The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Discussions
User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9227
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:50 pm

Here is a link to HC detailing more information reagarding purchases for the furnaces and other information:

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2016/08/the-jews-buried-in-little-wood-near.html?m=1
Asked to explain why they hate Jews, anti-Semites contradict themselves. Jews are always showing off; they are hermetic and secretive. They will not assimilate; they assimilate only too well. They are too religious; they are too materialistic, and a threat to religion. They are uncultured; they have too much culture. They avoid manual work; they work too hard. They are miserly; they are ostentatious spenders. They are inveterate capitalists; they are born Communists. And so on.

Hans
Poster
Posts: 314
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2012 1:25 pm

Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread

Post by Hans » Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:04 pm


Hans
Poster
Posts: 314
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2012 1:25 pm

Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread

Post by Hans » Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:10 pm

Next posting on the camp Pabianice set up for searching and sorting the luggage of the Jews murdered in Chelmno:

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.de/2017/10/sonderkommando-kulmhof-in-german.html

Hans
Poster
Posts: 314
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2012 1:25 pm

Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread

Post by Hans » Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:17 pm

Surely Holocaust deniers can explain the logistic absurdity to sent Jews with some hand luggage from Lodz to Chelmno just to waste gasoline and Diesel driven trucks to transport their luggage back to and through Lodz again. Or why the luggage could not be sorted in the Ghetto but only at a new site outside Lodz, and why the Ghetto inhibitants should not be able to identify the items sent back. Or why the people to be "resettled" had to give away their hand luggage to begin with.

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 22652
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:26 pm

The famous German propensity for order and efficiency?

Thanks Hans I look forward to reading the latest!
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

User avatar
NathanC
Regular Poster
Posts: 596
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:19 am

Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread

Post by NathanC » Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:00 pm

Hans wrote:Surely Holocaust deniers can explain the logistic absurdity to sent Jews with some hand luggage from Lodz to Chelmno just to waste gasoline and Diesel driven trucks to transport their luggage back to and through Lodz again. Or why the luggage could not be sorted in the Ghetto but only at a new site outside Lodz, and why the Ghetto inhibitants should not be able to identify the items sent back. Or why the people to be "resettled" had to give away their hand luggage to begin with.


http://www.internationalskeptics.com/fo ... count=5700

Dumbass (EtienneSC) wrote:...the vagaries of war and practicalities of railway transport....


Sorry. Just had to invoke their stupidity. It should be clear exactly what's "vague" here. ;)

User avatar
NathanC
Regular Poster
Posts: 596
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:19 am

Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread

Post by NathanC » Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:06 pm

In all seriousness though, Hans, your article is great as usual. Being from a business background, I always find it interesting to look at the Holocaust from an "accounting" perspective, and how the SS often funded the killing with the property they stole from Jews.

Hans
Poster
Posts: 314
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2012 1:25 pm

Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread

Post by Hans » Mon Oct 02, 2017 4:46 pm

NathanC wrote:In all seriousness though, Hans, your article is great as usual. Being from a business background, I always find it interesting to look at the Holocaust from an "accounting" perspective, and how the SS often funded the killing with the property they stole from Jews.


Then some good news, the next part will be just on the funding and revenue of the extermination of the Warthegau Jews, this is a draft of the summary table. So the operation of the extermination camp since March 1942 did cost roughly 1 Million RM and flushed - with its searching and sorting site in Pabianice - some 3.8 Million RM cash into the pocket. The revenue of the extermination and exploitation of the Jews was paid on a black bank account of Arthur Greiser (about 11 Million RM until the end of 1944).

table1.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 22652
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:44 pm

In THOTTC, Butz declared blithely that “The evidence for exterminations at Belzec, Chelmno, Lublin, Sobibor, and Treblinka is fairly close to zero.” Oh my.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9227
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:00 am

This thread seems to grow without my help.
:lol:

I plan to revisit once I get to the Lodz Ghetto Chronicle.
Asked to explain why they hate Jews, anti-Semites contradict themselves. Jews are always showing off; they are hermetic and secretive. They will not assimilate; they assimilate only too well. They are too religious; they are too materialistic, and a threat to religion. They are uncultured; they have too much culture. They avoid manual work; they work too hard. They are miserly; they are ostentatious spenders. They are inveterate capitalists; they are born Communists. And so on.

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 22652
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 03, 2017 3:06 am

It is difficult to express how great Hans' work on Chelmno and the Warthegau is. Amazing stuff, very informative.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9227
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Oct 03, 2017 3:38 am

Yes, there is so much documentation out there, I'm glad Hans and others ferret this stuff out.
Asked to explain why they hate Jews, anti-Semites contradict themselves. Jews are always showing off; they are hermetic and secretive. They will not assimilate; they assimilate only too well. They are too religious; they are too materialistic, and a threat to religion. They are uncultured; they have too much culture. They avoid manual work; they work too hard. They are miserly; they are ostentatious spenders. They are inveterate capitalists; they are born Communists. And so on.

Hans
Poster
Posts: 314
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2012 1:25 pm

Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread

Post by Hans » Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:09 am

Many docs - though not all, I made some new finds myself - have been cited already in Klein, Die Gettoverwaltung Litzmannstadt 1940 - 1944 and Alberti, Die Verfolgung und Vernichtung der Juden im Reichsgau Warthegau, but since the bulk of the documentation has not been used by Montague and Krakowski, it was not easily available to English speaking readers. So the series should help to close this gap.

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 22652
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 03, 2017 11:10 am

>> since the bulk of the documentation has not been used by Montague and Krakowski,

Indeed. I have read what I can find in English on Chelmno and your series is making me familiar with new documents, new to me anyway :) Great work, Hans.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

Hans
Poster
Posts: 314
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2012 1:25 pm

Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread

Post by Hans » Sat Oct 21, 2017 2:39 pm


User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9227
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:51 pm

Asked to explain why they hate Jews, anti-Semites contradict themselves. Jews are always showing off; they are hermetic and secretive. They will not assimilate; they assimilate only too well. They are too religious; they are too materialistic, and a threat to religion. They are uncultured; they have too much culture. They avoid manual work; they work too hard. They are miserly; they are ostentatious spenders. They are inveterate capitalists; they are born Communists. And so on.

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9227
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:53 pm

I changed the name of this to include things about the Lodz Ghetto. I felt it was on topic, considering that Lodz is heavily associated with Chelmno.
Asked to explain why they hate Jews, anti-Semites contradict themselves. Jews are always showing off; they are hermetic and secretive. They will not assimilate; they assimilate only too well. They are too religious; they are too materialistic, and a threat to religion. They are uncultured; they have too much culture. They avoid manual work; they work too hard. They are miserly; they are ostentatious spenders. They are inveterate capitalists; they are born Communists. And so on.

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9227
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:19 pm

A grim anniversary, on this day in 1941 the first killings took place in the extermination camp at Chelmno.
Asked to explain why they hate Jews, anti-Semites contradict themselves. Jews are always showing off; they are hermetic and secretive. They will not assimilate; they assimilate only too well. They are too religious; they are too materialistic, and a threat to religion. They are uncultured; they have too much culture. They avoid manual work; they work too hard. They are miserly; they are ostentatious spenders. They are inveterate capitalists; they are born Communists. And so on.

User avatar
Denying-History
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2087
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:01 pm

Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Post by Denying-History » Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:25 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:A grim anniversary, on this day in 1941 the first killings took place in the extermination camp at Chelmno.

Give it a few more days, then we will hit the anniversary of the order from 1941.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
Joseph E. Davies

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 22652
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Dec 24, 2017 6:54 pm

Nice, short feature on Henryk Ross in WaPo with selection of photos: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/in- ... 2000cceeea
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

User avatar
NathanC
Regular Poster
Posts: 596
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:19 am

Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Post by NathanC » Sun Dec 24, 2017 6:57 pm

Merry Christmas, and to our Jewish readers, Happy Hanukkah

I first saw this on the news in 2009, and since I was starting to get interested in combating HD, my first thought was "This proves that the gas vans and chambers using CO can work". It's a really old story about how makeshift Gas vans - really just metal boxes connected to an exhaust pipe via a hose - were used to euthanize stray/unclaimed dogs. Here's a link to the story with an embedded video. Bear in mind that the footage might be disturbing; I had to mute it to be able to watch the thing

http://www.paws.org.ph/news/tambucho-killing-deleted

The video shows two things that are relevant to our discussion:

1) CO is poisonous, definitely, but the suffocation caused by the CO is also a factor when considering the use of CO in gas chambers.

2) The video shows the dead dogs being removed from the Gas van. The video is low res, but there are some pale/white dogs that are being pulled out, and they don't show the "cherry red" that Berg and others waste a lot of time bitching about. Dogs aren't people, true, but as mammals the biology should be similar enough to draw conclusions. Either the suffocation got to them before the poisoning did (which is what the video suggests), or, As Roberto pointed out, the dogs weren't healthy and couldn't exhibit the cherry red staining. The latter is quite likely since these are strays we're talking about.

Hope this is helpful.

User avatar
Denying-History
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2087
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:01 pm

Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Post by Denying-History » Sun Dec 24, 2017 11:15 pm

Are you sure that dogs would display the same effects as humans?

Edit:

Looks like they do:

Venous blood is classically described as "cherry red" because of the presence of high venous blood pO2; however, this color rapidly changes after death.

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/toxicology/cyanide-poisoning/overview-of-cyanide-poisoning
Last edited by Denying-History on Mon Dec 25, 2017 10:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
Joseph E. Davies

User avatar
NathanC
Regular Poster
Posts: 596
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:19 am

Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Post by NathanC » Mon Dec 25, 2017 1:39 am

Well, the literature I've read about CO poisoning on dogs and other animals suggests that the effects and symptoms should generally be the same. CO kills because it combines with hemoglobin to produce carboxyhaemoglobin, which reduces oxygen flow to the heart and other organs. This is true for people, dogs, pigs, etc.

The "cherry red" discoloration is apparently due to high levels of carboxyhaemoglobin being produced due to the CO exposure. The fact of the matter is that in this case where dogs are on video being euthanized with CO, they clearly don't have the discoloration. I'm more convinced of Roberto's position; the discoloration isn't immediately or clearly visible, or can be influenced by other factors like the health of the victims. It could also be that they suffocated rather than succumbing to CO poisoning.

white dog.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
Denying-History
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2087
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:01 pm

Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Post by Denying-History » Mon Dec 25, 2017 2:07 am

NathanC wrote:I'm more convinced of Roberto's position; the discoloration isn't immediately or clearly visible, or can be influenced by other factors like the health of the victims.


Mind that Berg would just argue that the signs should become visable at one point... So bury corpses for a week, he would argue they would be dug up red. The way I see it is that those inside of the gas chambers didn't just die of carbon monoxide, this is why we have some reports of death by asphyxiation. A 1998 study on the bright red discoloration noted that it was a rare occurence, and notes that most doctors will overestimate its occurence. Kueless off the top of my head quotes form an article from the 1980's quotes a book of toxicology that says something quite similar.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
Joseph E. Davies

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9227
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Dec 25, 2017 2:58 am

Denying-History wrote:Mind that Berg would just argue that the signs should become visable at one point... So bury corpses for a week, he would argue they would be dug up red.



That’s a silly argument from Berg, though I agree he would say it. By that time decomposition would set it in, whatever color the corpses were going in would be unrecognizable.
Asked to explain why they hate Jews, anti-Semites contradict themselves. Jews are always showing off; they are hermetic and secretive. They will not assimilate; they assimilate only too well. They are too religious; they are too materialistic, and a threat to religion. They are uncultured; they have too much culture. They avoid manual work; they work too hard. They are miserly; they are ostentatious spenders. They are inveterate capitalists; they are born Communists. And so on.

User avatar
Denying-History
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2087
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:01 pm

Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Post by Denying-History » Mon Dec 25, 2017 5:36 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:Mind that Berg would just argue that the signs should become visible at one point... So bury corpses for a week, he would argue they would be dug up red.



That’s a silly argument from Berg, though I agree he would say it. By that time decomposition would set it in, whatever color the corpses were going in would be unrecognizable.

Mind I have no studies on the decomposition of corpses in sands similar to Treblinka. So who are we to say that he would be wrong.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
Joseph E. Davies

User avatar
NathanC
Regular Poster
Posts: 596
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:19 am

Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Post by NathanC » Mon Dec 25, 2017 8:05 am

Denying-History wrote:
NathanC wrote:I'm more convinced of Roberto's position; the discoloration isn't immediately or clearly visible, or can be influenced by other factors like the health of the victims.


Mind that Berg would just argue that the signs should become visable at one point... So bury corpses for a week, he would argue they would be dug up red. The way I see it is that those inside of the gas chambers didn't just die of carbon monoxide, this is why we have some reports of death by asphyxiation. A 1998 study on the bright red discoloration noted that it was a rare occurence, and notes that most doctors will overestimate its occurence. Kueless off the top of my head quotes form an article from the 1980's quotes a book of toxicology that says something quite similar.


Yeah that’s probably the case. Although IIRC Berg and Smith’s position was that the cherry red would be visible immediately, and that the witnesses lied because they either didn’t notice or comment on it. Insisting now that the cherry red would be available after a week after exhumation would make them look like the dishonest cowards that they are.

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 22652
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Dec 25, 2017 8:25 am

Denying-History wrote:
NathanC wrote:I'm more convinced of Roberto's position; the discoloration isn't immediately or clearly visible, or can be influenced by other factors like the health of the victims.


Mind that Berg would just argue that the signs should become visable at one print.

In this thread the cherry red was described as appearing almost immediately (“within minutes”) based on Berg’s website: viewtopic.php?f=39&t=18857&hilit=Lividity&start=360
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

User avatar
Denying-History
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2087
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:01 pm

Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Post by Denying-History » Mon Dec 25, 2017 9:57 am

NathanC wrote:Yeah that’s probably the case. Although IIRC Berg and Smith’s position was that the cherry red would be visible immediately, and that the witnesses lied because they either didn’t notice or comment on it. Insisting now that the cherry red would be available after a week after exhumation would make them look like the dishonest cowards that they are.


Its all dependant on when the cherry red discoloration starts to form. They imply it would be every victim, which is not true.

Statistical Mechanic wrote:In this thread the cherry red was described as appearing almost immediately (“within minutes”) based on Berg’s website: viewtopic.php?f=39&t=18857&hilit=Lividity&start=360


Yeah, but if what Nessie says is true, my guess as to where Burg would go seems correct.

That takes between 20 minutes to 3 hours before it starts to appear, it appears first as patches, it is delayed by moving the body as the blood cannot settle. It takes between 6 and 12 hours to full form.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
Joseph E. Davies

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 22652
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Dec 25, 2017 2:07 pm

Ok but if so, as NathanC says, then Berg has changed the science to match his wishes as 2+ years ago he and his ilk laid down a marker and were vehement that the coloration appeared “within minutes.” Berg’s claim IMO has long since jumped the shark. Squirming about his basics won’t help his case.

Just FYI, his webpage Nazigassings.com still says this, exactly as it was years ago, with no wiggle room on the “within minutes”:
The Corpses would have been RED — all of the “eyewitnesses” lied!

If any holocaust gassing claims were true, vast numbers of bright, cherry RED corpses would have always been present among the victims. Not necessarily all of the corpses would have been red--but certainly large numbers, probably the vast majority, would have been intensely red in appearance from cyanide or carbon monoxide and would have been remembered that way long after the war. That intense red coloring would have appeared within minutes of death, in the hypostasis and even in the pre-hypostasis condition, and would have remained present for several days at least.

Gross color highlighting not retained
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9227
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Dec 25, 2017 11:50 pm

Berg sat in it with this article:

http://nazigassings.com/RisserBoenschSchneider.html

Berg thought this made his point, however, the article points out that only 61% of trained coroners could recognize the signs of carbon monoxide poisoning. It also pointed out that certain conditions might prevent the “cherry-red” coloration, including a lower % of carboxyhemoglobin level (below 31%). It required a careful examination of the naked body at the death scene in order to recognize these signs.

I wonder if the SS allowed the SK’s at the scene to carefully examine nude bodies in order to determine the cause of death.....

Here is our original conversation at RODOH:

https://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2823&start=680

I’m not sure but I don’t think Fritz likes me.
Asked to explain why they hate Jews, anti-Semites contradict themselves. Jews are always showing off; they are hermetic and secretive. They will not assimilate; they assimilate only too well. They are too religious; they are too materialistic, and a threat to religion. They are uncultured; they have too much culture. They avoid manual work; they work too hard. They are miserly; they are ostentatious spenders. They are inveterate capitalists; they are born Communists. And so on.

User avatar
NathanC
Regular Poster
Posts: 596
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:19 am

Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Post by NathanC » Tue Dec 26, 2017 12:41 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Ok but if so, as NathanC says, then Berg has changed the science to match his wishes as 2+ years ago he and his ilk laid down a marker and were vehement that the coloration appeared “within minutes.” Berg’s claim IMO has long since jumped the shark. Squirming about his basics won’t help his case.

Just FYI, his webpage Nazigassings.com still says this, exactly as it was years ago, with no wiggle room on the “within minutes”:
The Corpses would have been RED — all of the “eyewitnesses” lied!

If any holocaust gassing claims were true, vast numbers of bright, cherry RED corpses would have always been present among the victims. Not necessarily all of the corpses would have been red--but certainly large numbers, probably the vast majority, would have been intensely red in appearance from cyanide or carbon monoxide and would have been remembered that way long after the war. That intense red coloring would have appeared within minutes of death, in the hypostasis and even in the pre-hypostasis condition, and would have remained present for several days at least.

Gross color highlighting not retained


That's not what my example demonstrated though. I consider the matter closed. The "intensely red" that Berg Bitches about does not always necessary happen right away. Berg can holler and change his position all he wants; it won't change a thing

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9227
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Dec 26, 2017 1:19 am

Denying-History wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:Mind that Berg would just argue that the signs should become visible at one point... So bury corpses for a week, he would argue they would be dug up red.



That’s a silly argument from Berg, though I agree he would say it. By that time decomposition would set it in, whatever color the corpses were going in would be unrecognizable.

Mind I have no studies on the decomposition of corpses in sands similar to Treblinka. So who are we to say that he would be wrong.


I glanced very briefly through some stuff on-line.


I don’t know about mass graves but the literature indicates that drier soils slows decomposition whereas moist soil increases it. I’m not sure what would happen in a mass grave but decomposition is only one factor, some others are weight and gravity.

So, while maybe corpses at the top may show redness I doubt that traumatized men pulling corpses out of mass graves would even notice such a thing. Also, like I posted above, the redness may not be noticeable.
Asked to explain why they hate Jews, anti-Semites contradict themselves. Jews are always showing off; they are hermetic and secretive. They will not assimilate; they assimilate only too well. They are too religious; they are too materialistic, and a threat to religion. They are uncultured; they have too much culture. They avoid manual work; they work too hard. They are miserly; they are ostentatious spenders. They are inveterate capitalists; they are born Communists. And so on.

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9227
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Dec 26, 2017 1:20 am

BTW, that’s not what I wanted to read about on Christmas Day.
Asked to explain why they hate Jews, anti-Semites contradict themselves. Jews are always showing off; they are hermetic and secretive. They will not assimilate; they assimilate only too well. They are too religious; they are too materialistic, and a threat to religion. They are uncultured; they have too much culture. They avoid manual work; they work too hard. They are miserly; they are ostentatious spenders. They are inveterate capitalists; they are born Communists. And so on.

User avatar
NathanC
Regular Poster
Posts: 596
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:19 am

Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Post by NathanC » Tue Dec 26, 2017 2:03 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:BTW, that’s not what I wanted to read about on Christmas Day.


Sorry about that. I thought this would be helpful and clarify/refute Berg's fantasies about "Cherry red".

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9227
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:01 am

NathanC wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:BTW, that’s not what I wanted to read about on Christmas Day.


Sorry about that. I thought this would be helpful and clarify/refute Berg's fantasies about "Cherry red".


Sorry, talking about D-H and Berg’s obsession with cherry-red corpses.
Asked to explain why they hate Jews, anti-Semites contradict themselves. Jews are always showing off; they are hermetic and secretive. They will not assimilate; they assimilate only too well. They are too religious; they are too materialistic, and a threat to religion. They are uncultured; they have too much culture. They avoid manual work; they work too hard. They are miserly; they are ostentatious spenders. They are inveterate capitalists; they are born Communists. And so on.

Balmoral95
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2320
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 4:14 am
Location: The Free Nambia Healthcare Nirvana

Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Post by Balmoral95 » Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:09 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
NathanC wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:BTW, that’s not what I wanted to read about on Christmas Day.


Sorry about that. I thought this would be helpful and clarify/refute Berg's fantasies about "Cherry red".


Sorry, talking about D-H and Berg’s obsession with cherry-red corpses.


Gents, this subject is well covered by Roberto at HC.

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9227
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Dec 26, 2017 2:54 pm

Balmoral95 wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
NathanC wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:BTW, that’s not what I wanted to read about on Christmas Day.


Sorry about that. I thought this would be helpful and clarify/refute Berg's fantasies about "Cherry red".


Sorry, talking about D-H and Berg’s obsession with cherry-red corpses.


Gents, this subject is well covered by Roberto at HC.


True. One thing from Berg’s article that stuck out is the 31% carboxyhemoglobin line, Roberto mentioned that sick prisoners that were malnourished would have a lower oxygenation amounts, leading to this lower carboxyhemoglobin level.
Asked to explain why they hate Jews, anti-Semites contradict themselves. Jews are always showing off; they are hermetic and secretive. They will not assimilate; they assimilate only too well. They are too religious; they are too materialistic, and a threat to religion. They are uncultured; they have too much culture. They avoid manual work; they work too hard. They are miserly; they are ostentatious spenders. They are inveterate capitalists; they are born Communists. And so on.

Hans
Poster
Posts: 314
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2012 1:25 pm

Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Post by Hans » Wed Dec 27, 2017 5:25 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Nice, short feature on Henryk Ross in WaPo with selection of photos: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/in- ... 2000cceeea


"In 1942, nearly 20,000 were deported to the death camp of Chelmno; in 1944, 70,000 were sent to Auschwitz."

huh?

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 22652
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:05 pm

Thanks for catching that whilst I looked at the photos! They missed both by a zillion. I will email WaPo - the numbers I have are IIRC ‘42 - ca 70,00 and ‘44 - ca 7,100 to Chelmno - I have to look up the Auschwitz number for ‘44.

OK, I looked up these figures in my notes - see post after Jeffk's
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Wed Dec 27, 2017 7:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

Post Reply