The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread

Postby Balmoral95 » Sat Jun 17, 2017 5:10 am

Jeff_36 wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:
BRoI gonna big on this pic... he'll {!#%@} jump over the stupid war time capture caption and then emiss all over RODOH and Crapbookpages. Apparently it's tough deprogramming from denial.


Looks like just a damn pipe to me.


Yup.

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread

Postby Balmoral95 » Sat Jun 17, 2017 5:32 am

Don't think he likes here much, regardless his alleged epiphany. He's trash, and always was a purveyor of BS.

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread

Postby Hans » Sat Jun 17, 2017 5:56 am

I asked Patrick Montague on the pipe, he remembers to have seen it at Sobibor or Belzec Museums, so the reference to Chelmno is dubious in any case.

It would be still interesting to find out what the pipe with holes was good for. Sprinkler for the Sobibor garden, massage shower head from Belzec, gas chamber nozzle?

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread

Postby Hans » Sat Jun 17, 2017 5:57 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:haven't read it this yet but just popped up on HC: Sonderkommando Kulmhof in German Documents: Part I: Origin and Foundation


This is just the appetizer, many more to come :)

There are too many German documents on Chelmno still unknown in the English speaking literature.

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread

Postby Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Sat Jun 17, 2017 2:49 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:haven't read it this yet but just popped up on HC: Sonderkommando Kulmhof in German Documents: Part I: Origin and Foundation


God, what a f*ckin' perfect work!
According to experts and scholars, the 10 stages of every genocide are
Classification Symbolization Discrimination Dehumanization Organization Polarization Preparation Persecution Extermination
... and finally the 10th stage:
Denial
http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocide/t ... ocide.html

XYZ Contagion (‘Because the truth is contagious‘), an investigative/research political and historical website, deals also with the Srebrenica Genocide
https://xyzcontagion.wordpress.com/about/#English

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:50 am

Hans wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:haven't read it this yet but just popped up on HC: Sonderkommando Kulmhof in German Documents: Part I: Origin and Foundation


This is just the appetizer, many more to come :)

There are too many German documents on Chelmno still unknown in the English speaking literature.

You're off to a great start, Hans. Many thanks.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Jul 05, 2017 1:21 am

OK, so, back to this.
Sorry about my absence from this thread, been tied up with reading, work and family. I have a few minutes so, besides what we already discussed, I want to revisit gas vans.
We've already talked about the earliest gas vans, those that used bottled carbon monoxide instead of exhaust.

These are documents related to gas vans from Holocaust Controversies:
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.de/2015/10/contemporary-german-documents-on.html?m=1#_doc1

We can see (chronologically) that the first document deals with "devices" while Nebe's Telegram specifically mentions "vehicles." From what I can tell from below the process to make these vans started in September.

From Christopher Browning's "Origins of the Final Solution," taken from the chapter "From War of Destruction to Final Solution," we know that the mass shootings started causing mental problems amongst the shooters and Himler began searching for solutions to make killing easier (for the killers, not the victims).

There were two possible solutions:
1) Using explosives to murder the victims and
2) Using gas to murder the victims.

Browning mentions that Nebe considered the use of exhaust gas, ironically based on personal experience after Nebe passed out drunk in his car and almost died from the exhaust fumes. Experiments on patients at Mogilev and Novinki proved successful, the patients died after being locked in rooms with hoses carrying the exhaust in from a car and a truck (Browning doesn't mention this but from my own recollection I believe the truck was used after the car proved less successful).

From Browning, Heydrich tasked Walter Rauff in the creation of the vehicle and Rauff turned to the chief of his motor pool, Friedrich Pradel. Pradel in turn worked with his chief mechanic, Harry Wintritt, to come up with these gas vans that introduced the exhaust into the cargo hold. The time period for this was in September of 1941. Wintritt later relayed how he asked to be relieved of this duty but Pradel asked him to "think of his wife and children." The two consulted with a Dr. Hees on how the van itself should function. Rauff procured five Saur model truck chassis that were converted into vans.

Dr. Hees then tested a van a Sachsenhausen on forty Soviet POWs in either late October or November of 1941. The victims turned pink, showing they died from carbon monoxide poisoning and not suffocation. Firma Graubschsut was then contracted to do thirty conversions.

Now, Browning's footnotes cite the above events back to Pradel and Wintritt's Trial.

Now, Montague's book includes Wintritt's testimony on conversion (page 200):

A removable exhaust hose, which led from the outside to the floor of the van, was fixed to the exhaust. We bored a hole in the van about 58 to 60 millimeters in diameter, the size of the exhaust pipe. Over this hole, to the inside of the van, was welded a metal pipe, which was attached to, or could be attached to, the exhaust hose that came from the outside. When the engine was switched on and the connections made, the engine’s exhaust fumes went through the exhaust pipe into the exhaust hose and from there into the pipe that led to the inside of the van. Thus the van filled with gas. [. . . Pradel] instructed me to fix the vans in such a way that the engine exhaust fumes could be introduced into the van. This was possible with the help of the hose that was attached to the exhaust. Pradel then told me that another pipe had to be fitted inside the van to prevent the occupants from interfering with the admission of the gas. Thus, the work carried out in our motor pool was essentially determined by Pradel or his superiors. 6


So, as far as I can tell no documentation actually exists but we do have the testimony of those involved with the conversion process.

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread

Postby BRoI » Wed Jul 05, 2017 7:29 pm

Hans wrote:Does anyone know more information on this item? Like whether it was found in Chelmno at all?

Image


That was found at Belzec in the 1960s and is currently on display in the museum, I've seen it.

Kues has a picture and discusses it and relevant testimony on page 984f.
http://holocausthandbooks.com/dl/28-tecoar-long.pdf

It fits with the early claim about how the pipes bringing the exhaust fumes into the gas chambers were under the floor. I'm referring to a 1940s Polish publication I was looking at the other day; can't recall the name of it this minute but will post the pages when I remember.

This is a model of the second set of GCs at the museum, featuring depictions of this pipe:

Image

[edit: typos]
Last edited by BRoI on Wed Jul 05, 2017 7:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"... these witnesses would swear to anything if it gets the Germans killed."
- Solomon Surowitz, Assistant Prosecutor at the 1947 Buchenwald trial.

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread

Postby BRoI » Wed Jul 05, 2017 7:33 pm

Balmoral95 wrote:Don't think he likes here much, regardless his alleged epiphany. He's trash, and always was a purveyor of BS.

Who are you?
"... these witnesses would swear to anything if it gets the Germans killed."
- Solomon Surowitz, Assistant Prosecutor at the 1947 Buchenwald trial.

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread

Postby Balmoral95 » Wed Jul 05, 2017 8:36 pm

BRoI wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:Don't think he likes here much, regardless his alleged epiphany. He's trash, and always was a purveyor of BS.

Who are you?


The wind........

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Jul 05, 2017 8:38 pm


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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Jul 05, 2017 8:40 pm

See, random comments send me on weird tangents.

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jul 05, 2017 10:16 pm

. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread

Postby Balmoral95 » Wed Jul 05, 2017 11:20 pm


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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jul 05, 2017 11:27 pm

. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread

Postby Balmoral95 » Thu Jul 06, 2017 12:23 am


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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread

Postby Balmoral95 » Thu Jul 06, 2017 12:32 am


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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jul 06, 2017 1:10 am

. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread

Postby Balmoral95 » Thu Jul 06, 2017 1:14 am


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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Jul 06, 2017 1:27 am




I actually really like "Red House."
https://vimeo.com/141238773

Best version I could find but, um, well...half naked hippie chicks alert.

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jul 06, 2017 1:29 am

. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread

Postby Balmoral95 » Thu Jul 06, 2017 1:36 am


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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jul 06, 2017 1:38 am

. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jul 06, 2017 1:40 am

. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread

Postby Balmoral95 » Thu Jul 06, 2017 1:47 am


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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jul 06, 2017 2:08 am

. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jul 06, 2017 2:17 am

. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jul 06, 2017 2:20 am

. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jul 06, 2017 2:21 am

. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread

Postby Balmoral95 » Thu Jul 06, 2017 2:34 am


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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jul 06, 2017 2:43 am

LMAO
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jul 06, 2017 2:44 am

. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Jul 06, 2017 2:56 am

Damnit, never mind, duplicate....:lol:
Last edited by Jeffk 1970 on Thu Jul 06, 2017 3:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Jul 06, 2017 2:58 am

Balmoral95 wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfg97-5uhFQ



Blech

:lol:

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread

Postby Balmoral95 » Thu Jul 06, 2017 3:00 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfg97-5uhFQ



Blech

:lol:


I know, right... :lol:


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