"Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

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"Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby Oozy_Substance » Wed May 31, 2017 7:13 am

Hi,
I did not post here for quite a while, but I got into a small online debate with some deniers a short while ago and one of them asked me the following question, and I quote :

Do you know why all reported camps that were later claimed to function as death camps were in soviet territory and under soviet control at the time this truth was discovered?

Was there a single death camp discovered by the allied forces? Why not?

As we all know that the soviets were quite keen on propaganda, altering historical facts etc. had most probably committed horrible crimes and deadly population control themselves.. isn't it reasonably possible, that they simply lied?

This is what bothers me the most about holocaust.


It's not the first time I hear that the death camps were located only in Soviet-liberated territories while the Allies-liberated territories only had concentration camps, implying the Soviets have lied and displayed concentration or transit camps as death camps.

I also know this picture, which takes a denier-picture and providing a feedback to it, but I am not sure it satisfies me.

Do you have any feedback to this issue?

One point I like to raise about this issue is that it is actually wrong. The allies liberated the Natzweiler-Struthof camp in France, where a gas chamber was operational and dozens of inmates were gassed to death for the human skeleton project.
Yet this is not the same industrial-scale of killing that took place in Auschwitz, Treblinka, etc

Edit : Oh, and of course, I forgot the most important part. The vast majority of Jews in Europe were located on Eastern Europe, especially in Poland. Therefore it is only logical that the death camps would be established there. Also the collaboration of the locals was more possible in Eastern Europe, where antisemitism was more common.
But I am not sure this answer would satisfy deniers.

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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby Denying-History » Wed May 31, 2017 11:24 am

By basic terms this is true. On specific grounds it's not, considering all "death camps" that were not labor centers were destroyed before they were technically found.
« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed May 31, 2017 11:43 am

The Soviets liberated Auschwitz and Majdanek because of where they were located; the other "death" camps were out of commission but also had been on territory liberated by the Soviets. Simple.

Which leads to the next question. You also have to consider not just the size of the Jewish population in the East but also Nazi views of the East and their goals for conquest and rule in the East, vs how the Nazis viewed western Europe, to understand the location of the camps in question.

Also, the Polish authorities (e.g., the Polish-Soviet Commission which investigated Majdanek, the judicial inquiries into Treblnka) are not synonymous with Soviet authorities, although I doubt your denier would want to sort that through and understand it.

Does you denier have cases of positive evidence for large-scale fabrication by Soviet operators of evidence for mass murder at these installations? Like who did, when, how, which evidence?

And then there are the points that we've made over and over (Nathan C, Jeff_36, and me for example in this forum, Roberto Muehlenkamp elsewhere) on the absurdity of the Soviets tarting up false propaganda for widespread mass murder of the Jews.

Last, the evidence found by the Soviets is not the only evidence for what happened at these camps. Other evidence supports evidence found by the Soviets - did they supposedly tart that up, too?
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Wed May 31, 2017 12:41 pm

That extermination camps were concentrated on "non-Western" territories has been the point made by historians since the 1960s and the reason is obvious.

So yes, no extermination camps were found by the Western allies for that obvious reason. Whether they found death camps depends on the definition.

Oh, and both the names and the function were known during the war, which makes the meme doubly nonsensical.

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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed May 31, 2017 1:24 pm

Oozy_Substance wrote:
One point I like to raise about this issue is that it is actually wrong. The allies liberated the Natzweiler-Struthof camp in France, where a gas chamber was operational and dozens of inmates were gassed to death for the human skeleton project.
Yet this is not the same industrial-scale of killing that took place in Auschwitz, Treblinka, etc


Welcome back, Oozy.

Strictly speaking Natzweiler-Struthof was not a death camp. Don't equate the presence of a gas chamber with an extermination camp, other concentration camps had them, for example Dachau, but this did not mean they were "death camps" per se. No large scale gassings took place in actual concentration camps.

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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed May 31, 2017 1:30 pm

Oozy_Substance wrote:Edit : Oh, and of course, I forgot the most important part. The vast majority of Jews in Europe were located on Eastern Europe, especially in Poland. Therefore it is only logical that the death camps would be established there. Also the collaboration of the locals was more possible in Eastern Europe, where antisemitism was more common.
But I am not sure this answer would satisfy deniers.


You also need to consider the amount of control the Germans had over the Jews in a given area. Most of the Jews died where Germans occupied the area completely, i.e., Poland, Hungary, the Baltics and the occupied areas of the USSR.

Don't be a stranger!!!!!

I know it won't happen but see if your deniers will come here.

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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby Xcalibur » Wed May 31, 2017 3:44 pm

To put the answer into terms even Hargis can understand: Death camps are where death camps were.

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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed May 31, 2017 3:45 pm

LOL

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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Wed May 31, 2017 8:49 pm

I don't use the term "death camp" due to its ambiguity. Was Belsen a death camp? Well, look at the results. Was it an extermination camp? No.

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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed May 31, 2017 8:59 pm

I think that's a useful distinction. Thanks.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby Oozy_Substance » Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:44 am

Silly question - and I have a hunch I may have already asked it a few months ago but I don't truly remember - which camps are "officially" labeled as death or extermination camps?

As far as I remember, there are 7 of those :

1) Auschwitz
2) Treblinka
3) Sobibor
4) Belzec
5) Majdanek
6) Chelmno
7) Maly Trostenets

And there is also an 8th one - that would be Jasenovac , even though it's a bit exceptional by being built and operated by the Ustaše and not by the Nazis.

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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby Denying-History » Thu Jun 01, 2017 12:29 pm

Which camps are exactly extermination camps is sometimes hard to characterize as Majdanek is sometimes not considered an extermination camp. It's pretty much a fuzzy area where 8 extermination centers existed and you labeled them all.
« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby iwh » Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:53 pm

Denying-History wrote:Which camps are exactly extermination camps is sometimes hard to characterize as Majdanek is sometimes not considered an extermination camp. It's pretty much a fuzzy area where 8 extermination centers existed and you labeled them all.


I agree. Even Auschwitz served several uses.

The difference has to be between those camps that served as extermination camps and nothing else, as in Chelmno, Sobibor, Belzec, Treblinka and Maly Trostenets and those camps where mass exterminations took place as well as other functions such as Auschwitz and Majdanek .

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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Jun 01, 2017 3:08 pm

So, multipurpose camps:
Majdanek
Auschwitz-Birkenau

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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby iwh » Thu Jun 01, 2017 3:16 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:So, multipurpose camps:
Majdanek
Auschwitz-Birkenau


Yep...looks like it.

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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby Im_Not_Creative_Enough » Thu Jun 01, 2017 3:59 pm

The underline massage of the OP denier is "why would you believe anything told by the Svoiets, they are all liars".
The best way to combat this, I always thought, is to throw the Holodomor at his face. While Holocaust studies are based on sources from both Soviets and the Western Allies (not about the death camps, but other subjects as well. And yes, this is another case of deniers dumbing down the holocaust to "GAS-SIX-PLAN"), all we know of the Holodomor is based, well, JUST on Soviet sources, as it was done ONLY by the Soviets, ONLY to Soviets victims and ONLY on Soviet soil, and for some reason deniers aren't bothered at all by this. Hmmmm...
The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far.

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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Jun 01, 2017 4:20 pm

Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:The underline massage of the OP denier is "why would you believe anything told by the Svoiets, they are all liars".
The best way to combat this, I always thought, is to throw the Holodomor at his face. While Holocaust studies are based on sources from both Soviets and the Western Allies (not about the death camps, but other subjects as well. And yes, this is another case of deniers dumbing down the holocaust to "GAS-SIX-PLAN"), all we know of the Holodomor is based, well, JUST on Soviet sources, as it was done ONLY by the Soviets, ONLY to Soviets victims and ONLY on Soviet soil, and for some reason deniers aren't bothered at all by this. Hmmmm...



Deniers then claim that the Holdomor was committed by Jewish Bolshevists. Oh, the next thing they say is that the Jewish Bolshevists massacred 60 million white people in Russia. Or 100 million.

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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby Denying-History » Thu Jun 01, 2017 7:41 pm

iwh wrote:
Denying-History wrote:Which camps are exactly extermination camps is sometimes hard to characterize as Majdanek is sometimes not considered an extermination camp. It's pretty much a fuzzy area where 8 extermination centers existed and you labeled them all.


I agree. Even Auschwitz served several uses.

The difference has to be between those camps that served as extermination camps and nothing else, as in Chelmno, Sobibor, Belzec, Treblinka and Maly Trostenets and those camps where mass exterminations took place as well as other functions such as Auschwitz and Majdanek .

True but Majdanek really only served a temporary purpose as Hoess stated. As well 30% of its victims died on a single day.

As for Maly trostenets I don't have enough information to say if it was created as a station for murder. All I know is that shooting began one day. When is hard to say. The only study on the camp (meaning directly involving the camp alone) is in French, and I am not personally willing to translate it for myself.
« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jun 01, 2017 7:43 pm

There is evidence from non-Soviet sources that corroborates evidence found by the Soviets regarding the extermination camps and the open-air shootings. E.g., the Wetzler-Vrba report in 1944 for Auschwitz, reports from Krzepicki and other Treblinka escapees in 1942, and much, much more as we've outlined in threads on specific topics. Holodomor or no Holodomor, deniers have to have better explanations than they've given for the range of evidence we know about.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jun 01, 2017 7:50 pm

Denying-History wrote:
iwh wrote:
Denying-History wrote:Which camps are exactly extermination camps is sometimes hard to characterize as Majdanek is sometimes not considered an extermination camp. It's pretty much a fuzzy area where 8 extermination centers existed and you labeled them all.


I agree. Even Auschwitz served several uses.

The difference has to be between those camps that served as extermination camps and nothing else, as in Chelmno, Sobibor, Belzec, Treblinka and Maly Trostenets and those camps where mass exterminations took place as well as other functions such as Auschwitz and Majdanek .

True but Majdanek really only served a temporary purpose as Hoess stated. As well 30% of its victims died on a single day.

Agreed, 30% of the Jewish victims.

And well fewer than 20,000 inmates were killed in the gas chambers. Majdanek had several purposes, among them extermination - especially in fall-winter 1942-1943, late spring 1943, and fall 1943 - but extermination wasn't nearly so important there as it was at Auschwitz-Birkenau. Thinking of Majdanek as being like Auschwitz can be misleading IMO. Yes, it was mixed purpose, yes it had gas chambers, yes Jews were exterminated there - but the scale was not like Auschwitz - 60,000 Jews perished at Majdanek vs 965,000 at Auschwitz.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby Im_Not_Creative_Enough » Thu Jun 01, 2017 7:59 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:The underline massage of the OP denier is "why would you believe anything told by the Svoiets, they are all liars".
The best way to combat this, I always thought, is to throw the Holodomor at his face. While Holocaust studies are based on sources from both Soviets and the Western Allies (not about the death camps, but other subjects as well. And yes, this is another case of deniers dumbing down the holocaust to "GAS-SIX-PLAN"), all we know of the Holodomor is based, well, JUST on Soviet sources, as it was done ONLY by the Soviets, ONLY to Soviets victims and ONLY on Soviet soil, and for some reason deniers aren't bothered at all by this. Hmmmm...



Deniers then claim that the Holdomor was committed by Jewish Bolshevists. Oh, the next thing they say is that the Jewish Bolshevists massacred 60 million white people in Russia. Or 100 million.


Achtung! Remembah ze 30000 gzaiilion dead white people! Litteraly anoduh Olodomor!
The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far.

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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:01 pm

It's a favorite of Jim Rizoli, denier filmmaker extraordinaire.

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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby Denying-History » Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:23 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
iwh wrote:
Denying-History wrote:Which camps are exactly extermination camps is sometimes hard to characterize as Majdanek is sometimes not considered an extermination camp. It's pretty much a fuzzy area where 8 extermination centers existed and you labeled them all.


I agree. Even Auschwitz served several uses.

The difference has to be between those camps that served as extermination camps and nothing else, as in Chelmno, Sobibor, Belzec, Treblinka and Maly Trostenets and those camps where mass exterminations took place as well as other functions such as Auschwitz and Majdanek .

True but Majdanek really only served a temporary purpose as Hoess stated. As well 30% of its victims died on a single day.

Agreed, 30% of the Jewish victims.
Yep, that is the genocidal aspect of Majdanek after all. Not the non-Jewish deaths.

Statistical Mechanic wrote:And well fewer than 20,000 inmates were killed in the gas chambers. Majdanek had several purposes, among them extermination - especially in fall-winter 1942-1943, late spring 1943, and fall 1943 - but extermination wasn't nearly so important there as it was at Auschwitz-Birkenau. Thinking of Majdanek as being like Auschwitz can be misleading IMO. Yes, it was mixed purpose, yes it had gas chambers, yes Jews were exterminated there - but the scale was not like Auschwitz - 60,000 Jews perished at Majdanek vs 965,000 at Auschwitz.
Meh, you could have just shortened that like Marszalek to "September 1942 to September 1943" for the gassing program. Regardless as a concept, we agree here. Not to mention the selections were fairly different.
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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:26 pm

Denying-History wrote:Meh, you could have just shortened that like Marszalek to "September 1942 to September 1943" for the gassing program. Regardless as a concept, we agree here. Not to mention the selections were fairly different.

to be strictly accurate, there were peaks and valleys in that Sept 42 - Sep 43 period. :)
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Thu Jun 01, 2017 10:33 pm

Majdanek is hardly comparable to Auschwitz, IMHO.

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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jun 01, 2017 10:45 pm

That's the point which D-H and I are trying to make to Oozy, that putting these camps in the same "category" is misleading.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby Denying-History » Fri Jun 02, 2017 12:21 am

Majdanek is hardly comparable, even if we accept the higher figures of the USHMM. Which as SM pointed out we have already said. Although the subject matter around it is hard to say with the question being about "death camps" or more specifically "extermination centers" which makes it hard to characterize. Is this only pure extermination camps or is it inclusive of multi-purpose camps? Where also does Maly Trostinets and Jasenovac fit in?
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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Fri Jun 02, 2017 8:54 am

When most victims die of so-called "natural causes" and you have to add the victims of a one off shooting action (not limited to Majdanek), one has to think long and hard about whether or not Majdanek belongs on a general extermination camp list (that it belongs on a death camp list is much less controversial).

IMHO it may appear there "with an asterisk", so to say. The reasons not to fully exclude it may be intent, as testified to by some people in the know, like Hoess.

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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby Oozy_Substance » Fri Jun 02, 2017 1:38 pm

Denying-History wrote:As well 30% of its victims died on a single day.


Aktion Erntefest, right?
I wonder what is the Deniers' stand on this one.
In terms of victims, it's larger than Babi-Yar, and of course, sure is faster.
Perhaps it's the most deadly instance, in terms of killings within a short time-span, of all Holocaust massacres?

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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Jun 02, 2017 3:16 pm

In total Erntefest exceeded Babi Yar but not at Majdanek where 18,000 Jews were shot. Graf & Mattogno deny Erntefest - I forget all their reasoning but mainly they argue that the killings made no economic sense. What makes absolutely no sense is their argument, especially how they treat the evidence.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby iwh » Fri Jun 02, 2017 4:54 pm

Denying-History wrote:
iwh wrote:
Denying-History wrote:Which camps are exactly extermination camps is sometimes hard to characterize as Majdanek is sometimes not considered an extermination camp. It's pretty much a fuzzy area where 8 extermination centers existed and you labeled them all.


I agree. Even Auschwitz served several uses.

The difference has to be between those camps that served as extermination camps and nothing else, as in Chelmno, Sobibor, Belzec, Treblinka and Maly Trostenets and those camps where mass exterminations took place as well as other functions such as Auschwitz and Majdanek .

True but Majdanek really only served a temporary purpose as Hoess stated. As well 30% of its victims died on a single day.

As for Maly trostenets I don't have enough information to say if it was created as a station for murder. All I know is that shooting began one day. When is hard to say. The only study on the camp (meaning directly involving the camp alone) is in French, and I am not personally willing to translate it for myself.


Do you have a source? I read and write French so could help out....

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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Jun 02, 2017 5:36 pm

iwh wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
iwh wrote:
Denying-History wrote:Which camps are exactly extermination camps is sometimes hard to characterize as Majdanek is sometimes not considered an extermination camp. It's pretty much a fuzzy area where 8 extermination centers existed and you labeled them all.


I agree. Even Auschwitz served several uses.

The difference has to be between those camps that served as extermination camps and nothing else, as in Chelmno, Sobibor, Belzec, Treblinka and Maly Trostenets and those camps where mass exterminations took place as well as other functions such as Auschwitz and Majdanek .

True but Majdanek really only served a temporary purpose as Hoess stated. As well 30% of its victims died on a single day.

As for Maly trostenets I don't have enough information to say if it was created as a station for murder. All I know is that shooting began one day. When is hard to say. The only study on the camp (meaning directly involving the camp alone) is in French, and I am not personally willing to translate it for myself.


Do you have a source? I read and write French so could help out....


This is what deathcamps.org says about it:

http://www.deathcamps.org/occupation/maly%20trostinec.html

The primary method of killing was by shooting, along with the use of gas vans.

Wikipedia says that the camp started out as a Red Army POW camp:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maly_Trostenets_extermination_camp

As does HEART:
http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/nazioccupation/malytrost.html

There is a book but it's out of stock on Amazon:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Maly-Trostenets-Extermination-Russell-Jesse/dp/5514218279

On that note I'm back to work.

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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Jun 02, 2017 7:03 pm

Also - in keeping with the theme (evidence other than Soviets "finding" death camps) - Kube (general commissar for White Ruthenia) to Lohse (Reich commissar, Ostland), 31 July 1942 (PS-3428) where Kube writes of the extermination of 10,000 Jews at Minsk on 28-29 July 1942, 6500 of the victims "Russian" Jews, the rest from Vienna, Brno, Bremen and Berlin, sent "at the Führer's order."
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Jun 02, 2017 7:12 pm

I ran across some stuff on the use of gas vans, I think there was some info on the use of those vans at MT, I'll try and track that down.

We've sorta changed course on the original topic but I'm sure no one will mind.

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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Jun 02, 2017 7:39 pm

To my mind, the best refutation of the denier's nonsense argument cited in the OP is such contemporaneous and/or independent documentation and other evidence. The gas vans at Maly Trostinets were called, after the Russian phrase for them, "soul destroyers."
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby Jeff_36 » Sat Jun 03, 2017 2:10 am

I regards to the deier's arguments: technically, the first actor that reported the existence of these death camps to the allies was the Polish Home Army, a staunchly anti-communist organization. The fact that the AK and the Soviets agreed on the occurrence of this genocide says it all really. Corroboration is key here. There is also reports and accounts from Polish locals, hardly fans of Communism. This is found extensively in the Belzec area in particular.

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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby Denying-History » Sat Jun 03, 2017 5:23 am

iwh wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
iwh wrote:
Denying-History wrote:Which camps are exactly extermination camps is sometimes hard to characterize as Majdanek is sometimes not considered an extermination camp. It's pretty much a fuzzy area where 8 extermination centers existed and you labeled them all.


I agree. Even Auschwitz served several uses.

The difference has to be between those camps that served as extermination camps and nothing else, as in Chelmno, Sobibor, Belzec, Treblinka and Maly Trostenets and those camps where mass exterminations took place as well as other functions such as Auschwitz and Majdanek .

True but Majdanek really only served a temporary purpose as Hoess stated. As well 30% of its victims died on a single day.

As for Maly trostenets I don't have enough information to say if it was created as a station for murder. All I know is that shooting began one day. When is hard to say. The only study on the camp (meaning directly involving the camp alone) is in French, and I am not personally willing to translate it for myself.


Do you have a source? I read and write French so could help out....

It's "Un camp de la mort nazi oublié en Biélorussie: Maly Trostenets"
« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
- James Mace

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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Jun 03, 2017 1:49 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:I regards to the deier's arguments: technically, the first actor that reported the existence of these death camps to the allies was the Polish Home Army, a staunchly anti-communist organization. The fact that the AK and the Soviets agreed on the occurrence of this genocide says it all really. Corroboration is key here. There is also reports and accounts from Polish locals, hardly fans of Communism. This is found extensively in the Belzec area in particular.

For example, a small and focused sample mostly reports about Treblinka from the Home Army, the Delegatura, and other Polish underground sources (also some other sources mentioned - all from during the war)
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby iwh » Mon Jun 05, 2017 2:50 pm

Denying-History wrote:It's "Un camp de la mort nazi oublié en Biélorussie: Maly Trostenets"


I have just purchased the Kindle edition and see that the author, Chauvet has already considered the confusion regarding the different systems put in place by the Nazis.

D’autre part, trop souvent encore, il règne chez le grand public une certaine confusion entre les camps d’extermination (Vernichtungslager), véritables usines de mort, et les camps de concentration (Konzentrationslager) placés sous la gestion de l’Obergruppenführer Oswald Pohl, qui étaient eux des camps de travaux forcés (Dachau, Buchenwald, Sachsenhausen, Bergen-Belsen, Ravensbrück etc.). La philosophie des deux types de camps n’était pas la même, bien que de très nombreux prisonniers perdirent la vie dans les camps de concentration, au demeurant souvent, mais pas systématiquement, pourvus de une ou plusieurs chambres à gaz et de fours crématoires. Mais on ne pratiquait pas le gazage en masse dans ces lieux.


My translation:

On the other hand, all too often, there is a great deal of confusion amongst the general public between extermination camps (Vernichtungslager), veritable factories of death, and concentration camps ( Konzentrationslager) the latter under the administration of Obergruppenfuhrer Oswald Pohl, which were themselves forced work camps (Dachau, Buchenwald, Sachsenhausen, Bergen-Belsen, Ravensbruck etc.). The philosophy of the 2 camp systems was not the same, although large numbers of prisoners lost their lives in concentration camps, indeed on many occasions, they did not die in a systematic fashion, with the aid of one or several gas chambers and crematory ovens. Mass gassings did not occur in these places.

Location 214, Kindle edition.

More to come....

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Re: "Death camps were found only by the Soviets"

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:42 pm

This passage, if there's no more context, lacks nuance, such as Auschwitz being both a KL and a VL.


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