Dachau: Confessions obtained thru torture

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Dachau: Confessions obtained thru torture

Postby BRoI » Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:13 pm

On this thread I'm going to post some of the allegations about torture, beatings, and false confessions made by the defendants at the US military trials held at Dachau.

First up, that of the chief Gestapo agent at Dachau, Johann Georg Kick.

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Q [by defence counsel]. Kick, did the treatment which you received following... immediately following your arrest have any influence whatsoever on the statements that you made on 5th November.

Prosecution: I object to that question many it please the court on the same grounds assigned to the previous question.

President: The objection is overruled, the witness will answer the question.

A. The treatment at that time influenced this testimony to that extent, that I did not dare to refuse to sign, in spite of the fact that it did not contain the testimony which I gave.

Q. Now, Kick, for the court, will you describe the treatment which you received, immediately following your arrest?

A. I ask to refuse to answer this question here in public.

President: The court desires to have him answer the question.

A. I was here in Dachau from the 6th to the 15th of May, under arrest; during this time I was beaten all during the day and the night....kicked....I had to stand at attention for hours; I had to stand under the lamp for hours and look into the light, at which time I was also beaten and kicked; as a result of this treatment my arm was paralyzed for about 8 to 10 weeks; only beginning with my transfer to Augsberg [sic], this treatment stopped.

Q. What were you beaten with?

A. With all kinds of objects.

Q. Describe them please.

A. With whips....with lashing whips, with rifle butts....pistol butts, and pistol barrels and with hands and fists.

Q. And that continued daily over a period of what time?

A. From the morning of the 7th of May until the morning of the 15th of May.

Q. Kick, why did you hesitate to give that testimony?

A. If the court hadn't decided I should talk about it, I wouldn't have said anything about it today.

Q. Would you describe the people who administered these beatings to you?

A. I can only say that they were persons who were wearing the United States uniform and I can't describe them any better.

Q. And as a result of those beatings when Lieutenant Guth called you in, what was your frame of mind?

A. I had to presume that if I were to refuse to sign I would be subjected to a similar treatment.
- US vs. G. Weiss et al., 1st December 1945, Vol. 5, pp.368-369.
"... these witnesses would swear to anything if it gets the Germans killed."
- Solomon Surowitz, Assistant Prosecutor at the 1947 Buchenwald trial.

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Re: Dachau: Confessions obtained thru torture

Postby BRoI » Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:41 pm

Dr. Wilhelm Anton Witteler, chief physician of KL Dachau and its subcamps 01.01.44 - 20.08.44

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Q [defence counsel]. Now, doctor, Dr. Blaha also testified that the hospital in 1944 was completely overcrowded and that four patients had been placed in one bed. What do you have to say about that?

A. I can only talk about the time I was there from January 1944 to August 1944. The hospital was occupied by 15 to 17 hundred patients. There were nine blocks in the hospital. At that time I had twenty percent single and eight [eighty?] percent double beds, so every prisoner had his own bed. Furthermore, I can't imagine how four people could _lie in one bed—that is technically impossible.

Q [defence counsel]. Dr. Witteler, when did you come to Dachau this last time?

A. On 4 November 1945

Q. And where did you come from?

A. I came as a patient from the prisoner hospital of Mergentheim.

Q. How long were you there?

A. Two months

Q. What time of the day was it that you left Mergentheim?

A. At 8 o'clock in the morning. I left on the truck to an unknown destination

Q. What time of the day did you arrive in Dachau?

A. I arrived in Dachau towards five thirty

Q. During the day, from 8 o'clock until 5:30, did you have anything to eat?

A. No

Q. When you arrived in Dachau on the evening of 4 November 1945, where dd you go?

A. To the bunker. There the valuables which had been taken away from me in May were given to me and thereupon I was told "Give me those things again and follow the guard." I asked what was the matter and I was told I would see. Thereupon, I was put on a closed truck which made a terrible impression on me and the trip went in the direction of the crematory. I figured on an execution, but I was sent from this vicinity and was sent to Lt. Guth.

Q. What tine did you get to Lt. Guth's office?

A. At 6 o'clock

Q. Did you receive anything to eat yet?

A. No

Q. Did you tell that to anybody?

A. Yes, in the bunker and also on the trip I told the guard

Q. You arrived before Lt. Guth. Did you tell him you came from the hospital?

A. No

Q. Did you tell him, at any time during the interrogation, that you had just come out of the hospital?

A. No

Q. How long were you interrogated by Lt. Guth?

A. Until 1:30 in the morning

Q. During that period of time, did you have anything to eat at all?

A. No

Q. I show you here Prosecution's Exhibit No. 94, consisting of a page and a half of typewritten testimony and ask you what that is?

A. That is a statement

Q. Is that the statement you made of seven hours of interrogation?

A. It must be

Q. There is handwriting on the top of page 1. Is that your handwriting?

A. No

Q. Will you take a look on page 2. Did you make the correction on the 3rd line?

A. Yes

Q. This handwriting at the bottom of page 2. Is that your handwriting?

A. I would like to explain to the court.

Q. Will you do that?

A. During my interrogation I had to sit in front of the desk of Lt. Guth. A spotlight was turned on me which was stand [stood?] on the desk. Lt. Guth stood behind the spotlight and the interrogation started: "We know you, we have the necessary records about you. You worked with Professor Schilling and Rausch [Rascher]. You had malaria cases lying in your ward." I wanted to make an explanation. I was immediately stopped. I was yelled at. He called me a swine, criminal, liar, murderer and that is the way the interrogation continued. I couldn't give any explanations. I was only told to answer "yes" or "no".

Q. Just a minute. Would you demonstrate for the benefit of the court, as you have demonstrated for me the manner in which you were required to answer "yes" or "no"?

A. You worked together with Professor Schilling, "yes" or "no"? No, was my answer. Dr. Blaha says that the malaria patients were put into the medical ward, "yes" or "no"? I said, "I don't know about it." I said, "It can be possible." It is possible that in a case where complications set in the malaria patient would be transferred to a medical ward. But I couldn't even explain that. I was interrupted immediately and told that all I was to do was answer "yes" or "no". He said, "There are various cases that are put in the malaria ward. I said, "It could be only one case." I couldn't even explain it. I was told to shut up and to answer "yes" or "no". But I didn't even got to say that it might be only one case. When there was a pause that existed, I could neither say "yes" or "no". Thereupon, I had to give a binding statement—or answer—"yes" or "no", and since it was not like he thought it was, I had to get up and stand. So I stood up until 1:30 in the morning—seven hours.

Q. How long did you stand to answer these questions?

A. I stood up about seven hours

Q. At the conclusion of the drafting of this statement you signed it?

A. No, I answered that it is not correct what is written about Professor Schilling. This statement was not written in my presence. It was written in another room. The reporter was with me in the room all the time, but the statement was written in another room. After I couldn't stand up any more this statement was put in front of me at 1:30. And then when I said that this testimony about Professor Schilling is not by me, that it is the testimony of Dr. Blaha, who was present for various hours that night and who told me that is the way the circumstances are, that so many malaria autopsies had been carried out, and I don't know about a single case of death, so I didn't want to sign it. Lt. Guth said he would interrogate me until tomorrow morning, that he had other methods, that he would have a battalion of SS men pass by, who would walk by and spit at me

Q. How many people were present at the time you were interrogated?

A. Altogether, three: Lt Guth, Dr. Leiss and I, and, for a short time, Dr. Blaha.

Q. This handwriting in [is?] your own handwriting. Was that dictated or did you make it up?

A. When I found out that the interrogation would end that way, I wrote down this last part and signed my name to it

Q. Was it your own words or was it dictated to you?

A. Lt. Guth dictated those words

Q. After 7½ hours you got 1½ pages of the statement?

A. It was almost all concerned with the experimental station of Professor Schilling and Dr. Rascher. I never had anything to do with it. Before I came to Dachau I had the order of Lolling that I had no influence with the malaria station and that it was in charge of Professor Schilling and he is only under the Reichsfuhrer. I had nothing to do with it and I was not to impede him in any manner. I was very much interested in getting Professor Schilling out of the hospital. If one case of death occurred, I would have had the opportunity to get Professor Schilling out of the hospital. Dr. Rausch [Rascher] didn't make any more experiments at that time. He was a few times in any hospital and was arrested in 1944.

Q. Prior to the time that you signed that statement, had you been served with any papers in this particular case?

A. No, I didn't know why I was in Dachau. I had no idea I was one of the accused. After the interrogation at 1:30 I was sent to the colonel and the colonel then read the charge to me. The first time I heard I was supposed to be a murderer, was then

Q. You mean Colonel Denson read the charges to you?

A. Yes
- US vs. G. Weiss et al., 4th December 1945, Vol. 6, pp.155-161.
[edit: typo]
Last edited by BRoI on Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"... these witnesses would swear to anything if it gets the Germans killed."
- Solomon Surowitz, Assistant Prosecutor at the 1947 Buchenwald trial.

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Re: Dachau: Confessions obtained thru torture

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:53 pm

All of this is very interesting, Rabbit. Is there a point?

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Re: Dachau: Confessions obtained thru torture

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:04 pm

Why don't you give us some background, more information about the trials themselves, a timeline, etc. I'm willing to read what you have to say but I would appreciate some context along with these tales of woe and torture.

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Re: Dachau: Confessions obtained thru torture

Postby BRoI » Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:33 pm

Currently I'm working through the allegations made at the first, the big, Dachau trial:
https://www.archives.gov/files/research/captured-german-records/microfilm/m1174.pdf

See "CASE NO. 60", p.6f:
https://www.loc.gov/rr/frd/Military_Law/pdf/Law-Reports_Vol-11.pdf
"... these witnesses would swear to anything if it gets the Germans killed."
- Solomon Surowitz, Assistant Prosecutor at the 1947 Buchenwald trial.

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Re: Dachau: Confessions obtained thru torture

Postby Xcalibur » Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:30 am

Okay, so the point here is a compilation of those claims or on a a case by case basis inquiry into their veracity?

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Re: Dachau: Confessions obtained thru torture

Postby Mary Q Contrary » Wed Apr 12, 2017 6:45 am

I have yet to see any trial testimony where a defendant uses the word 'torture' to describe his treatment. Ergo, no defendants were tortured. Besides, they didn't need to be tortured. Every German who was questioned by any allied personnel were more than happy to relieve the burden of guilt for what they had done to the poor Jews by telling their captors every state secret they knew.
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Re: Dachau: Confessions obtained thru torture

Postby BRoI » Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:37 pm

Xcalibur wrote:Okay, so the point here is a compilation of those claims or on a a case by case basis inquiry into their veracity?

A compilation of the claims made by the defendants whilst in the dock.
"... these witnesses would swear to anything if it gets the Germans killed."
- Solomon Surowitz, Assistant Prosecutor at the 1947 Buchenwald trial.

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Re: Dachau: Confessions obtained thru torture

Postby BRoI » Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:41 pm

Alfred Kramer, office clerk. Posted to Dachau in mid-August 1944, worked at the sub-camp of Kaufering 08.09.44 - 12.11.44, then returned to Dachau.

Q. [defence counsel] Kramer, were you interrogated after your arrest anywhere except Dachau?

A. Yes, Fuerstenfeldbruck.

Q. Did that interrogation have any effect on the statement that you made here?

Prosecution: I object to that question as being immaterial and irrelevant.

President: Explain exactly what happened

Q. Will you explain exactly what happened at that interrogation?

A. I do not want to talk about it

Q. The court desires you explain what happened?

A. I was beaten by an interrogation officer from the CIC. Present were former prisoners. I was supposed to tell how many people I had shot and hanged. I can say with a conscience that I never killed a person. Thereupon, I was beaten over the head with sticks and rubber hoses until I broke down.

Q. Anything else to say about that?

A. No
- US vs. G. Weiss et al., 4th December 1945, Vol. 6, pp.128-129
Q. Kramer, do you know what this is?

A. It is questions

Q. Whose questions are they?

A. My questions

Q. Is that Your own handwriting?

A. Yes

Q. Will you read the last two questions to the court

Prosecution: I object to this kind of questioning on the grounds that it is immaterial

President: What is the reason?

Defense: The defendant requested that I ask those questions in court which is in his handwriting.

President: What is the purpose in introducing it?

Defense: To prove that those are the questions that he wanted me to ask him in court.

President: We see no reason for that line of questioning.

Defense: Kramer, were you present during the evacuation of Camp No. 1 [Kaufering]?

A. No

Defense: No further questions

Prosecution: No questions [re-cross examination]

EXAMINATION BY THE COURT

Questions by a Member of the Court.

Q. Whereabouts was this that you were questioned in Fuerstenfeldbruck?

A. At the Air Corps Base close to the camp

Q. What date were you questioned?

A. On 11 June 1945

Q. You mean in a camp where they had all the prisoners enclosed in barbed wire?

A. No, I was taken out to the Air Corps Base to a room

Q. How long mere you kept there?

A. From three in the afternoon until ten or ten-thirty at night

Q. Who was the CIC officer that questioned you?

A. I don't know

Member of the Court: That is all

President: The witness is excused
- Ibid., pp.133-134
"... these witnesses would swear to anything if it gets the Germans killed."
- Solomon Surowitz, Assistant Prosecutor at the 1947 Buchenwald trial.

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Re: Dachau: Confessions obtained thru torture

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Apr 13, 2017 4:40 am

Mary Q Contrary wrote:I have yet to see any trial testimony where a defendant uses the word 'torture' to describe his treatment.
Did it occur to you, as a general rule, that Germans speak German? :roll:

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Re: Dachau: Confessions obtained thru torture

Postby BRoI » Thu Apr 13, 2017 4:54 pm

Dr. Fritz Hintermayer, physician at KL Dachau March 1944 - 01.10.44, chief physician from 01.10.44 to liberation.

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Q. Have you ever been afflicted with Saint Vitus dance?

A. Yes.

Q. When?

A. As a child of twelve years.

[...]

Q. Do you have any further ailments that you wish to tell the court about?

A. Yes.

Q. Will you tell of them?

A. Since my injury in Moosburg [Civilian Internment Camp no. 6], I was strangulated at my throat at that time, and since that beating on Fuerstenfeldbruck, where I was beaten unconscious, I have difficulties in thinking. I have headaches.

Q. How frequent are these headaches?

A. At the time being, I really have it all the time.
- US vs. G. Weiss et al., 7 December 1945, vol 6, pp.484-485.

EXAMINATION BY THE COURT

Q. You say you were beaten over at Moosburg?

A. That was in the middle of August.

Q. Who beat you over there?

A. That was on the occasion of an interrogation by the CIC, and former prisoners were present.

Q. When did you join the Allgemeine SS?

A. I am not a member of the Allgemeine SS.

There being no further questions, the witness was excused and resumed his seat in court.
- US vs. G. Weiss et al., 8 December 1945, vol 7, p.22.
"... these witnesses would swear to anything if it gets the Germans killed."
- Solomon Surowitz, Assistant Prosecutor at the 1947 Buchenwald trial.

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Re: Dachau: Confessions obtained thru torture

Postby Xcalibur » Fri Apr 14, 2017 3:44 am

Which might be the most "so what" testimony in the history of US juris prudence.

Next...

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Re: Dachau: Confessions obtained thru torture

Postby Denying-History » Fri Apr 14, 2017 4:04 am

Got it... they were beaten, which is mistreatment. Got anything along the lines of NKVD torture? If so then I am happy to listen.

If you are looking for torture methods of the NKVD see Conquest "The Great Terror", 2008 page 121 or Applebaum "Gulag: a history" 2003 page 131-145.
« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
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Re: Dachau: Confessions obtained thru torture

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Apr 14, 2017 4:15 am

I've read Applebaum, not Conquest.

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Re: Dachau: Confessions obtained thru torture

Postby Denying-History » Fri Apr 14, 2017 4:29 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:I've read Applebaum, not Conquest.
Applebaum's pretty good, though her study is based mainly on memories. Though I can say her work paints a very chilling image of the Soviet Gulag and the torture methods used against Prisoners. The Soviet's cold room method of freezing a person into constantly shifting from sleep to movement. She sadly still cites Conquests "The Harvest of Sorrows" saying it was the most indepth study of the famine

Conquest however is a bit more revealing in his book showing those whom were victims to torture during the great purge suffered greatly. He highlights some rather grotesque things that make Hoess's beatings appear like child's play.
« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
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Re: Dachau: Confessions obtained thru torture

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Apr 14, 2017 1:17 pm

not an area I've researched but dropping some stuff I've read about the topic, and which may be of interest, here:

"The Malmedy Trial and the Myth of Confessions extracted under Torture" with criticism from Sergey Romanov

"137 Crushed Lies, or Why Denial Is Beyond Repair" - blog piece by Sergey Romanov on crushed testicles - Remy (The Malmedy Massacre: The War Crimes Trial Controversy) reaches conclusions similar to Sergey's, and in Heberer & Mattaus, Atrocities on Trial, Yanai has a very brief discussion of the general charges investigated by the Simpson Commission which argues that the investigations of "misconduct did not find substantial wrongdoing on the part of the Army" and that accusations were mostly a defense strategy

U.S. Senate Malmedy investigation report

I can't conjure this up fully but the worst Allied abuse connected with Dachau camp in particular was the shooting of dozens of SS men by American troops who'd entered the camp, estimates ranging from dozens to 100s. Some of the victims were in the act of surrendering IIRC (white flag and all). Some were machine gunned to death, some shot in the head, and some turned over to the ex-prisoners. Likely among the victims were men literally assigned to Dachau in the very last weeks and days of the war. These murders were pure vengeance actions and not connected with allegations of torture/abuse to extract confessions or related to any legal proceeding.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Sat Apr 15, 2017 10:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Dachau: Confessions obtained thru torture

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Apr 14, 2017 2:02 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:I can't conjure this up fully but the worst Allied abuse connected with Dachau camp in particular was the shooting of dozens of SS men by American troops who'd entered the camp, estimates ranging from dozens to 100s. Some of the victims were in the act of surrendering IIRC (white flag and all). Some were machine gunned to death, some shot in the head, and some turned over to the ex-prisoners. Likely among the victims were men literally assigned to Dachau in the very last weeks and days of the war. These murders were pure vengeance actions and not connected with allegations of torture/abuse to extract confessions or related to any legal proceeding.


Here is more on that:

https://www.google.com/amp/www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/revealed-allied-soldiers-massacred-nazi-5725805.amp

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3088025/How-American-doctor-witnessed-Dachau-s-SS-guards-tortured-shot-dead-GIs-cold-blood-coming.html

Patton dismissed the charges against these men.

Frankly, the whole thing is appalling, the soldiers should have been prosecuted for war crimes.

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Re: Dachau: Confessions obtained thru torture

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Apr 14, 2017 3:24 pm

Your wording is better than mine, sorry about that, it was more than "abuse" and that is what I was trying to say in my vacuous last sentence: those killings were an atrocity, they should have been prosecuted as mass murder (war crimes).
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Dachau: Confessions obtained thru torture

Postby BRoI » Fri Apr 14, 2017 6:43 pm

One from the Buchenwald trial aka The First Lampshades trial

Heinrich Otto Barnewald, Chief Administrator of Buchenwald 28.01.42 - 11.04.45.

Q [defence counsel]. Mr. Barnewald, please explain to the court now how the difference in your statements and in your testimony before the court came about.

A. The interrogations partly had a bitter taste. I was supposed to be interrogated in Oberursal [Oberursel; at Camp King nee "Dulag Luft"] . There for 12 days I was looked up in a small room, naked, without fresh air, without windows, which was closed up air-tight, with three large electric heaters which were going day and night. The first three days in the morning one received half a cup of water and in the evening half a slice of bread, and there I was taken out for interrogation after one had taken off the chains to which I was chained to my comrade.

Q. Who was this comrade?

A. Schobert.

Q. Please continue.

A. There I was questioned about zu Waldeck and various other persons, the names of whom I do not remember any more. I fainted during the interrogation. After this I received every hour a cold water shower and beatings with whips and all possible instruments. I point again to the fact that we were naked. Eight days later we were taken to the water for the first time, but not for drinking purposes, only for a shower, in order to shave. That was one interrogation.

Q. Please describe now the interrogation in Freising.

A. The interrogation in Freising was less dangerous. We were locked up together with nine men in a smell cell without any heating facilities, without anything. We got a kettle with food into the cell, without blankets in between the interrogation. The men who went into this room before me came out bleeding. I was not beaten. I was only threatened. In another place one had to dig his own grave after this interrogation.

Q. Mr. Barnewald, do I understate: you right that by this you want to explain some contradictions contained in your statements and in your testimony here before the court?

A. Yes.

Q. Mr. Barnewald, before the evacuation of April 11, 1945, was the food properly cooked in the kitchen so that the food rations were sufficient for tho prisoners or nor?

A. Even on the 11th of April the food was cooked properly and I used all existing possibilities in order to give the prisoners what could he given to them. If men were brought to camp during the past few weeks to were very much undernourished, this was not my fault, I couldn't help that.

DR. WACKER: No further questions.

PROSECUTION: I would like to ask a few more questions, may it please the court.

RECROSS EXAMINATION

QUESTIONS BY PROSECUTION:

Q You were beaten at Oberursal, is that the place?

A. All the time, yes. We were specially brought to Oberursal and were brought there right away, to the so-called "sweating" roam and the next day we were taken away again.

Q. Just answer my questions. You were beaten with whips, is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. How badly were you beaten with those whips?

A. I was badly beaten.

Q. Did the blood come?

A. Yes. Deliberately we were pushed with our bodies against the hot electric heaters so that my back and the end of my back were burned. I would like you to question Dr. Bender about that because in addition to our sweating treatment he received a special treatment.

Q. From how many places on your back did the blood come?

A. From the end of my back.

Q. From how many places?

A. I don't know.

Q. Do you have any scars on your back today?

A. I did not see them yet but Dr. Bender can testify about that as a physician.

Q. Were you told by Dr. Bender that you had any scars on your back from the beatings with the whip?

A. I didn't show my back to him and we didn't talk about the same. Dr. Bender was in another different cell.

Q. Then you do not know whether you have any soars on your back at the present time or not, is that correct?

A. No, I don't know that.
- US vs Josias Prince zu Waldeck et al, 15 July 1947, pp.4041-4043.

Barnewald must have been locked in the infamous "sweat box" of "Dulag Luft", a room that featured prominently in the British-run Nov-Dec 1945 trial of Erich Walter Killinger et al.

The US Army were using the room to torture prisoners despite the fact that the nazis had eventually banned use of it for interrogations, and the British had recently tried and convicted several Germans for having used "heat torture, among other things, as a method of extracting information" in the very same room.

Image

Nach der Niederschrift des Kriegsverbrecherprozesses von Killinger im Jahr 1945 gab es dreizehn konkrete Vorfälle, in denen RAF Kriegsgefangene zu Verhörzwecken in einem kleinen Raum eingesperrt wurden, in dem die Temperatur sehr hoch gehalten wurde. Die Zeiträume, in denen die Kriegsgefangenen diesen extremen Temperaturen ausgesetzt waren, reichten von einer bis zehn Stunden.[14] Diesem Zustand wurden die Kriegsgefangenen jeweils einmal ausgesetzt. Von den dreizehn Fällen wurden schließlich elf zur Anklage gebracht. Zehn betrafen den Sommer 1943 und eine den Sommer 1944. Es gab demnach keine Aussagen darüber, wie hoch die Temperatur gewesen war. US-amerikanischen Kriegsgefangenen wurden dieser Behandlung nicht ausgesetzt. Nach Angaben der Staatsanwaltschaft und dem Zeugnis der Verteidigung hatte Killinger diese Behandlung nicht angeordnet und wurde erst später davon in Kenntnis gesetzt. Daraufhin ordnete er an, dass spezielle übermäßige Hitze nicht als Verhörmethode verwendet werden dürfe. Kein Mitglied der Dulag Luft Mitarbeiter wurde offiziell gerügt oder für die Anwendung der Wärmebehandlung bestraft.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_Walter_Killinger#Zweiter_Weltkrieg
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Re: Dachau: Confessions obtained thru torture

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Apr 14, 2017 7:03 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Your wording is better than mine, sorry about that, it was more than "abuse" and that is what I was trying to say in my vacuous last sentence: those killings were an atrocity, they should have been prosecuted as mass murder (war crimes).


I generally take a pragmatic view of such things, both sides shot POW's during the course of the war. It was worse in the Pacific, the atrocities the Japanese committed against Allied POW's and civilians rivals anything the SS ever did. But, US soldiers murdered Japanese POW's as a matter of course, it got so bad that incentives like ice cream and leave were offered to the marines so that they would actually take prisoners instead of shooting them out of hand (there was some justification for what the marines did, the Japanese refused or faked surrender in order to kill more marines).

I look at the circumstances involved and when it happened. If the incident happened during battle or right after a battle occurred then it is understandable that mistakes were made. I'm not condoning it, I'm just saying it's understandable. But, if the soldiers on either side clearly surrendered and were shot then this is blatant war crime, no matter who did it. So, the Germans who massacred the soldiers at Malmedy and the G.I.s that murdered the SS guards clearly committed war crimes and deserved to be punished.

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Re: Dachau: Confessions obtained thru torture

Postby BRoI » Fri Apr 14, 2017 7:41 pm

[Konrad] Morgen also did his best to convict Ilse Koch, the wife of the Buchenwald commandant. He was convinced that she was guilty of sadistic crimes, but the charges against her could not be proven. After the war Morgen was asked by an American official to testify that Frau Koch made lampshades from the skin of inmates. Morgen replied that, while she undoubtedly was guilty of many crimes, she was truly innocent of this charge. After personally investigating the matter, he had thrown it out of his own case. Even so, the American insisted that Morgen sign an affidavit that Frau Koch had made the lampshades. Anyone undaunted by Nazi threats was not likely to submit to those of a representative of the democracies. His refusal to lie was followed by a threat to turn him over to the Russians, who would surely beat him to death. Morgen's second and third refusals were followed by severe beatings. Though he detested Frau Koch, nothing could induce him to bear false witness. Fortunately, Morgen survived and is presently practicing law in West Germany.

- John Toland, Adolf Hitler, NY: Anchor Books, 1992, p.774.


Firstly, it's not true that Morgen investigated the lampshades nonsense:

Buchenwald trial transcript wrote:
Q [Captain Lewis, Kock's counsel]. During your investigations at Camp Buchenwald after the arrest, even before the arrest of Mrs. Kock, until May of 1944, was any report mode to you by anybody that Mrs. Koch had a lamp shade or gloves or a photo album or a book made of human skin in her possession?

A [Konrad Morgen]. No, I didn't even hear a rumor of any such thing.

- US vs Josias Prince zu Waldeck et al, 11 June 1947, p.2806


US vs. Oswald Pohl et al, NMT transcript wrote:
Q [Kurt Ponger, prosecutor]. You also know that the feeling for art in Buchenwald was so great that the wife of the former camp commader Koch who we know very will [sic], collected the tattooings of the prisoners in order to give them to people later one, and sometimes she even helped them turn it in much sooner and faster.

A [Konrad Morgen, witness]. Excuse me, I think about this question: I am very well informed and both there and in the Buchenwald trail [sic] I would like to explain explicitly that that was a propaganda lie. I have visited the house of the commander from top to bottom and for two days after, that I saw three criminal agents there and we searched the entire house, piece by piece, and not one single occasion did we find one single item which had anything to do with lampshades of human skin or picture albums which were covered with that skin.

[...]

Q. [...] it is absolutely possible that the question of the lamp shades and gloves of which Frau Koch was convicted to a life sentence in jail, is true, and I can also tell you that the lamp shades and gloves were found among the inmates of Buchenwald, that general Eisenhowever [sic] saw them personally.

A. Then those items should have been used in the Buchenwald trial and the Dachau trial as evidence. I know they were not introduced. There was a piece of skin which was tatooed [sic] which was in the Laborantory [sic] camp there but according to my knowledge Frau Kock had nothing to do with it. I personally arrested Frau Koch and I indicted her.

- Pohl Trial, August 27, 1947, transcript, pp. 6732-6733


I don't believe Morgen's claim to have been beaten by the Americans over this lampshade business. At the Buchenwald trial both Pister [camp commandant] and Nett [Morgen's junior colleague] also denied having seen anything made out of human-skin during their search of Koch's house. I suspect Morgen was alluding to threats or beatings he received regarding other matters.
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Re: Dachau: Confessions obtained thru torture

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Apr 14, 2017 7:57 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Your wording is better than mine, sorry about that, it was more than "abuse" and that is what I was trying to say in my vacuous last sentence: those killings were an atrocity, they should have been prosecuted as mass murder (war crimes).


I generally take a pragmatic view of such things, both sides shot POW's during the course of the war. It was worse in the Pacific, the atrocities the Japanese committed against Allied POW's and civilians rivals anything the SS ever did. But, US soldiers murdered Japanese POW's as a matter of course, it got so bad that incentives like ice cream and leave were offered to the marines so that they would actually take prisoners instead of shooting them out of hand (there was some justification for what the marines did, the Japanese refused or faked surrender in order to kill more marines).

I look at the circumstances involved and when it happened. If the incident happened during battle or right after a battle occurred then it is understandable that mistakes were made. I'm not condoning it, I'm just saying it's understandable. But, if the soldiers on either side clearly surrendered and were shot then this is blatant war crime, no matter who did it. So, the Germans who massacred the soldiers at Malmedy and the G.I.s that murdered the SS guards clearly committed war crimes and deserved to be punished.

IMO shooting and hacking to death SS captured and attempting to surrender is far beyond the pale.

David Kennedy's book from 15 years ago on the Roosevelt era, IIRC, is brutal on American atrocities in the east; my father, who fought in the Pacific, had told me about things he witnessed that he throughout his subsequent adult years felt made him, as a sailor on a US ship, complicit in war crimes.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

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Re: Dachau: Confessions obtained thru torture

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Apr 14, 2017 8:17 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:David Kennedy's book from 15 years ago on the Roosevelt era, IIRC, is brutal on American atrocities in the east; my father, who fought in the Pacific, had told me about things he witnessed that he throughout his subsequent adult years felt made him, as a sailor on a US ship, complicit in war crimes.


If you haven't done so I recommend a book by Michael Burleigh called Moral Combat. He discusses this extensively, the treatment of prisoners.

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Re: Dachau: Confessions obtained thru torture

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Apr 14, 2017 8:40 pm

Thanks, I will look at that.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

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Re: Dachau: Confessions obtained thru torture

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:04 pm

@Jeffk: In this lengthy thread ("Massacre of SS guards at Dachau"), a chap called Rob - wssob2 and others have a spirited and informative discussion of the killings during the liberation of Dachau. Someone named "xcalibur" participated and made succinct and incisive points along the way, reminiscent in fact of our own Xcalibur :)

(thanks to you who linked me to that thread - it was indeed excellent)
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Dachau: Confessions obtained thru torture

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:23 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:I have yet to see any trial testimony where a defendant uses the word 'torture' to describe his treatment. Ergo, no defendants were tortured. Besides, they didn't need to be tortured. Every German who was questioned by any allied personnel were more than happy to relieve the burden of guilt for what they had done to the poor Jews by telling their captors every state secret they knew.

What an insipidly stupid post. Btw do you take the word of all witnesses? IIRC you have a longstanding and equally dumb thing about witness testimony that cuts just one way.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Dachau: Confessions obtained thru torture

Postby BRoI » Thu May 18, 2017 10:32 pm

Here's one from the Flossenbuerg trial:

re: Michael Gelhardt, Germanised-Pole, born in "Kreczeniezvka Grenau [sic] ... in Poland, in the Ukraine", SS man, block leader, aged 30, fluent in German, Polish, Czech, Romanian, and Russian. Stationed at Flossenbuerg: Oct 1940 - April 1945.

CROSS EXAMINATION

QUESTIONS BY MR. BERKOWITZ [assistant prosecutor]:

MR. BERKOWITZ: Reporter, will you mark this statement as Prosecution Exhibit No. 74 for identification?

(The document referred to was marked Prosecution Exhibit No. 74 for identification.)

Q. Mr. Gelhardt, I show you a document marked Prosecution Exhibit No. 74 for identification and ask you if you recognize it.

A. No, I never had that in my hands, but I can state where it came from.

Q. Is this your signature?

A. Yes, the signature is mine.

Q. Now I ask you if this is also your signature?

A. Also, that is a copy of what Lt. Paul did in Freissing [sic]. It is just a copy of the other one.

Q. Is this the original of your signature?

A. Yes, that is my signature.

Q. In both cases?

A. Both are my signatures.

Q. You can read, can't you?

A. Yes, but that was written in English and not in German. Nothing was shown to me in German in Freissing.

Q. I ask you if this was written in German or in English?

A. That was written down by that man at the time in Dachau. I knew about that. That is correct.

Q. I ask you if this was written in English or German?

A. That was copied by this man here from the Freissing man, here in Dachau, in German. I was present then. I should like to ask for the document made by Lt. Paul in Freissing.

Q. Now you recognized your signature on the document which has been marked Prosecution Exhibit No. 74 for identification.

A. Yes.

Q. And your signature is on the sworn statement, that this writing was the truth which was subscribed by Capt. Rausch at Freissing.

A. Nothing was taken down from me in Freissing. There were 4 concentration camp prisoners there and I was tortured there for 5 days. I was stripped down and I was hanging on a pole for half an hour every day or twice a day until I finally signed this thing. I should like to make an explanation how it came about that this document is here. I don't have to lie about it. I can tell them full truth about it.

Q. Did you state that you participated in 3 different executions of Russians and Poles in that document?

PRESIDENT: Hold up on that question. The court will give the accused on the stand an opportunity at this time to make any statement he sees fit as to the manner in which this statement was secured. He may do so right now.

ACCUSED GELHARDT: On April 23, 1945, I was captured. I was taken prisoner in Kulmbach and I was in the prisoner of war camp there. I was treated very well there by the Americans. From there I was sent to the prisoner of war camp in Auerbach near Grafenwoehr. We were also treated well there as soldiers. Those were front line soldiers there. The on the 23 of April [sic], this camp was released because of danger of epidemics and everyone could go home including SS men up to the rank of sergeant, and I went home. On April the 28th I was denounced and I was taken to Flossenburg to the arrest building.

PRESIDENT: Just a minute, the court will give you an opportunity to make a statement later on, but what the court wants to find out right now is the conditions under which this statement was secured. The court is referring to Prosecution Exhibit No. 74. You have asked the court for an opportunity to make an explanation in regard to that matter, and the court will give you that opportunity right now.

ACCUSED GELHARDT: I was taken to Freissing in June. Nothing was against me there. I was then questioned by Lt. Paul. I also made a written statement of 4 pages. That lasted for about 5 days during which I was in the bunker. One day I was taken before Lt. Paul. He said, "you criminal, you are a 1st lt." I said, "Lieutenant, I am not a first lieutenant, I am a corporal and that is correct. I have written my statement and also mentioned the execution of 1941 in there." Then he beat me. I can show you the marks on my body. Right after that, he strung me up on a pole. All of a sudden, 4 prisoners came whom I had never seen before any place, never. They made the statement that Mr. Berkowitz has, but it was in English and he gave it to me to sign. I said, "Lieutenant, I have already made a written statement which is precise and correct, and I will not sign this thing here because I can't read it.["] He said "You are my victim, you can croak under my hands." I had to strip all the way except for my underdrawers and I was bound. All my hair was shaved off and that is the way I was thrown into the bunker. In the evening he came over with two negroes and he brought back the paper. "Now," he said, "You will sign this." I said, "Lieutenant, you can kill me, I won't sign it because I signed the one I had written." I was naked and bound and I couldn't do anything. Then he beat me and kicked me with his feet and his negroes did also. The negroes did not want to do it, but he ordered them to do so. Then I was lying on the ground in the corner. Then he sent one of the negroes for some water and he poured the water over me, and that is the way he left me till morning. About 10 o'clock in the morning be had me taken back again and I was beaten so severely that I have scars of this length on my back. He said "sign this thing here." I said, "Lieutenant, I can't." He beat me again, terrifically, I begged him to shoot me to death rather than torture me. He said, "if you sign it, you will be shot to death." I said I wouldn't sign it because its contents were something I didn't know about. I again received a portion of blows, and as my hands were bound behind me, they put a stick through my elbows. The stick was on a rope and I was strung up that way. Every few minutes, Lt. Paul came around with a long club, filled with rubber, and while I was hanging there, I received my beating. He still must have the picture because he took my picture while I was beaten and bloody. It is possible that he is using it as propaganda to show how the prisoners were treated, but I was an SS man. Then I was let free, but I couldn't stand on my legs. I had to look for support on the wall. I was bloody all over. Then I signed this thing and told them to shoot me to death.

PRESIDENT: Who is this Lt. Paul you are referring to?

ACCUSED GELHARDT: He is the American interrogating officer. I don't know whether he is American or not, but he had an American uniform. He is a small man, slender and quite young yet. He is quite well known. There are accused here in the dock who know him, quite well.

[...]

PRESIDENT: Mr. Berkowitz, can you give the court any information about about a 2nd Lieutenant Paul C. Guth?

MR. BERKOWITZ: Yes, Lt. Guth was an investigating officer of the war Crimes Division, as it may be called at that time. [...] He was assistant prosecutor of the Dachau case and the Mauthausen case, but I don't think he was in Freissing at all [oh yes he was - BRoI]. He was associated with [chief prosecutor] Colonel Denson who knows much more about him.

- US vs Friedrich Becker et al., 16 October 1946, pp.5174-5181.



Image
Interrogator, junior prosecutor, and alleged torturer Paul C. Guth [left] with chief prosecutor William Denson at the Mauthausen trial.

Guth played a prominent role in the investigation into the allegations of torture made by the defendants in the Malmedy massacre trial:

the subcommittee heard the testimony of Lt. Col. Edwin J. Carpenter and his interpreter, Paul G. Guth, who made an investigation of these alleged physical mistreatments prior to the trial, and whose findings did not support to the slightest degree the claims of physical brutality made in later affidavits by the convicted accused.

MALMEDY MASSACRE INVESTIGATION REPORT
SUBCOMMTTEE OF THE
COMMITTEE ON ARMED SERVICES
UNITED STATES SENATE.
Presented to the Senate, 14 October 1949.
p.15


Guth had told US Senate subcommittte hearing on 1 June 1949:

They [Malmedy trial defendants] would have every interest in the world to claim they were treated badly. They all followed the early mar crimes trials with a good deal of interest. I know, for instance, that German newspapers reporting those trials were at a premium on the black markets in the camps, so I assume that they started with what their predecessors had done, they studied how their predecessors had failed to break the confessions they had made, how they had all been sentenced, and probably came to realize that only claims of physical mistreatment would be strong enough to take away from the force of their confessions, because in the first war crimes trials there was no claim of physical violence, just claims that they had been misled into believing they would get off easier, and things like that, and the court apparently took the confessions at their face value, and they knew—there were plenty of German lawyers in the camp who were prisoners, and who instructed them on it.

- MMI, Vol. 1, p.947


That emphasised part is a lie. Above I've posted many a "claim of physical violence" from the defendants at the Dachau trial [US v. G. Weiss et al., 15 Nov - 13 Dec 1945]. I even quoted Dr. Witteler telling the court of the mistreatment and threats made by Guth when he refused to sign a false confession, and Johann Georg Kick's fears that he would again be severely beaten if he refused to sign the false confession Guth presented to him.
"... these witnesses would swear to anything if it gets the Germans killed."
- Solomon Surowitz, Assistant Prosecutor at the 1947 Buchenwald trial.

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Re: Dachau: Confessions obtained thru torture

Postby Mary Q Contrary » Fri May 19, 2017 3:29 am

BRoI wrote:Here's one from the Flossenbuerg trial:

re: Michael Gelhardt, Germanised-Pole, born in "Kreczeniezvka Grenau [sic] ... in Poland, in the Ukraine", SS man, block leader, aged 30, fluent in German, Polish, Czech, Romanian, and Russian. Stationed at Flossenbuerg: Oct 1940 - April 1945.

CROSS EXAMINATION

QUESTIONS BY MR. BERKOWITZ [assistant prosecutor]:

MR. BERKOWITZ: Reporter, will you mark this statement as Prosecution Exhibit No. 74 for identification?

(The document referred to was marked Prosecution Exhibit No. 74 for identification.)

Q. Mr. Gelhardt, I show you a document marked Prosecution Exhibit No. 74 for identification and ask you if you recognize it.

A. No, I never had that in my hands, but I can state where it came from.

Q. Is this your signature?

A. Yes, the signature is mine.

Q. Now I ask you if this is also your signature?

A. Also, that is a copy of what Lt. Paul did in Freissing [sic]. It is just a copy of the other one.

Q. Is this the original of your signature?

A. Yes, that is my signature.

Q. In both cases?

A. Both are my signatures.

Q. You can read, can't you?

A. Yes, but that was written in English and not in German. Nothing was shown to me in German in Freissing.

Q. I ask you if this was written in German or in English?

A. That was written down by that man at the time in Dachau. I knew about that. That is correct.

Q. I ask you if this was written in English or German?

A. That was copied by this man here from the Freissing man, here in Dachau, in German. I was present then. I should like to ask for the document made by Lt. Paul in Freissing.

Q. Now you recognized your signature on the document which has been marked Prosecution Exhibit No. 74 for identification.

A. Yes.

Q. And your signature is on the sworn statement, that this writing was the truth which was subscribed by Capt. Rausch at Freissing.

A. Nothing was taken down from me in Freissing. There were 4 concentration camp prisoners there and I was tortured there for 5 days. I was stripped down and I was hanging on a pole for half an hour every day or twice a day until I finally signed this thing. I should like to make an explanation how it came about that this document is here. I don't have to lie about it. I can tell them full truth about it.

Q. Did you state that you participated in 3 different executions of Russians and Poles in that document?

PRESIDENT: Hold up on that question. The court will give the accused on the stand an opportunity at this time to make any statement he sees fit as to the manner in which this statement was secured. He may do so right now.

ACCUSED GELHARDT: On April 23, 1945, I was captured. I was taken prisoner in Kulmbach and I was in the prisoner of war camp there. I was treated very well there by the Americans. From there I was sent to the prisoner of war camp in Auerbach near Grafenwoehr. We were also treated well there as soldiers. Those were front line soldiers there. The on the 23 of April [sic], this camp was released because of danger of epidemics and everyone could go home including SS men up to the rank of sergeant, and I went home. On April the 28th I was denounced and I was taken to Flossenburg to the arrest building.

PRESIDENT: Just a minute, the court will give you an opportunity to make a statement later on, but what the court wants to find out right now is the conditions under which this statement was secured. The court is referring to Prosecution Exhibit No. 74. You have asked the court for an opportunity to make an explanation in regard to that matter, and the court will give you that opportunity right now.

ACCUSED GELHARDT: I was taken to Freissing in June. Nothing was against me there. I was then questioned by Lt. Paul. I also made a written statement of 4 pages. That lasted for about 5 days during which I was in the bunker. One day I was taken before Lt. Paul. He said, "you criminal, you are a 1st lt." I said, "Lieutenant, I am not a first lieutenant, I am a corporal and that is correct. I have written my statement and also mentioned the execution of 1941 in there." Then he beat me. I can show you the marks on my body. Right after that, he strung me up on a pole. All of a sudden, 4 prisoners came whom I had never seen before any place, never. They made the statement that Mr. Berkowitz has, but it was in English and he gave it to me to sign. I said, "Lieutenant, I have already made a written statement which is precise and correct, and I will not sign this thing here because I can't read it.["] He said "You are my victim, you can croak under my hands." I had to strip all the way except for my underdrawers and I was bound. All my hair was shaved off and that is the way I was thrown into the bunker. In the evening he came over with two negroes and he brought back the paper. "Now," he said, "You will sign this." I said, "Lieutenant, you can kill me, I won't sign it because I signed the one I had written." I was naked and bound and I couldn't do anything. Then he beat me and kicked me with his feet and his negroes did also. The negroes did not want to do it, but he ordered them to do so. Then I was lying on the ground in the corner. Then he sent one of the negroes for some water and he poured the water over me, and that is the way he left me till morning. About 10 o'clock in the morning be had me taken back again and I was beaten so severely that I have scars of this length on my back. He said "sign this thing here." I said, "Lieutenant, I can't." He beat me again, terrifically, I begged him to shoot me to death rather than torture me. He said, "if you sign it, you will be shot to death." I said I wouldn't sign it because its contents were something I didn't know about. I again received a portion of blows, and as my hands were bound behind me, they put a stick through my elbows. The stick was on a rope and I was strung up that way. Every few minutes, Lt. Paul came around with a long club, filled with rubber, and while I was hanging there, I received my beating. He still must have the picture because he took my picture while I was beaten and bloody. It is possible that he is using it as propaganda to show how the prisoners were treated, but I was an SS man. Then I was let free, but I couldn't stand on my legs. I had to look for support on the wall. I was bloody all over. Then I signed this thing and told them to shoot me to death.

PRESIDENT: Who is this Lt. Paul you are referring to?

ACCUSED GELHARDT: He is the American interrogating officer. I don't know whether he is American or not, but he had an American uniform. He is a small man, slender and quite young yet. He is quite well known. There are accused here in the dock who know him, quite well.

[...]

PRESIDENT: Mr. Berkowitz, can you give the court any information about about a 2nd Lieutenant Paul C. Guth?

MR. BERKOWITZ: Yes, Lt. Guth was an investigating officer of the war Crimes Division, as it may be called at that time. [...] He was assistant prosecutor of the Dachau case and the Mauthausen case, but I don't think he was in Freissing at all [oh yes he was - BRoI]. He was associated with [chief prosecutor] Colonel Denson who knows much more about him.

- US vs Friedrich Becker et al., 16 October 1946, pp.5174-5181.



Image
Interrogator, junior prosecutor, and alleged torturer Paul C. Guth [left] with chief prosecutor William Denson at the Mauthausen trial.

Guth played a prominent role in the investigation into the allegations of torture made by the defendants in the Malmedy massacre trial:

the subcommittee heard the testimony of Lt. Col. Edwin J. Carpenter and his interpreter, Paul G. Guth, who made an investigation of these alleged physical mistreatments prior to the trial, and whose findings did not support to the slightest degree the claims of physical brutality made in later affidavits by the convicted accused.

MALMEDY MASSACRE INVESTIGATION REPORT
SUBCOMMTTEE OF THE
COMMITTEE ON ARMED SERVICES
UNITED STATES SENATE.
Presented to the Senate, 14 October 1949.
p.15


Guth had told US Senate subcommittte hearing on 1 June 1949:

They [Malmedy trial defendants] would have every interest in the world to claim they were treated badly. They all followed the early mar crimes trials with a good deal of interest. I know, for instance, that German newspapers reporting those trials were at a premium on the black markets in the camps, so I assume that they started with what their predecessors had done, they studied how their predecessors had failed to break the confessions they had made, how they had all been sentenced, and probably came to realize that only claims of physical mistreatment would be strong enough to take away from the force of their confessions, because in the first war crimes trials there was no claim of physical violence, just claims that they had been misled into believing they would get off easier, and things like that, and the court apparently took the confessions at their face value, and they knew—there were plenty of German lawyers in the camp who were prisoners, and who instructed them on it.

- MMI, Vol. 1, p.947


That emphasised part is a lie. Above I've posted many a "claim of physical violence" from the defendants at the Dachau trial [US v. G. Weiss et al., 15 Nov - 13 Dec 1945]. I even quoted Dr. Witteler telling the court of the mistreatment and threats made by Guth when he refused to sign a false confession, and Johann Georg Kick's fears that he would again be severely beaten if he refused to sign the false confession Guth presented to him.

OK. what I meant was that the word "torture" wasn't used in any official US government report to describe the way any German soldier or civilian was treated during an interrogation by Allied military personnel. I'm sure there might have been Germans who reported being tortured during interrogations. But if an official government report does not acknowledge torture, then we must conclude that claims of having experienced torture are merely unsubstantiated rumors and hearsay..
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Re: Dachau: Confessions obtained thru torture

Postby Denying-History » Fri May 19, 2017 4:33 am

Stop wasting everyone's time Mary... do what you do best and go alter holocaust testimony to prove UFO's exists.
« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
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Re: Dachau: Confessions obtained thru torture

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Jun 03, 2017 7:58 pm

Another example of extra-legal revenge for crimes the Nazi regime committed:
May 25 [1945, Theresienstadt]: German prisoners from the "Kleine Festung," in striped concentration camp outfits, smeared with swastikas and with shaven heads, are beaten with clubs by Jewish overseers and shouted at: "Faster, faster! We worked for you for five years!" A Polish woman yells, "Where are our children? Where are our fathers and mothers?" Others cry, "Pigs, pigs!" and others, "Died of hunger!" "Gassed!" "Crematorium!" A Pole takes a club and beats a German, with many cries: "Gas, crematorium, Auschwitz!" The same is yelled from the windows. Generally, people are satisfied with insults and incitement, but most say that one should have no sympathy with the Germans.

May 27: Germans continue to work in the camp, but under better conditions. A Polish woman, asked for water, says, "I won't give you any, you gassed my husband and child."

May 28: People have stopped cursing the Germans. People say, "What good is it, our people aren't coming back."

(HG Adler, on M Frankenhuis, Dagboek, Deel IV, Theresienstadt, MS, T, 1944/45, Theresienstadt: 1941-1945, pp 659-660; the Kleine Festung was the "small fortress," a Gestapo prison separate from the ghetto Theresienstadt, used for Czech political opponents of the Nazis, resistance members, those arrested after Heydrich's assassination, economic offenders, and so on as well as for inmates of the ghetto sent there for punishment for rules infractions; an SS guard was deployed to the small fortress and was known for its harsh, terroristic methods)
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Dachau: Confessions obtained thru torture

Postby Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Sun Jun 04, 2017 3:15 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Another example of extra-legal revenge for crimes the Nazi regime committed:
May 25 [1945, Theresienstadt]: German prisoners from the "Kleine Festung," in striped concentration camp outfits, smeared with swastikas and with shaven heads, are beaten with clubs by Jewish overseers and shouted at: "Faster, faster! We worked for you for five years!" A Polish woman yells, "Where are our children? Where are our fathers and mothers?" Others cry, "Pigs, pigs!" and others, "Died of hunger!" "Gassed!" "Crematorium!" A Pole takes a club and beats a German, with many cries: "Gas, crematorium, Auschwitz!" The same is yelled from the windows. Generally, people are satisfied with insults and incitement, but most say that one should have no sympathy with the Germans.

May 27: Germans continue to work in the camp, but under better conditions. A Polish woman, asked for water, says, "I won't give you any, you gassed my husband and child."

May 28: People have stopped cursing the Germans. People say, "What good is it, our people aren't coming back."



It reminds me of the photograph I love most:

Image

Actually, this photo is the last of a 'three-photos' story which we can see at the bottom of this page:

https://protocolswithoutzion.wordpress. ... leteworks/

First:
- German soldiers from an Einsatzgruppen (Mobile Death Squad) torment a Jew who was caught in prayer and burns part of the Tefillin:

Image

Then:
On April 20th 1945 a British army chaplain helped organise a Shabbat service five days after the liberation of the Bergen Belsen Concentration Camp. A contemporary BBC radio report says that it was the first Jewish religious service held without fear on German soil for a decade. The report says:
During the service the few hundred people gathered together were sobbing openly with joy at their liberation and with sorrow at the memory of their parents and brothers and sisters who had been taken from them and gassed and burnt. These people knew they were being recorded. They wanted the world to hear their voice. They made a tremendous effort which quite exhausted them.
The exhausting effort they made was to sing Hatikva, the Zionist national anthem, so it could be heard around the world. This was how they made their progressive case for Israel. For many survivors, getting out of Europe was not enough. Having been taught that they couldn’t rely on others to help them, they wanted Jewish national self-determination. Feeling safe was too much to hope for, but it would make them feel that if they were again threatened as Jews, then they would be able to die defending themselves, collectively, as Jews.


- In rare and moving footage dated to April 20th 1945, inmates at Bergen Belsen Concentration Camp sing the anthem of hope 'Hatikva.'

https://youtu.be/syUSmEbGLs4?t=1m13s

Or:
- Hatikvah Sung at Bergen-Belsen by Clive Kandel

Clive Kandel Moments in History - Hatikvah Sung at Bergen-Belsen 23rd April 1945 Graphic Disturbing.
23rd April 1945 BBC reporter Patrick Gordon Walker and Richard Dimbleby transmitted the following transmission from recently liberated concentration camp Bergen-Belsen.
'When the British and Canadians advanced on Bergen-Belsen in 1945, the German army negotiated a truce and exclusion zone around the camp to prevent the spread of typhus.When the Allied troops finally entered they found thousands of bodies unburied and approximately 55.000 inmates, most acutely sick and starving. Over the next days the surviving prisoners were deloused and moved to a nearby German army camp, which became the Bergen-Belsen DP camp. The remaining SS personnel were then forced by armed Allied troops to bury the bodies in pits. In spite of massive efforts to help the survivors, about another 9.000 died in April, and by the end of June 1945 another 4.000 had died (after liberation a total of 13,994 people died). On the 13th day after liberation, the Luftwaffe bombed one of the hospitals in the DP camp, injuring and killing several patients and Red Cross workers. The total number of deaths at Bergen-Belsen from 1943 to June 1945 was about 50.000.
Rabbi Leslie Hardman, who took the service,was quoted later saying,
«If all the trees in the world turned into pens, all the waters in the oceans turned into ink and the heavens turned into paper, it would still be insufficient material to describe the horrors these people suffered under the SS»'.


Think of something like this (this one is from Dachau but it's a similar event):

Image

And then the great, IMHO, photo from my blog against antisemitism, which I posted at the top of this comment.
According to experts and scholars, the 10 stages of every genocide are
Classification Symbolization Discrimination Dehumanization Organization Polarization Preparation Persecution Extermination
... and finally the 10th stage:
Denial
http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocide/t ... ocide.html

XYZ Contagion (‘Because the truth is contagious‘), an investigative/research political and historical website, deals also with the Srebrenica Genocide
https://xyzcontagion.wordpress.com/about/#English

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Re: Dachau: Confessions obtained thru torture

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:30 pm

thanks; the top two photos are such a great pairing . . .
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Dachau: Confessions obtained thru torture

Postby Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Wed Jun 14, 2017 8:04 pm

Of possible interest,

- Remember Malmedy: The truth, and untruth, of a German atrocity.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/remember- ... le/2008381
According to experts and scholars, the 10 stages of every genocide are
Classification Symbolization Discrimination Dehumanization Organization Polarization Preparation Persecution Extermination
... and finally the 10th stage:
Denial
http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocide/t ... ocide.html

XYZ Contagion (‘Because the truth is contagious‘), an investigative/research political and historical website, deals also with the Srebrenica Genocide
https://xyzcontagion.wordpress.com/about/#English

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Re: Dachau: Confessions obtained thru torture

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:35 pm

thanks, I ordered Remy's book and a 2000 title (whose author trashed Remy on Amazon) to learn more, appreciate the heads-up on Remy's book
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Dachau: Confessions obtained thru torture

Postby BRoI » Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:12 pm

DEPUTY JUDGE ADVOCATE'S OFFICE
7708 WAR CRIMES GROUP
EUROPEAN COMMAND
APO 407


UNITED STATES
v.
Karl GLAS, et al.

Case No. 000-50-5-31

REVIEW AND RECOMMENDATIONS

I. TRIAL DATA: The accused were tried at Dachau, Germany during the period 28 July - 12 August 1947, before a General Military Government Court.

1. Karl GLAS

Nationality: ............... German
Age: ............................ 40
Civilian Status: .......... Prisoner - Inmate Mental Institute
Party Status: .............. None
Military Status: .......... None
Plea: ........................... NG
Findings: .................... G
Sentence: .................. Life imprisonment

Evidence for Prosecution: In his Statements, the accused stated that he came to Camp Mauthausen in March 1944; that he remained about four weeks in quarantine before being sent to subcamp Gusen; [...] In another Statement the accused stated that while he was room eldest at block 19 he assisted in killing two inmates who were too weak to walk, a capo killing one and he the other. [...]

Evidence for Defense: The accused testified that in 1930 he was confined in an institution for the mentally deficient and invalids; that later he attended a school in France and served two and one half years in the French Foreign Legion, returning then to Germany; that he was arrested in 1934 by the Gestapo; that he served a term in a penal company and another in jail; that he was then returned to the institution for the mentally deficient and invalids, where he remained for two years before being sent to Mauthausen. He did not read and did not know the contents of his first Statement, but signed after being beaten by other inmates from Mauthausen. Accused admitted that he wrote his second Statement, but testified that he copied it from statements which other inmates at Dachau wrote for him and that he never swore to it; and that no force, coercion or offer of reward induced the Statement. He denied that part of the second Statement concerning the killing of the two inmates who could no longer walk and further testified that he was not put into the Waffen SS but into a probation company. [pp.2-3]
"... these witnesses would swear to anything if it gets the Germans killed."
- Solomon Surowitz, Assistant Prosecutor at the 1947 Buchenwald trial.

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Re: Dachau: Confessions obtained thru torture

Postby iwh » Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:40 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:thanks, I ordered Remy's book and a 2000 title (whose author trashed Remy on Amazon) to learn more, appreciate the heads-up on Remy's book


Just finished it....An excellent account of the myths that surround the Malmedy trials. I wouldn't say that Weingartner "trashed" Remy at Amazon. His criticism seemed to focus on the action at La Gleize if I remember correctly and he got rather pissed off that Remy had misinterpreted (deliberately?) the term "transparently worthless". Remy claimed that Weingartner was referring to all defence testimony, when in fact Weingarten claimed he was referring to only the testimony as regards La Gleize.

... then he goes and writes this conclusion:

"This analysis does not imply that the sworn statements were entirely false. Many -- probably all --contained partial truths. Some may have been entirely factual. War crimes had been committed and Waffen-SS troopers of Kampfgruppe Peiper had committed them. But the circumstances under which they were elicited must produce very grave doubts as to the overall truthfulness of this block of evidence...."

I haven't actually got Weingarten's book....so, does the above statement refer to ALL the sworn statements made at the trial or does it refer only to the sworn statements for La Gleize? If the former, then Remy's assessment of Weingartner's work is correct. If the latter, then it is not.

For a link to the Amazon page:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Malmedy-Massacre-Crimes-Trial-Controversy/dp/0674971957/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1507899718&sr=8-1&keywords=the+malmedy+massacre

Remy himself, on p 125 of his book also states that eyewitness testimony can be unreliable and indeed states that just because the testimonies were not carried out under torture does not mean they are accurate and truthful and tends to agree with the gist of Weingartner's comments on sworn testaments.

Regarding La Gleize, the reality seems to be that a handful of US GIs were murdered, either for "target practice" or, as Peiper stated, to keep the other prisoners in line.

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Re: Dachau: Confessions obtained thru torture

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:56 pm

Agree fully. I also thought Remy's book to be excellent; I learned a lot from it, his reconstruction of the massacre is really good but I'm with you that the way he handles the testimonies and legal history stands out - Weingartner's I couldn't stay with, for some reason, probably simply because it was poorly written, so I gave up. OTOH I highly recommend Remy's book.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927


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