The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread

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The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:59 pm

I want to discuss the Chelmno Extermination Camp, it has always fascinated me as the first extermination camp the Germans set up to murder Jews. It's the only camp to exclusively use gas vans to murder Jews.


So, briefly, a history of Chelmno:

The mass killings began on December the 8th, 1941. The Germans utilized a manor house as a base rather than constructing a building or buildings like they would in the Action Reinhard Camps or Auschwitz-Birkenau.
The initial killing phase stretched from December of 1941 until the Spring of 1943. The Germans blew up the manor house on April the 7th, 1943.
Unique among the death camps the Germans reactivated Chelmno to eliminate the remnants of the Lodz Ghetto, resuming operations in June of 1944 until the camp closed for good in January of 1945, right before the Red Army liberated the site. Transports to Chelmno itself stopped in July of 1944, later transports from Lodz went directly to Auschwitz-Birkenau. When the camp reopened in June of 1944 new barracks were built to temporarily hold Jewish loot and workers, plus the Jewish Sonderkommando.

A list of transports, per Montague:
This is the list of transports for Chelmno, per Montague:

1941 Dec. 7 Koło 700
Dec. 8 Koło 700
Dec. 9 Koło 700
Dec. 10 Koło 700
Dec. 11 Koło 700
Dec. 14 7 D ą bie 975
Dec. (second half) Dobra 1,100
1942 Jan. 2–9 Łód ź (Roma) 4,300
Jan. 10, 12 Kłodawa 1,000
Jan. 13 Bugaj 600
Jan. 14–15 Izbica Kujawska 1,000
Jan. 16–29 Łód ź 10,003
Feb. 2 Sompolno 1,000
Feb. 22–28 Łód ź 7,025
Mar. 1–31 Łód ź 24,699
Mar. 2 Kro ś niewice 900
Mar. 3 Ż ychlin 3,200
Mar. (first half) Ozorków 500
Mar. (second half) Podd ę bice 2,008
Mar. 26 8 Kutno 6,000
Apr. 1–2 Łód ź 2,349 9
Apr. 10 Grabów 1,240
Apr. 10–11 Ł ę czyca 1,750
Apr. 16–17 10 Gostynin 2,000
Apr. 16–17 11 G ą bin 2,150
Apr. 17 Sanniki 250
Apr. 22 Osi ę ciny 300
Apr. (mid-month) 12 Brze ś ć Kujawski < 200
13 Apr. (mid-month) Piotrków Kujawski < 550
Apr. 30–May 2 Włocławek 3,500
May 4–15 Łód ź 10,914
May 17–18 Pabianice 4,000
May 19–20 14 Brzeziny 3,000
May 22 15 Ozorków 300
June 10–11 Radziejów Kujawski 630
July 20 Czachulec 10,000
16 July (end) Lutomiersk 750
Aug. 11–13 17 Bełchatów 4,953
Aug. 14 Szadek 450
Aug. 22 Sieradz 1,400
Aug. 22–24 Warta 1,353
Aug. 24–28 Łask 2,600
18 Aug. 19 (last week) Wielu ń 10,000
Aug. 25–26 20 Zdu ń ska Wola ń 10,900
Sept. 1–2, 7–12 Łód ź 15,685
21 Sept. 14 22 Zelów 6,000

1944 June 23 Łód ź 562
June 26 Łód ź 912
June 28 Łód ź 803
June 30 Łód ź 700
July 3 Łód ź 700
July 5 Łód ź 709
July 7 Łód ź 700
July 10 Łód ź 700
July 12 Łód ź 700
July 14 Łód ź 700
Total for 1941–43: 165,034
Total for 1944: 7,196
Grand Total: 172,230

The number of dead is accepted to be around 152,000, though I've seen numbers higher than this. I think 152,000 is as close as we are going to get.
Last edited by Jeffk 1970 on Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: The Chelmno Thread

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:00 pm

Some witness statements regarding Chelmno, these men are not Jewish:
We have Henry Mania, a Pole originally used as a Sonderkommando at Fort VII. He worked at Chelmno and testified about Jewish Czech children murdered at the camp, about an attempted escape by Jews in May of 1942 (unsuccessfully) and about the first gas van used at Chelmno that used bottled Carbon Monoxide (the German Forester Heinz May also talked about a van that used bottled Carbon Monoxide). The Poles eventually convicted him in 2001 for complicity in genocide. Heinz May, mentioned above, the German Forester for the region, also witnessed machinery brought in the camp in the Spring of 1942, a subsequent order to camouflage the graves by planting trees over them in the Spring of 1942 and also testified to the issues with the graves starting in the Summer of 1942. The heat caused the bodies to swell. May stated that a strong odor began to permeate the area and that he saw bulges in the earth where the bodies were swelling up. May also stated that to solve this problem the burning of bodies began with Paul Blobel visiting the area and experimenting with different ways to burn the bodies. May ordered wood for this. He also witnessed the fire pits used to burn bodies. He described them as circular holes about three meters deep with a diameter of four meters ringed with stones.

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Re: The Chelmno Thread

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:01 pm

Per this document, by June of 1942, 97,000 have been "processed." Note that the document details technical issues encountered and the steps taken to correct the technical issues:
https://web.archive.org/web/20150325081 ... zialwagen/

"Kulmhof" is the German word for the Chelmno Extermination Camp.

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Re: The Chelmno Thread

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:02 pm

Per this document, by June of 1942, 97,000 have been "processed." Note that the document details technical issues encountered and the steps taken to correct the technical issues:
https://web.archive.org/web/20150325081 ... zialwagen/

"Kulmhof" is the German word for the Chelmno Extermination Camp.


Just to add to this, the Germans themselves stated that the vans could hold:
nine to ten per square meter


Charles Provan, in his experiments, found this to be easily obtainable:
http://holocaust.skeptik.net/documents/ ... stein.html

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Re: The Chelmno Thread

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:03 pm

A Pole, Jozef Piaskowski, detailed to fix a gas van described it:
I was entrusted with its repair. The smaller van left. During the repairs, two guards watched me, not allowing me to examine the construction of the van. I have been a mechanic since 1928. I have driven various types of vehicles and have a lot of experience in gauging the size of vehicles. The van that I repaired was about two meters 30 centimeters high, about 5.5 meters long and two meters wide, maybe a little more. I figure it could carry about 80 to 100 people at a time. The doors of the van, in the back, were locked and bolted. In the cab were two military-type gas masks. The exterior walls were not made of sheet metal but were wooden, made of tongue and groove boards (like furniture vans). I didn’t notice any markings or inscriptions. The engine was huge. Repairing the radiator, I looked under the van and saw that the exhaust pipe was specially constructed. In particular, more or less half way down the van, about a one-meter section of the exhaust pipe was flexible, like a hydraulic hose [ w ą ż hydrauliczny ]. This flexible part of the exhaust pipe could be screwed into the end section of the exhaust pipe so that the exhaust gas would be led out, as in all normal vehicles. It was also possible to screw the flexible part of the pipe into a hole in the floor of the van. Then, the exhaust gas went into the van. 39


A second Pole, Bronisław Falborski, described it in this fashion:
[T]he van was black and box-shaped. The roof was almost flat and met the sidewalls at nearly right angles. It seems to me that it was covered with sheet metal, but I’m not sure about this. I didn’t look at the motor and I didn’t notice the make of the van. The doors were locked and bolted. The vehicle was guarded and we weren’t allowed to look at its construction. [...] The repair consisted of changing a gasket between the flexible part of the exhaust pipe and the part leading inside the van. The exhaust pipe was not normal. Instead of a single pipe, it was composed of three sections. The middle one was flexible like a hydraulic hose. This middle section of the exhaust pipe could be connected with the pipe going to the floor so that the gas would flow into the van. When it was connected to the end pipe, it would function as a normal exhaust pipe. When it was brought in for repairs the pipe was connected to go inside the van. However, the gasket between the two couplers was worn out and I was instructed to change it. I changed the gasket, installing an asbestos one, and fastened the couplers with four screws. 40


Both quotes are from Montague, pgs. 206-209.

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Re: The Chelmno Thread

Postby Denying-History » Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:04 pm

If you want a specific figure for Jews, Stephen E. Atkins gives one in his book "Holocaust Denial as an International Movement" on page 75. (152,676 Jews) It seems to be an acceptable precise minimum, though he provides no citation for it.

Now what exactly were you looking to discuss about Chelmno?
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Re: The Chelmno Thread

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:07 pm

Denying-History wrote:If you want a specific figure for Jews, Stephen E. Atkins gives one in his book "Holocaust Denial as an International Movement" on page 75. (152,676 Jews) It seems to be an acceptable precise minimum, though he provides no citation for it.

Now what exactly were you looking to discuss about Chelmno?


Just a general discussion to start with. I'm always looking for information about it, I'm hoping that others will have additional information that I don't know about.

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Re: The Chelmno Thread

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:09 pm

Denying-History wrote:If you want a specific figure for Jews, Stephen E. Atkins gives one in his book "Holocaust Denial as an International Movement" on page 75. (152,676 Jews) It seems to be an acceptable precise minimum, though he provides no citation for it.


I agree the number is about 152,000 dead, the other numbers I've seen look too high. Montague places the number of deported Jews at over 170,000, I think a lower, more conservative number is best.

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Re: The Chelmno Thread

Postby Denying-History » Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:11 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:If you want a specific figure for Jews, Stephen E. Atkins gives one in his book "Holocaust Denial as an International Movement" on page 75. (152,676 Jews) It seems to be an acceptable precise minimum, though he provides no citation for it.

Now what exactly were you looking to discuss about Chelmno?


Just a general discussion to start with. I'm always looking for information about it, I'm hoping that others will have additional information that I don't know about.
To my understanding, we basically have the same amount of reading on the camp (being boiled down to HC's articles and Chelmno and the Holocaust by Montague). So sadly I don't have much input outside of points outlined in Gotz Aly's Final Solution, which I may transcribe some of the changes listed in the book on Chelmno if you would like.
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Re: The Chelmno Thread

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:14 pm

Back in '13 at Rodoh6666, been-there, after introducing Łódź ghetto as a discussion point, refused to discuss Łódź and the Chełmno connection, here.
Nazism conspired to create a sense of festival time. . . . Tragically for humanity, the party generating it was the type not associated with the coloured costumes of the Brazilian Carnival, but with the brown-shirted thuggery of the NSDAP. The contrast between the dance and the march, between the samba and the strains of the Horst Wessel Lied, points to the gulf separating a life-asserting community from a community which exists only by creating a demonized other. - RG '97

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Re: The Chelmno Thread

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:14 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:If you want a specific figure for Jews, Stephen E. Atkins gives one in his book "Holocaust Denial as an International Movement" on page 75. (152,676 Jews) It seems to be an acceptable precise minimum, though he provides no citation for it.


I agree the number is about 152,000 dead, the other numbers I've seen look too high. Montague places the number of deported Jews at over 170,000, I think a lower, more conservative number is best.

Where specifically is Montague mistaken?
Nazism conspired to create a sense of festival time. . . . Tragically for humanity, the party generating it was the type not associated with the coloured costumes of the Brazilian Carnival, but with the brown-shirted thuggery of the NSDAP. The contrast between the dance and the march, between the samba and the strains of the Horst Wessel Lied, points to the gulf separating a life-asserting community from a community which exists only by creating a demonized other. - RG '97

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Re: The Chelmno Thread

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:33 pm

Denying-History wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:If you want a specific figure for Jews, Stephen E. Atkins gives one in his book "Holocaust Denial as an International Movement" on page 75. (152,676 Jews) It seems to be an acceptable precise minimum, though he provides no citation for it.

Now what exactly were you looking to discuss about Chelmno?


Just a general discussion to start with. I'm always looking for information about it, I'm hoping that others will have additional information that I don't know about.
To my understanding, we basically have the same amount of reading on the camp (being boiled down to HC's articles and Chelmno and the Holocaust by Montague). So sadly I don't have much input outside of points outlined in Gotz Aly's Final Solution, which I may transcribe some of the changes listed in the book on Chelmno if you would like.



Sure, Aly's book is one I don't have.

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Re: The Chelmno Thread

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:48 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:If you want a specific figure for Jews, Stephen E. Atkins gives one in his book "Holocaust Denial as an International Movement" on page 75. (152,676 Jews) It seems to be an acceptable precise minimum, though he provides no citation for it.


I agree the number is about 152,000 dead, the other numbers I've seen look too high. Montague places the number of deported Jews at over 170,000, I think a lower, more conservative number is best.

Where specifically is Montague mistaken?


This from Nick Terry:
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Re: Number of Jewish Dead
Tue Jul 26, 2016 3:18 pm

Unless you've read Montague's book and understand the sources he uses to produce his calculation, you shouldn't uncritically accept the higher number.

Deportations to Chelmno are recorded statistically by Nazi documents in many cases, especially the deportations out of the Lodz ghetto. We also have hard numbers from documents for some provincial towns in the Warthegau. But for other towns we have rougher estimates. On the other hand, we have the Korherr figure of 145,000. This likely excluded the up to 5000 gypsies deported to Chelmno.

Compared to Montague's checksum of documents and estimates, applying the documented Korherr figure acknowledges the tendency of witnesses and underground observers not privy to the exact numbers counted by the Nazis to overestimate ever so slightly by rounding up; instead of knowing it was 1,815 deportees, they say 2000, that sort of thing. The same recalibration can be done with the Hoefle telegram figures versus the additions of different estimates for deportations to Belzec and so on.

From mid-September 1942 onwards there were essentially no transports to Chelmno until 1944; a few small groups from forced labour camps is all that seems likely; there was a transport from the Lodz ghetto in early 1943 that essentially vanishes, most likely into Auschwitz, because the clean-up at Chelmno was fairly well advanced and there's really no corroboration from there that this transport went to Chelmno. The 1944 deportations are known precisely with again, 1-2 minuscule final contingents.

Therefore 152,000 is the hard-documented number of victims who were Jewish; anything higher is fuzzy at best and not really very reliable since the difference comes from reports by eyewitnesses, who tend as mentioned to round up.

Montague himself acknowledges this point, so he'd likely not be hung up on people apparently rejecting an increase of 10,000 over the number accepted by the Bonn court in the Chelmno trial, based on adding the 1942 and 1944 statistics. Besides, the actual death toll for all victims including the Roma and Sinti is close to 157,000.

Also worth noting: shootings during deportation operations in the summer of 1942 across the Warthegau were somewhat more numerous than you might think; added together several thousand Jews were simply shot on the spot where they lived. This is a recurring phenomenon across Poland, with eastern Galicia occupying a virtual halfway house between west and east over the course of 1941 to 1943: about half deported to Belzec; half shot.

More Polish Jews living in the annexed territories and Government-General were killed in mass shootings than died in either Chelmno or Sobibor.


Probably need to be specific and say the number of Jewish dead versus the death toll for the camp in general. 152,000 as a total of Jewish dead with the higher number including non-Jews like Roma.

BTW, in case some of my replies are a little loopy it's because I took some Benadryl a couple of hours ago (I have the day off from work). Probably not the best time to start a new thread... :lol:

Edited for clarity, kinda struggling here...

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Re: The Chelmno Thread

Postby Xcalibur » Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:58 pm

BTW, in case some of my replies are a little loopy it's because I took some Benadryl a couple of hours ago (I have the day off from work). Probably not the best time to start a new thread... :lol:



I'm on the Benadryl today as well. SSF Pillheads and Acidheads unite!

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Re: The Chelmno Thread

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:00 pm

LOL


Yes, a few hours ago my allergies walked up and smacked me on top of my head. Coughing, sneezing, the works. I figured since I didn't have to go anywhere....

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Re: The Chelmno Thread

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:14 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:If you want a specific figure for Jews, Stephen E. Atkins gives one in his book "Holocaust Denial as an International Movement" on page 75. (152,676 Jews) It seems to be an acceptable precise minimum, though he provides no citation for it.


I agree the number is about 152,000 dead, the other numbers I've seen look too high. Montague places the number of deported Jews at over 170,000, I think a lower, more conservative number is best.

Where specifically is Montague mistaken?


This from Nick Terry:
nickterry
Regular Poster
Re: Number of Jewish Dead
Tue Jul 26, 2016 3:18 pm

Unless you've read Montague's book and understand the sources he uses to produce his calculation, you shouldn't uncritically accept the higher number.

Deportations to Chelmno are recorded statistically by Nazi documents in many cases, especially the deportations out of the Lodz ghetto. We also have hard numbers from documents for some provincial towns in the Warthegau. But for other towns we have rougher estimates. On the other hand, we have the Korherr figure of 145,000. This likely excluded the up to 5000 gypsies deported to Chelmno.

Compared to Montague's checksum of documents and estimates, applying the documented Korherr figure acknowledges the tendency of witnesses and underground observers not privy to the exact numbers counted by the Nazis to overestimate ever so slightly by rounding up; instead of knowing it was 1,815 deportees, they say 2000, that sort of thing. The same recalibration can be done with the Hoefle telegram figures versus the additions of different estimates for deportations to Belzec and so on.

From mid-September 1942 onwards there were essentially no transports to Chelmno until 1944; a few small groups from forced labour camps is all that seems likely; there was a transport from the Lodz ghetto in early 1943 that essentially vanishes, most likely into Auschwitz, because the clean-up at Chelmno was fairly well advanced and there's really no corroboration from there that this transport went to Chelmno. The 1944 deportations are known precisely with again, 1-2 minuscule final contingents.

Therefore 152,000 is the hard-documented number of victims who were Jewish; anything higher is fuzzy at best and not really very reliable since the difference comes from reports by eyewitnesses, who tend as mentioned to round up.

Montague himself acknowledges this point, so he'd likely not be hung up on people apparently rejecting an increase of 10,000 over the number accepted by the Bonn court in the Chelmno trial, based on adding the 1942 and 1944 statistics. Besides, the actual death toll for all victims including the Roma and Sinti is close to 157,000.

Also worth noting: shootings during deportation operations in the summer of 1942 across the Warthegau were somewhat more numerous than you might think; added together several thousand Jews were simply shot on the spot where they lived. This is a recurring phenomenon across Poland, with eastern Galicia occupying a virtual halfway house between west and east over the course of 1941 to 1943: about half deported to Belzec; half shot.

More Polish Jews living in the annexed territories and Government-General were killed in mass shootings than died in either Chelmno or Sobibor.


Probably need to be specific and say the number of Jewish dead versus the death toll for the camp in general. 152,000 as a total of Jewish dead with the higher number including non-Jews like Roma.

BTW, in case some of my replies are a little loopy it's because I took some Benadryl a couple of hours ago (I have the day off from work). Probably not the best time to start a new thread... :lol:

Edited for clarity, kinda struggling here...

Thanks I'd forgotten Nick's point. So it's not just LSD, it's Benadryl too! Tsk tsk
Nazism conspired to create a sense of festival time. . . . Tragically for humanity, the party generating it was the type not associated with the coloured costumes of the Brazilian Carnival, but with the brown-shirted thuggery of the NSDAP. The contrast between the dance and the march, between the samba and the strains of the Horst Wessel Lied, points to the gulf separating a life-asserting community from a community which exists only by creating a demonized other. - RG '97

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Re: The Chelmno Thread

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:20 pm

Figures for the Lodz Ghetto:
May 1st, 1940-163,177 (Ghetto sealed)
March 31st, 1941-150,436
May 1st, 1941-148,547
After this point numbers increased again due to German, Austrian and Bohemian Jews transported to the ghetto, 19,883 total.
January 1st, 1942-104,469
January 16th, 1942-Transports to Chelmno begin, 55,000 total by the end of May.
June 1st, 1942-104,469
15,000 are rounded up starting in September of 1942
January 19th, 1943-87,164
July 1st, 1943-84,495
February 8th, 1944-79,777
July 1st, 1944-73,217
The final liquidation of the Ghetto begins on June 23rd.
January 19th, 1945-877

Numbers are reproduced from "Why? Explaining the Holocaust," chapter on Jewish resistance, Chapter 5.

The Kindle version for some reason doesn't footnote, I did find in the notes portion of the book footnote 181, Lodz Ghetto population, Dobroszycki Chronicle, xxxix, Horowitz Ghettoland 335 and Trunk, Lodz, xxx.

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Re: The Chelmno Thread

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:25 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Thanks I'd forgotten Nick's point. So it's not just LSD, it's Benadryl too! Tsk tsk



If you take both and watch Disney's Fantasia it gives the whole movie a different meaning.

:lol:

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Re: The Chelmno Thread

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Apr 11, 2017 1:12 am

LOL
Nazism conspired to create a sense of festival time. . . . Tragically for humanity, the party generating it was the type not associated with the coloured costumes of the Brazilian Carnival, but with the brown-shirted thuggery of the NSDAP. The contrast between the dance and the march, between the samba and the strains of the Horst Wessel Lied, points to the gulf separating a life-asserting community from a community which exists only by creating a demonized other. - RG '97

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Re: The Chelmno Thread

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:58 pm

I realize I'm sort of doing this in a somewhat haphazard manner but I'm pulling sources as I remember them.

From the forester Heinz May (Hitler's Empire, Chapter the Final Solution: The Jewish Question, pg. 381, by Mark Mazowar):
May describes where he and his son came across a disabled gas van:
My son got out of our truck and walked over to a group of men in police uniforms who were bustling about the vehicle.
.....the truck in the ditch was about four meters in length and about two meters high. It's rear doors was closed with an iron bolt from which a padlock hung. A definitely unpleasant smell came from the truck and from the men standing around it.


May contacted the Forest Constable Stagemeir, who told him that the area around precinct 77 was surrounded by military police. When Stagemeir attempted to approach the area he was warned not to enter and the sentries threatened to shoot him.

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Re: The Chelmno Thread

Postby Oozy_Substance » Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:11 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:Per this document, by June of 1942, 97,000 have been "processed." Note that the document details technical issues encountered and the steps taken to correct the technical issues:
https://web.archive.org/web/20150325081 ... zialwagen/

"Kulmhof" is the German word for the Chelmno Extermination Camp.


I showed this document to some German and he claims this document is fake because of the word "Einzigste".
Too bad I don't speak German, so I can't really discuss about this kind of topics.
Does anyone have clarifications about this word?

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Re: The Chelmno Thread

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:29 am

Oozy_Substance wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:Per this document, by June of 1942, 97,000 have been "processed." Note that the document details technical issues encountered and the steps taken to correct the technical issues:
https://web.archive.org/web/20150325081 ... zialwagen/

"Kulmhof" is the German word for the Chelmno Extermination Camp.


I showed this document to some German and he claims this document is fake because of the word "Einzigste".
Too bad I don't speak German, so I can't really discuss about this kind of topics.
Does anyone have clarifications about this word?


:lol:

That's funny.

No, it's not fake.

HC did something on this document, I'll find it for you in a bit.

Oozy, I'll give you a list of documents about gas vans. You can show them to your denier. Better yet, invite your denier here.

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Re: The Chelmno Thread

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:12 pm

Oozy_Substance wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:Per this document, by June of 1942, 97,000 have been "processed." Note that the document details technical issues encountered and the steps taken to correct the technical issues:
https://web.archive.org/web/20150325081 ... zialwagen/

"Kulmhof" is the German word for the Chelmno Extermination Camp.


I showed this document to some German and he claims this document is fake because of the word "Einzigste".
Too bad I don't speak German, so I can't really discuss about this kind of topics.
Does anyone have clarifications about this word?


Here, Oozy:
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2016/10/rebuttal-of-alvarez-on-gas-vans-just.html?m=1

Basically there is so much counter evidence any idea that this is a forgery is ridiculous. There is a spot on "language," scroll down.

And see if your denier will come here.

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Re: The Chelmno Thread

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:14 pm

Oozy_Substance wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:Per this document, by June of 1942, 97,000 have been "processed." Note that the document details technical issues encountered and the steps taken to correct the technical issues:
https://web.archive.org/web/20150325081 ... zialwagen/

"Kulmhof" is the German word for the Chelmno Extermination Camp.


I showed this document to some German and he claims this document is fake because of the word "Einzigste".
Too bad I don't speak German, so I can't really discuss about this kind of topics.
Does anyone have clarifications about this word?


http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2015/10/contemporary-german-documents-on.html?m=1

There is a list of documents on gas vans, they are actually really well documented.

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Re: The Chelmno Thread

Postby Hans » Mon Apr 17, 2017 1:23 pm

I've added a new document to the collection (not published and cited before AFAIK):

German Document on Chelmno Gas Van Driver Filling up Gasoline in Lodz

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Re: The Chelmno Thread

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Mon Apr 17, 2017 1:45 pm

I like when the convergence of evidence shines ;)

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Re: The Chelmno Thread

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:04 pm

Sergey_Romanov wrote:I like when the convergence of evidence shines ;)


Me, too.

Too bad for deniers it isn't all about witness testimony.

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Re: The Chelmno Thread

Postby NathanC » Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:49 pm

Nice to have you with us, Sergey :)

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Re: The Chelmno Thread

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:56 pm

Maybe Maryzilla will return to explain to us why she told us Butz would set things straight on Chełmno, a camp he barely, for good reason, mentions, except to claim that for mass murder at Chełmno there is close to zero evidence . . .
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Nazism conspired to create a sense of festival time. . . . Tragically for humanity, the party generating it was the type not associated with the coloured costumes of the Brazilian Carnival, but with the brown-shirted thuggery of the NSDAP. The contrast between the dance and the march, between the samba and the strains of the Horst Wessel Lied, points to the gulf separating a life-asserting community from a community which exists only by creating a demonized other. - RG '97

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Re: The Chelmno Thread

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:57 pm

NathanC wrote:Nice to have you with us, Sergey :)



I'll second that.

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Re: The Chelmno Thread

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:59 pm

I'd intended on dropping this for a bit but rollo wanted more information.
:lol:

Because I know rollo is waiting with baited breath to know more about Chelmno, I will give him some more eyewitness testimony.

Chelmno and the Holocaust, page 205:

Józef Klonowski, a Pole who lived in the area, once saw a gas van overturned on the highway near the forest, and Jews standing around it. 31 In the winter of 1942, another local Pole was riding his bicycle down the highway when he saw that a gas van had broken down and the engine was being repaired. As he passed by, he heard screams coming from inside. The van was started up and drove past him only to stop once more. As he pedaled by the van a second time, he again heard screams. 32 On March 23, 1942, Bolesław Antkiewicz, while on his way to Chełmno, saw a gas van broken down on the highway near the forest. Antkiewicz recalled that,” Despite the fact that the van had stopped, the body moved as if something inside of it were rocking back and forth.” 33

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Re: The Chelmno Thread

Postby Darren Wilshak » Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:35 pm

Welcome Sergey Romanov to the forum.

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Re: The Chelmno Thread

Postby Denying-History » Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:36 pm

Welcome Sergey.
« Lies written in ink cannot disguise facts written in blood. »
- Lu Xun

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Re: The Chelmno Thread

Postby Darren Wilshak » Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:36 pm

That is unlikely Stat Mech as Mary Dogzilla is full of it.

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Re: The Chelmno Thread

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Apr 19, 2017 5:12 pm

One common thread among witness statements is that they came across the vans stuck or turned over.

Skidding was a known problem, addressed in this document:

The overhauling of vans by groups D and C is finished. While the vans of the first series can also be put into action if the weather is not too bad, the vans of the second series (Saurer) stop completely in rainy weather. If it has rained for instance for only one half hour, the van cannot be used because it simply skids away. It can only be used in absolutely dry weather. It is only a question now whether the van can only be used standing at the place of execution. First the van has to be brought to that place, which is possible only in good weather. The place of execution is usually l0-15 km away from the highways and is difficult to access because of its location; in damp or wet weather it is not accessible at all. If the persons to be executed are driven or led to that place, then they realize immediately what is going on and get restless, which is to be avoided as far as possible. There is only one way left; to load them at the collecting point and to drive them to the spot.
I ordered the vans of group D to be camouflaged as house-trailers by putting one set of window shutters on each side of the small van and two on each side of the larger vans, such as one often sees on farm-houses in the country. The vans became so well-known, that not only the authorities, but also the civilian population called the van "death van", as soon as one of these vehicles appeared. It is my opinion, the van cannot be kept secret for any length of time, not even camouflaged.


That doesn't directly deal with Chelmno but it does show that skidding was a problem, as was identification by locals. The vans discussed in this document were used by Einsatzgruppen in the Soviet Union.

You can see a really good translation of the document here:
http://www.deathcamps.org/gas_chambers/rauff.html

You can see the original German here, along with another translation:
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... ?m=1#_doc3

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Re: The Chelmno Thread

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Apr 19, 2017 5:36 pm

Vehicles cannot roll over unless there are sharp and deep depressions in the road surface. This is a well-known physical law to which every racing car driver will attest.
Nazism conspired to create a sense of festival time. . . . Tragically for humanity, the party generating it was the type not associated with the coloured costumes of the Brazilian Carnival, but with the brown-shirted thuggery of the NSDAP. The contrast between the dance and the march, between the samba and the strains of the Horst Wessel Lied, points to the gulf separating a life-asserting community from a community which exists only by creating a demonized other. - RG '97

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Re: The Chelmno Thread

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:31 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Vehicles cannot roll over unless there are sharp and deep depressions in the road surface. This is a well-known physical law to which every racing car driver will attest.


I thought I had something about the tendency of these vans to roll but I can't find it. I may have mistaken that with Rauff's letter on the tendency of the vans to skid in wet weather.

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Re: The Chelmno Thread

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:42 pm

LOL top heaviness is a factor in rollovers. There are rollovers that are caused by tripping (what they wrote about, which can also include a collision) and then those that occur simply because of the combined action of center of gravity, grip and inertia IIRC - vehicles can "naturally" roll under certain conditions - and high center of gravity, as in a van, or load shifting, as in a van, enhance the ability to roll in cornering. Cornering grip "holds" the vehicle "in" so to speak whilst inertia pushes the vehicle "outward" - these forces, which are at ground level, "roll" the vehicle toward the outside of the corner; combined with speed and a high center of gravity they can be strong enough to roll the vehicle over. A physicist or engineer could explain this. It's basic stuff. They are just making up BS. I've seen racecars, with low center of gravity and a lot of grip, roll "naturally" in front of me on a race track.
Nazism conspired to create a sense of festival time. . . . Tragically for humanity, the party generating it was the type not associated with the coloured costumes of the Brazilian Carnival, but with the brown-shirted thuggery of the NSDAP. The contrast between the dance and the march, between the samba and the strains of the Horst Wessel Lied, points to the gulf separating a life-asserting community from a community which exists only by creating a demonized other. - RG '97

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Re: The Chelmno Thread

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:47 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:LOL top heaviness is a factor in rollovers. There are rollovers that are caused by tripping (what they wrote about, which can also include a collision) and then those that occur simply because of the combined action of center of gravity, grip and inertia IIRC - vehicles can "naturally" roll under certain conditions - and high center of gravity, as in a van, or load shifting, as in a van, enhance the ability to roll in cornering. Cornering grip "holds" the vehicle "in" so to speak whilst inertia pushes the vehicle "outward" - these forces, which are at ground level, "roll" the vehicle toward the outside of the corner; combined with speed and a high center of gravity they can be strong enough to roll the vehicle over. A physicist or engineer could explain this. It's basic stuff. They are just making up BS. I've seen racecars, with low center of gravity and a lot of grip, roll "naturally" in front of me on a race track.


This was my argument but I guess that's not good enough for the RODOH crowd.

:D

I really did think there was a document addressing the rolling issue but I'm wrong on that, I think.

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Re: The Chelmno Thread

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Apr 19, 2017 8:01 pm

It kind of doesn't matter. They're arguing that a well-known, often observed, studied, albeit-not-frequent phenomenon (untripped rollovers) cannot occur. It's not even an argument: it's an effort to BS through life and dominate by force of BS.

Reminds me of the time Rollo, Fish and others tried convincing me I hadn't visited a museum exhibit which I'd visited, posted about, described, and added photos I'd taken of it. LOL.
Nazism conspired to create a sense of festival time. . . . Tragically for humanity, the party generating it was the type not associated with the coloured costumes of the Brazilian Carnival, but with the brown-shirted thuggery of the NSDAP. The contrast between the dance and the march, between the samba and the strains of the Horst Wessel Lied, points to the gulf separating a life-asserting community from a community which exists only by creating a demonized other. - RG '97


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