The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Dec 27, 2017 7:10 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Thanks for catching that whilst I looked at the photos! They missed both by a zillion. I will email WaPo - the numbers I have are IIRC ‘42 - ca 70,00 and ‘44 - ca 7,100 to Chelmno - I have to look up the Auschwitz number for ‘44.



USHMM lists 60,000 for August 1944:

https://www.ushmm.org/learn/timeline-of-events/1942-1945/liquidation-of-the-lodz-ghetto

65,000-67,000:
https://kehilalinks.jewishgen.org/lodz/statistics.htm

HEART has the same number:
http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/ghettos/Lodz/lodzghetto.html

60,000:
http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/holocaust/timeline.html#1944

In “Chelmno and the Holocaust” the number given is 54,500 and footnote is from “Chronicle.”

So, probably around 60,000. I don’t have “Chronicle” at home, it’s at work so I can’t confirm that number.
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Dec 27, 2017 7:11 pm

I generally go with lower numbers.
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Dec 27, 2017 7:26 pm

Here's what's in my notes:

Lodz Jews to Chelmno 1942 - 70,675
Lodz Jews to Chelmno 1944 - 7,186
Lodz Jews to Auschwitz 1944 - 70,067 est

-----------------------------------------------------
sources:
1942: Montague
1944 Chelmno: Montague
1944 Auschwitz: Strzelecki, Yad Vashem, JewishGen
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Dec 27, 2017 7:31 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Here's what's in my notes:

Lodz Jews to Chelmno 1942 - 70,675
Lodz Jews to Chelmno 1944 - 7,186
Lodz Jews to Auschwitz 1944 - 70,067 est

-----------------------------------------------------
sources:
1942: Montague
1944 Chelmno: Montague
1944 Auschwitz: Strzelecki, Yad Vashem, JewishGen


Oops, you edited while I hunted.
:D

I saw the 70,067 but I think that’s total for the year, I focused on August of 1944 only. I think the 7,186 is a solid number for Chelmno.
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Dec 27, 2017 7:35 pm

That number is 9 August through 31 August 1944.

(True dat: I figured everyone was out having egg nog or glögg or otherwise :))
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:09 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:(True dat: I figured everyone was out having egg nog or glögg or otherwise :))


Yeah, if I tried glogg it would plant me solidly on my ass and I would sleep for about two days. I have to go back to work tomorrow.

As for egg nog, I love the stuff but it doesn’t fit into my diet..... :D
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Postby Hans » Thu Dec 28, 2017 2:03 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Here's what's in my notes:

Lodz Jews to Chelmno 1942 - 70,675
Lodz Jews to Chelmno 1944 - 7,186
Lodz Jews to Auschwitz 1944 - 70,067 est

-----------------------------------------------------
sources:
1942: Montague
1944 Chelmno: Montague
1944 Auschwitz: Strzelecki, Yad Vashem, JewishGen

For 1942, I posted the primary sources in Table 1 here.



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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:32 am

Lol was just going to post this link!! Thanks Hans
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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:36 pm

A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Jul 15, 2018 2:02 am

Bumping this for my Twitter friends.....
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Jul 21, 2018 7:56 am

Can’t remember if I posted this video here but too tired to look:
https://youtu.be/nxM9z7KaY3Y
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Jul 21, 2018 9:50 pm

A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Jul 21, 2018 9:51 pm

I was reminded of it reading Rees book on the Holocaust.
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Postby Hans » Sun Jul 22, 2018 6:24 am

The smell of the police members was likely a desinfection agent applied on those who came close to the victims and their belongings. This has been clarified by the local forester Heinrich May, who also thought at first it was the "smell of corpses".

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:36 pm

So, bumping this and will add as I go.

Per the “Chronicle of the Łódź Ghetto” the Germans succeeded in isolating the Ghetto better due to local conditions.

1) The inhabitants were not allowed copies of the Litzmander Zeitung, the official paper distributed by the Germans.
2) Smuggling was nonexistent (unlike the other ghettos) due to the Germans removing Polish inhabitants that lived close to the Ghetto boundaries.
3) The complete pacification of the city.
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Postby montgomery » Tue Sep 18, 2018 5:50 pm

Hans wrote:The smell of the police members was likely a desinfection agent applied on those who came close to the victims and their belongings. This has been clarified by the local forester Heinrich May, who also thought at first it was the "smell of corpses".


That would be an issue regardless of how they died.

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:42 am

watch this space
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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Postby Hans » Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:18 pm

montgomery wrote:
Hans wrote:The smell of the police members was likely a desinfection agent applied on those who came close to the victims and their belongings. This has been clarified by the local forester Heinrich May, who also thought at first it was the "smell of corpses".


That would be an issue regardless of how they died.


Actually that would be an issue regardless if anyone died. The lysol was applied on the police men because living people forced by the Nazis' policy to live under poor hygienic conditions were brought to Kulmhof.

Do you know what happened to those people, by the way?

It's a total mystery. I'm researching this "camp" (actually it was more like a fenced rotten mansion) for more than 1.5 years now, but I found no evidence to support outgoing transports, whereas there are train records to the next nearest station and other German sources on extensive incoming deportations as well as numerous testimonies on the flow of people to the site (but nobody has seen them leaving again). Not less puzzling is that huge amounts of clothing accumulated at Kulmhof that was shipped back to a place near Litzmannstadt, as if the Jewish people, who seem to have vanished from the face of the earth at the same time, did not need it anymore. The only known Jews who have left this camp alive escaped and submerged. Instead of any infrastructure to accomodate the mass of people brought in, there are only extended cleared mass graves and remains of cremation furnaces in the nearby forest.

It's just as if you could only survive this place if you escaped.

What kind of camp would that be? :?:

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Postby montgomery » Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:30 pm

Hans wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Hans wrote:The smell of the police members was likely a desinfection agent applied on those who came close to the victims and their belongings. This has been clarified by the local forester Heinrich May, who also thought at first it was the "smell of corpses".


That would be an issue regardless of how they died.


Actually that would be an issue regardless if anyone died. The lysol was applied on the police men because living people forced by the Nazis' policy to live under poor hygienic conditions were brought to Kulmhof.

Do you know what happened to those people, by the way?

It's a total mystery. I'm researching this "camp" (actually it was more like a fenced rotten mansion) for more than 1.5 years now, but I found no evidence to support outgoing transports, whereas there are train records to the next nearest station and other German sources on extensive incoming deportations as well as numerous testimonies on the flow of people to the site (but nobody has seen them leaving again). Not less puzzling is that huge amounts of clothing accumulated at Kulmhof that was shipped back to a place near Litzmannstadt, as if the Jewish people, who seem to have vanished from the face of the earth at the same time, did not need it anymore. The only known Jews who have left this camp alive escaped and submerged. Instead of any infrastructure to accomodate the mass of people brought in, there are only extended cleared mass graves and remains of cremation furnaces in the nearby forest.

It's just as if you could only survive this place if you escaped.

What kind of camp would that be? :?:

You're doing a lot of researching Hans and I hope it leads to your own satisfaction in order to allow you to make some specific claims.

However, you have now gained yourself a reputation as one who promotes fiction and then claims it to be real.

I suggest you return again to the Mogliev gassing thread because S.M. is attempting to revive it with proof that it was indeed a film made at Mogliev. What the point of that exercise could be, I have no idea. But I've asked some questions of S.M. that I would be surprised if he answers. He never has so far! Maybe you can.

On the positive side for you Hans, he appears to be trying to make the claim that the vid isn't faked. This could lead to salvaging your reputation. I look forward to that with an open mind, as a skeptic.


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