The simplest way to affirm the holocaust

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Aaron Richards
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The simplest way to affirm the holocaust

Postby Aaron Richards » Mon May 01, 2017 12:21 am

Since holocaust deniers mostly agree on a very low death toll attributed to typhus and disease (often using the Arolsen figure and claiming this is every Jew who ever died) the numerical disparity is around 5.8 million in number.

Whether or not gas chambers existed wouldn't change a more basic question: Did 6 million Jews go missing after the war? Yes or no? Historians say, gas chambers or no gas chambers, the fact remains that after the war there were millions of Jews less in the world compared to before, backed by census. Deniers HAVE TO say this isn't true (and therefore have to assume a different position concerning census) or otherwise their position would be "we dont believe in gas chambers but yeah 6 million jews were killed I guess", and we all know that isnt their position, so let's talk census.

Denier position options:

1) That many Jews never existed in Europe to begin with (i.e. the pre-war census data is hoaxed, the post 1949 census data is accurate)

I know of no denier who claims this, and it makes little sense to me, unless Jews were the kind of masterminds that had been planning from the birth of the zionist movement onward to get Israel gifted to them via gaining world sympathy by creating an artificial culling of their people to occur in the mid 1940s expressed merely in census and therefore started artificially inflating the Jewish census data from whenever they came up with the plan upto the 1940s, and then resumed counting accurately 1949 onward and therefore showed the world millions had disappeared.

It is absurd to me because it would require said Jewish masterminds to predict a real calamity happening to their people in the forseeable future (let's say the deniers' 270k arolsen figure) to then have a event on whose basis they could then let this artificially inflated census culling happen. Because if said calamity hadnt occurred, then they wouldnt be able to do it, and their inflated numbers would sooner or later become a bubble that would burst during peacetime by someone who realized what was going on.

Again, I know of no denier who claims this. Next option for deniers:

2) That many Jews were never killed, i.e. the post-1949 census data is hoaxed.

This is the position of nearly all deniers I have interacted with. Which means they NEED to make an additional claim. Either:

2.a) The millions of pre-war Jews are all still alive but not showing up in any census data anymore.

Which is absurd, considering how many countries around the world have census data listing Jews in their country, and for there to exist some kind of global authority that has kept giving them secret orders to artificially keep the Jewish numbers down by X% for the past few decades is laughable.

or

2.b.) The millions of pre-war Jews are all still alive, just changed their religion and therefore disappeared from the census.

If the deniers go for 2.b, they further need to choose:

2.b.a) and continued to live in Europe 33-45.

Which would mean several million non-jews would appear in the first post-war census of European countries WHOSE NAMES HADN'T BEEN RECORDED EARLIER.

In any case, such a mass conversion event numbering in the millions would have been impossible to be completely kept a secret. People would have recognized their neighbors, friends etc, suddenly all adopting new identities and reported this. Also, when the Nazis implemented to concept of Jews having to wear stars of david, they were prepared for this option.

or

2.b.b) left Europe 33-45.

Which would mean several million non-jews would appear in the immigration records of other countries. But even non-jewish immigration numbers arent this high during 33-45 for USA, Canada, Israel etc. whose archives are accessible.


What can we conclude?

Each position deniers take regarding the census does not stand up to scrutiny.
Last edited by Aaron Richards on Mon May 01, 2017 12:41 am, edited 5 times in total.
"...we had the duty towards our Volk (the German people) to kill this Volk (the Jewish people) that wanted to kill us." - Himmler in his 1943 Posen speech reminding any future holocaust denier how absurd their beliefs really are.
I compile rebuttals to popular holocaust denier canards here: http://imgur.com/a/725A7

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Re: The simplest way to affirm the holocaust

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon May 01, 2017 12:27 am

Aaron Richards wrote:1) That many Jews never existed in Europe to begin with . . . Again, I know of no denier who claims this.

I've read a number of posts to this effect on debate boards.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: The simplest way to affirm the holocaust

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon May 01, 2017 12:46 am

Aaron Richards wrote:
1) That many Jews never existed in Europe to begin with . . . Again, I know of no denier who claims this.


'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'



http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6912


I've seen this around. It's a favorite of Jim Rizoli, dim denier he is. He stupidly spouts over and over again that most GERMAN and AUSTRIAN Jews left before the war, never mind that most of the victims were Polish, Soviet and Hungarian Jews.

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Re: The simplest way to affirm the holocaust

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon May 01, 2017 12:56 am

Aaron Richards wrote:Since holocaust deniers mostly agree on a very low death toll attributed to typhus and disease (often using the Arolsen figure and claiming this is every Jew who ever died) the numerical disparity is around 5.8 million in number.

Whether or not gas chambers existed wouldn't change a more basic question: Did 6 million Jews go missing after the war?


That's a bit tricky, Aaron. Most of us generally reject the mystical "six million." Jeff_36 thinks that the number is below five million, I think around 5.5 million, Nick Terry accepts 5-6 million and so on. I've seen demographic data as high as 5.9 million and there is a historian (name escapes me) that says 6.2 million but I think that is just too high.

That's something I hammer deniers on, they insist on the sacred "six million" far more than anyone who actually studies this.

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Re: The simplest way to affirm the holocaust

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon May 01, 2017 12:56 am

On a local level, where the demographics are more contained and discussion can be more focused, back at Rodoh Trollo doubted pre-1941 Jewish population figures in the Baltic counties, as a way of minimizing the death toll based on # of survivors vs pre-invasion population. I am pretty sure that this "doubt" has come up at JREF and also here. Finding specific posts would be some work, which I'm too lazy for.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: The simplest way to affirm the holocaust

Postby Xcalibur » Mon May 01, 2017 1:00 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:Aaron Richards wrote:
1) That many Jews never existed in Europe to begin with . . . Again, I know of no denier who claims this.


'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'



http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6912


I've seen this around. It's a favorite of Jim Rizoli, dim denier he is. He stupidly spouts over and over again that most GERMAN and AUSTRIAN Jews left before the war, never mind that most of the victims were Polish, Soviet and Hungarian Jews.


So wait, he thinks the missing x-number million Jews emigrated from Germany & Austria?... I haven't read too much of his stuff, but one doesn't have to to get he's a monument to idiocy.

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Re: The simplest way to affirm the holocaust

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon May 01, 2017 1:18 am

Xcalibur wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:Aaron Richards wrote:
1) That many Jews never existed in Europe to begin with . . . Again, I know of no denier who claims this.


'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'



http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6912


I've seen this around. It's a favorite of Jim Rizoli, dim denier he is. He stupidly spouts over and over again that most GERMAN and AUSTRIAN Jews left before the war, never mind that most of the victims were Polish, Soviet and Hungarian Jews.


So wait, he thinks the missing x-number million Jews emigrated from Germany & Austria?... I haven't read too much of his stuff, but one doesn't have to to get he's a monument to idiocy.


Oh, yes. Jim likes to babble about six million murdered by bug spray and why would the efficient Germans send six million Jews to Poland to murder them, etc., etc.
He thinks the Einsatzgruppen went BEFORE the Wehrmacht, not after. He also thinks the US declared war on Germany.

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Re: The simplest way to affirm the holocaust

Postby Xcalibur » Mon May 01, 2017 1:33 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Xcalibur wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:Aaron Richards wrote:
1) That many Jews never existed in Europe to begin with . . . Again, I know of no denier who claims this.


'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'



http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6912


I've seen this around. It's a favorite of Jim Rizoli, dim denier he is. He stupidly spouts over and over again that most GERMAN and AUSTRIAN Jews left before the war, never mind that most of the victims were Polish, Soviet and Hungarian Jews.


So wait, he thinks the missing x-number million Jews emigrated from Germany & Austria?... I haven't read too much of his stuff, but one doesn't have to to get he's a monument to idiocy.


Oh, yes. Jim likes to babble about six million murdered by bug spray and why would the efficient Germans send six million Jews to Poland to murder them, etc., etc.
He thinks the Einsatzgruppen went BEFORE the Wehrmacht, not after. He also thinks the US declared war on Germany.


Okay, ignorant + whackaloon.

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Re: The simplest way to affirm the holocaust

Postby Jeff_36 » Mon May 01, 2017 2:25 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:He thinks the Einsatzgruppen went BEFORE the Wehrmacht


That's.... I mean.... That's just....Like...But....Wow.

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Re: The simplest way to affirm the holocaust

Postby iwh » Mon May 01, 2017 12:15 pm

Didn't Walter Sanning promote the "the Jews pissed off into the USSR and other places before the war" idea in his book?

I love the way that deniers promote the 2 million or so Soviet Jews were sent to the east and so avoided the Nazis...whilst forgetting about the 2.7 million that were left behind!

http://revblog.codoh.com/2010/05/well-where-are-they-then/

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Re: The simplest way to affirm the holocaust

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon May 01, 2017 12:23 pm

One nice thing about Stark's little book on Hungary is that he deals with numbers of Hungarian Jews in the USSR - but also temporarily living in DP camps, returning to present-day Hungarian territory, returning to parts of war-time Hungary given to neighboring countries - even Jews changing their names (a denier favorite) and then in the later '40s Jewish emigration to Israel, Canada, the US, and South America.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: The simplest way to affirm the holocaust

Postby Im_Not_Creative_Enough » Mon May 01, 2017 2:57 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Aaron Richards wrote:1) That many Jews never existed in Europe to begin with . . . Again, I know of no denier who claims this.

I've read a number of posts to this effect on debate boards.


IIRC Hargis is a very passionate endorsee of this claim.
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Re: The simplest way to affirm the holocaust

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon May 01, 2017 2:58 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:On a local level, where the demographics are more contained and discussion can be more focused, back at Rodoh Trollo doubted pre-1941 Jewish population figures in the Baltic counties, as a way of minimizing the death toll based on # of survivors vs pre-invasion population. I am pretty sure that this "doubt" has come up at JREF and also here. Finding specific posts would be some work, which I'm too lazy for.



I see this more often in the case of Poland. Deniers point out that the last Polish census was 1931 (I think) and that census stated 3 + million Jews lived in Poland. When I ask what proof exists on how many Polish Jews left between 1931-1939 I get hemming and hawing, plus wild guesses.

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Re: The simplest way to affirm the holocaust

Postby iwh » Mon May 01, 2017 8:14 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:On a local level, where the demographics are more contained and discussion can be more focused, back at Rodoh Trollo doubted pre-1941 Jewish population figures in the Baltic counties, as a way of minimizing the death toll based on # of survivors vs pre-invasion population. I am pretty sure that this "doubt" has come up at JREF and also here. Finding specific posts would be some work, which I'm too lazy for.



I see this more often in the case of Poland. Deniers point out that the last Polish census was 1931 (I think) and that census stated 3 + million Jews lived in Poland. When I ask what proof exists on how many Polish Jews left between 1931-1939 I get hemming and hawing, plus wild guesses.


Sanning misread documentation to point out that around 100,000 Jews left Poland every year from 1931 to 1939. The numbers were not for Poland but for the whole of Europe. Holocaust Controversies explains all.....

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Re: The simplest way to affirm the holocaust

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon May 01, 2017 8:31 pm

iwh wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:On a local level, where the demographics are more contained and discussion can be more focused, back at Rodoh Trollo doubted pre-1941 Jewish population figures in the Baltic counties, as a way of minimizing the death toll based on # of survivors vs pre-invasion population. I am pretty sure that this "doubt" has come up at JREF and also here. Finding specific posts would be some work, which I'm too lazy for.



I see this more often in the case of Poland. Deniers point out that the last Polish census was 1931 (I think) and that census stated 3 + million Jews lived in Poland. When I ask what proof exists on how many Polish Jews left between 1931-1939 I get hemming and hawing, plus wild guesses.


Sanning misread documentation to point out that around 100,000 Jews left Poland every year from 1931 to 1939. The numbers were not for Poland but for the whole of Europe. Holocaust Controversies explains all.....



I think I used them at one time, I also took some time once and looked up departures for Europe. Sadly, I don't think I saved it.

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Re: The simplest way to affirm the holocaust

Postby Denying-History » Wed May 03, 2017 3:32 am

Based on the statistics that were made within the shortest period of time of the holocaust happening the demographic losses are between 5,721,500 and 5,957,000.* Deniers cannot account for the vast majority of these people. These figures do not however represent everyone who was considered a Jew by the nazis, which can be considered evident by the Wannsee protocol. (Although I'm sure most of us already know this.)


*See the April 1956 Anglo-American Committiee of Inquiry and Jacob Lestchinsky's 1946 "balance sheet of extermination", from the American Jewish Congress. The statistics can also be found at the end of Nora Levin's "the holocaust".
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