Documentaries

Holocaust denial and related subjects.
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Balsamo
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Re: Documentaries

Postby Balsamo » Wed May 31, 2017 1:08 am

Interresting video indeed,

It's indeed disturbing to observe that the "american peace" or "pax americana" promoted in the video - if it had of course "reduce the number of casualties of war" - has broken every record of civilians dying during peacetime: It would be very interesting if the video would put in charts the human beings dying from hunger each year for example.
A child is dying from hunger every 6 seconds...while the the world wealth has never been that high, or so we are told... Adding those data would add an additional nice perspective...

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Re: Documentaries

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:21 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:I watched the documentary "Nazi Concentration Camps" on Netflix yesterday.
American occupation forces documented the various concentration camps as they liberated them, this movie is the result.
They talked about the following:
Hadamar (not a concentration camp)
Leipzig (camp near the town)
Penig (camp near the town)
Ohrdruff (Patton and Eisenhower documented as examining) One interesting thing documented is a grill system used to burn bodies. It's amazing how prevalent this system of burning was.
Breendonck in Belgium
Hanover
Nordhausen
Belsen
Dachau (gas chamber shown and demonstrated)
Mauthausen
Buchenwald

The images of corpses and starving prisoners still burn. Victims showed the results of torture. A US officer testified on camera about the existence of a gas chamber at Mauthausen. I know we've discussed this bit before.

There were obvious issues with this, camps were described as "death camps," a misconception understandable at the time.
I was reluctant to watch this, but, it was not bad. If nothing else it showed the conditions in the camps at the end of the war.



Night Will Fall also mentions the grill system to burn bodies.

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Re: Documentaries

Postby Denying-History » Wed Jun 21, 2017 7:49 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:I watched the documentary "Nazi Concentration Camps" on Netflix yesterday.
American occupation forces documented the various concentration camps as they liberated them, this movie is the result.
They talked about the following:
Hadamar (not a concentration camp)
Leipzig (camp near the town)
Penig (camp near the town)
Ohrdruff (Patton and Eisenhower documented as examining) One interesting thing documented is a grill system used to burn bodies. It's amazing how prevalent this system of burning was.
Breendonck in Belgium
Hanover
Nordhausen
Belsen
Dachau (gas chamber shown and demonstrated)
Mauthausen
Buchenwald

The images of corpses and starving prisoners still burn. Victims showed the results of torture. A US officer testified on camera about the existence of a gas chamber at Mauthausen. I know we've discussed this bit before.

There were obvious issues with this, camps were described as "death camps," a misconception understandable at the time.
I was reluctant to watch this, but, it was not bad. If nothing else it showed the conditions in the camps at the end of the war.



Night Will Fall also mentions the grill system to burn bodies.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8Mca34lwgM
« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
- James Mace

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Re: Documentaries

Postby Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Wed Jun 21, 2017 1:12 pm

Misplaced recordings of Holocaust survivors singing melodies and recounting their pasts have resurfaced at the University of Akron. The recordings were made by David Boder, a psychologist from Chicago, who visited former prisoners and recorded their songs on a newly rediscovered reel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3V83GdHYNA
According to experts and scholars, the 10 stages of every genocide are
Classification Symbolization Discrimination Dehumanization Organization Polarization Preparation Persecution Extermination
... and finally the 10th stage:
Denial
http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocide/t ... ocide.html

XYZ Contagion (‘Because the truth is contagious‘), an investigative/research political and historical website, deals also with the Srebrenica Genocide
https://xyzcontagion.wordpress.com/about/#English

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Re: Documentaries

Postby Gord » Thu Jul 13, 2017 4:26 am

I just found this video. Not a documentary exactly, just a quick examination of Witold Pilecki:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3qHnfxQmKk
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE

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Re: Documentaries

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Tue Jul 25, 2017 4:25 pm

I have just begun watching Un village français on DVD. It's a multi-part series based in a small village called Villeneuve and covers the period from June 1940 to the war's end in 1945. I had hoped to practice my French comprehension with it, but it is subtitled, and my eye refuses to resist the subtitles. Just as well, perhaps, as the French is very authentic, spoken rapidly and not enunciated distinctly, which further handicaps me in addition to the hearing aids I have to wear to be sure of understanding even what my wife is saying to me.

Anyway, the main characters are laid out in the part I just watched. One of them is a prosperous businessman, Monsieur Schwartz. Just as in America, that name tips the viewer off that he's probably Jewish and is going to have trouble. By the end of Episode 1, the Germans are requisitioning his spacious house for military use. Schwartz has a crew of Spaniards working for him, and the foreman of the group is a Communist organizer. The local French police and the French security service appear at the beginning, looking for the source of Communist propaganda, and finding it in Schwartz's mill. I suspect the Security guy is going to stay around and collaborate with the Nazis (the local policeman tells him that, given the occupation that is beginning, it is not worthwhile to hunt for Communists), and that some of Schwartz's friends and neighbors are likely to turn against him, so it's going to be tense. The first episode is mostly get-acquainted with the characters, amid incredible chaos. But it looks like it will be interesting.
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Re: Documentaries

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Jul 30, 2017 8:59 pm

I'm shifting this here:
http://m.zumvo.me/watch-film-unfinished-2010-4347

From Upton's thread, BBC documentary.

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Re: Documentaries

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Jul 30, 2017 10:50 pm

Someone just sent me this, it's some footage of the liberation of Dachau, there's no sound.
https://www.facebook.com/ShoahSocialArchive/videos/1760683297279940/

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Re: Documentaries

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Aug 11, 2017 4:57 pm


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Re: Documentaries

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:03 am

Much as my wife and I have not liked anything by Ken Burns, we've decided to watch his 18-hour Vietnam documentary on PBS. For some of us here (ahem, the old folks), that war touches us in different but intensely personal ways.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Documentaries

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:20 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Much as my wife and I have not liked anything by Ken Burns, we've decided to watch his 18-hour Vietnam documentary on PBS. For some of us here (ahem, the old folks), that war touches us in different but intensely personal ways.



I've got it set up on my DVR. I won't watch it until it's done, then I'll binge watch it.

I went through a period where I studied the Vietnam War to the exclusion of everything else. One of the best books on it is Vietnam: A History by Stanley Karnow, another is a A Bright Shining Lie by Neil Sheehan. The Karnow book is based on a PBS Documentary, I've never seen it.

I'll probably revisit the period when I get a chance but it will have to wait.

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Re: Documentaries

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:22 am

Part one was actually decent.

Of course, being active in the antiwar movement, I read books, magazines, pamphlets, reports - everything I could get my hands on. I read government position papers, US military publications, Vietnamese publications, peace studies material, GI produced brochures and stuff, religiously oriented material, teach-in stuff, and on and on. I knew or met people like Dave Dellinger (Fifth Avenue Vietnam Peace Parade and Chicago 7) and the Berrigans, David Horowitz (yes, he started out antiwar!), Michael Klare (I knew him very well), and then some really radical folks like Dave Blalock (VVAW) and David Fine (chilling memories of that dude). I cheered wildly when LBJ decided against running for president in '68, watched war footage on nightly news, threw things at the TV when Nixon and Kissinger spoke, commiserated with close friends who served and came home to rabble-rousers like me trying to stop the war :) I got my ass tossed in jail during Mayday '71 - and won a lawsuit against the government for violating my rights in arresting and holding me (I actually received real cash money!).

As an undergrad I studied Vietnamese history one year (reading David Marr, Joseph Buttinger, Paul Mus, and many other authors), focusing mostly on the long, rich history of Vietnamese anti colonialism. Still later I read just about every work of fiction on the war I could find - my favorites being Tom Suddick's A Few Good Men and Tim O'Brien's Going After Cacciato. I think I have these right, it was a long time ago.

Without giving anything away, I will say that Burns' approach to his audience is to allow his interview subjects to have their say (with people you haven't heard of, from many diverse pov's), so that very different voices and perspectives are presented; part one, which dealt with anti colonialism, was very focused on Ho Chi Minh and the Viet Minh, to the exclusion of deep anti colonial background and almost nothing on the sociology of the Vietnamese countryside, about which Paul Mus wrote so well. But the first part is worth watching and includes some stuff that is quite informative along with a lot of stuff that isn't commonly known or appreciated.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Documentaries

Postby Jeff_36 » Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:34 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Much as my wife and I have not liked anything by Ken Burns, we've decided to watch his 18-hour Vietnam documentary on PBS. For some of us here (ahem, the old folks), that war touches us in different but intensely personal ways.


I have been watching it and I really like what I see. Good Lord the footage of the Hanoi March was hard to watch.........

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Re: Documentaries

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:57 am

The material on the inside decision making in Hanoi and Washington is very good. The tapes of LBJ's phone calls show those calls to have been exactly as one imagined them. The Hanoi stuff, not so much, he's got material that we didn't know about in the '60s.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Documentaries

Postby Jeff_36 » Tue Sep 26, 2017 3:14 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Without giving anything away, I will say that Burns' approach to his audience is to allow his interview subjects to have their say (with people you haven't heard of, from many diverse pov's), so that very different voices and perspectives are presented; part one, which dealt with anti colonialism, was very focused on Ho Chi Minh and the Viet Minh, to the exclusion of deep anti colonial background and almost nothing on the sociology of the Vietnamese countryside, about which Paul Mus wrote so well. But the first part is worth watching and includes some stuff that is quite informative along with a lot of stuff that isn't commonly known or appreciated.


A few observations on parts 1-4

1. I was always aware that Ho was much more of a Nationalist than a Communist, but I was of the opinion that Giap was the same. Evidently Giap was much more of a doctrinaire Marxist than Ho - the dynamic between the two is strikingly similar to that of Castro and Guevara for those of you who have read heavily into the Cuban Revolution.

2. The discussion of the War between the French and the Viet Minh lacked detail, but I understood that brevity was needed. For example, the critical role of Jean de Lattre de Tassigny was never touched upon (even though he he was shown in archival footage several times). De Tassigny had been one of the finest Free French generals of the Second World War and as commander of the French troops in Indochina he absolutely dominated Giap's Viet Minh in multiple engagement, inflicting huge casualties. It was only after De Tassigny fell terminally ill and had to return to France that Giap started raking up major victories. That being said, the description/coverage of Dien Bien Phu was phenomenal.

3. I was always under the impression that Vo Nguyen Giap was pronounced "Vowh New-yen Jee-yaap" LOL, it's actually "Vaaowwww Nyinnn Zap". I felt like an absolute moron when I heard that and I am still kicking myself over it lol.

4. Part three discusses how Le Duan had basically marginalized Ho and Vo as early as 1963. This, IMO, vindicates my earlier argument on the limited roles of both in the ensuing war with the US.

5. I maintain that there is nothing morally wrong with the US acting in a limited way to prevent the mass shootings, collectivization of agriculture, and mass deportations that would have (and did) accompany North Vietnamese rule over the whole country. However everyone in their right mind should have known that sending in hundreds of thousands of troops was doomed to ignominious failure, the warning signs were there from the beginning.

6. McNamara is a case study in how analytics are not the answer to literally everything.

7. I hated it when that old VC dude with the jacked teeth bragged about hacking a man to death - he's a sick {!#%@} and I'm upset that he's lived this long, the VC were really no different from the SS in my opinion and this series shows it.

8. Morely Shafer was at some point not an ancient dude on 60 Minutes! Who would have thought!?!?!?!? Unbelievable!!!!!!

9. Speaking of which - you don't win hearts and minds by burning villages, I mean come on guys.........

I have yet to watch this past Sunday's episode on Tet - but I did record it. That was really the turning point of the war from a US PR perspective IIRC......

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Re: Documentaries

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Sep 26, 2017 3:45 am

Jeff_36 wrote:A few observations on parts 1-4 . . . 5. I maintain that there is nothing morally wrong with the US acting in a limited way to prevent the mass shootings, collectivization of agriculture, and mass deportations that would have (and did) accompany North Vietnamese rule over the whole country. However everyone in their right mind should have known that sending in hundreds of thousands of troops was doomed to ignominious failure, the warning signs were there from the beginning.

But not Pinochet, Trujillo, the Duvaliers, Stroessner, Diem, the Shah, Marcos, Suharto, the colonels in Greece, the House of Saud, Vorster or Botha in South Africa, Erdogan today . . . nary a peep about the dirty war conducted by the junta in Argentina with Kissinger's covert support for the murders . . . how odd? So many countries to set straight, so little time, a great shame.

And this doesn't really get at the problem: "everyone in their right mind should have known that sending in hundreds of thousands of troops was doomed to ignominious failure"; time and again, US misunderstanding and devaluing of Vietnamese nationalism and anti colonialism - "the US acting in a limited way" in the country, for example, having decided not to support the Vietnamese anti colonial movement after the war - drove the Vietnamese to harder and harder positions, and strengthened the hand of the hard liners in the Communist party and in the South (leaving aside the question of the legitimacy itself of the South). And set up what eventually came to feel like an inevitability.

And yet, one of my thoughts watching the documentary - I actually don't feel like debating this again - is sadness - sadness over the number of opportunities that were lost early on and the consequences of this - and how fundamentally, in the period after WWII, the US took a position that more or less ensured the litany of lost opportunities.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Documentaries

Postby Jeff_36 » Tue Sep 26, 2017 4:24 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:And yet, one of my thoughts watching the documentary - I actually don't feel like debating this again - is sadness - sadness over the number of opportunities that were lost early on and the consequences of this - and how fundamentally, in the period after WWII, the US took a position that more or less ensured the litany of lost opportunities.


On that I will concur 100%. They should never have saddled up with the French, and I think Ho should have been co-opted at the end of WWII. Doing so would have hopefully marginalized the likes of Le and Giap and produced a stable US ally. The fact that the US failed to respond to Ho's overtures irks me - I constantly wonder what could have been.


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