough to make the entire narrative and worldview of the h-deniers to break apart. If we accept Korherr Report as truth, then that means 1 274 166 + 145 301 were transported to the "Russian East" within a very small time frame (2nd half of 1942). This is not impossible, and even if it did, it would have left tons of evidence, yet there are none.

Similarly, also this section bears similar meaning :

6. In addition, according to data from
the Reichssicherheitshauptamt
there is the evacuation of…………………. 633 300 Jews
in the Russian territories
incl. the former Baltic
countries since the beginning of the
Eastern Campaign.


Combine the numbers 1,274,166 + 145,301 + 633,300 and you get 2,052,767 Jews that were either extemrinated or deported to Russia. If h-deniers insist they were deported to Russia they should present even 1 single proof for that. It should be super easy. Yet there is no such proof, and this is how h-denial hits the bucket.

I also like to quote this section to deniers who claim that "there were no 6 million Jews in German-Occupied territories"

The total number of Jews in the world in 1937 is generally estimated at around 17 million, thereof more than 10 million in Europe. They concentrate or concentrated mainly in the former Polish-Russian areas occupied by Germany between the Baltic Sea and the Gulf of Finland and between the Black Sea and the Sea of Azov, further in the centers of commerce and the Rhine area of Central and Western Europe and on the coasts of the Mediterranean.


I do remember there are more framing sections in the Korherr Report, I do recall the user NathanC saying something about this wording by the end of the document :

It must not be overlooked in this respect that of the deaths of Soviet Russian Jews in the occupied Eastern territories only a part was recorded, whereas deaths in the rest of European Russia and at the front are not included at all.


I cannot truly grasp the meaning of it by myself, if anyone can help it would be nice. Also if you can point on more framing pieces of text in this report it would be good.

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Re: Can we have another one on the Korherr Report?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jun 29, 2017 1:33 pm

"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Can we have another one on the Korherr Report?

Postby Oozy_Substance » Thu Jun 29, 2017 1:52 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:NathanC on that; a post I made later on it


Thanks, I'll look into it.

I just noticed something else, in the short version, which I never looked into. It ends with :

In total it is likely that since 1933, i.e. in the first decade of National Socialist power, European Jewry lost almost half of its stock.
Thereof again only half, i.e. a quarter of the European total stock in 1937, is likely to have gone to the other continents.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I read it as "Europe lost half of its Jews, and half of this half - a quarter - moved to other continents"

But if Europe lost a half, what happened to the quarter that did not move to other continents then?

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Re: Can we have another one on the Korherr Report?

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Thu Jun 29, 2017 6:01 pm

An important point about the KR is that SB in it originates with the RSHA where it meant exclusively killing. This forestalls the usual denier objection that it could have meant something else because some Nazi documents use it in other ways. Yes, some do, but not the RSHA docs.

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Re: Can we have another one on the Korherr Report?

Postby Oozy_Substance » Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:33 am

Sergey_Romanov wrote:An important point about the KR is that SB in it originates with the RSHA where it meant exclusively killing. This forestalls the usual denier objection that it could have meant something else because some Nazi documents use it in other ways. Yes, some do, but not the RSHA docs.


What's SB?

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Re: Can we have another one on the Korherr Report?

Postby Balmoral95 » Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:48 am

Oozy_Substance wrote:
Sergey_Romanov wrote:An important point about the KR is that SB in it originates with the RSHA where it meant exclusively killing. This forestalls the usual denier objection that it could have meant something else because some Nazi documents use it in other ways. Yes, some do, but not the RSHA docs.


What's SB?


"sonderbehandlung"

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Re: Can we have another one on the Korherr Report?

Postby Jeff_36 » Sat Jul 01, 2017 4:11 am

Sergey_Romanov wrote:An important point about the KR is that SB in it originates with the RSHA where it meant exclusively killing. This forestalls the usual denier objection that it could have meant something else because some Nazi documents use it in other ways. Yes, some do, but not the RSHA docs.


Additionally, we have the bit where it was mentioned that the listed Jews were "not in ghettos or KL's". That one sentence does tremendous damage to the resettlement theory.

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Re: Can we have another one on the Korherr Report?

Postby Oozy_Substance » Mon Jul 03, 2017 4:59 am

Jeff_36 wrote:
Sergey_Romanov wrote:An important point about the KR is that SB in it originates with the RSHA where it meant exclusively killing. This forestalls the usual denier objection that it could have meant something else because some Nazi documents use it in other ways. Yes, some do, but not the RSHA docs.


Additionally, we have the bit where it was mentioned that the listed Jews were "not in ghettos or KL's". That one sentence does tremendous damage to the resettlement theory.


Hmmm.. let me try to get it straight. If we were to look on the entire paragraph :

V. THE EVACUATION OF THE JEWS

The evacuation of the Jews replaced the emigration of the Jews, at least on the territory of the Reich. It was extensively prepared since the prohibition of Jewish emigration in the autumn of 1941 and to a large extent carried out throughout the Reich territory in the year 1942. In the balance of Jewry it is referred to as "off-going".
Until 1.1.1943, according to the records of the Reichssicherheitshauptamt, the following numbers went off:

From the Old Reich with Sudetenland 100 516 Jews
From the Ostmark 47 555 "
From the Protectorate 69 677 "
Sum 217 748 Jews

In these numbers the Jews evacuated to the old-age ghetto Theresienstadt are also included.

All evacuations on the territory of the Reich and including the eastern territories and further in the German area of power and influence in Europe from October 1939 or later until 31.12.1942 resulted in the following numbers:

1. Evacuation of Jews from Baden
and the Palatinate to France ....... 6 504 Jews
2. Evacuation of Jews from the Reich
territory incl. the Protectorate and
Bialystok district to the East...... 170 642 "
3. Evacuation of Jews from the Reich
area and the Protectorate
to Theresienstadt................. 87 193
4. Transportation of Jews from the
eastern provinces to the Russian
East: ............................ 1 449 692 "
The following numbers were sifted
through the camps in the General
Government ............. ........ 1 274 166 Jews
through the camps in the Warthegau..... 145 301 Jews
5. Evacuation from other
countries, namely:
France (insofar as occupied
before 10.11.1942 )............................... 41 911 Jews
Netherlands........................................... 38 571 "
Belgium................................................. 16 886 "
Norway ..................................................... 532 "

Slovakia................................................. 56 691 Jews
Crotia ............. ... 4 927 "
------------------------------

Evacuations total(incl.
Theresienstadt and incl.
special treatment)............................. 1 873 549 Jews
w./o Theresienstadt.......................... 1 786 356 "

6. In addition, according to data from
the Reichssicherheitshauptamt
there is the evacuation of…………………. 633 300 Jews
in the Russian territories
incl. the former Baltic
countries since the beginning of the
Eastern Campaign.

The above numbers do not include the inmates of ghettoes and concentration camps.
The evacuations from Slovakia and Croatia were carried out by these states themselves.


Some things are not clear to me :

From the Old Reich with Sudetenland 100 516 Jews
From the Ostmark 47 555 "
From the Protectorate 69 677 "
Sum 217 748 Jews


What do these numbers refer to? Jews that left Germany/Austria on their own, or were they expelled? Or maybe these figures also imply killing?

Also :

1. Evacuation of Jews from Baden
and the Palatinate to France ....... 6 504 Jews


Was there a deportation of Jews into France?

Also :

2. Evacuation of Jews from the Reich
territory incl. the Protectorate and
Bialystok district to the East...... 170 642 "


What is the meaning of "the East" here? It is not the "Russian east", mentioned in section 4, so what is it?

3. Evacuation of Jews from the Reich
area and the Protectorate
to Theresienstadt................. 87 193


Here I wonder why is Theresienstadt especially mentioned? Also, why is it especially mentioned in the summary of this list? (including Theresienstadt, w/o Theresienstadt)

5. Evacuation from other
countries, namely:
France (insofar as occupied
before 10.11.1942 )............................... 41 911 Jews
Netherlands........................................... 38 571 "
Belgium................................................. 16 886 "
Norway ..................................................... 532 "

Slovakia................................................. 56 691 Jews
Crotia ............. ... 4 927 "
------------------------------


What about these figures? Do they also indicate on killing?

The above numbers do not include the inmates of ghettoes and concentration camps.


So what is the meaning of this sentence indeed?

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Re: Can we have another one on the Korherr Report?

Postby Oozy_Substance » Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:07 am

Kinda bumping this thread because I hoped some sort of discussion would start. :(

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Re: Can we have another one on the Korherr Report?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:09 pm

Oozy_Substance wrote:Kinda bumping this thread because I hoped some sort of discussion would start. :(


Sorry, Oozy. Going to have to wait a couple of days.

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Re: Can we have another one on the Korherr Report?

Postby Oozy_Substance » Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:29 am

So let's give it another try.
This is time it's Treblinka-related.

So I had another short round against deniers, and the deniers raised some questions of Treblinka in the shape of, how was it possible to kill 900,000 Jews and hide all their bodies?

That reminds me of the Korherr Report, when you cross Korherr Report and the Hofle Telegram, you get that 713,555 Jews were killed in Trelbinka by the end of 1942. Treblinka was operational since July 1942, so that's like half a year. I must say this is a tremendous amount for a half a year. About 4000 deaths by day. How do histroians deal with these figures?

And of course the denier alterntaive, which speaks of "deportations to the East" is far-fetched, as the rate of 4000 Jews being deported per day would have left tons of evidence, yet there is none and of course all these Jews would have been trying to come back at some point.

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Re: Can we have another one on the Korherr Report?

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Wed Jul 19, 2017 4:39 pm

At that time the bodies were being buried in gigantic mass graves. Let's say there were 500 Jews to deal with 4000 per day average. That's 8 bodies per worker per day. Sounds doable?

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Re: Can we have another one on the Korherr Report?

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Wed Jul 19, 2017 4:44 pm

Let's assume a 12h work day. Also 15 min. per corpse. That's 48 corpses per day per worker. 83 workers for 4000 bodies under these conditions.

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Re: Can we have another one on the Korherr Report?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:12 pm

The other worthwhile angle to pursue is the deportations, if the interest is in numbers sent to Treblinka. Arad's book on the Einsatz Reinhard camps has tables in the back on this, HEART has a summary here, and the Wikipedia time line can be found here. There are some disagreements among these summaries on detail but not on rough number. Different locales have documentation, which matches well with what camp inmates later wrote or said; just Warsaw, with robust documentation for the expulsion of between 280,000 and 300,000+ between 22 July and 21 Septemberr, solves ~40% of your 1942 problem. Częstochowa, Kielce, Radom, Piotrków, and other ghettos had 5-figure deportations during this time. The number of daily arrivals could reach as high as 15,000. Treblinka was in no way suited to retain these numbers of deportees - e.g., in just the first week of transports, somewhere around 50,000 Warsaw Jews were brought to the little camp.

Eric Hunt begged revisionists to help him find Warsaw Jews sent somewhere other than Treblinka during 1942. No one replied to his web-appeal. I could have helped him find about 11,580 - that's the number (not included in the totals above) removed from the ghetto via the Dulag to work-camps. Another several 1000 were able to escape to the Aryan side of Warsaw (and are thus not included in the totals above).
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Can we have another one on the Korherr Report?

Postby Balsamo » Wed Jul 19, 2017 6:41 pm

Hi Oozy,
some answers open to corrections.

What do these numbers refer to? Jews that left Germany/Austria on their own, or were they expelled? Or maybe these figures also imply killing?


Just as it says, these are the numbers of evacuation recorded since the prohibition of emigration, that is October 41 up to 1.1.43.
Evacuation is not emigration, but deportation. I don't think one can conclude that the deportees were all killed.

The following points are the recapitulation with more details, theoretically from 39 to 43.

Was there a deportation of Jews into France?


Indeed.

What is the meaning of "the East" here? It is not the "Russian east", mentioned in section 4, so what is it?


Well, actually it means just that : East, that is territories eastward of Germany, in the hand of the RSHA.
"Russian East" had to be kind of invented as those who were "deported there" were already in the East, so they were "deported " from the east to another East, the Russian one. Note that at point V.6 they managed to "evacuate" Jews from the "russian East" to the "Russian East"... :|

Here I wonder why is Theresienstadt especially mentioned? Also, why is it especially mentioned in the summary of this list? (including Theresienstadt, w/o Theresienstadt)


Because the people sent to Theresienstadt had also been evacuated from the Greater Reich.

What about these figures? Do they also indicate on killing?


Well the report is not about killing, i will explain later.
We know that most of those transport were sent to Auschwitz, where some were selected and some killed, a tiny few came back.

So what is the meaning of this sentence indeed?


Well, it means what it says. That those Jews in Ghettos and KL and others will be counted in the following chapter, and are not counted in the chapter dedicated to Evacuation.
Even by 1943, there were still Jewish Inmates in classic concentration camps within Germany which are not counted in this report. Those will be covered in chapter VII.
By Concentration camps, Korherr explains that the concentration camps used for the "evacuation" program are not taken into consideration, so no Auschwitz Birkenau.
As for the ghettos, there were no need to include the Jews still living there as they could not be considered as still "living" within the territories. Those therefore are not to be counted as "evacuated" in the second number he gives (those without Theresienstadt) or 1 786 356 + 633 300.
The Jews still in Ghettos are counted in chapter VI.


One important aspect of this report is that its focus on how many Jews are still to be dealt with in Germany and the occupied territories, that is those who are left as opposed as those who are to be considered as "gone" whatever the way ( as it includes natural death, emigration, etc...).

Concerning the use of SB in the point V.4, of course it means murder, but not really because of the term itself, but because of what we know of AR. The documents dedicated to "Aktion Reinhardt" is full of "Sonder", as the whole mission was a "Sonderaufgabe", the SS personnel was "SonderKomandos", etc. and of course the victims were "Sonderbehandelt".

Now Korherr worked exclusively on document provided by the RSHA, and this is why the term appeared in the first draft on this chapter. By the end of 1942, Jews were also Sonderbehandelt in Birkenau - like most of those deportees from France and Belgium - but the terms does not appear because the documents Korherr received for them was probably limited to their departure from France or Belgium.
This is why the report at first seems messy and unclear on some details - probably just as messy and unclear as this post of mine :lol: - but the point is that Korherr was given the mission to evaluate how many Jews were still present within the German Reich and its occupied territories, and given data to make substraction to the pre-war estimates since 1933, and by counting how many can be considered as "gone" establish a evaluation of how many Jews are still out there and where.

Oozy:
That reminds me of the Korherr Report, when you cross Korherr Report and the Hofle Telegram, you get that 713,555 Jews were killed in Trelbinka by the end of 1942. Treblinka was operational since July 1942, so that's like half a year. I must say this is a tremendous amount for a half a year. About 4000 deaths by day. How do histroians deal with these figures?


And so what? Those were just killing centers and therefore could handle much more victims than the Kremas of Birkenau. The corpses were just thrown in huge pits, therefore no waste of time between two gassing.

OUps, Sergey said it before (as well as Statmec)

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Re: Can we have another one on the Korherr Report?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:14 pm

a couple additional points:
Balsamo wrote:Just as it says, these are the numbers of evacuation recorded since the prohibition of emigration, that is October 41 up to 1.1.43.
Evacuation is not emigration, but deportation. I don't think one can conclude that the deportees were all killed.

To project forward, to the end of the war, studies of different nations usually make an effort to estimate # of deportees who survived the war. As Balsamo says, during 1941-1942 not all deportees were killed on arrival; however, the numbers surviving deportation by war's end were small - in the 1000s for central and western European countries.

Balsamo wrote:
Was there a deportation of Jews into France?

Indeed.

Look up Operation Bürckel - Gauleiters Bürckel and Wagner deported several 1000s of Jews from their Gaue (Baden and the Saarpfalz) to France in late 1940, where they were interned mostly in the Gurs camp.

Balsamo wrote:
Here I wonder why is Theresienstadt especially mentioned? Also, why is it especially mentioned in the summary of this list? (including Theresienstadt, w/o Theresienstadt)

Because the people sent to Theresienstadt had also been evacuated from the Greater Reich.

The largest % sent to Theresienstadt came from the Protectorate - about 1/2 the camp's population during 1942. By war's end, well over half of those sent to Theresienstadt had perished, most of them after being sent on to Auschwitz or other killing centers, among them Treblinka and Minsk/Maly Trostinets.

Very roughly, off the top of my head, something like 150,000 people passed through Theresienstadt - maybe slightly fewer, again including years after Korherr's report. Just short of 90,000 were deported from Theresienstadt and all but 4,000 or so of these deportees perished. Another probably 35,000 perished from conditions in the camp. (This excludes the end phase, in late 1944 and 1945 when Theresienstadt served as a destination for prisoners from other camps.) During 1942, the deportations from Theresienstadt went mainly to Lublin area ghettos/holding places (Izbica, Piaski, etc), Treblinka, and Minsk; deportations from Theresienstadt to Birkenau began late in the year, IIRC in October. I think that there were about 50,000 Jews who went to/through Theresienstadt in 1942, and during the year over 40,000 were deported from the camp to elsewhere. I can look this up if you want.
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Re: Can we have another one on the Korherr Report?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:20 pm

From a post in another thread on Theresienstadt:
Adler estimates that

- 141,000 people were sent to and spent time in Theresienstadt prior to the end phase (over 150,000 counting end phase)
- mortality in the camp reached 33,500 (astonishing for a "showcase" and supposed "model" Jewish community! . . . especially when we consider the next two conclusions . . . )
- 88,000 people were "sent out of the camp" to a number of other places (Minsk/Maly Trostinets, Birkenau, Treblinka, Lublin ghettos, Riga)
- of the 88,000 sent elsewhere about 3,500 survived and over 84,000 were murdered

Here's a link to a post on the deportations from Theresienstadt in 1942: viewtopic.php?f=39&t=27891&start=120#p583735
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Can we have another one on the Korherr Report?

Postby Oozy_Substance » Thu Jul 20, 2017 12:35 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:The other worthwhile angle to pursue is the deportations, if the interest is in numbers sent to Treblinka. Arad's book on the Einsatz Reinhard camps has tables in the back on this, HEART has a summary here, and the Wikipedia time line can be found here. There are some disagreements among these summaries on detail but not on rough number. Different locales have documentation, which matches well with what camp inmates later wrote or said; just Warsaw, with robust documentation for the expulsion of between 280,000 and 300,000+ between 22 July and 21 Septemberr, solves ~40% of your 1942 problem. Częstochowa, Kielce, Radom, Piotrków, and other ghettos had 5-figure deportations during this time. The number of daily arrivals could reach as high as 15,000. Treblinka was in no way suited to retain these numbers of deportees - e.g., in just the first week of transports, somewhere around 50,000 Warsaw Jews were brought to the little camp.

Eric Hunt begged revisionists to help him find Warsaw Jews sent somewhere other than Treblinka during 1942. No one replied to his web-appeal. I could have helped him find about 11,580 - that's the number (not included in the totals above) removed from the ghetto via the Dulag to work-camps. Another several 1000 were able to escape to the Aryan side of Warsaw (and are thus not included in the totals above).


Thanks.
These links will be useful to me.

I kinda try to build a strategy where you can refute H-Denialism using only, or mostly, the Korherr Report and Hofle Telegram because they display an immposibility, a mass deportation of 1 to 2 million of Jews to the "Russian East" by the end of 1942.
Still the deniers are giving me a hard time :oops: "Maybe it's impossible but it doesn't mean the alternative is killing" or simply "it is possible, the Soviets have hidden all the Jews the Germans sent to their territory, and the Jews changed their names." :lol:

By the way I read somewhere the number of killings described in the Korherr Report stands on 2,454,000. Can you tell me how you can get to this specific number? I tried to play with the numbers (1,274,166, 633,300 ..) but didn't get exactly to 2,454,000.

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Re: Can we have another one on the Korherr Report?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jul 20, 2017 12:52 pm

Oozy_Substance wrote:. . . simply "it is possible, the Soviets have hidden all the Jews the Germans sent to their territory, . . .

I will make a post on this point today or tomorrow. Based on Soviet wartime practices and documentation.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Can we have another one on the Korherr Report?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jul 20, 2017 3:30 pm

Ok, I am stuck in the assembly and set-up of my new mega-printer - I need 2-3 strong people to help lift it onto its stand (the monster weighs over 300lbs) before I can continue - so I have some time to discuss this claim. Let's look at the context for the absurd denier fantasy that "it is possible, the Soviets have hidden all the Jews the Germans sent to their territory." I'll rely on a recent book I read which describes how the Soviets managed refugees during 1941 and 1942 in their southern territory.

Some time ago I made this post on what kind of evidence a wartime resettlement of Jews in territory controlled by Germany (in this case Poland) should have left behind.

Add to this special issues with the wild idea that the Germans somehow transported or shoved millions of Jews across the fronts into Soviet-held territory - the logistics of such an operation AND the evidence we should have for it from Red Army, state agency, local government, or other Soviet archives.

Of course, large of numbers of Jews did flee east in advance of Germany into the Soviet Union. And, in fact, we have evidence about this, as we do for the very different Nisko operation which I linked to, and this evidence shows how the Soviets dealt with such population movements. Not to put too fine a point on it, we do not, however, have evidence for the Soviets responding to a resettlement operation or millions of Jews entering the USSR after the initial German onslaughts, during the height of the Final Solution, when Jews "disappeared" en masse from German territory and must be accounted for.

As Barbarossa unfolded, Jews fled, for example, into the Caucasus from Ukraine and the Crimea but also for as far away as Moscow, because German operations came to the region later. By fall 1941, over 200,000 people had taken refuge in the Caucasus; there were 6,627 children from orphanages among them. It is likely, based on statistical samples and testimonies, that 3/4 of these people were Jews. The demographic composition of these refugees was skewed, with high %'s of women, young children, and people over 60.

Refugees arriving in the region underwent registration - but many slipped past the registration process. Local authorities provided newcomers with food; lodging was found with local families as well as in state-owned buildings. At first, towns and rural communities were able to find work for the refugees. Later arrivals - late fall 1941 - were not so lucky, as it became progressively more difficult to find them employment. Refugees were assigned where to be, but many complained or simply went where they wanted (we know about this from documentation left behind by the Resettlement Department of the Executive Committee of Krasnodarskii).

Authorities were concerned that among the refugees might be enemy agents: a letter ("Directive letter of the Committee of the VKP(b) of Krasnodarskii krai on the work with the evacuees" from September 1941) complained about this danger ("Fascists dispatch inhabitants of the occupied areas . . . to the Red Army's rear. . . . It is necessary to check all the suspects thoroughly"). In early October 1941 the NKVD branch responded to this concern by ordering a blanket security check for all refugees coming to the region.

Another concern - on top of security and labor - was friction between newcomers and locals; authorities took steps to reduce these problems.

Also in fall 1941, the Soviet state authorities took measures to prevent the "permanent" settlement of the refugees in the communities they'd fled to. Registration of newcomers in these communities was forbidden and local officials were instructed to move those without work to places where important military or industrial concerns needed their labor. Eventually the military authorities, not local officials, were given responsibility for issuance of residency permits to newcomers. These measures were successful: a Soviet report found that of 226,000 newcomers to Krasnodarskii krai, by January 1942 only 51,353 remained, the rest dispatched to the interior.

By 1942 new issues affecting the Caucasus and evacuees arose; these included the fate of people in besieged Leningrad and other areas of the then-stabilized front, including the Crimea and Rostov. The state authorities undertook purposeful evacuations from endangered areas to the Caucasus, seen as a safer region at the time. In these evacuations were many Jews - but unlike the earlier 1941 influx, this time the evacuations were planned and organized. Even so, employment remained an issue in the targeted areas (many in Stavropol'skii krai). About 113,000 newcomers - the % of Jews is not known but likely less than half - came to the Caucasus in this organized flight.

The point to this is that evidence for these 300,000-400,000 people evacuating to the region exists. We can use it to estimate the % of Jews; chart out employment; understand how people were accommodated; speak to Soviet policies regarding refugees; and understand where people went subsequently to their initial flight. This is the sort of documentation that would exist for any migration of millions of Jews into the Soviet Union - and it would exist on a far larger scale given the scope of what deniers making these claims are implying. Simple observation: no such evidence exists.

Thus deniers promoting this chimera ignore, on the one hand, all the evidence that exists for where Jews were deported to and what happened to them there, and, on the other hand, fixate on wild speculation that is entirely without substantiation or foundation.

source: Feferman, The Holocaust in the Crimea and the North Caucasus (2016) pp 81-90
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- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Can we have another one on the Korherr Report?

Postby Balsamo » Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:00 pm

Oozy_Substance wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:The other worthwhile angle to pursue is the deportations, if the interest is in numbers sent to Treblinka. Arad's book on the Einsatz Reinhard camps has tables in the back on this, HEART has a summary here, and the Wikipedia time line can be found here. There are some disagreements among these summaries on detail but not on rough number. Different locales have documentation, which matches well with what camp inmates later wrote or said; just Warsaw, with robust documentation for the expulsion of between 280,000 and 300,000+ between 22 July and 21 Septemberr, solves ~40% of your 1942 problem. Częstochowa, Kielce, Radom, Piotrków, and other ghettos had 5-figure deportations during this time. The number of daily arrivals could reach as high as 15,000. Treblinka was in no way suited to retain these numbers of deportees - e.g., in just the first week of transports, somewhere around 50,000 Warsaw Jews were brought to the little camp.

Eric Hunt begged revisionists to help him find Warsaw Jews sent somewhere other than Treblinka during 1942. No one replied to his web-appeal. I could have helped him find about 11,580 - that's the number (not included in the totals above) removed from the ghetto via the Dulag to work-camps. Another several 1000 were able to escape to the Aryan side of Warsaw (and are thus not included in the totals above).


Thanks.
These links will be useful to me.

I kinda try to build a strategy where you can refute H-Denialism using only, or mostly, the Korherr Report and Hofle Telegram because they display an immposibility, a mass deportation of 1 to 2 million of Jews to the "Russian East" by the end of 1942.
Still the deniers are giving me a hard time :oops: "Maybe it's impossible but it doesn't mean the alternative is killing" or simply "it is possible, the Soviets have hidden all the Jews the Germans sent to their territory, and the Jews changed their names." :lol:

By the way I read somewhere the number of killings described in the Korherr Report stands on 2,454,000. Can you tell me how you can get to this specific number? I tried to play with the numbers (1,274,166, 633,300 ..) but didn't get exactly to 2,454,000.


Serirously, you should not even bother.
Deniers approach to the KR is beyond comprehension. They feel smart to ask where are the bodies, but don't even realize how stupid it is not to be able to find those million Jews, ignoring the resources that would have needed such a massive resettlement program, the inherent stupidity of such an evacuation at a time when the situation on the eastern front was far from obvious, etc.
So the idea that the Nazis would have sent millions of Manpower to the Soviet in the middle of an uncertain total war is beyond stupidity to a point i would have stopped to discuss.

Again, the Korherr report is not about who and how many has been killed, so this issue is quite irrelevant in the context of this sole report.

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Re: Can we have another one on the Korherr Report?

Postby Balsamo » Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:30 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:From a post in another thread on Theresienstadt:
Adler estimates that

- 141,000 people were sent to and spent time in Theresienstadt prior to the end phase (over 150,000 counting end phase)
- mortality in the camp reached 33,500 (astonishing for a "showcase" and supposed "model" Jewish community! . . . especially when we consider the next two conclusions . . . )
- 88,000 people were "sent out of the camp" to a number of other places (Minsk/Maly Trostinets, Birkenau, Treblinka, Lublin ghettos, Riga)
- of the 88,000 sent elsewhere about 3,500 survived and over 84,000 were murdered

Here's a link to a post on the deportations from Theresienstadt in 1942: viewtopic.php?f=39&t=27891&start=120#p583735
ç

It continued in 1943, so not counted in the KR.
During the last week (between the 20 and the 30 of )January 1943, 10.000 Jews were sent from Theresienstadt to Auschwitz, in 5 transports.

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Re: Can we have another one on the Korherr Report?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:41 pm

Balsamo wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:From a post in another thread on Theresienstadt:
Adler estimates that

- 141,000 people were sent to and spent time in Theresienstadt prior to the end phase (over 150,000 counting end phase)
- mortality in the camp reached 33,500 (astonishing for a "showcase" and supposed "model" Jewish community! . . . especially when we consider the next two conclusions . . . )
- 88,000 people were "sent out of the camp" to a number of other places (Minsk/Maly Trostinets, Birkenau, Treblinka, Lublin ghettos, Riga)
- of the 88,000 sent elsewhere about 3,500 survived and over 84,000 were murdered

Here's a link to a post on the deportations from Theresienstadt in 1942: viewtopic.php?f=39&t=27891&start=120#p583735
ç

It continued in 1943, so not counted in the KR.
During the last week (between the 20 and the 30 of )January 1943, 10.000 Jews were sent from Theresienstadt to Auschwitz, in 5 transports.

sorry for not being clear, yes, I was just extending the story on Th. but also I linked to 1942 info
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Can we have another one on the Korherr Report?

Postby Oozy_Substance » Sun Jul 23, 2017 11:33 am

Balsamo wrote:
Again, the Korherr report is not about who and how many has been killed, so this issue is quite irrelevant in the context of this sole report.


Yes, I know. But some figures there with no doubt describe killing, even if Korherr himself wasn't aware of that (and I believe he did.)

The most obvious killing figures are the 1,274.166 "evacuations" who were "sifted through the camps in General Government" and the 145,301 who were sifted through "camps in the Warthegau" (Chelmno).

We also have the 633 300 figure of Jews being evacuated from the Russian East again to the Russian East, so adding this all up will get you 2,052,767, which is still about 450,000 below 2,454,000. So I wonder which figure in this report is also with no doubt refers to killing?

A source for the 2,454,000 figure can be seen here

Authentic German documents confirm the slaughter of Jews in the millions. The famous "Korherr Report,"(named after Richard Korherr, chief statistician for the SS) puts the number of Jewish losses at more than 2,454,000 by the end of 1942 alone. The war in Europe would not end until May, 1945.


This figure also appears in more sources.

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Re: Can we have another one on the Korherr Report?

Postby Balsamo » Sun Jul 23, 2017 4:25 pm

Oozy_Substance wrote:
Balsamo wrote:
Again, the Korherr report is not about who and how many has been killed, so this issue is quite irrelevant in the context of this sole report.


Yes, I know. But some figures there with no doubt describe killing, even if Korherr himself wasn't aware of that (and I believe he did.)

The most obvious killing figures are the 1,274.166 "evacuations" who were "sifted through the camps in General Government" and the 145,301 who were sifted through "camps in the Warthegau" (Chelmno).

We also have the 633 300 figure of Jews being evacuated from the Russian East again to the Russian East, so adding this all up will get you 2,052,767, which is still about 450,000 below 2,454,000. So I wonder which figure in this report is also with no doubt refers to killing?

A source for the 2,454,000 figure can be seen here

Authentic German documents confirm the slaughter of Jews in the millions. The famous "Korherr Report,"(named after Richard Korherr, chief statistician for the SS) puts the number of Jewish losses at more than 2,454,000 by the end of 1942 alone. The war in Europe would not end until May, 1945.


This figure also appears in more sources.


From what i have read of the link you posted, it is not the only "approximation" of facts.
Again, the last quote is wrong. The document BY ITSELF does not confirm the slaughter. It confirms murders that we know from other documents and facts.
Hadn't we this documents only, our basis to conclude the murder would have been quite thin. But that is not the case.

As for the number, it must be a typo copy/pasted through the internet. Or maybe it is possible to reach this number by playing with the data.

If we add all the numbers of people presumably killed (the whole chapter V on Evacuation), the point V.6 as well as the Jews who died in KZ (chapter VII), those evacuated in 1943 ( chapter X under evacuated from European country in the first quarter of 43), then withdraw those still counted at Theresienstadt, you get the number of 2.534.058.

But then, again, we have seen that all of them cannot be considered as being killed by the end of 1942. But we can assume that given that they all have to be included in the "decrease", they were not to reappear anywhere within the German Reich and the occupied territories or even Europe.

Another hint is Korherr wording when speaking about the reasons of the decrease of the Jewish population, using the term "Evacuation in the eastern territories" instead of "Evacuation to whatever places". In the German version, it says:
"Evakueirung in den (...)Ostgebieten die hier also Abgarb gerechnet werden"

Another part that clearly shows the "criminal nature" of the evacuation is when Korherr mentions Theresienstadt. He does not seem to be surprise by the fact that 87.193 Jews have been evacuated there, while only 49.392 are to be counted there in the beginning of 1943.

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Re: Can we have another one on the Korherr Report?

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Sun Jul 23, 2017 6:00 pm

Roberto wrote a good article about KR at HC. I'm on mobile now so won't bother posting a link but you can find by searching.

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Re: Can we have another one on the Korherr Report?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Jul 23, 2017 6:20 pm


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Re: Can we have another one on the Korherr Report?

Postby Oozy_Substance » Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:42 am

Balsamo wrote:But then, again, we have seen that all of them cannot be considered as being killed by the end of 1942.


Why is that? Can you repeat the reason for that?

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Re: Can we have another one on the Korherr Report?

Postby Balsamo » Mon Jul 24, 2017 2:06 pm

Well, take those Jews "evacuated" from Baden to France. A few will manage to escape, most will be interned by the French authorities and later be among the deportees to Auschwitz.
Among those Western European Jews, some were selected to work, and cannot therefore be considered as dead by the end of the year.

Of course, as i said in my former post, in fine, the number of survivors in 1945 was really small. IIRC the surviving rate was about 5%..

From France, the Jews from the first 6 convoys were registered in the camp. And among the 11 first convoys, only two were submitted to a selection.

Interestingly, it had no effect on the survival rates in 1945, they were just not gassed upon arrival, so there is no way to know if they were still alive by the end of 1942.


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