"Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Holocaust denial and related subjects.
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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby iwh » Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:12 pm

Sergey_Romanov wrote:This passage, if there's no more context, lacks nuance, such as Auschwitz being both a KL and a VL.


Sorry...I missed out the next sentences...

Auschwitz possaidait egalement un camp de travail proche du camp d'extermination d'Auschwitz-Birkenau. Les camps affectes a la mise en oeuvre de la Solution Final etaient obnubiles par la conjugaison de trois elements: une efficacite maximum, une discretion la plus hermetique possible et effacement des traces meutres.


My translation

Auschwitz also possessed a labour camp near to the extermination camp at Auschwitz Birkenau. The camps concerned with the implementation of the Final Solution were obsessed with 3 factors in particular: maximum efficiency, the tightest security possible and the elimination of all traces of the murders.

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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:50 pm

AB was not solely an extermination camp.

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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby iwh » Tue Jun 06, 2017 9:13 pm

Sergey_Romanov wrote:AB was not solely an extermination camp.


Agreed. Auschwitz served many functions. Deniers don't seem to be able to understand that fact.

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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby Jeff_36 » Wed Jun 07, 2017 2:57 am

iwh wrote:
Sergey_Romanov wrote:AB was not solely an extermination camp.


Agreed. Auschwitz served many functions. Deniers don't seem to be able to understand that fact.


I automatically screen out anything written by numbskulls who are unable to differentiate between Auschwitz I, II, and III. This includes prattling about the hospital in Auschwitz I and the {!#%@} stupid swimming pool.

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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby iwh » Wed Jun 07, 2017 6:53 am

....that and the fact that the Nazis weren't exactly dishing out tickets to all and sundry for a front row viewing of the gassing procedure!

When former prisoners stated they did not see gas chambers or crematoria it was because they were no where near them!

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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Jun 07, 2017 11:47 am

iwh wrote:....that and the fact that the Nazis weren't exactly dishing out tickets to all and sundry for a front row viewing of the gassing procedure!

When former prisoners stated they did not see gas chambers or crematoria it was because they were no where near them!



You know, this is my standard argument when some denier bashes a witness over the gas chambers or the camps. It's not like the SS gave out guided tours or handed out technical specs to the gas chambers.

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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby iwh » Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:13 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
iwh wrote:....that and the fact that the Nazis weren't exactly dishing out tickets to all and sundry for a front row viewing of the gassing procedure!

When former prisoners stated they did not see gas chambers or crematoria it was because they were no where near them!



You know, this is my standard argument when some denier bashes a witness over the gas chambers or the camps. It's not like the SS gave out guided tours or handed out technical specs to the gas chambers.


Same applies to numbers. When eyewitnesses get numbers and measurements wrong, deniers scream to high heaven...they are all liars.

As far as I am aware, no member of the Sonderkomando had a tape measure to hand or a pen and paper to count each victim as they walked/stumbled or were pushed into the gas chambers.

Deniers must have apoplectic fits when doing the "how many sweeties do you think are in the jar" game...
:lol: :lol:

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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Thu Jun 08, 2017 6:51 pm

Not a watch to measure the cremation times.

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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jun 08, 2017 6:55 pm

and the activity taking place under extreme conditions, along with some witnesses being better at time, counts, etc . . . what we have is more or less what you'd expect, knowing people and the conditions . . .
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby Aaron Richards » Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:35 am

Oozy_Substance wrote:Hi,
I did not post here for quite a while, but I got into a small online debate with some deniers a short while ago and one of them asked me the following question, and I quote :

Do you know why all reported camps that were later claimed to function as death camps were in soviet territory and under soviet control at the time this truth was discovered?

Was there a single death camp discovered by the allied forces? Why not?

As we all know that the soviets were quite keen on propaganda, altering historical facts etc. had most probably committed horrible crimes and deadly population control themselves.. isn't it reasonably possible, that they simply lied?

This is what bothers me the most about holocaust.


It's not the first time I hear that the death camps were located only in Soviet-liberated territories while the Allies-liberated territories only had concentration camps, implying the Soviets have lied and displayed concentration or transit camps as death camps.

I also know this picture, which takes a denier-picture and providing a feedback to it, but I am not sure it satisfies me.

Do you have any feedback to this issue?

One point I like to raise about this issue is that it is actually wrong. The allies liberated the Natzweiler-Struthof camp in France, where a gas chamber was operational and dozens of inmates were gassed to death for the human skeleton project.
Yet this is not the same industrial-scale of killing that took place in Auschwitz, Treblinka, etc

Edit : Oh, and of course, I forgot the most important part. The vast majority of Jews in Europe were located on Eastern Europe, especially in Poland. Therefore it is only logical that the death camps would be established there. Also the collaboration of the locals was more possible in Eastern Europe, where antisemitism was more common.
But I am not sure this answer would satisfy deniers.


This is how I have so far replied to the death camp meme brought up by deniers. By talking like an annoying, petulant know-it-all, and believe me it really upsets them:


Umm...what is a death camp? Do you know what a death camp is, as in, have any kind of official definition? I sure don't. Because when I ask around, the definition varies from person to person. The only official classification I know are concentration camps and extermination camps. In the former, people were mostly put to work rather than killed but those that died (and these camps still had a considerable mortality rate), did so through labor attrition, disease, starvation and summary execution according to the whims of the Lagerpersonal. In the latter, only a skeleton crew operated the camp while almost everyone who entered it was put to death, immediately upon arrival. Whether or not a camp contained homicidal gas chambers is not part of any definition. For instance, there are concentration camps that had homicidal gas chambers which were used (Mauthausen, Natzweiler-Struthof) and extermination camps that did not have gas chambers (Jasenovac, Janowska, Maly Trostenets). The only exception to this was Auschwitz-Birkenau which was a dual purpose labor/extermination camp with the selection being done right at the train ramp.

Therefore, kindly stick to either concentration camps or extermination camps. And the reason why pretty much all extermination camps were located in Eastern Europe is because most European Jews were also here, rather than Central or Western Europe, whose higher urban density would also make it harder for the Geheime Reichssache to remain Geheim.
"...we had the duty towards our Volk (the German people) to kill this Volk (the Jewish people) that wanted to kill us." - Himmler in his 1943 Posen speech reminding any future holocaust denier how absurd their beliefs really are.
I compile rebuttals to popular holocaust denier canards here: http://imgur.com/a/725A7

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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby NathanC » Sun Jul 02, 2017 4:20 am

For the actual Policies of the Polish and Soviet governments regarding death camps in General and Auschwitz in particular, see below

http://lekcja.auschwitz.org/en_22_muzeum/

The Stalinist Period

It was given the task to design a concept of an exhibition that would correspond to the current policy of the government. The decision was a consequence of progressing Stalinisation, which influenced nearly all the fields of life and subjected all institutions in Poland to strict control of the communist party. With the cold war intensifying, party authorities also began to use the Museum as a weapon in the fight against “the Anglo-American imperialism”.

Anti-war demonstrations were organised on the premises of the Museum to condemn Western imperialists and their alleged crimes, and summons were made to unite in the camp of peace, led by the Soviet Union and its leader—Joseph Stalin. The Museum itself was to set a warning against the crimes that Western imperialists, presented as heirs of Nazi Germany, were supposedly capable of.

Now the exhibition also included blocks 15, 17, 18, 19, and 21. Documents, numerous quotations, photographs, works of art, charts and graphs, and boards were used to portray the history of Auschwitz: conditions of inmate existence, slave labour, robbing people of their property, hunger, extermination, and the resistance movement. It also showed the mass extermination of the Jews, yet not as an exceptional phenomenon but as one of the components of destruction of various groups of inmates: Poles, Czechs, the French, Roma and Sinti, and Soviet prisoners of war. Although plenty of space was devoted to this content, it was actually only the background for the ideological message very strongly emphasised in the exhibitions in blocks 4 (“Murder of Millions”), 15 (“Sources of Genocide”), and 21 (“The Fight for Peace”).

The Jewish room that opened in Block 4 in 1947 was now liquidated, and the exhibition changed so as to prove that Jews, Poles, Roma and Sinti, and other incarcerated nationalities suffered the same fate. Moreover, it suggested that “American imperialists” were the successors of the Nazi criminals, and the concentration camps in the Third Reich were not a place of suffering but of fight and victory of the international, mostly communist, resistance.



The OP is correct, but not in the way that they intended. As we've mentioned, the USSR did lie about the extermination camps. They downplayed the fact that these camps were specifically intended to kill Jews, and generally downplayed the suffering of all inmates as a whole, preferring instead to depict these camps as places of communist resistance against capitalist fascists.

It's also relevant that the article talks about the fact that other than as propaganda against the West, the USSR had little use for Auschwitz besides. A Completely far cry from the OP's implication that they used the Camps to cover up their own crimes

Other than instrumental treatment of the Museum for the purpose of ideological fight, communist authorities showed no major interest in the operation of the institution in the Stalinist period. In the first half of the 1950s the management only received limited funds that could only provide for the maintenance of the blocks containing the exhibition, yet were too low to allow preservation of the remaining sites. In result, the condition of many of the barracks and the main gate of former Birkenau camp deteriorated, and the roof of the so-called Sauna (camp baths) caved in just after one of the visitor groups left.


Finally, worth mentioning was the government edict issued when the Memorial was founded

ACT
of 2 July 1947 on the commemoration of the martyrdom of the Polish Nation and other Nations in Auschwitz.

Art. 1. The premises of the former Nazi concentration camp in Oświęcim, together with all the architecture and infrastructure are to be preserved for ever as the Memorial of Martyrdom of the Polish Nation and other Nations.


Notice the bolded part: Polish Nation and other Nations, and not Jews. Whatever fakery the Soviet authorities may or may not have done, it was not done for Jews or to promote a narrative of Jewish suffering to help benefit Zionism or whatever. Their actual, recorded agenda rules out any such motivations.

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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Sat Jul 08, 2017 12:46 pm


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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby Oozy_Substance » Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:13 pm

Sergey_Romanov wrote:Added a new item: http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... tsandcamps


Amazing !
Thanks.

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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby BRoI » Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:49 am

Oozy_Substance wrote:
Sergey_Romanov wrote:Added a new item: http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... tsandcamps


Amazing !
Thanks.

Oh for sure, Sergey's theories are terwiffically irrefutable:

Image
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- Solomon Surowitz, Assistant Prosecutor at the 1947 Buchenwald trial.

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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Jul 26, 2017 12:55 pm

BRoI wrote:
Oozy_Substance wrote:
Sergey_Romanov wrote:Added a new item: http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... tsandcamps


Amazing !
Thanks.

Oh for sure, Sergey's theories are terwiffically irrefutable:

Image



I sense bitterness from your end, Rabbit. Perhaps you should just let it go.

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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:13 pm

The butthurt from the hard-hitting and conclusive refutation continues.

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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby BRoI » Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:21 pm

You're senses are off, Yoda, I'm just trolling Romanov and anyone else who buys into his claim to have proved that the photo was doctored by Lester Markel or his staff.

I made the image for elsewhere, but as my posts have been known to disappear from there I thought I'd post it here as well.
"... these witnesses would swear to anything if it gets the Germans killed."
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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:29 pm

BRoI wrote:You're senses are off, Yoda, I'm just trolling Romanov and anyone else who buys into his claim to have proved that the photo was doctored by Lester Markel or his staff.

I made the image for elsewhere, but as my posts have been known to disappear from there I thought I'd post it here as well.


I honestly don't give a damn, Rabbit. Whether or not someone doctored the picture or didn't is irrelevant in the scheme of things.

As for CODOH, I joined and some of my posts randomly disappeared as well.

Of course, my "persona" there is completely different than what it is here.

:lol:

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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:36 pm

Note how the Rabbit "argues" by exclamation. Unable to actually address the specific points he simply claims he won. Should rename himself into The Black Knight of Inle.

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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby BRoI » Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:50 pm

Sergey_Romanov wrote:Note how the Rabbit "argues" by exclamation. Unable to actually address the specific points he simply claims he won. Should rename himself into The Black Knight of Inle.


Wishing the world saw things through your reality-inverting specs again, Romanov! It's actually you who consistently claims to have won, and that you have proved that the Sunday NYT [read: Lester Markel] dun did. I just keep on with the original research into the photo; made huge progress recently, might tell you about it one day.
"... these witnesses would swear to anything if it gets the Germans killed."
- Solomon Surowitz, Assistant Prosecutor at the 1947 Buchenwald trial.

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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:54 pm

BRoI wrote:
Sergey_Romanov wrote:Note how the Rabbit "argues" by exclamation. Unable to actually address the specific points he simply claims he won. Should rename himself into The Black Knight of Inle.


Wishing the world saw things through your reality-inverting specs again, Romanov! It's actually you who consistently claims to have won, and that you have proved that the Sunday NYT [read: Lester Markel] dun did. I just keep on with the original research into the photo; made huge progress recently, might tell you about it one day.


You can always start another thread, Rabbit. Did your research uncover any torture involved with the person who took the picture?

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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby BRoI » Wed Jul 26, 2017 2:35 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:You can always start another thread, Rabbit. Did your research uncover any torture involved with the person who took the picture?

No, but another researcher revealed some years ago that the photo was almost certainly taken by the celebrity female photographer Lee Miller and not by the usually accredited Private Harry Miller.
"... these witnesses would swear to anything if it gets the Germans killed."
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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Jul 26, 2017 2:43 pm

BRoI wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:You can always start another thread, Rabbit. Did your research uncover any torture involved with the person who took the picture?

No, but another researcher revealed some years ago that the photo was almost certainly taken by the celebrity female photographer Lee Miller and not by the usually accredited Private Harry Miller.


Very well, then. Start a thread on it and show us your evidence. No need to keep it to yourself.

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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:08 pm

First there was the Krege report. Then the Fish report. The Rabbit report next?

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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:13 pm

depends on your definition of "was"
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby BRoI » Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:32 pm

Sergey_Romanov wrote:First there was the Krege report. Then the Fish report. The Rabbit report next?

In the meantime you can explain why the Signal Corps doctored their serial number off one of the versions of the photo, expertly covering a knothole in the process:

Image

Look that craftmanship! It appears that they lengthened the post somehow.

Both images taken from:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Buchenwald_Slave_Laborers_Liberation.jpg
"... these witnesses would swear to anything if it gets the Germans killed."
- Solomon Surowitz, Assistant Prosecutor at the 1947 Buchenwald trial.

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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:35 pm

BRoI wrote:
Sergey_Romanov wrote:First there was the Krege report. Then the Fish report. The Rabbit report next?

In the meantime you can explain why the Signal Corps doctored their serial number off one of the versions of the photo, expertly covering a knothole in the process:

Image

Look that craftmanship! It appears that they lengthened the post somehow.

Both images taken from:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Buchenwald_Slave_Laborers_Liberation.jpg



Um, I still see a knothole....

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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby BRoI » Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:40 pm

Think [don't drink] before posting, Yoda.
"... these witnesses would swear to anything if it gets the Germans killed."
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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:44 pm

BRoI wrote:Think [don't drink] before posting, Yoda.



:lol:
Look at it again, Wabbit. I can't manipulate pictures on my phone so I can't point it out.

One picture is just lighter than the other.

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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:50 pm

After your Mermelstein lie one would expect you to photoshop and post such things just for kicks, so without posting the verifiable links your claims don't have to even begin to be examined.

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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:50 pm

BRoI wrote:
Sergey_Romanov wrote:First there was the Krege report. Then the Fish report. The Rabbit report next?

In the meantime you can explain why the Signal Corps doctored their serial number off one of the versions of the photo, expertly covering a knothole in the process:

Image

Look that craftmanship! It appears that they lengthened the post somehow.

Both images taken from:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Buchenwald_Slave_Laborers_Liberation.jpg


Wabbit, look at both posts. Looking at the picture, now look at the left side of the wooden post. Look at the darker picture, move up from the ground and you can see it. Now do the same with the lighter picture, both pictures have the knothole.

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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby BRoI » Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:52 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote::lol:
Look at it again, Wabbit. I can't manipulate pictures on my phone so I can't point it out.

One picture is just lighter than the other.

This knothole:
Image
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- Solomon Surowitz, Assistant Prosecutor at the 1947 Buchenwald trial.

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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby BRoI » Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:54 pm

Sergey_Romanov wrote:After your Mermelstein lie one would expect you to photoshop and post such things just for kicks, so without posting the verifiable links your claims don't have to even begin to be examined.

lol, still going with the he lied defence, such tawdriness.

And I posted the link, you bozo.
"... these witnesses would swear to anything if it gets the Germans killed."
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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Wed Jul 26, 2017 6:01 pm

You obviously lied about your MM argument, as I have shown.

You posted a link to wikimedia where anyone can upload anything. (Yes, I did use it for the hi-res pic, that's not the same.)

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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Jul 26, 2017 6:01 pm

No, I see what you are pointing out.

My apologies, Rabbit. Mea culpa, I was looking further up on the wooden post. What you are looking at is the base of the post. The spot right above the white "203467-s."

I'll leave my comments to show what a dumbass I am....

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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Wed Jul 26, 2017 6:07 pm

Anyway let's assume that the photo description by the Rabbit is correct. Why people would want to remove a number is obvious. That they did it so crudely shows their mad skillz that are rather inconvenient for Rabbit's conspiracy theory.

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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Jul 26, 2017 6:24 pm


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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby BRoI » Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:10 pm

Sergey_Romanov wrote:You obviously lied about your MM argument, as I have shown.

With your quote-stack? *yawn* Describe in your own words how I "lied". Good luck!


You posted a link to wikimedia where anyone can upload anything. (Yes, I did use it for the hi-res pic, that's not the same.)

Right... now Romanov has progressed to doubting the authenticity of the print he used in a HC blog post and claimed it was proof that the NYT dun did it. He previously claimed this version was "straight from 'the horse's mouth' (the Army)"!

Romanov's buffoonery-posing-as-competence routine is priceless. :lol:

I told him back then where this version originates from. How boring that he needs telling all over again.

- The high-res image is not from "the Army", but was downloaded from the American Forces Network's presently defunct website. An archived copy of the webpage shows that they took it from a CD produced by the NARA:

http://web.archive.org/web/20110516111940/http://www.dodmedia.osd.mil/DVIC_View/Still_Details.cfm?SDAN=HDSN9902764&JPGPath=/Assets/Still/1999/DoD/HD-SN-99-02764.JPG
https://www.archives.gov/publications/multimedia/index.html
Last edited by BRoI on Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby BRoI » Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:17 pm



The image was originally posted by myself on furtherglory's blog, Yeager half-inched it from there after hermod of codoh pointed out that Toncman was missing.
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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby BRoI » Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:36 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:No, I see what you are pointing out.

My apologies, Rabbit. Mea culpa, I was looking further up on the wooden post. What you are looking at is the base of the post. The spot right above the white "203467-s."

I'll leave my comments to show what a dumbass I am....

lol, np. Looking for fine details of photos on a phone isn't a great idea. I made the same mistake last year, Romanov then claimed for months that I had "lied".
"... these witnesses would swear to anything if it gets the Germans killed."
- Solomon Surowitz, Assistant Prosecutor at the 1947 Buchenwald trial.


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