The fraud in the Broad report

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The fraud in the Broad report

Postby BRoI » Thu Apr 13, 2017 12:52 pm

For those not familiar with the Broad Report, or how its alleged author contested he'd written all of it when it was "rediscovered" in the 1960s, Hans of HC wrote a very detailed piece on it here:
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.co.uk/2011/10/how-reliable-and-authentic-is-broad.html


The Broad Report says the following:

The Black Wall stood against one of the stone walls in the yard of Block 11. For thousands of innocent people, patriots unwilling to betray their countries for material advantages, men who manged to escape the hell of Auschwitz only to be recaptured, for patriotic men and women from all German-occupied countries, this wall of black cork had become the last milestone on their road through life.

- The Broad Report, cf. Bernd Naumann, Jean Steinberg [trans.], Auschwitz: A Report on the Proceedings Against Rober Karl Ludwig Mulka and Others Before the Court at Frankfurt, NY: Praeger, 1966, p.167.


Broad's "black wall" [he uses that term several more times], or "wall of black cork", is obviously the famous cork covered wooden structure in the prison courtyard of Block 11 [my photo 16.01.12]:

Image

Funny thing is, there was no such cork wall there in early 1945 when the Soviets liberated Auschwitz:

Image
https://web.archive.org/web/20140808073008/http://collections.yadvashem.org/photosarchive/en-us/19700.html

Image

This footage from early 1945 corrobrates the claim that the photos above were taken in early-mid 1945:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=See_CXE2tDo

Perry Broad's cork wall does appear in this footage from January 1951:

Image
http://www.britishpathe.com/video/aftermath-of-atrocity/query/auschwitz
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bd43EWhWGIY

Does anyone have an explanation as to why this black cork wall is mentioned in the Broad's alleged 13th July 1945, report despite the fact it never existed when he left Auschwitz in January 1945, nor did it exist when the above photographs were taken in the early 1945?
"... these witnesses would swear to anything if it gets the Germans killed."
- Solomon Surowitz, Assistant Prosecutor at the 1947 Buchenwald trial.

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Re: The fraud in the Broad report

Postby BRoI » Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:40 pm

Image
"Execution by shooting at the death wall in the yard of block 11" by Władysław Siwek [c.1948-1951]

A particularly strong prisoner of the clean-up detail would bring in the first two victims, holding them by their arms and pressing their faces against the wall. "Proste!" ["Straight ahead!"] someone shouted in case they turned their heads to the side. Although these walking corpses, some of whom had spent months in a stinking basement not for for an animal to live in, could hardly stand up,"

- "Pery Broad", "The Broad Report", "13th July 1945"


It's obvious what the real author of the Broad Report was inspired by:

Image
"... these witnesses would swear to anything if it gets the Germans killed."
- Solomon Surowitz, Assistant Prosecutor at the 1947 Buchenwald trial.

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Re: The fraud in the Broad report

Postby BRoI » Thu Apr 13, 2017 2:22 pm

On 13 November 2008 the AB museum created a webpage that mentioned "The Death Wall" is a reconstruction.
http://auschwitz.org/en/visiting/permanent-exhibition/death-wall/

Derek Dalton wrote about his March 2007 visit to Auschwitz in his 2015 book Dark Tourism and Crime, and mentioned the guide told him that the original was removed in 1943.

Our tour moved along to the rhythm of its solemn procession and we entered the narrow courtyard between Block Ten and Block Eleven. At the end of this courtyard lay a removable wall with ends angled slightly towards the centre. It was made of rough-hewn logs and covered with a black tar. Many floral tributes adorned its base. Our tour guide informed us that some 20,000 prisoners were executed against this wall, and that its purpose was both to protect the brick wall behind it from bullet holes, and also to prevent bullets ricocheting and injuring the SS guards. She remarked, in a matter-of-fact aside, that the wall was a reconstruction, and that the Nazis had removed the original wall some time in 1943.

I was troubled by this fact. Like much of Auschwitz-Birkenau, the camp in its entirety is a mixture of original elements (e.g. red brick barracks) and restored objects (e.g. prison bunks in Birkenau). The so-called 'black wall' or 'death/ execution wall', whilst not fictive, is an inauthentic installation — a replica. It is not repaired and restored, but has been manufactured at some time in the recent past. One can understand that its presence at the museum helps the spectator imagine the murders that this space has been witness to. While, there is no denying that the wall is dramatic, I was left feeling uneasy about this need for artifice. It was not an exhibit like the suitcases, hair, shoes and other 'material evidence of crime' we had seen earlier in the tour. It was a simulacrum and it seemed paradoxically out of place despite resting in the place of the original wall. Walter Benjamin (1985: 215) writes that an object is `auratic' if it has a capacity to convey its historical authenticity. Its unique existence is based on its 'historical testimony'. It is imbued with the magic of having `been there' (ibid.). Perhaps this is why the death wall troubled me. It had not strictly speaking — 'been there' — and as a consequence it lacked the powerful aura of the genuine artefacts displayed in the barracks. Williams (2007: 33) cautions us against becoming too obsessed with the 'sticky question' of authenticity, arguing that: 'it is the story that is the object, insofar as it is not the item that is distinctive, but the associated history to which it is attached' (original emphasis). To the extent that the black/death wall formerly existed at the camp and — 'has a provenance definitely known to be of the event' (ibid.) — perhaps one should not problematise its presence there.

[pp.22-23]


Does anyone know which pre-January 1951 testimonies the reconstruction is based upon, obviously it shouldn't be Broad's report, as that was unknown to the AB museum until the 1960s.
"... these witnesses would swear to anything if it gets the Germans killed."
- Solomon Surowitz, Assistant Prosecutor at the 1947 Buchenwald trial.

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Re: The fraud in the Broad report

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:17 pm

Arthur Liebehenschel, the Auschwitz I Commandant after Hoess left in 1943, removed the wall and stopped the executions at that location.

The original wall was removed after Arthur Liebehenschel replaced Rudolf Höess as the camp commander in November, 1943 and ordered the executions at the wall to stop. So what is now displayed is a replica and not the original black wall - hence there are no bullet holes in it.


http://www.auschwitz2013.colindaylinks.com/auschwitz1page3.html

If you put that in somewhere I missed it and you have my apologies, Rabbit. If you didn't I'm surprised you didn't know this, I thumped this fact on Jim Rizoli's head a while back.

Oh, now I see it. The guide mentioned that it was removed on 1943.

Well, I'll let the post stand the way it is. If I get a chance later I'll look for some sources on this.

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Re: The fraud in the Broad report

Postby Denying-History » Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:24 pm

I thought that Broad entered Auschwitz in 1942... So he should have seen the black wall.
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Re: The fraud in the Broad report

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Apr 14, 2017 12:53 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:Arthur Liebehenschel, the Auschwitz I Commandant after Hoess left in 1943, removed the wall and stopped the executions at that location.

The original wall was removed after Arthur Liebehenschel replaced Rudolf Höess as the camp commander in November, 1943 and ordered the executions at the wall to stop. So what is now displayed is a replica and not the original black wall - hence there are no bullet holes in it.


http://www.auschwitz2013.colindaylinks.com/auschwitz1page3.html . . .

Citing Konieczny, Piper says that the death wall "was taken down in 1944." (Auschwitz 1940-1945, vol III, p 95). Piper describes the death wall as having been constructed from "wood (boards or railroad ties), insulating panels, earth, or tar paper." He cites testimonies of Kula and Glowacki in Höss's trial (1947) as well as Broad's "Reminiscences." (p 84; Tabeau's report on the wall appears in vol IV, pp 348--350). Some large executions, a number of them at the death wall, based on eyewitness testimony and records from the camp's resistance movement, are listed on pp 88-89, spanning from 11 November 1941 to 11 October 1943.

According to Pendas (The Frankfurt Auschwitz Trial), Boger admitted during his interrogations to being present for executions at the wall, dates not mentioned. (p 33, Pendas cites a few other testimonies about shootings at the wall, I believe one of these rejected by the court) Morgen also testified at the Frankfurt trial in 1965; he mentioned having seen the Black Wall when he inspected Auschwitz in November 1943. (Pauer-Studer & Velleman, Konrad Morgen: The Conscience of a Nazi Judge, pp 4-5)

I haven't researched the death wall and am adding this as another secondary source on your comment.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

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Re: The fraud in the Broad report

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Apr 14, 2017 1:03 am

Thanks, looks like my source was wrong about when it was taken down.

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Re: The fraud in the Broad report

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Apr 14, 2017 1:34 am

I should have added that Hans's HC piece has discussion of Frankfurt trial and testimonies at that trial.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: The fraud in the Broad report

Postby Xcalibur » Fri Apr 14, 2017 1:57 am

Could we cut to the chase and get a detailed statement from the OP about the actual "fraud"? :roll:

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Re: The fraud in the Broad report

Postby Hans » Fri Apr 14, 2017 5:46 am

Xcalibur wrote:Could we cut to the chase and get a detailed statement from the OP about the actual "fraud"? :roll:


I second that. I've completely missed the part where BroI has shown that the Black Wall did not exist in 1942/43 in Auschwitz, which is what Pery Broad was describing and which is corroborated by numerous other accounts from prisoners, local SS men and SS investigators. So far, the only fraud can be find in the thread title.

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Re: The fraud in the Broad report

Postby Hans » Fri Apr 14, 2017 5:55 am

The Black Wall is also mentioned in the war-time interrogation of Eleonore Hodys by SS investigators, but then I guess that's a fraud too.

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Re: The fraud in the Broad report

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Apr 14, 2017 5:28 pm

From Tabeau's report, written in December 1943-January 1944:

Image

http://www.fdrlibrary.marist.edu/_resou ... l00523.pdf, p 13

Like Hans and Xcalibur, I don't get this thread. I don't read anything in it that implicates Broad in "fraud." If it is about museology and the presence of the replicated wall, why does it accuse Broad of fraud? What's the point here?
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: The fraud in the Broad report

Postby BRoI » Fri Apr 14, 2017 6:29 pm

Jeffk 1970, I did know that about Liebehenschel, so I should of looked into it further.

SM, thanks for the information in your posts. I'm not accusing Broad of fraud, I'm arguing that his alleged report wasn't written entirely by him, as he himself claimed.

Xcalibur, here you go.

Hans wrote:I've completely missed the part where BroI has shown that the Black Wall did not exist in 1942/43 in Auschwitz, which is what Pery Broad was describing and which is corroborated by numerous other accounts from prisoners, local SS men and SS investigators. So far, the only fraud can be find in the thread title.

I never said the Black Wall *never* existed, I just pointed out it wasn't there in 1945. I was unaware that it had been dismantled in '43, or '44.

"Pery Broad" was describing the figures in Władysław Siwek's c.1950 watercolour. The similarities far exceed your claim "people experiencing the same event will have some overlap in their narrative".

Hans wrote:"The Black Wall is also mentioned in the war-time interrogation of Eleonore Hodys by SS investigators, but then I guess that's a fraud too."

Eleonore Hodys: born on 10 August 1903 in Vienna, last seen in 1947 in Leipzig, Talstrasse 15, divorced, academically educated, a pharmacist, a bacteriologist, a convicted political criminal, widely travelled. Yet there's not a scrap of tangible evidence that this woman ever actually existed, there's not even an Auschwitz prisoner number despite her having been in A1 for approximately 2 years.

All we're offered as proof of her existence is a statement in English, the post-war say-so of Morgen, Wiebeck and Reinecke, and references to her in four letters Morgen wrote to his girlfriend in October 1944—supposedly. Your colleague says the US 7th Army lost the German original of her statement; Pauer-Studer et al. claim it's in the IfZ Munich. But that's a lie. The IfZ has nothing nothing more than a translation of the English version published in the US 7th Army's propaganda booklet on Dachau.

Back to Broad, could you please tell me where you obtained NI-11397 and NI-11984 and some of what you know of their origin.

Either or both were cited early-ish by Reitlinger or Hilberg. I read in Kogon et al. Nazi Mass Murder and J. Billg et al. The Holocaust and the Neo-Nazi Mythomania that both these documents come from the IG Farben NMT. But I've looked through the list of prosecution exhibits for the trial several times and the only document relating to P. Broad I can see is NI-11954—his testimony at the Tesch trial.

I've found an extract from a 7 October 1945 interrogation at Kew, that seems to be unknown in the literature, and there's a letter dated 22 February 1946, that says he's being transferred the following day from Minden: "Perry Broad has recently given much useful information. He should therefore receive as good treatment as is possible within ALTONA Prison." No mention of this very lengthy report he gave in July 1945, and in Feb '46, July '45 is not "recently", considering his December '45 statement contains extracts of the July '45 one.
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Re: The fraud in the Broad report

Postby Hans » Sat Apr 15, 2017 7:50 am

BRoI wrote:I never said the Black Wall *never* existed, I just pointed out it wasn't there in 1945. I was unaware that it had been dismantled in '43, or '44.


Come on, wouldn't that be the most obvious conclusion?!

I mean it was a wooden board that served for executions including illegal killings for which Grabner was trialed in 1944 and the Auschwitz SS is supposed to have kept that for the Soviets if it existed? As monument for the criminal killings in the camp?

The Nazis destroyed far more rigid structures like the Bunkers (or are these a fraud too?) and blew up the crematoria, but then you thought it were likely they kept that piece in place if it existed? If you had not been so obsessed with your false hypothesis that the Broad report was not written by Pery Broad in 1945, you would have realized this. Already in the Broad posting I had included several testimonies on the Black Wall and this is just a fraction of testimonies.

"Pery Broad" was describing the figures in Władysław Siwek's c.1950 watercolour. The similarities far exceed your claim "people experiencing the same event will have some overlap in their narrative".


No, it is exactly the kind of similiarity you would expect for good observers seeing the same kind of scene. It corroborates the historical reality of the narrative. Suppose people witness how a big guy is pressing the heads of two prisoners towards a black wall to get shot. Some of those will later independently describe just that, that a big guy is pressing the heads of two prisoners towards a black wall to get shot. They would be "inspired" by nothing but their memory having captured the same scene.

There is nothing improbable that the two sources describe same elements - nor do they match exactly. In fact, Broad's description contains elements lacking on the painting, like that the pallbearer had stretchers and that another prisoner with a shovle stood next to the Black Wall. You quoted mined that.

Eleonore Hodys: born on 10 August 1903 in Vienna, last seen in 1947 in Leipzig, Talstrasse 15, divorced, academically educated, a pharmacist, a bacteriologist, a convicted political criminal, widely travelled. Yet there's not a scrap of tangible evidence that this woman ever actually existed, there's not even an Auschwitz prisoner number despite her having been in A1 for approximately 2 years.
All we're offered as proof of her existence is a statement in English, the post-war say-so of Morgen, Wiebeck and Reinecke, and references to her in four letters Morgen wrote to his girlfriend in October 1944—supposedly. Your colleague says the US 7th Army lost the German original of her statement; Pauer-Studer et al. claim it's in the IfZ Munich. But that's a lie. The IfZ has nothing nothing more than a translation of the English version published in the US 7th Army's propaganda booklet on Dachau.

The testimonies of no less than five SS investigators - Konrad Morgen, Gerhard Wiebeck, Helmut Bartsch, Kurt Mittelstädt, Günther Reinecke - and the war-time interrogation of her by the SS - even if only available as post-war English translation - is some decent evidence on her existence in Auschwitz. Unless you can offer anything to the contrary, which a lack of reference in the notoriously incomplete Auschwitz records certainly isn't.

Hodys was interrogated by the Poles in August 1947 (reference in Deselaers, Und Sie hatten nie Gewissensbisse?, p. 195). According to Rainer Höß, grandson of the Auschwitz commandant, Hodys is shown on this photograph with Höß' children according to his driver Leo Heger and she is listed in the death registry of Salzburg (Rainer Höß, Erber des Kommandanten).

Back to Broad, could you please tell me where you obtained NI-11397 and NI-11984 and some of what you know of their origin.

Either or both were cited early-ish by Reitlinger or Hilberg. I read in Kogon et al. Nazi Mass Murder and J. Billg et al. The Holocaust and the Neo-Nazi Mythomania that both these documents come from the IG Farben NMT. But I've looked through the list of prosecution exhibits for the trial several times and the only document relating to P. Broad I can see is NI-11954—his testimony at the Tesch trial.


NI-11397 was probably posted in the reference section of the deleted RODOH1, possibly from NARA. NI-11984 I had purchased from Centre de documentation Juive Contemporaine. No more info known.
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Re: The fraud in the Broad report

Postby Hans » Sat Apr 15, 2017 8:02 am

BRoI wrote:Jeffk 1970, I did know that about Liebehenschel, so I should of looked into it further.

SM, thanks for the information in your posts. I'm not accusing Broad of fraud, I'm arguing that his alleged report wasn't written entirely by him, as he himself claimed.


I had already addressed this:


According to this transcript, Broad stated that he accepted that some of the report is from his manuscript, but not the whole document and that it seemed to him that it contains a lot of external knowledge. He immediately weakened this assertion and acknowledged that a lot in the report was correct, only some was wrong. He also agreed that it seems like the report is written in one style and by one person and that is him. He confirmed that the descriptions of the Zeppelin-Kommando, the gassings, the gas chambers, the destruction of the Hungarian Jews in spring 1944, the gypsies' camp and Grabner activities are his own. He identified specifically the number of victims as something which he could not recall anymore w[h]ere it did come from and which he could not know.[10] On this latter issue some more information was provided by the lawyer of the joint plaintiff Ormond in his examination of van het Kaar. On the question, where he got the number of victims from, Broad replied that he may have taken it from the press.[11]

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... broad.html

There is no substantial evidence the report was authored by anyone then himself. That he felt inconvenient with the report and lost some memory 19 years later details is understandable and perfectly explains his initial reaction.

The Black Wall shooting is already contained in his pretrial interrogation, so this was his own knowledge and he would have put that in the report too. Though he stated the prisoners were sent there individually, Boger also testified pretrial that either one or two prisoners were sent to the shooting and hold by the Bunker prisoner, which supports it had been known to Broad when his memory was still fresh.
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Re: The fraud in the Broad report

Postby Hans » Sat Apr 15, 2017 8:25 am

Jan Pilecki, who was the clerk of Block 11, also described the practice of shooting of two prisoners:
"Wenn der Funktionshäftling mit den zwei Delinquenten vor der Schwarzen Wand stand, gingen zwei SS-Männer mit je einem Kalibergewehr auf den stehenden Häftling zu und schossen ihm in den Hinterkopf (Genickschuß)."

(Das Verfahren: 45. Verhandlungstag (14.05.1964). Der 1. Frankfurter Auschwitz-Prozeß, S. 7641)

Likewise the corpse carrier Czeslaw Glowacki:

"Es wurden jeweils zwei Häftlinge an die Schwarzen Wand geführt. Man stellte sie mit dem Gesicht zur Wand, ungefähr ein bis zwei Meter voneinander entfernt. dann näherte sich ihnen der Erschießende. Er führte den Karabiner direkt an das Genick des Delinquenten und schoß aus einer Entfernung von zehn Zentimetern auf den stehenden Häftling. Der daneben stehende Delinquent konnte das beobachten. Wenn der erste umfiel, wurde der zweite erschossen. Dann näherten wir Leichenträger uns und brachten die Leiche auf einer Bahre etwas abseits zu einer Blutrinne."

(Das Verfahren: 40. Verhandlungstag (23.04.1964). Der 1. Frankfurter Auschwitz-Prozeß, S. 6513)

Likewise the German prisoner Herbert Kurz:

"Die Häftlinge wurden von dem Bunkerkapo Jakob an die Schwarze Wand geführt. Kurz danach fielen die Schüsse. Jakob brachte
dann die Leichen nach links. Anschließend brachte er wieder zwei Häftlinge zum Erschießen."


(Das Verfahren: 27. Verhandlungstag (16.03.1964). Der 1. Frankfurter Auschwitz-Prozeß, S. 6019f.)

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Re: The fraud in the Broad report

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:26 pm

BRoI wrote:SM, thanks for the information in your posts. I'm not accusing Broad of fraud, I'm arguing that his alleged report wasn't written entirely by him, as he himself claimed.

The reason that this hasn't been clear is that you entitled the thread "The fraud in the Broad report" and posted almost exclusively about the black wall at Auschwitz and when it was present, or absent, implying if not stating outright that Broad might never have seen it, and about the sources for the wall's reconstruction - but not about the ostensible topic, the writing of the Broad report and Broad's claims about that.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: The fraud in the Broad report

Postby Balsamo » Sat Apr 15, 2017 8:26 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
BRoI wrote:SM, thanks for the information in your posts. I'm not accusing Broad of fraud, I'm arguing that his alleged report wasn't written entirely by him, as he himself claimed.

The reason that this hasn't been clear is that you entitled the thread "The fraud in the Broad report" and posted almost exclusively about the black wall at Auschwitz and when it was present, or absent, implying if not stating outright that Broad might never have seen it, and about the sources for the wall's reconstruction - but not about the ostensible topic, the writing of the Broad report and Broad's claims about that.


This is indeed how i understood it as well.
You should have checked what happened to this black wall before opening the thread.

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Re: The fraud in the Broad report

Postby Denying-History » Sun Apr 16, 2017 2:46 am

Balsamo wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
BRoI wrote:SM, thanks for the information in your posts. I'm not accusing Broad of fraud, I'm arguing that his alleged report wasn't written entirely by him, as he himself claimed.

The reason that this hasn't been clear is that you entitled the thread "The fraud in the Broad report" and posted almost exclusively about the black wall at Auschwitz and when it was present, or absent, implying if not stating outright that Broad might never have seen it, and about the sources for the wall's reconstruction - but not about the ostensible topic, the writing of the Broad report and Broad's claims about that.


This is indeed how i understood it as well.
You should have checked what happened to this black wall before opening the thread.
He should have also checked when Broad arrived.
« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
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Re: The fraud in the Broad report

Postby Xcalibur » Sun Apr 16, 2017 2:56 am

So we're done here. Excellent.

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Re: The fraud in the Broad report

Postby BRoI » Sun Apr 16, 2017 11:38 am

Jeffk was the only one to acknowledge that I did post details on the Black Wall being removed in 1943 soon after opening the thread.

BRoI wrote:On 13 November 2008 the AB museum created a webpage that mentioned "The Death Wall" is a reconstruction.
http://auschwitz.org/en/visiting/permanent-exhibition/death-wall/

Derek Dalton wrote about his March 2007 visit to Auschwitz in his 2015 book Dark Tourism and Crime, and mentioned the guide told him that the original was removed in 1943.
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Re: The fraud in the Broad report

Postby BRoI » Sun Apr 16, 2017 11:55 am

Hans wrote:The testimonies of no less than five SS investigators - Konrad Morgen, Gerhard Wiebeck, Helmut Bartsch, Kurt Mittelstädt, Günther Reinecke - and the war-time interrogation of her by the SS - even if only available as post-war English translation - is some decent evidence on her existence in Auschwitz. Unless you can offer anything to the contrary, which a lack of reference in the notoriously incomplete Auschwitz records certainly isn't.


I see that Langbein would add the testimony of Grabner and that of a couple of prisoners to confirm the existence of 'Diamond Nora'.

Can you prove that there's gaps in the prisoner list for Hodys' alleged arrival date[s] as I can find no confirmation of that? Hodys' number wasn't even recorded by Marian Węclewicz, nor the SS judges, despite the fact that she mentions the numbers of various other prisoners in her alleged statement that only survived in English.
"... these witnesses would swear to anything if it gets the Germans killed."
- Solomon Surowitz, Assistant Prosecutor at the 1947 Buchenwald trial.

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Re: The fraud in the Broad report

Postby BRoI » Sun Apr 16, 2017 4:21 pm

Hans wrote:Jan Pilecki, who was the clerk of Block 11, also described the practice of shooting of two prisoners:
"Wenn der Funktionshäftling mit den zwei Delinquenten vor der Schwarzen Wand stand, gingen zwei SS-Männer mit je einem Kalibergewehr auf den stehenden Häftling zu und schossen ihm in den Hinterkopf (Genickschuß)."

(Das Verfahren: 45. Verhandlungstag (14.05.1964). Der 1. Frankfurter Auschwitz-Prozeß, S. 7641)

Likewise the corpse carrier Czeslaw Glowacki:

"Es wurden jeweils zwei Häftlinge an die Schwarzen Wand geführt. Man stellte sie mit dem Gesicht zur Wand, ungefähr ein bis zwei Meter voneinander entfernt. dann näherte sich ihnen der Erschießende. Er führte den Karabiner direkt an das Genick des Delinquenten und schoß aus einer Entfernung von zehn Zentimetern auf den stehenden Häftling. Der daneben stehende Delinquent konnte das beobachten. Wenn der erste umfiel, wurde der zweite erschossen. Dann näherten wir Leichenträger uns und brachten die Leiche auf einer Bahre etwas abseits zu einer Blutrinne."

(Das Verfahren: 40. Verhandlungstag (23.04.1964). Der 1. Frankfurter Auschwitz-Prozeß, S. 6513)

Likewise the German prisoner Herbert Kurz:

"Die Häftlinge wurden von dem Bunkerkapo Jakob an die Schwarze Wand geführt. Kurz danach fielen die Schüsse. Jakob brachte
dann die Leichen nach links. Anschließend brachte er wieder zwei Häftlinge zum Erschießen."


(Das Verfahren: 27. Verhandlungstag (16.03.1964). Der 1. Frankfurter Auschwitz-Prozeß, S. 6019f.)


Testimony all given the year after the movie Passenger (Pasażerka) once again depicted just such a scene:

Image

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3fC81P0_jk&feature=youtu.be

Did anyone give testimony about only one person being shot at a time, or that didn't involve a Kapo?

The Summary Court in Katowice generally came to Auschwitz every four to six weeks and met in Block 11. Most of the prisoners who had been imprisoned there, including those who were brought in shortly before, were led before the presiding tribunal and questioned through interpreters about their testimony and confessions. The prisoners whom I had witnessed there freely, openly, and firmly admitted what they had done. Some of the women bravely pleaded their cases. In most cases the death sentence was pronounced and carried out immediately. All of them went to their death proudly. They were as calm as the hostages. They were convinced that they were sacrificing themselves for their country. I often saw in their eyes a fanaticism which reminded me of the Jehovah's Witnesses and the way they died.

- Hoess memoirs [Death Dealer version], pp.130.131
"... these witnesses would swear to anything if it gets the Germans killed."
- Solomon Surowitz, Assistant Prosecutor at the 1947 Buchenwald trial.

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Re: The fraud in the Broad report

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Apr 16, 2017 6:34 pm

BRoI wrote:Jeffk was the only one to acknowledge that I did post details on the Black Wall being removed in 1943 soon after opening the thread.

BRoI wrote:On 13 November 2008 the AB museum created a webpage that mentioned "The Death Wall" is a reconstruction.
http://auschwitz.org/en/visiting/permanent-exhibition/death-wall/

Derek Dalton wrote about his March 2007 visit to Auschwitz in his 2015 book Dark Tourism and Crime, and mentioned the guide told him that the original was removed in 1943.


That information might be wrong based upon what Stat Mech posted above. In any case, the wall was removed in either 1943 or 1944.

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Re: The fraud in the Broad report

Postby Denying-History » Sun Apr 16, 2017 10:06 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
BRoI wrote:Jeffk was the only one to acknowledge that I did post details on the Black Wall being removed in 1943 soon after opening the thread.

BRoI wrote:On 13 November 2008 the AB museum created a webpage that mentioned "The Death Wall" is a reconstruction.
http://auschwitz.org/en/visiting/permanent-exhibition/death-wall/

Derek Dalton wrote about his March 2007 visit to Auschwitz in his 2015 book Dark Tourism and Crime, and mentioned the guide told him that the original was removed in 1943.


That information might be wrong based upon what Stat Mech posted above. In any case, the wall was removed in either 1943 or 1944.
I don't think that anyone said that he didn't look it up. Balsamo pretty much acknowledges it with his statement that BRoI should have looked it up before starting this thread.
« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
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Re: The fraud in the Broad report

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Mon Apr 17, 2017 8:56 am

BRoI wrote:I see that Langbein would add the testimony of Grabner and that of a couple of prisoners to confirm the existence of 'Diamond Nora'.
Yes, something that could have been found within 5 minutes through a simple Google Books search, thus sparing the one making an absurd conspiracy claim some embarrassment.

Can you prove that there's gaps in the prisoner list for Hodys' alleged arrival date[s]
Can you prove that there are not? Because with the existence of Hodys firmly established (and never really having been in doubt) the burden of proof is on you.

as I can find no confirmation of that?
You could not even find Langbein's witnesses (not to mention Grabner's testimony, which has been hanging at HC for some time now), so what you could or could not find is of not much consequence.

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Re: The fraud in the Broad report

Postby Hans » Mon Apr 17, 2017 12:19 pm

BRoI wrote:Testimony all given the year after the movie Passenger (Pasażerka) once again depicted just such a scene:


You just throw in some info insinuating something to the reader without discussing the actual relevance.

There is no evidence or reason that either witness pulled the description from the movie. Pilecki and Glowacki were working at the site, they knew the shootings and it is implausible they would make up two victims just because it was depicted in a movie if there was only one. In fact, Pilecki mentioned two victims already in his pre-trial interrogation before the movie was released. And Kurz lived in West-Germany where the movie wasn't released at the time.

If anything, testimonies of prisoners on the shooting of two victims at the Black Wall "inspired" the movie.

Did anyone give testimony about only one person being shot at a time, or that didn't involve a Kapo?


I'm sure there is, but won't invest any more time on this searching in the sources. According to Boger, both shooting one or two prisoners were practiced and there is indeed no reason why among thousands of Black Wall shootings it would have been always one way or another. Already for an uneven number of victims on a day, there was a single shooting required.

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Re: The fraud in the Broad report

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Mon Apr 17, 2017 1:21 pm

An excerpt from Alfred Woycicki's proposal for the block 11 museum exhibition concerning the restoration of the Black Wall site (not dated, AZIH 209/315):

Dziedziniec ten, jako miejsce wielu tisiecy egzekucji, ma byc przywrocony do stanu pierwotnego, z uzupelnieniem nielicznymi elementami ilustrujacymi akcje "likwidowania" wiezniow. Przed wprowadzeniem zwiedzajacych na dziedziniec, nalezy im pokazac umywalnie meska tzw. Waschraum. To winno uprzytomnic droge z bunkra, poprzez ceremonial stosowany w umywalni przed "rozwalka", az do czarnej sciany.

Na dziedzincu nalezy czarna sciane doprowadzic do stanu z lat obozu. Przed nia przestrzed kilku metrow kwadratowych wysypac piaskem, a nie zwirem. W tym miejscu ustawic u stop czarnego ekranu mala tablice informacyjne, ilu ludzi tu sginelo. W kacie medzy blokiem X i czarnym ekranem zmontowac taka szubienice, jakie byly stosowane w Oswiecimu. U jej podstawy dac tablice o najkrotszej tresci: ".....ofiar", o ile liczba ta bedzie do sprawdzenia. Po drigoej stronie czarnego ekranu, w kacie kolo Bloku XI usypac spory kopczyk piasku i wetknac wen lopate. W drewnianym obramowaniu terenu wylozonego piaskem, proponowalbym umiescic mala emaliowana tabliczke z napisem informujacym, kiedy powstala ta czarna sciana i do kiedy sluzyla za miejsce egzekuci.

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Re: The fraud in the Broad report

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:54 pm

So BRoI you wrote, "I'm not accusing Broad of fraud, I'm arguing that his alleged report wasn't written entirely by him, as he himself claimed." Yet your discussion has been about the death wall itself, not yet about Broad's report.

Clearly, from 1943 through Höss's trial in 1947, and after, various individuals testified about the wall and/or admitted to its existence and use.

You seem to find it telling that such testimony has been echoed elsewhere but also to confuse sound and echo.

What is the topic here and what are you trying to say? I mean, spelled out and in plainspeak.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: The fraud in the Broad report

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Apr 17, 2017 3:01 pm

Sergey_Romanov wrote:An excerpt from Alfred Woycicki's proposal for the block 11 museum exhibition concerning the restoration of the Black Wall site (not dated, AZIH 209/315):

Dziedziniec ten, jako miejsce wielu tisiecy egzekucji, ma byc przywrocony do stanu pierwotnego, z uzupelnieniem nielicznymi elementami ilustrujacymi akcje "likwidowania" wiezniow. Przed wprowadzeniem zwiedzajacych na dziedziniec, nalezy im pokazac umywalnie meska tzw. Waschraum. To winno uprzytomnic droge z bunkra, poprzez ceremonial stosowany w umywalni przed "rozwalka", az do czarnej sciany.

Na dziedzincu nalezy czarna sciane doprowadzic do stanu z lat obozu. Przed nia przestrzed kilku metrow kwadratowych wysypac piaskem, a nie zwirem. W tym miejscu ustawic u stop czarnego ekranu mala tablice informacyjne, ilu ludzi tu sginelo. W kacie medzy blokiem X i czarnym ekranem zmontowac taka szubienice, jakie byly stosowane w Oswiecimu. U jej podstawy dac tablice o najkrotszej tresci: ".....ofiar", o ile liczba ta bedzie do sprawdzenia. Po drigoej stronie czarnego ekranu, w kacie kolo Bloku XI usypac spory kopczyk piasku i wetknac wen lopate. W drewnianym obramowaniu terenu wylozonego piaskem, proponowalbym umiescic mala emaliowana tabliczke z napisem informujacym, kiedy powstala ta czarna sciana i do kiedy sluzyla za miejsce egzekuci.


My crappy translation:
This courtyard, as a place of many executions, is to be restored to its original state, with a few additions illustrating the actions of "liquidating" the prison. Before introducing visitors to the courtyard, they should show the washroom male so-called. Waschraum. It should take the path from the bunker, through the ceremonial used in the washroom before the "bluff", and to the black wall.

The black wall of the courtyard should lead to the state of the camp years. In front of a few square meters of sand poured over the sand, not a jog. Set here at the stop of the black screen the small sign boards, how many people were dying here. In the cataclysm of the X block and the black screen, mount the gallows that were used in Oswiecim. At the base of it give tables of the shortest content: "..... victims", if this number is to be checked. On the side of the black screen, block a block of sand and tie the wen lopate in the block of Block XI. In a wooden framed sandy area, I would suggest placing a small enamelled sign with the inscription on when the black wall came into being, and when it was used for the place of the execution.

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Re: The fraud in the Broad report

Postby NathanC » Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:13 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:So BRoI you wrote, "I'm not accusing Broad of fraud, I'm arguing that his alleged report wasn't written entirely by him, as he himself claimed." Yet your discussion has been about the death wall itself, not yet about Broad's report.

Clearly, from 1943 through Höss's trial in 1947, and after, various individuals testified about the wall and/or admitted to its existence and use.

You seem to find it telling that such testimony has been echoed elsewhere but also to confuse sound and echo.

What is the topic here and what are you trying to say? I mean, spelled out and in plainspeak.


The Rabbit started this discussion by casting doubt on the veracity of Broad's report because the report was "allegedly" written in mid 1945, yet contains references to the Black wall, which - according to the videos the Rabbit shared - was no longer up as of early 1945. Thus, the whole Premise of the Rabbit's OP rests on the claim or assumption that since the wall was not there anymore in early 1945, the report's "Real" author must've made it up for whatever reason.

Of course, the Rabbit answered his own question. He himself shared information showing that the wall post 1945 is a reconstruction, and that it's a simple matter to remove the wall. Thus, problem solved. Broad's account obviously refers to pre 1945 when the original wall was up and used. The whole assumption underlying the Rabbit's claim - Broad not being able to see the wall and thus not being the author of his report - is false, as the Rabbit himself has shown. The discussion should be over.

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Re: The fraud in the Broad report

Postby Darren Wilshak » Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:58 pm

Its probably quite hard to get out of that way of mental cognizance if one has been fairly steeped in Anti Semitism and a habitual thinker and user of the group think terminology of denier speak. To give the BroI his due and he deserves it for staying with the scene instead of just quietly disappearing as so many other do - he could very likely not have the support post denial that some of the other ex deniers have had and is clearly still viewing the sources in a half-way-house denier-ish manner, hence this less than satisfactory post.

He's talented though and as Nick Terry has observed he is among the few bloody deniers to have actually carried out original research. Even if it has proven to often lead up a blind alley.

Who knows, he may soon dig out something from the PRO or the annex of the NLS in Edinburgh that is of significance to Holocaust scholarship - say along the lines of Hans' discovery of a document further tying Gustav Laabs to a Kulmhof homicidal gas van, as was recently published here.

https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... s-van.html

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Re: The fraud in the Broad report

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:13 pm

Jankowski on 16.04.1945:

"A gallows for two persons stood in front of the block and the famous "black wall" in front of which prisoners used to be shot."

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Re: The fraud in the Broad report

Postby BRoI » Tue Apr 25, 2017 2:26 pm

Hans wrote:NI-11397 was probably posted in the reference section of the deleted RODOH1, possibly from NARA. NI-11984 I had purchased from Centre de documentation Juive Contemporaine. No more info known.


In your detailed article on Broad you failed to mention anything about the fact that Broad testified at the IG Farben trial.

Here are the mentions of Broad that I spotted in the transcript of the trial:

26.11.47:
The prosecution submitted NI-11954 [Broad's Tesch trial testimony] as Prosecution Exhibit 1762 [transcript p.4408]. This document is found in Prosecution Document Book 82, pp.50-62 [English version], and an accompanying affidavit by Alfred H. Elbau states that this document was received on 15.09.47 by OCCWC from War Crimes Group [NW Europe].

The defence immediately objected to admission of this document as the witness wasn't to be to be cross-examined. The prosecution replied "if he is asked for cross examination, he is available". The objection was overruled and Broad's Tesch trial testimony was received by the court [pp.4409-4410].

Numerous other documents relating to the Tesch trial were also submitted on this day, including Bendel's Tesch trial testimony [NI-11953].


09.01.48:
Defence counsel Dr. Wolfgang Heintzeler enquired as to when Perry Broad and other prosecution witnesses from the British Zone were to appear before the tribunal that week as the prosecution had previously advised in a written communication.

Prosecutor Sprecher replied saying "that there were three affidavits from the British Zone" [Broad, Bendel, and Alfred Zaun a former bookkeeper for Testa], "I have had no indication that these witnesses either have agreed or have been directed to come here ... All we can do is request the British authorities to send them down here, and if nothing happens, well we have exhausted our authority." "Now, we feel that we have just about exhausted the bottom of the barrel. If one of these persons should come along because the British shall find him and send him at a later date—that would be fine. But there doesn't seem to be an assurance that that is going to happen. If there is any doubt that the British have been requested to send the witnesses, we will be glad to see that you are satisfied in that regard. But the matter of the fact is that the postal system still works well, and the means of cross-examination by interrogatory is open and has not been used" [5023-5024].


16.01.48:
Prosecutor Sprecher: "I have just been informed that Perry Broad, from the British Zone, has also arrived and is anxious to get back, and therefore, I would like to take this means of giving notice to the Defense that Perry Broad will also be before the Commissioner tomorrow, so there will be not lack of notice" [5385-6].


17.01.48:
Alfred Zaun, bookkeeper for Testa, testifies [5472-5492].

Perry Broad testifies [5495-5512]; Bendel didn't testify until 18.03.48.

Prosecutor Minskoff stated [5492] that Broad's affidavit was already submitted [i.e. his Tesch trial testimony], and twice asked Broad if he wanted to make any "changes, additions, or corrections" to his Tesch trial testimony—he made one correction [5495].

Broad stated under cross-examination that at the moment he resided in the witness wing of the Nuremberg prison, but he would be returning to Munsterlager, where he lived and worked as a clerk for a civilian firm called "Mueller and Alvermann" [a lumber yard, seemingly]. Broad said he was trying to return to Brazil but couldn't secure enough foreign currency to do so [5510-5511].


Broad's statement of 20.10.47 [NI-11984] was supposedly made in Nuremberg, but this assertion raises a number of questions?

1. Why was NI-11984 never submitted to the trial? Why was he brought to Nuremberg to make a statement that was never even used?

2. Who translated NI-11397 to English on 29.09.47, as claimed on p.141 of Kogon et al., Nazi Mass Murder, and what was the point when it was never submitted to the trial either?

3. If Broad was really in Nuremberg on 20.10.47, why was he allowed to leave without first appearing before the tribunal? The bench had ruled on 30.09.47 that the author of any affidavit submitted as evidence must be made available for cross-examination [exemptions were made at least for two affidavits by Hoess]. Considering the trouble the prosecution had in securing Broad's appearance on 17.1.48 [detailed above], it seems ridiculous that they didn't get him to appear around 20.10.47 when he was in Nuremberg making a statement that was never even submitted to the trial!
"... these witnesses would swear to anything if it gets the Germans killed."
- Solomon Surowitz, Assistant Prosecutor at the 1947 Buchenwald trial.

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Re: The fraud in the Broad report

Postby BRoI » Tue Apr 25, 2017 2:46 pm

I looked through the transcript from 19.09.47 - 17.01.48 [roughly 4,500 pages], I checked the prosecution exhibit list, and looked at several of the prosecution document books that featured other documents relating to the Tesch trial or ones that just featured exhibits with Nuremberg document codes close to Broad's alleged affidavits NI-11397 and NI-11984. Nowhere did I see any mention or even allusion to NI-11397 or NI-11984, nor that Broad was in Nuremberg at any other point prior to when he arrived to testify [17.01.48]
"... these witnesses would swear to anything if it gets the Germans killed."
- Solomon Surowitz, Assistant Prosecutor at the 1947 Buchenwald trial.

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Re: The fraud in the Broad report

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Tue Apr 25, 2017 4:51 pm

I'm afraid I don't see the significance of something not being submitted The thick Soviet file with the results of the 1944 investigation of Treblinka got the USSR-... code but was never submitted. At least two Babiy Yar SKs were interrogated specifically for Nuremberg (I read the interrogations at GARF) but those were also never submitted.

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Re: The fraud in the Broad report

Postby BRoI » Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:14 pm

Prosecutors pick and choose the witness testimony they want to use. I have photos of over 500 affidavits collected at Belsen, but the prosecution used less than a quarter of them at the Lueneburg-Belsen trial. You could probably make a shaky analogy with those, or your Babi Yar SK, with Broad's 14.12.45 affidavit not being used at the IG Farben trial, but you certainly couldn't make one with his 20.10.47 affidavit.

Broad was dragged to Nuremberg to make that unused affidavit and only after the IG Farben trial had already started. His 20.10.47 affidavit furnished the prosecutors with precisely what they required: evidence that the extermination programme at Birkenau was well known amongst the local residents, and anyone who ever visited, did business with, or even just passed by the Birkenau camp [read his testimony at the trial for confirmation that this is what the prosecutors wanted to prove]. As I've already shown, the prosecution had to present Broad at the trial if they wanted to submit any statement by him as evidence, so it's absurd that they let him return to Northern Germany unless they had made a decision not to submit any of his statements to the trial. Later they must have changed their minds and submitted his Tesch trial testimony, knowing that they then had the task of having Broad dragged back to Nuremberg.

The Nuremberg document codes NI-11397 and NI-11984 do appear to at least be consistent with the codes issued for other documents received at Nuremberg in September and October of 1947.
"... these witnesses would swear to anything if it gets the Germans killed."
- Solomon Surowitz, Assistant Prosecutor at the 1947 Buchenwald trial.


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