Sean Spicer screws up, deniers go wild!!!!!

Holocaust denial and related subjects.
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Sean Spicer screws up, deniers go wild!!!!!

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:13 pm


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Re: Sean Spicer screws up, deniers go wild!!!!!

Postby NathanC » Wed Apr 12, 2017 4:14 pm

Wasn't Spicer also the one who delivered and defended the controversial statement last January that omitted mention of Jewish victims?

IIRC, back in 2009, Deniers also went into a tizzy when Obama mistakenly named Auschwitz as the camp his uncle liberated. IMO, Obama's mistake and Spencer's statements prove what Nick Terry and Statmech pointed out a while back. There's no "Holocaust Industry"; contrary to the denier strawman of the evil government "Brainwashing" people with Holocaust memorials and propaganda, most people - including no less than an American President and a White house spokesperson - don't even know the basics about the Holocaust and display a shocking level of ignorance about it. An ignorance that can only be explained by the fact that there is no "propaganda" or "brainwashing".

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Re: Sean Spicer screws up, deniers go wild!!!!!

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 4:22 pm

NathanC wrote:Wasn't Spicer also the one who delivered and defended the controversial statement last January that omitted mention of Jewish victims?


I think that was a released statement by Trump that Spicer had to defend:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.businessinsider.com/spicer-trump-holocaust-statement-2017-01

IIRC, back in 2009, Deniers also went into a tizzy when Obama mistakenly named Auschwitz as the camp his uncle liberated. IMO, Obama's mistake and Spencer's statements prove what Nick Terry and Statmech pointed out a while back. There's no "Holocaust Industry"; contrary to the denier strawman of the evil government "Brainwashing" people with Holocaust memorials and propaganda, most people - including no less than an American President and a White house spokesperson - don't even know the basics about the Holocaust and display a shocking level of ignorance about it. An ignorance that can only be explained by the fact that there is no "propaganda" or "brainwashing".


I completely agree, which is why I think politicians and public administrators should:

1) stop commenting on things they don't understand or don't know about.
2) take some time to learn about it if they do choose to talk about it. Good grief, a Google search would prevent these embarrassing incidents.

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Re: Sean Spicer screws up, deniers go wild!!!!!

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 4:38 pm


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Re: Sean Spicer screws up, deniers go wild!!!!!

Postby Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:17 pm

Spicer McCarthy tried to fix it, and he came with 'Holocaust centers'. Where did he hear something like that?
According to experts and scholars, the 10 stages of every genocide are
Classification Symbolization Discrimination Dehumanization Organization Polarization Preparation Persecution Extermination
... and finally the 10th stage:
Denial
http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocide/t ... ocide.html

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Re: Sean Spicer screws up, deniers go wild!!!!!

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:10 pm

Assad wouldn't use gas: "I mean, come on, even Hitler refrained from doing this."
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Sean Spicer screws up, deniers go wild!!!!!

Postby Balsamo » Thu Apr 13, 2017 12:30 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Assad wouldn't use gas: "I mean, come on, even Hitler refrained from doing this."


As well as Churchill... ;)

I was referring to theories of international affairs that focus on the use of such weapons, not to outline any form of humanity in Hitler.
On of the principles is that States acts on their own interests (or on what they perceive as such), and usually refrain from taking actions that can be prejudicial.
Here no one even care to propose even a slight allusion to any interests/benefits that Syria could have gain. Form where i stand, it looks like all their victories have been erased.

Weapons of mass destruction, including chemical and nuclear, is a "game" in which no player has an interest at using them. This is why they have been very rarely used in conflict between States. If during a conflict a Party use such a weapon, it is because of extremely favorable circumstances that guarantee that it will face no consequences or limited ones, in any case less important than the potential gains.

Hitler did not use chemical weapons because of this principle only, not because he was less evil / better, or that kind of {!#%@}.
The USA did - the only one - use nuclear weapons again Japan, although horrible, it does not make Roosevelt or Truman worse than Hitler who did not. Hitler, as well as Churchill, and even Stalin did not use WMD because they all knew that every Parties had a stock of them just in case. The basic of dissuasion, actually. It is not about good or bad.

There is a science and theories explaining those dynamics, that provides key of understanding for those events. But apparently we are not even asked to understand, just swallow what is said on CNN or the BBC which "seem to take for granted that..."
Ironically, when a historic controversy pops up so do historians, experts, explaining the this and that of the controversy.
In this case - which is quite important given the dramatic turns it imposes on the region - nada, niet in any articles i have read.
Hence my question if anyone found one, as the USA have a lot of 24 hours news channel i don't have.

And it is your government who comes with the kindergarten crap "Assad worse than Hitler", not me. It is absolutely insane that at this level of power, basic principles of Geopolitics are ignored, but that in addition they get to decide for the future of millions, with the silent complicity of the broad media who will just parrot what comes from above, without even asking "Why would he have done that?" "What evidence do we have?"...did any of the journalists asked one of these simple question?
Any brave who would have asked " Al-Quida" managed to hijack three boing and crashing into the WTC and the Pentagon, but we are told they would not have the expertise to explode a device loaded with chemical agents?"

Still searching, and was even able to find one - and i thought i was hallucinating - It says Assad did it to force Putin into not negotiating. That is something!

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Re: Sean Spicer screws up, deniers go wild!!!!!

Postby Gord » Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:03 am

He also said, "We didn't use chemical weapons in WWII...."

No, chemical weapons were never actually "used" by the allies in WWII, but they made them for use and even had them on hand in case they decided to use them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_ ... ern_Allies

And don't forget the John Harvey: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_John_Harvey

In August 1943, Roosevelt approved the shipment of chemical munitions containing mustard agent to the Mediterranean theater. On 18 November 1943 the John Harvey, commanded by Captain Elwin F. Knowles, sailed from Oran, Algeria, to Italy, carrying 2,000 M47A1 mustard gas bombs, each of which held 60–70 lb of sulfur mustard....

...On 2 December 1943 German aircraft attacked Bari, killing over 1,000 people, and sinking 17 ships, including the John Harvey, which was destroyed in a huge explosion, causing liquid sulfur mustard to spill into the water and a cloud of sulfur mustard vapor to blow over the city.
A total of 628 military victims were hospitalized with mustard gas symptoms, and by the end of the month, 83 of them had died. The number of civilian casualties, thought to have been even greater, could not be accurately gauged since most had left the city to seek shelter with relatives.

The allies were prepared to use chemical weapons. Probably the biggest reason invoked at the time to NOT use them was because the Germans would probably retaliate likewise. We probably shouldn't preen ourselves on our moral hindsight.
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Re: Sean Spicer screws up, deniers go wild!!!!!

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:07 am

Gord wrote:He also said, "We didn't use chemical weapons in WWII...."

No, chemical weapons were never actually "used" by the allies in WWII, but they made them for use and even had them on hand in case they decided to use them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_ ... ern_Allies

And don't forget the John Harvey: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_John_Harvey

In August 1943, Roosevelt approved the shipment of chemical munitions containing mustard agent to the Mediterranean theater. On 18 November 1943 the John Harvey, commanded by Captain Elwin F. Knowles, sailed from Oran, Algeria, to Italy, carrying 2,000 M47A1 mustard gas bombs, each of which held 60–70 lb of sulfur mustard....

...On 2 December 1943 German aircraft attacked Bari, killing over 1,000 people, and sinking 17 ships, including the John Harvey, which was destroyed in a huge explosion, causing liquid sulfur mustard to spill into the water and a cloud of sulfur mustard vapor to blow over the city.
A total of 628 military victims were hospitalized with mustard gas symptoms, and by the end of the month, 83 of them had died. The number of civilian casualties, thought to have been even greater, could not be accurately gauged since most had left the city to seek shelter with relatives.

The allies were prepared to use chemical weapons. Probably the biggest reason invoked at the time to NOT use them was because the Germans would probably retaliate likewise. We probably shouldn't preen ourselves on our moral hindsight.


I don't disagree, I think both sides avoided using chemical weapons in fear the other would.

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Re: Sean Spicer screws up, deniers go wild!!!!!

Postby Xcalibur » Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:15 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Gord wrote:He also said, "We didn't use chemical weapons in WWII...."

No, chemical weapons were never actually "used" by the allies in WWII, but they made them for use and even had them on hand in case they decided to use them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_ ... ern_Allies

And don't forget the John Harvey: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_John_Harvey

In August 1943, Roosevelt approved the shipment of chemical munitions containing mustard agent to the Mediterranean theater. On 18 November 1943 the John Harvey, commanded by Captain Elwin F. Knowles, sailed from Oran, Algeria, to Italy, carrying 2,000 M47A1 mustard gas bombs, each of which held 60–70 lb of sulfur mustard....

...On 2 December 1943 German aircraft attacked Bari, killing over 1,000 people, and sinking 17 ships, including the John Harvey, which was destroyed in a huge explosion, causing liquid sulfur mustard to spill into the water and a cloud of sulfur mustard vapor to blow over the city.
A total of 628 military victims were hospitalized with mustard gas symptoms, and by the end of the month, 83 of them had died. The number of civilian casualties, thought to have been even greater, could not be accurately gauged since most had left the city to seek shelter with relatives.

The allies were prepared to use chemical weapons. Probably the biggest reason invoked at the time to NOT use them was because the Germans would probably retaliate likewise. We probably shouldn't preen ourselves on our moral hindsight.


I don't disagree, I think both sides avoided using chemical weapons in fear the other would.


Apart from Willie Pete... which the US is still using....

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Re: Sean Spicer screws up, deniers go wild!!!!!

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:50 am

If I "became" Spicer before the statement, I would not have used that analysis. If I became Spicer after the statement, I would not have apologized for it but rather let it stand for what I said "exactly" and not what other people take it (further) to mean or not mean. A better defense would be to emphasize the statement is about how "unhinged" Assad is rather than how evil he is. "Even Hitler did not use CW as a battlefield weapon." Quite right in all respects.

Anyone here doubt Assad would gas his enemies if he had them in a closed building?

Anyone here deny that Agent Orange sprayed all over Vietnam/Cambodia border is CW??

Evidently, too many have forgotten that use of the Nukes in Japan "saved" lives. Horrible? Of course. More horrible?===>than what???

I've heard analysis that "Its Impossible" that the proof that Assad used CW is accurate in that Infrared Satelites can only detect the take off of the airplanes potentially carrying CW from their bases and cannot detect their actual use. That makes sense. Don't know if it is true or not, just that "it could be." Of note: Assad has not denied their use. Ha, ha....is he crazy enough to think this gives him an edge in keeping hold of power?

Always, ...... lots of issues. Spicer is incompetent. Turned a half mistake into a full mistake. ............. Yea Team!!!!
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Re: Sean Spicer screws up, deniers go wild!!!!!

Postby Xcalibur » Thu Apr 13, 2017 2:18 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:If I "became" Spicer before the statement, I would not have used that analysis. If I became Spicer after the statement, I would not have apologized for it but rather let it stand for what I said "exactly" and not what other people take it (further) to mean or not mean. A better defense would be to emphasize the statement is about how "unhinged" Assad is rather than how evil he is. "Even Hitler did not use CW as a battlefield weapon." Quite right in all respects.

Anyone here doubt Assad would gas his enemies if he had them in a closed building?

Anyone here deny that Agent Orange sprayed all over Vietnam/Cambodia border is CW??

Evidently, too many have forgotten that use of the Nukes in Japan "saved" lives. Horrible? Of course. More horrible?===>than what???

I've heard analysis that "Its Impossible" that the proof that Assad used CW is accurate in that Infrared Satelites can only detect the take off of the airplanes potentially carrying CW from their bases and cannot detect their actual use. That makes sense. Don't know if it is true or not, just that "it could be." Of note: Assad has not denied their use. Ha, ha....is he crazy enough to think this gives him an edge in keeping hold of power?

Always, ...... lots of issues. Spicer is incompetent. Turned a half mistake into a full mistake. ............. Yea Team!!!!



Spicey is a {!#%@} moron. And we were fairly well agreed consensus-wise that no country has the moral high ground on this subject.

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Re: Sean Spicer screws up, deniers go wild!!!!!

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Apr 13, 2017 3:01 am

Xcalibur wrote:Spicey is a {!#%@} moron.

Yes, that is the obvious and expressed premise we are all using. What's your point?

Xcalibur wrote: And we were fairly well agreed consensus-wise that no country has the moral high ground on this subject.

Ha, ha........every country is a moral equivalent huh? I take the position that its the rare subject that can be so easily homogenized. Sweden is the same as Syria? Is it the Capital "S" that hypnotizes you?
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Re: Sean Spicer screws up, deniers go wild!!!!!

Postby Xcalibur » Thu Apr 13, 2017 4:27 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Xcalibur wrote:Spicey is a {!#%@} moron.

Yes, that is the obvious and expressed premise we are all using. What's your point?

Xcalibur wrote: And we were fairly well agreed consensus-wise that no country has the moral high ground on this subject.

Ha, ha........every country is a moral equivalent huh? I take the position that its the rare subject that can be so easily homogenized. Sweden is the same as Syria? Is it the Capital "S" that hypnotizes you?


Go {!#%@} yourself.

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Re: Sean Spicer screws up, deniers go wild!!!!!

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Apr 13, 2017 8:04 am

Xcalibur wrote:Go {!#%@} yourself.

.... and interrupt your fun?.........Never.
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Re: Sean Spicer screws up, deniers go wild!!!!!

Postby Balsamo » Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:00 pm

Bobbo;

Anyone here doubt Assad would gas his enemies if he had them in a closed building?


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
You use the right word. Doubt. I am not saying it is impossible, but given the gravity of the charge, i think that some evidence should have been presented - and asked by the civil society - to sustain the accusation and the verdict.

Anyone here deny that Agent Orange sprayed all over Vietnam/Cambodia border is CW??

Evidently, too many have forgotten that use of the Nukes in Japan "saved" lives. Horrible? Of course. More horrible?===>than what???

I've heard analysis that "Its Impossible" that the proof that Assad used CW is accurate in that Infrared Satelites can only detect the take off of the airplanes potentially carrying CW from their bases and cannot detect their actual use. That makes sense. Don't know if it is true or not, just that "it could be." Of note: Assad has not denied their use. Ha, ha....is he crazy enough to think this gives him an edge in keeping hold of power?


First question: no.
Second: Well yes, it saved lives of US soldiers. So it was like a swap, it killed hundred thousands civilians in order to save american lives. Fair enough. In addition, a weapon has to be tested at least once (so every parties can see concretely what is at stake). The USA faced no fear of retaliation.

Of course Syria denied the deliberate use of chemical weapons.
Assad being crazy and stupid - which i doubt he is - is basically the only explanation. Had he been on his own in this mess, it could have been possible, but given the implication of Putin, it is not possible as the "stupid and crazy" theory should be extended to him as well.

Anyway, the first step would have been to evaluate the benefits/interests of all possible suspects before pointing out a guilty.
Statmec wrote above:
This potentially ties back to the turn in US policy with Trump's election and more particularly to Tillerson's statement in Turkey about Assad. It is more than plausible that Assad interpreted this as a green light of some sort


The first sentence is the one that is important.
Tillerson stated that the future of Assad would be the responsibility of the Syrian people.
It is important to remember that at first the position of the western allies was:
- Assad has to go before any solution. That is almost similar than asking an unconditional surrender.
Then Russia intervene and changed the situation, and reluctantly the official position became:
- The departure of Assad is not a precondition for a political solution, but is still an essential part of such a solution.
At this stage, there was still no real future for Assad in Syria.

Then, not only Trump is elected, but on the ground, the Syrian army was on a winning strike, retook the main cities, and the rebellion is trapped in various pockets (Kessel). On the ground, the most difficult has been done. The balance of power is clearly in Assad's favor.
In this context, Tillerson's statements is a recognition of Assad's victory, as it really open the prospect of Assad participating to a future election that he could very well win. And even worse for some Parties, it might even suggest a new form of relation ship between the USA and a new Assad regime.

What then are the consequences for the other parties in the conflict?
For Turkey: it is the worst case scenario! Not only Assad stays, but its prospect to somehow be able to occupy the Kurd territories vanishes. The Kurds could easily make a deal with Assad who would concede some form of autonomy - which is what the Kurds wants, and precisely what Turkey does not.

ISIS: if a real cooperation between Russia and the USA is adopted, its complete destruction is a matter of weeks. The recent attacks in Europe have forced the European government to change their policy toward the organization, and to designate it as the principal enemy. They are doomed.

The Rebellion (including Al- Qaeda): trapped in Kessels as said. The only one that is still resisting is the big one at Idlib thanks to its border with Turkey. But then, if the USA leave the scene, what would be the point continuing the mess?


Given that situation, the Sunnite powers behind the scene have lost their leverage and can only admit their defeat, especially given the mess in Yemen.

On the other side of the track, there is IRAN (and the Hezbollah) which can legitimately be angry with Tillerson's Statements. An increase of US influence in a new Syria is exactly what it does not want. Any kind of deal between the USA and Assad would be their worst nightmare.

And then of course there is the Regime and its Russian ally for which Tillerson's Statement is the ultimate achievement.

Here is the latest military map:
Image

Sorry it is large. The Orange color is not Trump's occupied territories, but the Kurds.
So if Assad finds a deal with them, and if the black zone (DAESH) is dealt with by a Russian and American joined effort. You can imagine the new situation.

So Tillerson's Statement was a "game changer" (don't know the expression exists in English).
Who were the losing parties?
TURKEY, AL-QAEDA, the rebellion and IRAN.
Who were the winners?
ASSAD, RUSSIA and the KURDS

Now, we'll have the opposite if the situation turns again in case a real switch in US policy occurs...like following a chemical incident. If the USA decide a real military intervention, i doubt Russia would risk WW3, and Assad could be washed out quite rapidly. Who would profit from it?

Now, i am not pretending holding the truth. But this assessment should have been the first step of the inquiry.

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Re: Sean Spicer screws up, deniers go wild!!!!!

Postby Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Thu Apr 13, 2017 5:41 pm

On the OP news report, I found this useful:

The key phrase spoken by Spicer was “his own people”. Hitler was supposedly not as evil as Bashar al-Assad because Assad killed “his own people”. This is wrong, and not just factually. It is a moral horror. At the moment when the Trump administration declined to commemorate the historical tragedy of the Jews, it was defending its own ban on Muslims. Trump’s very first policy was to pick a group of people, and to stigmatize them as members of a threatening group.

The truth is, Hitler did kill his own people. And the killing began with the disowning. It is precisely the stigmatization and murder of the people who were gassed that removed them from the national community to which they believed they belonged.

Leaders speaking of that past have a duty that goes beyond getting the facts right. They also have a duty to mend and heal by acknowledging the victims in terms that the victims, not the killers, would have understood.

And still there is another, deeper shade of black. As Victor Klemperer, the great student of Nazi language, long ago pointed out, when Nazis spoke of “the people” they always meant “some people”. Spicer has imitated that usage. Some people, our “own people”, are more worthy of life than others.

First, the Nazi regime murdered German citizens. Then, it murdered others. People who learned to disown neighbors also learned to kill foreigners. And all of the murders were equally wrong. The politics of Nazi killing has two steps: creating the other within, and then killing the other without. It all begins with the nefarious distinction Spicer made without even thinking about it: that murder of others is somehow not as bad as the murder of one’s own.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ak-volumes
According to experts and scholars, the 10 stages of every genocide are
Classification Symbolization Discrimination Dehumanization Organization Polarization Preparation Persecution Extermination
... and finally the 10th stage:
Denial
http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocide/t ... ocide.html

XYZ Contagion (‘Because the truth is contagious‘), an investigative/research political and historical website, deals also with the Srebrenica Genocide
https://xyzcontagion.wordpress.com/about/#English

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Re: Sean Spicer screws up, deniers go wild!!!!!

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Apr 13, 2017 8:50 pm

Balsamo wrote:Bobbo;

Anyone here doubt Assad would gas his enemies if he had them in a closed building?


You use the right word. Doubt. I am not saying it is impossible, but given the gravity of the charge, i think that some evidence should have been presented - and asked by the civil society - to sustain the accusation and the verdict.


Any prediction, and any "report" without evidence should always be doubted. Perhaps, not disagreed with, but total belief held for further proof? The distinction perhaps only a quibble.

Its actually "sad" to see the world unite behind Trump because indeed there has been little to no evidence presented. Some claim backtracking satelite imaging showing the jets leaving the bombed airport that supposedly has the CW stocks and flying to the area where the CW attack took place. Anyone can "say" that....but the proof is not evident at several critical points. "In my book" CW is not that big a deal. More than anything else, it marks the user as "crazy" for using such an unpredictable weapon of sparse effect beyond terrorism. "BUT"....if the world does have a knee jerk reaction regarding its use, then acting against it makes sense.

Hmmmm..... too easy "to say" Trump if actually concerned would have been better served to go to the UN. ...... why?.... Months later...Russia and China thinking USA weak...........Ha, ha.........I just talked myself into a first strike myself with the only issue being whether or not and how much warning to give Russia? The attack was 99% symbolic..... looking like the perfect light touch? I don't get why we didn't crater the runway so it was out of action for atleast a few days??? Small issues in the big scheme. No real effect on Assads capabilities, but a big message backed up by Trump's own unpredictability sent to Assad, Russia, China, Iran, North Korea. Ha, ha..........the Big Stick and Vague Crazy Words. A new combo for international relations.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Balsamo wrote:Bobbo;

Evidently, too many have forgotten that use of the Nukes in Japan "saved" lives. Horrible? Of course. More horrible?===>than what???

Second: Well yes, it saved lives of US soldiers. So it was like a swap, it killed hundred thousands civilians in order to save american lives. Fair enough. In addition, a weapon has to be tested at least once (so every parties can see concretely what is at stake). The USA faced no fear of retaliation.


I prefer, at least appreciate, the analysis that the Nukes also saved Japanese lives. You can counterfactual the scenario in many different ways. But certainly if 100k USA lives were saved, many times that Japanese lives were saved as well. The main alt History would be to simply wait for Japan to count its eggs? A few weeks at most....Japan fearful Russia would invade? Few to none USA lives lost just waiting off shore for the end to "peacefully" come. I think that could well have been done......but in the heat of war, a bit retro to even consider it. "They" started it.... playground rules apply.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Balsamo wrote:Of course Syria denied the deliberate use of chemical weapons.
Assad being crazy and stupid - which i doubt he is - is basically the only explanation. Had he been on his own in this mess, it could have been possible, but given the implication of Putin, it is not possible as the "stupid and crazy" theory should be extended to him as well.

Anyway, the first step would have been to evaluate the benefits/interests of all possible suspects before pointing out a guilty.


Yes, I've now seen that. I have also heard reports that Assad has used CW almost constantly for the last 3 years. Always small attacks making this one an exception......but maybe its all media driven? I haven't followed this issue. Have also heard a small CW has been made after the Trump Response. Why would Assad do CW if he was not crazy and stupid? I can "imagine" reasons, but that is all it would be. Crazy and Stupid while "winning" and having the conflict go his way===>keep doing what is working.....except....if he's been doing CW all along, then that is what he did. I wouldn't use CW myself as the weapon is too imprecise and can blow back on your own troops. That has to have happened???? ....... Not good for moral.

I'd finish......but I have to get my trash to the street................
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Re: Sean Spicer screws up, deniers go wild!!!!!

Postby Balsamo » Thu Apr 13, 2017 9:49 pm

Bobbo:

I have also heard reports that Assad has used CW almost constantly for the last 3 years.
ç

Reports that he did?
or
Reports that proves he did it?

If there are evidences, it is about time to provide the truth, and even to start a serious prosecution.
Again, my vocation is not to be Bashar's lawyer, but to ask that if important decisions that will affect the lives and future of millions are taken upon such reports, i ask that evidence to be shown.
My worry is not only that no one seems to consider the need to provide evidence as important, it is only that the civil society - and especially the media - seems so lethargic about it, and that the importance of such matters - again given the consequences - does not seem to disturb the broad public very much.
That is about it.

Granted, not much of the broad public realizes the extent and the consequences of Trump calling Assad "the Butcher", that it means most probably few more years of war in Syria, a few more years of migrants crisis for Europe, more terrorist attacks. a real risk that it degenerates into a conflict more important.
I don't know if it is Trump or people behind him, but they neither seems to have the slightest idea of the consequences of this political turn.

Trump might think he can fool the Chinese with his bloody palace and a chocolate cake, well...it does not bore well for the future.

But sadistically, it will be interesting how things develops from here. If the strikes were just a bluff, well then, the USA would just have missed an opportunity to count in the post war settlements - that is in the less bloody way. If it chose to be active and duplicate a Libyan scenario, then we are for a terrifying unleash of next generation terrorism, and we are all doomed with a flood of new anti-terrorist laws, more chaotic war against terror all around, well a nice future.
If Syria becomes a Libya, the we'll have the Turks hunting down the kurds, the Sunnites militias as well as Al-Qaeda related ones hunting down all the national minorities over there, around 10.000.000 people, Russia would certainly feel free to launch its own "war against terror", especially against the terrorists too close to its naval bases in the Mediterranean sea...A lot of nice and joyful perspectives.

So this prospect very well deserved to be justify by solid proofs, don't you think?

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Re: Sean Spicer screws up, deniers go wild!!!!!

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Apr 14, 2017 12:37 am

Balsamo wrote: So this prospect very well deserved to be justify by solid proofs, don't you think?

No...actually, I don't. Proof of what? For what purpose and end? some kind of unexpressed desire for morality???

In what is very cogently called: "The Problem from Hell."

to me, CW is just another weapon. There is no need to prove its use as CW doesn't ((IN MY VIEW)) add or subtract to the equation. The equation is: What do we want -minus- what can we do/over/What will it cost us in $$ and men? THEN: alternatives.... and the same equation applied. THEN: compare and contrast.

In My View: nothing in the middle east gives a positive value to that equation. We should let the powers engaged throw sand at each other. "Build a Wall" around the ME and let them rot.

Ha, ha.......The Problem fr Hell........the ANSWER just occurred to me: is simply to be avoided. "Leave it Alone"/Get away. As said in Monty Python: "Run Away!!!!" Even just sticking your toe in is bad. I've had ingrown toe nails. Easy to belittle, until you get one.

................................. the missile attack "should be" a message. Sadly, I don't think Trump has any idea of what. More missiles next time?? More important targets next time??? How about just constant missile attacks where ever we think Assad himself might be???? Why not personally target the Head Bad Guy???? I see a lot of pro's to that policy...but it is Oh so rarely used....and then apologized for (Kadaffi?).

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Re: Sean Spicer screws up, deniers go wild!!!!!

Postby Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:48 am

Five cases so far:
- A brief history of the Trump administration’s flirtation with Holocaust denial
Spicer’s claim that Hitler didn’t use chemical weapons wasn’t a one-off gaffe.
http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/ ... ean-spicer

But after all, it may be a good thing in the end:
- 'What kind of schooling did Sean Spicer go through that allowed him to have such ignorance about the Holocaust, and what kind of social circles has he hung around as an adult where the Holocaust has never been mentioned?' he says.
'He got so many basic facts wrong, that beyond my being appalled that this man could serve as press secretary...I wept at his ignorance and what it says about our country,' he adds, calling Spicer a 'tragic symptom of the lack of Holocaust education in the United States of America'.

- “Teaching people about the Holocaust and genocide is just as important as reading, writing and arithmetic,” Goldstein says, and “knowing about the Holocaust and how to prevent genocide should be part of the moral fiber of our educational system in America.” The fact that fewer than one-fifth of U.S. states require these topics be taught is “pathetic” and a “disgrace,” he says. “The solution is nationally mandated Holocaust education. Let me make this clear: Not just Holocaust education but genocide education.” He believes there needs to be a binding law, and since education is under the purview of the states, that the goal should be accomplished by tying the requirement to federal aid. He can’t see such a mandate passing under the Trump administration, but “that’s the answer.”
http://www.newsweek.com/how-sean-spicer ... ion-583339
According to experts and scholars, the 10 stages of every genocide are
Classification Symbolization Discrimination Dehumanization Organization Polarization Preparation Persecution Extermination
... and finally the 10th stage:
Denial
http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocide/t ... ocide.html

XYZ Contagion (‘Because the truth is contagious‘), an investigative/research political and historical website, deals also with the Srebrenica Genocide
https://xyzcontagion.wordpress.com/about/#English

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Re: Sean Spicer screws up, deniers go wild!!!!!

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Apr 14, 2017 12:05 pm

The ADL has volunteered to provide remedial instruction to Sphincter and any other members the current White House staff who'd benefit.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Sean Spicer screws up, deniers go wild!!!!!

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Apr 14, 2017 12:27 pm

:lol:
The thought of the (((ADL))) teaching the Holocaust to members of the White House will cause been-there and Jim Rizoli to have a stroke.

I say send'em up to the White House.

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Re: Sean Spicer screws up, deniers go wild!!!!!

Postby Gord » Fri Apr 14, 2017 12:52 pm

Kleon_I XYZ Contagion wrote:
...As Victor Klemperer, the great student of Nazi language, long ago pointed out....

Didn't he play Colonel Klink on Hogan's Heroes?

Image

"Hogannnn!" :shakefist:
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"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
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Re: Sean Spicer screws up, deniers go wild!!!!!

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Apr 14, 2017 1:01 pm

Gord wrote:
Kleon_I XYZ Contagion wrote:
...As Victor Klemperer, the great student of Nazi language, long ago pointed out....

Didn't he play Colonel Klink on Hogan's Heroes?

Image

"Hogannnn!" :shakefist:

Close but no cigar, that was Werner Klemperer, the son of Victor's cousin, Otto Klemperer, the famous conductor. All in the family.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Sean Spicer screws up, deniers go wild!!!!!

Postby Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Sun Apr 16, 2017 10:30 am

- White House Press Secretary Sean Spicer (Melissa McCarthy) apologizes for his comments about Hitler.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RvfzFv3c6Y
According to experts and scholars, the 10 stages of every genocide are
Classification Symbolization Discrimination Dehumanization Organization Polarization Preparation Persecution Extermination
... and finally the 10th stage:
Denial
http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocide/t ... ocide.html

XYZ Contagion (‘Because the truth is contagious‘), an investigative/research political and historical website, deals also with the Srebrenica Genocide
https://xyzcontagion.wordpress.com/about/#English

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Re: Sean Spicer screws up, deniers go wild!!!!!

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Apr 16, 2017 12:10 pm

Kleon_I XYZ Contagion wrote:- White House Press Secretary Sean Spicer (Melissa McCarthy) apologizes for his comments about Hitler.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RvfzFv3c6Y

"concentration clubs" LOL "every little slur . . ." LOL (thanks!)
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Sean Spicer screws up, deniers go wild!!!!!

Postby Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:48 pm

I've laughed a lot also hearing Spicy's 'inner voice' :)

- Jimmy Kimmel Reveals Sean Spicer’s Painful Inner Monologue During His Hitler Disaster 4/11/17
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fdngKcn-AY


And this one, Spicer makes a statement to fix the statement which fixed the statement:
- John Oliver - Sean Spicer's Statements
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fE_eoKMGt_k
According to experts and scholars, the 10 stages of every genocide are
Classification Symbolization Discrimination Dehumanization Organization Polarization Preparation Persecution Extermination
... and finally the 10th stage:
Denial
http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocide/t ... ocide.html

XYZ Contagion (‘Because the truth is contagious‘), an investigative/research political and historical website, deals also with the Srebrenica Genocide
https://xyzcontagion.wordpress.com/about/#English

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Re: Sean Spicer screws up, deniers go wild!!!!!

Postby Gord » Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:12 am

Kleon_I XYZ Contagion wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fE_eoKMGt_k

Ugh, that youtuber is a lunatic. He's a follower of Alex Jones: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOHsz-ycLrU&t=283s

He believes Sandy Hook was a false flag attack. :roll:

Why he keeps posting John Oliver clips, I do not know. Unless he's trying to attract people he disagrees with for some ulterior motive which just completely escapes me at the moment.
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
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Re: Sean Spicer screws up, deniers go wild!!!!!

Postby Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:26 am

According to experts and scholars, the 10 stages of every genocide are
Classification Symbolization Discrimination Dehumanization Organization Polarization Preparation Persecution Extermination
... and finally the 10th stage:
Denial
http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocide/t ... ocide.html

XYZ Contagion (‘Because the truth is contagious‘), an investigative/research political and historical website, deals also with the Srebrenica Genocide
https://xyzcontagion.wordpress.com/about/#English

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Re: Sean Spicer screws up, deniers go wild!!!!!

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Apr 24, 2017 11:29 am

Kleon_I XYZ Contagion wrote:Trump Will Speak At Holocaust Museum on Tuesday:

https://www.romper.com/p/trump-will-spe ... ffes-53099

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the ... -ceremony/



Oh, can't wait for this. I can't imagine what will go wrong.

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Re: Sean Spicer screws up, deniers go wild!!!!!

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Apr 24, 2017 11:35 am

In a video message Trump yesterday mentioned the sacred 6 million ("Six million Jews, two-thirds of the Jews in Europe, murdered by the Nazi genocide. They were murdered by an evil that words cannot describe and that the human heart cannot bear.”). Perhaps Mr Fish-Hazard will explain to us that the so-called president been taken hostage by the (((globalists))), brainwashed and threatened, and forced to say what (((they))) want him to say. Is there any other viable explanation?
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Sean Spicer screws up, deniers go wild!!!!!

Postby Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Mon Apr 24, 2017 1:32 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:In a video message Trump yesterday mentioned the sacred 6 million ("Six million Jews, two-thirds of the Jews in Europe, murdered by the Nazi genocide. They were murdered by an evil that words cannot describe and that the human heart cannot bear.”). Perhaps Mr Fish-Hazard will explain to us that the so-called president been taken hostage by the (((globalists))), brainwashed and threatened, and forced to say what (((they))) want him to say. Is there any other viable explanation?


This is what David Duke ad his Alt-Right guests claim since April 6th. A large part of all these neonazi Alt-Right scumbags, too. That there was a coup d' etat in the White House, lead by Jared, kind of 'globalists vs nationalists' (Bannon etc) and the Jews won and (((they))) hold the President hostage now.
According to experts and scholars, the 10 stages of every genocide are
Classification Symbolization Discrimination Dehumanization Organization Polarization Preparation Persecution Extermination
... and finally the 10th stage:
Denial
http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocide/t ... ocide.html

XYZ Contagion (‘Because the truth is contagious‘), an investigative/research political and historical website, deals also with the Srebrenica Genocide
https://xyzcontagion.wordpress.com/about/#English

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Re: Sean Spicer screws up, deniers go wild!!!!!

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Apr 24, 2017 7:12 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Kleon_I XYZ Contagion wrote:Trump Will Speak At Holocaust Museum on Tuesday:

https://www.romper.com/p/trump-will-spe ... ffes-53099

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the ... -ceremony/



Oh, can't wait for this. I can't imagine what will go wrong.



On a related note, Trump names Howard Lorber to Holocaust council.

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/04/24/howard-lorber-us-holocaust-memorial-council-trump-237528

This is what that actually is:

https://www.ushmm.org/information/about-the-museum/council

I didn't know much about that until this story popped up. I thought Timothy Snyder was a member but I didn't see his name in my run through of members, so, I might be mistaken. Deborah Lipstadt is a member.

The most interesting thing about that is this blurb:

Expect a carefully scripted speech by POTUS,” said the transition official, who asked to remain anonymous in order to discuss the plans freely. “He is going to stick to the script.”


That's probably best for everyone involved. Left to his own devices Trump would ramble on about the biggest electoral victory in history, fake news, the fight against ISIS and the Mother of All Bombs, followed by a lecture about Holocaust centers.

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Re: Sean Spicer screws up, deniers go wild!!!!!

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:14 pm

Checking in on Sphincter today, I had the weird sensation that these daily briefings are more like theater than anything. Spicey doesn't answer questions or provide insights. It's a kind of ritualistic insulting and flaying of the Dishonest Media, a punishment session they show up for and participate in. Somehow they seem as much the problem as the White House.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Sean Spicer screws up, deniers go wild!!!!!

Postby BRoI » Tue Apr 25, 2017 4:00 pm

Image
"... these witnesses would swear to anything if it gets the Germans killed."
- Solomon Surowitz, Assistant Prosecutor at the 1947 Buchenwald trial.

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Re: Sean Spicer screws up, deniers go wild!!!!!

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Apr 25, 2017 4:02 pm

:lol:


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