The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread

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Re: The Chelmno Thread

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Apr 19, 2017 8:14 pm

:lol:

They thought (((you))) faked the exhibit.

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Re: The Chelmno Thread

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:08 pm

They tried to convince (((me))) that I hadn't done what I had done! LOL
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: The Chelmno Thread

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:58 pm

Documents and statements about gas vans in places other than Chelmno.

There is a statement from a Jew in Riga:

Mendel Vulfovich, testified on 9 December 1944 before a Soviet commission investigating Nazi war crimes: "In February 1942, I saw with my own eyes two thousand elderly Jews from Germany, men and women, being loaded into special gas vans. These vans were painted gray-green and had a large closed cargo compartment with hermetically sealed doors. All those inside were killed by gas." (15)


Boris Dobin:
Boris Dobin, a Jew from the Minsk ghetto, also testified to the use of gas vans in the town. He saw these vans in action on several occasions: "The brutal guards took away van loads of peaceable Soviet citizens who had been interned in the camps. They were loaded into trucks and also onto vehicles equipped to kill by means of exhaust fumes. These vehicles had all-metal cargo compartments. The prisoners from the ghetto called these vehicles 'gas vans.' " (28)



http://www.phdn.org/archives/einsatzgru ... ts/et.html




Here are statements from Germans who both utilized and saw the vans in use in the USSR:
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... s.html?m=1

A document detailing gas vans in Belarus:
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-B5f_m8eGHQI/ ... /00011.JPG

Translation:

To the RSHA. – ROEM. 2 D 3 A - Berlin. Secret State Matter.
Re. S.-Wagon.

At the commander of the SIPO a. the SD. Belarus a transport of Jews arrives weekly which is to be subjected to a special treatment. The 3 S-wagons existing there do not suffice for this purpose. I request the allocation of another S-wagon (5 tons). Furthermore I request at once to also send 20 exhaust hoses for the existing 3 S-wagons (2 Daimond, 1 Saurer), as those available are already leaky.

The Comm. of SIPO a. the SD. Ostland Roem. 1 T – 126/42 GRS. [secret state matter] A. sgd.: Truehess. HStuf. [correct: Truehe, SS HStuf.]
Task:
1) When can the deployment of another S-wagon be expected?
2) Are spare exhaust hoses available, on order or when deliverable?
3) submit draft for answer


http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... m=1#_doc12


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-MHgErHO7jjI/V ... 9004_2.jpg

Translation:

Reichssicherheitshauptamt Berlin, 22 June 1942

II D 3 a B.Nr. 240/42 Secret State Matter

Telegram
To the Commander of the Security Police and the SD Ostland in Riga

Subject: S Wagon

The transfer of a 5 t Saurer can be expected middle of next month. The vehicle is currently at the Imperial Security Main Officefor repairs and to make minor changes. 100 m hose will be sent along.

p.p.(signature as head)

2.) F[ollow-]u[p]. immmediately at II D 3 a (9)

p.p. Rauff

II D 3a (9) Berlin, 13 July 1942
No. T. J Niederhausen for further action and please note the remark of 13 July 42 on the back of the telegram from Belgrade. For technical reasons only five rings of 10 m each can be sent.
p.p. Wentritt


http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... m=1#_doc13


Wilhelm Findeisen worked for Einsatzgruppe C as a gas van driver in Kiev, Ukraine. Findeisen stated, “My job was just to drive the vehicle . . . About forty people were loaded inside. There were men, women, and children . . . The van door was then bolted shut, and the hose was attached . . . I drove through the town to the antitank ditches. There the doors of the vehicle were opened . . . The bodies were thrown into the antitank ditches.”[8] (Trial in Darmstadt, West Germany, 1967)


https://www.hdot.org/debunking-denial/gv4-witnesses/

I personally superintended the execution in Rostow which was performed by means of a gas truck. The persons destined for death - after their money and valuables (sometimes their clothes too) had been taken from them - were loaded into the gas truck which held between 50-60 people. The truck was then driven to a place outside the town where members of my Kommando had already dug a mass grave. I have seen myself the unloading of the dead bodies, their faces were in no way distorted, death came to these people without any outward signs of spasms. There was no physician present at the unloading to certify that the people were really dead. The gas truck was driven by the driver SACKENREUTER of NUERNBERG who had been most carefully instructed about the handling of the gas truck having been through special training courses.


After quitting Rostov-on-the-Don with the retreating Wehrmacht at the end of November, Sonderkommando 10a spent the winter months of 1941–42 in Taganrog on the Sea of Azov. There it received a gas van to facilitate the killing operations while easing the psychological strain on the murderers. According to one driver with the unit, Seetzen “maliciously” laughed at the screaming and banging of those locked in the vehicle as it drove off with the exhaust fumes engulfing them.[78]



Or they parked the van and gassed them, then drove to the dump site:

Shortly before we left Sevastopol the detachment was issued a gas van. [ …] At that time I also knew already that in the school-like building Jews were being held prisoner. When we arrived there, the van already stood loaded in front of the house. I immediately noticed that the van was running more strongly in idle mode. Why this had to be so I didn’t yet know at the time. I knew that I had a gas van in front of me, by I thought that those inside would be gassed with chemicals. While I remained inside my vehicle, Maurer stepped out and talked to the accompanying detachment. I saw that both Maurer and the others held their ears against the vehicle’s wall. They probably wanted to hear what was going on inside. I for my part was still wondering why they didn’t drive off. Only after about 10 minutes they started. Maurer and I drove ahead as guides. The trip was again to the anti-tank ditches. Once they arrived there the van was driven backwards close to the pit, so that the door was directly above the pit. I myself had out of curiosity positioned myself right behind the door. What I saw now cannot be described. I can only say that those inside had died a most wretched and mean death. I only saw a ball of people clawed into each other.«"


In the spring of 1942, we received gas vehicles from the Chief of the Security Police and the SD in Berlin. These vehicles were made available by Amt II of the RSHA. The man who was responsible for the cars of my Einsatzgruppe was Becker. We had received orders to use the cars for the killing of women and children. Whenever a unit had collected a sufficient number of victims, a car was sent for their liquidation. We also had these gas vehicles stationed in the neighborhood of the transient camps into which the victims were brought. The victims were told that they would be resettled and had to climb into the vehicle for that purpose. When the doors were closed and the gas streamed in through the starting of the vehicle, the victims died within 10 to 15 minutes. The cars were then driven to the burial place where the corpses were taken out and buried.



http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... s.html?m=1

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:32 pm

How does the Korherr Report address Chelmno?
through the camps in the Warthgau..............145,301 Jews


http://germanhistorydocs.ghi-dc.org/doc ... ge_id=2479

Now, granted, that doesn't specifically state "Chelmno" and states "camps" (plural) but I think for our purposes we can safely say that this was, in fact, Chelmno. Also, this information only shows us how many Jews were transported to the camp up to December 31st, 1942 because this is the time period covered in the Korherr Report.

Now, the issue with the Korherr Report is that if we are going to use this as proof of transport instead of extermination we have to consider that it only shows us how many went to the camps. It does not show us where they went afterwards. This is troubling because the whole idea behind the Korherr Report was to show how many Jews were left in areas in German control. Logically, the Germans could only plant the Jews that they had control of in areas under their occupation so they would still need to be included in this count.
They are not.
Also:
Between 1937 and the beginning of 1943, the number of Jews in Europe is likely to have declined by an estimated 4 million, in part through emigration, in part through excess mortality of the Jews in central and western Europe, in part through the evacuations especially in the völkisch stronger eastern territories, which are calculated here as departure.


So, the numbers of Jews in Europe have declined by four million, partly by emigration, excess mortality and by evacuation. Korherr specifically uses the word "evacuation" as it relates to the Eastern Territories but does not say where.

He also says this:
One must not overlook that only a part of the deaths of Soviet Russian Jews in the occupied eastern territories are recorded here


So, he has only recorded a portion of the deaths in the occupied East. This means there are additional numbers of deaths that he has not recorded.

After the Korherr Report was submitted Himmler sent the report back with directions to change the wording.
Original German here:
http://www.ns-archiv.de/verfolgung/korh ... immler.php

Translation:


The Reichsführer-SS
Personal Staff
Diary Nr.
-V.

Field Command Post 10.4.1943

[Stamp: Secret Reich Matter]

2 Copies
2nd Copy


To the
Inspector for Statistics, Party Comrade Korherr
B e r l i n



The Reichsführer SS has received your statistical report about “The Final Solution of the European Jewish Question”. He wishes that in no place a “special treatment of the Jews” is referred to. On page 9, item 4, the wording must be the following:

" Transportation of Jews from the
eastern provinces to the Russian
East: ............................
The following numbers were sifted
through the camps in the General
Government .............
through the camps in the Warthegau....."

Another wording may not be used.
I send back the copy of the report already initialed by the Reichsführer SS with the request to change this page 9 accordingly and to send it back.


SS-Obersturmbannführer


So we see that in fact the original wording was "special treatment" and not "transportation."

Now, the next bit is somewhat controversial so I will add it with a caveat. Allegedly Korherr wrote a letter that appears on David Irving's website, you can see the German version here:

http://fpp.co.uk/History/General/Korher ... 50777.html

Translation:
Der SPIEGEL, Nr. 31, 25. Juli 1977, S. 12 :
THE known, racially persecuted writer H. G. Adler, formerly in Prague, now in London, wrote the following in 1960, in the foreword to the second edition of his extraordinary book "Theresienstadt 1941--1945": "It should be expressly stated that the designation of Dr. Korherr as 'SS-statistician' ... is not accurate, as he was never a member of the SS and has been rehabilitated for his conduct in the years of National Socialism."
Der SPIEGEL unfortunately publishes the claim of English historian Irving that I had in the spring of 1943 calculated the number of Jewish victims at Himmler’s order. In fact these data were provided to me completely finished including text by the Reich Main Security Office (Reichssicherheitshauptamt – RSHA) with the condition that I was not allowed to change any number and any word.
The statement that I had mentioned that over a million Jews had died in the camps of the Generalgouvernement and the Warthegau through special treatment is also inaccurate. I must protest against the word "died" in this context.
It was the very word "Sonderbehandlung" ("special treatment") that led me to call the RSHA by phone and ask what this word meant. I was given the answer that these were Jews who were settled in the Lublin district.
Braunschweig
Dr. Richard Korherr


I can't vouch for the authenticity of the letter but I'll give David Irving this much, he does his utmost to insure that any documents he uses are authentic. So, if true, Korherr inquired about the location of the "evacuated" Jews and was told they were settled in the Lublin region. This is, of course, ridiculous.

Now, you'll note that there is much more of the Korherr Report than what relates to Chelmno. The reason why is permanent_denial made the mistake of mentioning the Korherr Report as proof of deportation and not extermination. I added the rest of it to correct this assumption on his part.

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread

Postby NathanC » Sat Apr 22, 2017 2:18 am

Jeffk_1970 wrote:" Transportation of Jews from the
eastern provinces to the Russian
East: ............................
The following numbers were sifted
through the camps in the General
Government .............
through the camps in the Warthegau....."


There's really no way to pass transports to Chelmno as being transports "to the east". For one very simple reason: The Lodz Ghetto, where most of the deportees were from, is southeast of Chelmno. Which would of course mean that the deportees were sent westwards, away from the so called "east". Just like that one transport from Bialystok to Treblinka. There's really no need or reason to send Jews westward if the intent was allegedly to send them east. In fact, in the very early stages of the Invasion of Poland, some Germans actually put Jews on boats and sent them across the river to what would become the Soviet Zone. That makes sense. The whole BS about sending Jews westward to send them east doesn't.

https://www.google.com.ph/maps/place/Ch ... 4d18.42499

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Apr 22, 2017 2:21 am

NathanC wrote:
Jeffk_1970 wrote:" Transportation of Jews from the
eastern provinces to the Russian
East: ............................
The following numbers were sifted
through the camps in the General
Government .............
through the camps in the Warthegau....."


There's really no way to pass transports to Chelmno as being transports "to the east". For one very simple reason: The Lodz Ghetto, where most of the deportees were from, is southeast of Chelmno. Which would of course mean that the deportees were sent westwards, away from the so called "east". Just like that one transport from Bialystok to Treblinka. There's really no need or reason to send Jews westward if the intent was allegedly to send them east. In fact, in the very early stages of the Invasion of Poland, some Germans actually put Jews on boats and sent them across the river to what would become the Soviet Zone. That makes sense. The whole BS about sending Jews westward to send them east doesn't.

https://www.google.com.ph/maps/place/Ch ... 4d18.42499



It's like the Jews from Bialystok sent WEST to Treblinka. That one never made any sense.

Well, technically southwest.

Oops, NathanC already mentioned that, that's what I get for trying to be clever.

:lol:

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Apr 22, 2017 9:57 pm

So, at this point I want to look at the evolution of the gas vans.

Herbert Lange, the original commandant of Chelmno, also conducted some of the first experimental gassings of Polish psychiatric patients at Fort VII. Originally Lange was attached to Einsatzgruppen VI during the invasion of Poland, this Einsatzgruppen murdered Polish elites considered dangerous to German interests (one of several such units who probably deserve a thread of their own). After the dissolution of this unit in November of 1939, Lange joined the Gestapo office in Poznan. He participated in the execution of Polish citizens convicted by German courts (among other duties) and later (possibly) became the commandant of the aforementioned Fort VII. I qualify that because records are lacking on this, however, he definitely was involved at Fort VII in some capacity.
(Chelmno and the Holocaust, see chapter I detailing the Euthanasia Program as background)

The first experimental gassings occurred in a sealed room at Fort VII and involved the use of Carbon Monoxide gas cylinders.
Henryk Mania, the Polish prisoner used as a Sonderkommando, described the scene:
Two trucks, loaded with people, were parked in the courtyard of Fort VII and surrounded by SS men. These people were mentally ill, you could tell by looking at them. We were ordered to take these people from the trucks to a separate bunker. The SS men supervised us, yelling and pushing. We also carried steel cylinders, like those used for oxygen, from the truck and put them near the bunker. After leading the people into the bunker and closing the iron door, the SS men ordered us to seal the door with clay, after which they took us back to our cell. After a short period of time, we were again taken to the courtyard. We were ordered to remove the clay, open the door and remove the corpses of the gassed mental patients. I found out later that the prisoners in whose cell we were placed had done this previously; they themselves told me. I carried the corpses from the bunker to the truck. After loading the truck with the corpses of the patients, we were returned to our cell. The gassing of the mental patients described above was repeated several more times [...] However, I do know that they were patients brought to Fort VII from the psychiatric hospital in Owi ń ska near Pozna ń . 19 (Henryk Mania 1967: 271.) (Chelmno and the Holocaust, page 19)


These initial experiments led to the first mobile killing vehicles. Per Montague, no documents exist for these proto-gas vehicles (unlike the later gas vans that are actually well documented). Unfortunately we only have witness statements detailing these vehicles.
Henryk Maliczak, the Fort VII prisoner and gravedigger for Sonderkommando Lange:
“This vehicle was converted for this purpose in the courtyard of the Soldier’s Home, the Gestapo headquarters in Pozna ń . Four prisoners from our group, including myself and the carpenter Józef Szyma ń ski, had to line the interior of the vehicle with plywood.” 26 (Henryk Maliczak 1967: 261. Maliczak is undoubtedly referring to Stanisław Szyma ń ski.)


Patrick Montague goes on to state that this particular vehicle was emblazoned with “Kaiser’s Kaffee Geschäft” [Kaiser’s Coffee Company], a well-known German firm, founded in 1880. As far as it can be determined there was only one such vehicle.
The vehicle was described as large, black, hermetically sealed van with the inscription “Kaiser’s Kaffee Geschäft. It used cylinders of Carbon Monoxide gas as detailed by Henryk Mania, who recalled the operation in Ko ś cian where he and twelve other prisoners, along with shovels, pickaxes and cylinders of gas, were taken to a forest to dig the graves for the patients. The Polish prisoners also carried the steel cylinders to the gas van, which were connected to a valve, and then operated by a member of the Sonderkommando. After the victims suffocated to death, the Poles emptied the van and buried the patients in pits.

So, this first van (there are some reports of a second vehicle but Montague considers them unreliable) used cylinders of Carbon Monoxide instead of exhaust. I will look at these vans in my next post.

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Apr 23, 2017 5:55 am

We have an instance where German patients were murdered by this proto-gas van:

Henryk Mania:
They were patients from a hospital or hospitals probably located in East Prussia. Therefore, they must have been Germans, although I cannot rule out that patients from around Działdowo were also involved, that is Poles. I believe the patients had been taken from the hospitals to the camp in Działdowo, from where they were transported the next day to the execution site in the forest. Here the patients were led to the special vehicle and gassed. If I remember correctly, gas cylinders were also used in this instance. The special vehicle was probably brought from Pozna ń . I cannot say how long the operation lasted or how many victims were involved.


(Chelmno and the Holocaust, page 28)

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread

Postby Hans » Sun Apr 23, 2017 7:46 am

Jeff, there will be soon a full posting on HC only on Sonderkommando Lange and its Euthanasia killings with the mobile carbon monoxide gas chamber including numerous German documents and testimonies. :)

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Apr 23, 2017 7:50 am

Hans wrote:Jeff, there will be soon a full posting on HC only on Sonderkommando Lange and its Euthanasia killings with the mobile carbon monoxide gas chamber including numerous German documents and testimonies. :)



You guys will do a much better job than I am.

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread

Postby Hans » Fri May 19, 2017 5:08 pm

Hans wrote:Jeff, there will be soon a full posting on HC only on Sonderkommando Lange and its Euthanasia killings with the mobile carbon monoxide gas chamber including numerous German documents and testimonies. :)


It's out finally:

Sonderkommando Lange in German Documents: Euthanasia 1940/41

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri May 19, 2017 5:28 pm

thanks Hans, look forward to reading it
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri May 19, 2017 6:51 pm

This is what I've been waiting for.

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread

Postby Hans » Fri May 19, 2017 7:30 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:So, at this point I want to look at the evolution of the gas vans.

Herbert Lange, the original commandant of Chelmno, also conducted some of the first experimental gassings of Polish psychiatric patients at Fort VII. Originally Lange was attached to Einsatzgruppen VI during the invasion of Poland, this Einsatzgruppen murdered Polish elites considered dangerous to German interests (one of several such units who probably deserve a thread of their own). After the dissolution of this unit in November of 1939, Lange joined the Gestapo office in Poznan. He participated in the execution of Polish citizens convicted by German courts (among other duties) and later (possibly) became the commandant of the aforementioned Fort VII. I qualify that because records are lacking on this, however, he definitely was involved at Fort VII in some capacity.


There is a German document stating that Lange was the "predecessor" of the Fort VII commandant Hans Weibrecht until 16 October 1939 (quoted in Olszewski, Fort VII w Poznaniu, p. 21), so he was indeed the (first) commandant of the site (if only for a few weeks or less).

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri May 19, 2017 10:44 pm

Picked up a copy of the Chronicle of the Lodz Ghetto. I'll add info I find in this thread.

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat May 20, 2017 9:26 pm

Hans, excellent piece, and also nice to read something at HC without as far as I can tell a single reference to HD, you've provided us with an invaluable resource, many thanks.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat May 20, 2017 10:05 pm

Yes, since this posted I'm going to pick this up again when I get a moment. Also the Lodz Ghetto account is going to be important.


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