Mattogno on Gilbert

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iwh
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Mattogno on Gilbert

Postby iwh » Wed May 10, 2017 7:11 am

In his book "Auschwitz: The Case for Sanity found here:

http://holocausthandbooks.com/dl/22-atcfs.pdf

Mattogno tries to debunk Piper's work on the numbers of Jews sent to Auschwitz by attempting to debunk two of Piper's main sources: Danuta Czech and Martin Gilbert. In a few cases Piper uses Gilbert's book: "Atlas of the Holocaust" to account for arrival dates and numbers of Jews transported to Auschwitz. Mattogno accuses Gilbert of making this data up and that:

Martin Gilbert’s well-known Atlas (1995, pp. 100, 105), (is) a work completely devoid of any references to sources where fact and fiction are indistinguishable and which is therefore of no scientific value.


This appears to be a serious accusation to me about ANY historian so I decided to do some checking. Fortunately for me. I have the French version of Gilbert's book: "Atlas de la Shoah." (1992). In the French version there are 10 large pages crammed with references (p 246 – 256). I looked through these references to find that many of them refer to the research carried out by Yad Vashem in the form of Pinkas Hakehillot, an encyclopedia of data concerning the life and destruction of several hundreds of Jewish communities throughout Romania, Germany, Hungary and...Poland.

This is not the only source he uses…other sources include works by Tatiana Berenstein which give statistical tables of gheotoisation, deportation and destruction of Jewish communities in eastern Galicia and the Lublin area between 1939 and 1944, the 16 volume Encyclopaedia Judaica, and D. Danrowska’s work which includes “16 statistical tables relating to the ghettoization and deportations in the city of Lodz and other towns and villages of the Warthegau”

These are just a few of the well over 200 hundred sources Gilbert uses in his “Atlas of the Holocaust”.

...so when Mattogno claims that Gilbert's work is "devoid of and references to sources" he is not exactly telling us the truth.

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Re: Mattogno on Gilbert

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Wed May 10, 2017 8:48 pm

Typical Mattogno, what a liar.

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Re: Mattogno on Gilbert

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed May 10, 2017 10:14 pm

iwh, I have an English copy of the atlas somewhere, I used to use it as a mouse pad :) Looked for it this afternoon and will look again later to see if I can turn it up and check references.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Mattogno on Gilbert

Postby iwh » Wed May 10, 2017 10:39 pm

The issue here is the accusation that Gilbert never used source materials in his Atlas when it is quite obvious that he did.

Mattogno, by telling us that Gilbert uses no sources, states that Gilbert is not to be trusted with the knock on effect being that Piper's work on the Auschwitz numbers is at fault because he uses data provided by Gilbert. ( a bit long winded but it is late and I am knackered)

Quite simply, Mattogno is a liar.

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Re: Mattogno on Gilbert

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Wed May 10, 2017 10:48 pm

I suppose M could try to weasel out of that one by claiming that by "references to sources" he meant sourcing every individual transport, which Gilbert indeed did not do, instead giving a general sources list at the end, indicating which source is relevant to which map in general. That said, Mattogno certainly gave an appearance of claiming that Gilbert did not list any sources. Moreover, Gilbert giving these references for many individual maps does count as giving references to sources, even if not in the way Mattogno wishes. Mattogno could have simply claimed that the Atlas is not very useful scholarship-wise due to its sourcing method, and he would have a point there, but he chose to lie...

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Re: Mattogno on Gilbert

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Wed May 10, 2017 11:39 pm

Another point from the same pages:

2) Poland. Number of deportees: 300,000 (pp. 183-186, 199). Table
23 contains the transports from Polish ghettos for the period of May to
August 1942 as listed by Piper, which he claims have been completely
gassed. These transports have been completely invented (see Mattogno
2001b, pp. 42f.; Engl.: 2004h). There is not the slightest trace of them
in the existing documentation. In her Auschwitz Kalendarium (1989),
Danuta Czech is absolutely unable to furnish us with even the slightest
documentary hint concerning the reality of these transports

---

What Mattogno does not mention, in order to create an appearance of Czech imagining these transports, is that she actually cites a source for them - Nathan Szternfinkiel's book on the murder of the Jews of Sosnowiec. It is true that Szternfinkiel does not cite sources for the 1942 transports, and whether he is correct in his claim e.g. about the May 1942 transport is another issue, however Czech did not imagine those transports.

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Re: Mattogno on Gilbert

Postby Jeff_36 » Fri May 12, 2017 5:10 am

Could Mattogno simply be ignorant of these references? It can be speculated that he never even bothered to crack Gilbert's atlas and was simply blathering on.

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Re: Mattogno on Gilbert

Postby iwh » Fri May 12, 2017 11:20 am

Jeff_36 wrote:Could Mattogno simply be ignorant of these references? It can be speculated that he never even bothered to crack Gilbert's atlas and was simply blathering on.


I would hazard a guess that Mattogno knew they were there...and that's what makes his dishonesty so much worse. As Sergey quite correctly stated, he could have criticised the content and use of Gilbert's sources; instead he chose to deny them completely, thus making the casual reader of his book believe that Gilbert was plucking numbers out of thin air.

:x

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Re: Mattogno on Gilbert

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri May 12, 2017 11:23 am

I seem to have really & truly lost my copy! Grrrrr, but iwh's and Sergey's last comments - on Gilbert's method of citing, which I recall to have been en masse and not by map entry - is frustrating but not equivalent to having no sources for his maps.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927


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