March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:00 pm

To add some more detail - RSHA Enigma signals were not, as noted, intercepted/decoded; the Einsatzgruppen did send some administative-type signals through the Police coding system but they did not send the EMs through that system, unlike those going to Kommandostab RFSS, Chef Orpo and Chef RSHA from HSSPFs etc.

It is mildly amusing that the deniers here think they are fooling anyone. Go figure.
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:20 pm

We're almost there . . . installment 5:
German Footage of a Homicidal Gassing with Engine Exhaust. Part 5: Responsibility (III).
Author: Hans Metzner

The previous part proposed that the Mogilev gassing footage displays the experimental gassing carried out by the Einsatzgruppe B leader Arthur Nebe, Einsatzkommando 8 and Albrecht Widmann of the Criminal Technical Institute of the Security Police in September 1941. The following part will outline some conflicting evidence and evaluate alternative interpretations.

The KTI/RKPA Witnesses on the Gassing Footage

Although the gassing footage resembles the experimental gassing described by Widmann, Schmidt and Bauer, the three eyewitnesses from the RKPA and its Criminal Technical Institute denied towards West-German investigators that what is shown on the still images corresponds to how they remembered the test gassing in several details, e.g. wooden house or plastered building vs. red brick building (interrogation of Widmann of 8 April 1962, BArch, B 162 / 1604, p. 493; interrogation of Schmidt of 4 May 1962, BArch, B162 / 1602, p. 497; interrogation of Bauer of 9 December 1961, BArch, B 162 / 4340, p. 27). The difference between footage and testimonies may result from misremembering, especially when considering the time passed by.

For instance, Widmann could have had the inside view in mind when he stated that the "bricked window looked terrible...next to the white plastered building wall" (interrogation of 8 April 1962, BArch, B 162 / 1604, p. 493; plastered brick walls can be seen in the scene where mentally ill are unloaded infront next to knee-high entrance walls of the building). The Einsatzgruppe B staff member Andreas von Amburger learnt from the group doctor Hans Battista that Widmann observed the gassing through slits in the door (interrogation of von Amburger of 27 December 1945, BArch B 162 / 21555, p. 1329).

Schmidt could not distinguish if the building was wooden or made of stone nor did he remember the 2nd hose and gas introduction port.

Still, the confident and seemingly independent testimony that the test gassing is not shown on the footage should urge to think also about alternative interpretations. As a matter of fact, the gassing of mentally ill described by Widmann et al. was not only one with engine exhaust from vehicles that had taken place in Mogilev.

The Large Scale Gassing in Mogilev

In September to early October 1941, the Einsatzkommando 8 of Einsatzgruppe B killed the majority of inmates of the central asylum in Mogilev. The following account was given by the asylum's head physician Aleksandr Stepanov:
"In September 1941, Hauptmann Prip - member of the Gestapo - and several officers...came into the hospital and ordered to pick the medical records of the sick, who stayed longer than 3 years in the hospital, and to hand over a list of these sick. He said that the sick will be evacuated to the hinterland, because it is more easy there to feed them and take care of them.

After 2 to 3 days, Hauptmann Prip turned up again in the hospital with different officers and ordered us to show our rooms. After this inspection, he stayed in a small room of the medical department - the dressing room. They sent the Jewish workers to brick up the window and door to the corridor of the medical department. Two metal pipes were placed into the bricked up window.

About one day later, several cars with police - with Hauptmann Prip ahead - arrived, surrounded the hospital...The police men brought the sick in about 60 - 80 people to the gassing room and they were gassed there, which was probably coming through the hoses from the car. The Jewish workers carried the corpses out of the room, put them on the yard next to the sanitary department and afterwards they were transported on cars in the direction of the Minsk highway. During the day, about 600 mentally ill were barbarically euthanized.
(interrogation of A. Stepanov of 20 July 1944, in Istoriya mogilyovskogo evrejstva. Dokumenty i lyudi, book 2, part 2 (2nd. edn.), 2010, p. 194 & Grundmann, Georg Frentzel, p. 82f., my translation; the mentioned "Hauptmann Prip" is obviously the head interpreter of Einsatzkommando 8, Adolf Prieb)

His deputy Nikolaj Pugach, medical specialist for psychiatry, confirmed the incident and dated it "at the end of September 1941" (interrogation of N. Pugach of 13 July 1944, in Istoriya mogilyovskogo evrejstva. Dokumenty i lyudi, book 2, part 2 (2nd. edn.), 2010, p. 196 and Grundmann, Georg Frentzel, p. 84). The former nurse Valentina Moskina also testified on this gassing in course of the Soviet investigations in the late 40s/early 50s against the former Einsatzkommando 8 member (?) Georg Medler (Friedman et al, Diskriminiert - vernichtet - vergessen. Behinderte in der Sowjetunion, unter nationalsozialistischer Besatzung und im Ostblock 1917 - 1991, p. 489).

In the early 70s, Georg Frentzel was put on trial in East-Germany for his actions as member of Einsatzkommando 8. Among other things, he also admitted his participation in the gassing of several hundreds of mentally ill in Mogilev:
"During the action in the months September/October 1941, mentally ill were poisoned in the Mogilev asylum by exhaust gases of vehicles. While I waited for Prieb in the car on the street, he was in the asylum for some time. I don't know and he did not tell me, what he did in the asylum. On the day of the action, we drove with 6-8 cars to the asylum site and were directed backwards to a building by Prieb. There were two pipe nipples connected with a hose. The hose was connected to two cars by Kelling or Schirrmeister. The engines were started at the order of Prieb and he decided upon hearing how to open the throttle, i.e. we regulated the hand throttle. The engine run on quite low rotations. The mentioned nipples led into the gas room...The sick were killed by the inflowing exhaust gases....approximately 20 to 30 minutes. The gas room was opened and the Jewish citizens brought by Einsatzkommando 8 had to load the corpses on trucks. The corpses were buried near Mogilev. This procedure was repeated until the late afternoon or evening....The corpses were partly only dressed with a shirt or coat and heavily emaciated, yes you can say only skin and bones...It had to be many hundreds. I accept the figure, which follows from the hospital records....At a time, two cars were were connected to the hoses of the nipples....As the engines of the cars were running almost idle, they were changed now and then to avoid them running hot."
(interrogation of Frentzel of 1970, in Grundmann, Georg Frentzel, p. 87f.; my translation)

The large scale mass killing is further corroborated by contemporary documents. On 3 September 1941, the asylum had an inmate strength of 910 persons, which dropped to 217 by 2 November 1941 according to its records (Winkler & Hohendorf, Die Ermordung der Psychiatriepatientinnen in Mogilew 1941/42, p. 97). The Einsatzgruppe B reported that "863 mentally ill people were specially treated", i.e. killed, in Mogilev up to 9 October 1941 (Activity Report of the Einsatzgruppen no. 108, in Cüppers et al., Die Ereignismeldungen UdSSR 1941, p. 663). Note that the Operation and Situation Report no. 6 of the Einsatzgruppen states that these victims were "shot" (reproduced in Klein, Die Einsatzgruppen in der besetzten Sowjetunion 1941/42, p. 229) - in the light of the above cited testimonies this was apparently meant to obfuscate the actual killing method.

The Russian doctors did not mention an experimental gassing prior the large scale killing. It is conceivable that both took place right after the other, i.e. the Einsatzkommando 8 men continued the action after the KTI/RKPA team left the scene. The killing of 600 - 700 mentally people in this single gas chamber in batches of 60 to 80 people on a single day sounds ambitious, but not impossible.

The remaining inmates of the asylum were shot in January 1942 and the facility was closed down on 22 January 1942 to be used as military hospital for the German army (letter A. Stepanov to N. Stepanov of 6 March 1942 & interrogation of A. Stepanov of 20 July 1944, in Istoriya mogilyovskogo evrejstva. Dokumenty i lyudi, book 2, part 2, 2nd. edn., 2010, p. 195 f.).

The Summer 1942 Action

Yet another gassing action of mentally ill people in a stationary gas chamber in Mogilev by Einsatzkommando 8 occurred in the Summer of 1942. Here's how the deputy of the commando leader, Hans Hasse, described what happened:
"In Summer 1942, I had to get 100 to 120 mentally ill Russians gassed at the order of Gruppenführer Naumann....Von dem Bach-Zelewksi wished that a mentally asylum not far from our office should be cleared. The Higher SS and Police leader intended to install a military hospital for Germans in this asylum occupied by Russian patients...As ordered by Naumann, the mentally were to be killed with the gas van...The next moring, I drove to the asylum together with Prieb. I'm sure the gas van driver was with us...Prieb explained to the Russians that the mentall ill people shall be gassed. He told them how the killing was to supposed to proceed. He informed them that the mentally ill should be brought into a room and that this room should be sealed. The asylum consisted of 2 - 3 one story stone buildings. As far as I remember there were two big rooms in each building. The mentally ill laid on the floor....Then we drove [again] to the asylum with the gas van and one or two cars. Perhaps there were three cars. This second time we went to the asylum, the mentally ill people had already been brought to the room and this room was sealed. A hose of about 5 m length as put through an opening in the wall or the door into the room. The gas hose was connected to the engine of the gas van."
(interrogation of Hasse of 10 January 1963, YVA TR10 1118 folder 5, p. 271)

In a later interrogation, he changed the gassing set-up from a gas van connected to the room to "one connection to the exhaust tube of a car and another connection to the exhaust of a truck". (interrogation of Hasse of 2 July 1963, YVA TR10 1118 volume 5, p. 435; the mind change occurred after the stills from the footage were shown to him again).

This gassing was also confirmed by Heinz Schlechte, Karl Strohhammer and Adolf Prieb (interrogation of Schlechte of 29 January 1963, YVA TR.10 File 1118 5, p. 551; interrogation of Strohhammer of 10 August 1961, BArch B 162 / 3297, p. 169; interrogation of Prieb of 2 July 1962, BArch B 162 / 3298, p. 253 f.). Schlechte agreed that it was tried to gas the mentally ill with engine exhaust in a room, but believed that the people were ultimately loaded on the gas van.

This gassing followed a similar scheme than those back in 1941. Could the Einsatzkommando 8 men have misdated a gassing in September/October 1941 to Summer 1942? The testimonies place the gassing under the group and commando leaders Erich Naumann and Heinz Richter, who had replaced their predecessors Arthur Nebe and Otto Bradfisch in November 1941 and March 1942, respectively. The gas van mentioned by Hasse and Schlechte reached Einsatzkommando 8 in February 1942. Hence, the dating to Summer 1942 neatly fits to the provided context.

Strohammer, Schlechte and Prieb were already members of Einsatzkommando 8 in September 1941 and so could have had been present at the 1941 gassings. In fact, Strohhammer himself vaguely testified on a prior gassing of mentally ill under Bradfisch in 1941 and Prieb has been identified by the asylum's doctors and Georg Frentzel on the spot. However, Hasse joined Einsatzkommando 8 only in November 1941. Thus, he could not have participated in the gassing earlier the year.

It is not known where exactly this Summer 1942 gassing took place in Mogilev. Probably, mentally ill people, who turned up in the Mogilev area between the closure of the central asylum in January and Summer 1942, were concentrated at some site and killed during this action.

Alternative Interpretations

If the test gassing by the KTI/RKPA team is not shown on the film sequences, the next nearest explanation would be that the footage shows the large scale gassing of the Mogilev asylum inmates described by Stepanov et al., so that both the test gassing by Widmann et al. and the large scale gassing in the asylum were necessarily two separate actions at different sites. The testimonies of the Russian witnesses and Frentzel do not include concrete evidence that Nebe's staff and the KTI/RKPA team had been at the site on the same day. The datings are too vague (September vs. end of September) or even conflicting (3rd October according to Frentzel's trial vs. 15 September inferred from Widmann, Bauer and von dem Bach's diary entry) to rule out separate actions.

The possible change of the gas chamber between the experimental and the large scale gassing could have made sense if the test gas chamber was considered too small or if it was located in the colony complex some kilometres away from the main asylum or in yet another still unknown location with mentally ill people in Mogilev. If the test gassing was carried out in another site or the colony of the Mogilev asylum, then this raises the question why this was not reported by Stepanov at el. If it was done at another place near Mogilev, it leaves the open question where this was and where the mentally ill came from.

Another possible interpretation is that the footage shows the Summer 1942 action mentioned by Hasse et al. The main drawbacks of this explanation are that the most significant testimonies are either little robust or diverging on relevant details (Hasse, Schlechte) and that the asylum shown on the footage was closed down in January 1942. One would have to presume - without further evidence - that the site in question was only partially closed down or reopened for mentally ill people in Spring and Summer 1942. Nebe, who later stored the footage in his house, was not in charge of Einsatzgruppe B at the time either.

The following features five interpretations of what might be shown on the footage with its benefits and drawbacks compared to the others.

Interpretation A: the Mogilev gassing footage shows the test run by the KTI/RKPA team, Nebe's staff and Einsatzkommando 8 in the central asylum in Mogilev followed by the liquidation of most of the mentally ill described by the asylum's doctors and Georg Frenzel.

- benefits
- Nebe's attested presence & the finding of the footage in his house
- consistency to the asylum doctor's testimony
- most simple and straightforward
-drawback
- contradicts testimony of Widmann, Bauer and Schmidt

Interpretation B: the Mogilev gassing footage shows the test run by the KTI/RKPA team, Nebe's staff and Einsatzkommando 8 in the central asylum in Mogilev. The liquidation of most of the mentally ill described by the asylum's doctors and Georg Frenzel was carried out days or weeks later.

- benefits
- Nebe's attested presence & the finding of the footage in his house
- drawback
- contradicts testimony of Widmann, Bauer and Schmidt
- inconsistent to the asylum doctor's testimony

Interpretation C: the Mogilev gassing footage shows the large scale gassing in the central Mogilev asylum and the test gassing was carried out in another building or in the colony of the asylum.

- benefits
consistent to testimony of Widmann, Bauer and Schmidt
- drawbacks
- Nebe not present
- inconsistent to the asylum doctors' testimony
- lack of evidence that another room was used for gassing in the asylum complex

Interpretation D: the Mogilev gassing footage shows the large scale gassing in the central Mogilev asylum and the test gassing was performed in yet another unkown place near Mogilev.

- benefits
- consistent to testimony of Widmann, Bauer, Schmidt and the asylum's doctors
- drawbacks
- Nebe not present
- lack of evidence for another asylum, where mentally ill were killed at the time

Interpretation E: the gassing footage shows the Summer 1942 action in Mogilev

- benefits
- police truck shown on the footage demonstrable operating in Mogilev (cf. testimony of Else)
- drawbacks
- Nebe not present and not in charge of Einsatzgruppe B anymore
- asylum was (partially or entirely) used as Wehrmacht hospital
- any of the additional drawbacks from explanation A - C assumed to sort out the gassings in 1941

As can be seen, interpretation B includes less of the benefits from A and only adds one more drawback, it is therefore less probable. Similiar so, interpretation E has to live with the drawbacks of the prior explanations, plus some of its own, and adds only a minor benefit. Hence, the footage is already unlikely to show the Summer 1942 gassing.

Interpretation A explains most, but is directly contradicted by some evidence, thus urging to make assumptions on the reliability of this evidence. Going from A to C and D solves the contradiction but only at the expense of another inconsistency and/or by adding further assumptions.

Conclusion

Mentally ill people were killed with vehicle exhaust in stationary homicidal gas chambers in Mogilev on 2-3 occasions. The first was the experimental gassing in September 1941 by Einsatzgruppe B, Einsatzkommando 8 and the chemist Albert Widmann from the Criminal Technical Institute of the Security Police. If it took place in the central asylum in Mogilev, it was possibly immediatly followed by the large scale killing of most the inmates described by the asylum's doctors and Einsatzkommando 8 member Georg Frentzel. Alternatively, this was a second, separate action different in time and possibly place. In Summer 1942, Einsatzkommando 8 tried to kill another group of mentally ill people in Mogilev with a similar set-up.

One of those is likely depicted on the gassing footage, which was taken in the central asylum in Mogilev during an action of Einsatzkommando 8. Neither of the mentioned actions comes along without conflicting or lacking evidence in order to establish its identity to the film scenes beyond any reasonable doubt. However, depending on how the benefits and drawbacks of the explanations are weighted, some can be favoured over others.

Despite being denied by the three eyewitnesses, interpretation A, that the gassing footage shows the experimental gassing described by Widmann el al. detailed in part 4, seems to have the greatest explanatory power and makes the most simple additional assumptions to favour it as most plausible explanation.
with permission: http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... ng_23.html

By the way, a question for the multitudes: have either of the know-nothings responded - besides montgomery's embarrassing own-goal on the location "Mogliev" - to the HC piece? Or are they still oh my'ing like this guy at Rodoh about a shadow?
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Balsamo » Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:21 pm

VFX wrote:No Jeff, they were in Soviet hands: as repeatedly said these guys had much to gain by hiding their own crimes and blaming the Nazis. This alone put serious doubt as to their authenticity. If these documents were corroborated by SIGINT at Bletchley Park one could vouch for their authenticity without doubt. To date there is no corroboration of these items and the signals intelligence intercepts. Due to ionic bounce etc those radio signals which traversed Europe would have been picked up. It was rather low grade police encryption. Bletchley Park got many police intercepts of executions but nothing relating to the documents mentioned above indicating genocide on the scale suggested. In fact there is only one possible document that could allude to a genocide and that is the Höfle Telegram which is not related to the Action Squads at all.
I was excepting that given the "source" you gave.
The forgery gambit is marvelous. Everything coming from the Soviets are by definition forgeries which of course clean up the table and free from having even to explain the how's.
Thanks to the link given by Statmec - who attributes to me the allegation that those documents were secrets and not used by historians when i was quoting the two Deniers from the video - i remember now where i came across Mogilev. Anyway, even those 2 deniers admitted the Soviets could not have faked the TuLB's because 1./ there were massive (over 3000 pages) 2. had been printed in a lot of copies which would have exposed the forgers to an eventual later discovery of another "untouched" copy.

I let other members deal with the Bletchley Park argument...as again, nothing new there.
EDIT: Well that was quick.

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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:28 pm

>> i remember now where i came across Mogilev.

Ironic, ain't it? I really linked to that post not for Mogilev or our back and forth - and not for the know-nothings of course - but so that anyone reading this by chance could easily find Nick Terry's primer, which is quoted in the post I linked to.
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:45 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:OTOH, in Nick Terry's primer, which I linked to above, we can read that "There are other scattered documents from the Orpo in Wehrmacht files and of course there are the Police Decodes intercepted by the British, which count as external corroboration of the Waffen-SS and Police reports, thus are indirect to the Einsatzgruppen." In "Conflicting Signals," many instances of police decodes corroborating what is in the written EMs are discussed.
Some of these corroborating decodes of police signals, including signals relative to the exhumation and destruction of mass graves, are discussed in Hanyok, Eavesdropping on Hell: Historical Guide to Western Communications Intelligence and the Holocaust, 1939-1945.
Further to this point, in a paper entitled "Hitler's Generals in the East and the Holocaust," Johannes Hürter reminds readers that it was not only the EMs that recorded the mass murders of Jews and others in the occupied East but also
The mass executions did not take place hidden from view. Some soldiers participated in them, while many others observed them as eyewitnesses. . . . [Witness reports to Wehrmacht commanders] supplemented the routine reports by the Ic (intelligence) departments, counterintelligence troops, Secret Field Police, field gendarmerie, and other agencies working together with the Security Police.
(p 26) The point is that we do not have only the EMs and TuLBs. The significance of this fact for "theories" of Soviet fabrication are obvious: either the Soviets will have to be said to have forged any document unhelpful to deniers (the "IFWF" problem) or the non-EM reports, by overlapping in some cases, confirm the EMs and their authenticity. These non-EM reports are not as comprehensive and systematic as the EMs, but their value alongside the EMs is unmistakable.
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:10 am

With the sources for the open-air shootings in the occupied East, the deniers are playing a psychedelic version of whack-a-mole. For little Latvia, for example, concerning summer 1941, here is a small sampling of sources:

[1] EM 24 (July 1941) stated about German actions in Latvia that
Conforming to a suggestion of the EK, the Jews are being evacuated by the auxiliary police force from all houses still standing. The apartments are being allocated to non-Jewish inhabitants. The Jewish families are being driven out of town by the Latvians; most of the men have been arrested. . . . The arrested Jewish men are shot without ceremony and interred in previously prepared graves.
[2] In spring 1941 Rosenberg gave early guidelines on propaganda for the invasion of Soviet Union calling for German press organs to emphasize that USSR is under "a group of Jewish criminal despots" and that local actions ("free rein") against Jews will be necessary to solving Jewish question in east; "the German army comes as a liberator from Bolshevism and from Jewry” by means of "large-scale Jewish pogroms and murders of Communist functionaries." A report of Einsatzgruppen A, operating in this region, spelled this out:
Similarly, native anti-Semitic forces were induced to start pograms against Jews during the first hours after capture, though this inducement proved to be very difficult. Following out orders, the Security Police was determined to solve the Jewish question with all possible means and most decisively. But it was desirable that the Security Police should not put in an immediate appearance, at least in the beginning, since the extraordinarily harsh measures were apt to stir even German circles. It had to be shown to the world that the native population itself took the first action by way of natural reaction against the suppression by Jews during several decades and against the terror exercised by the Communists during the preceding period.
Such pogroms were ordered specifically by Heydrich.

[3] Generalmajor F Kittel was taped in British custody describing mass executions of Jews by German police and Latvian auxiliaries near Daugavpils, Latvia, in summer 1941 - including his efforts to make the murders less public and more orderly:
"The things I've experienced! In Latvia, near Dvinsk [Daugavpils/Dünaburg], there were mass executions of Jews carried out by the SS.

"There were about 15 SS men and perhaps 60 Latvians, known to be the most brutal people in the world. I was lying in bed one Sunday morning when I kept hearing two salvos followed by small-arms fire."

On investigating, Kittel found "men, women and children - they were counted off and stripped naked. The executioners first laid all the clothes in one pile. Then 20 women had to take up their position - naked - on the edge of the trench. They were shot and fell down into it."

"How was it done?" asked Felbert.

"They faced the trench," Kittel replied. "And then 20 Latvians came up behind and simply fired once through the back of their heads, and they fell down forwards into the trench like ninepins."

Kittel gave an order forbidding such executions from taking place "outside, where people can look on. If you shoot people in the wood or somewhere where no one can see," he told the SS men, "that's your own affair. But I absolutely forbid another day's shooting here. We draw our drinking water from deep springs; we're getting nothing but corpse water there."

"What did they do to the children?" asked Felbert. Kittel - who sounded "very excited" at this point, according to the transcriber - answered: "They seized three-year-old children by the hair, held them up and shot them with a pistol and then threw them in. I saw that for myself. One could watch it."

Another general, General-leutnant Hans Schaeffer, commander of the 244 Infantry division, asked Kittel: "Did they weep? Have the people any idea what's in store for them?"

"They know perfectly well," replied Kittel. "They are apathetic. I'm not sensitive myself, but such things turn my stomach."

Later on, however, Kittel mused: "If one were to destroy all the Jews of the world simultaneously, there wouldn't remain a single accuser," and "Those Jews are the pest of the east!"
[4] As to Liepaja, we've already discussed the film shot of a small execution of Jews on Skede Beach by Reinhard Wiener, the German naval officer. Wiener testified that the victims were forced by "the SS and the Latvian 'Heimwehr'" into the pit. He reiterated, "the SS was also there . . . the supervising detail was made up of SS. You can see that on the film." Wiener describes the action as one of "the shootings of Jews." He said, "I was under the impression that they were just shot because they were Jews." Not for crimes. Not as communists. Just because they were Jews.

[5] The Stahlecker report explained to Berlin authorities that as of December 1941 the German units, with assistance from local helpers, had executed all Latvian Jews except about 3750 kept alive in 3 ghettos "as they are specialized workers necessary for maintaining the country's economy." Stahlecker also explained that these murders were part of the Reich's policy to destroy Jews in his region:
The systematic mopping up of the Eastern Territories embraced, in accordance with the basic orders, the complete removal if possible, of Jewry. This goal has been substantially attained-with the exception of White Russia-as a result of the execution up to the present time of 229,052 Jews (see Appendix). The remainder still left in the Baltic Provinces is urgently required as labour and housed in Ghettos.
The Stahlecker report was not part of the EM series or the TuLBs.
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Pyrrho » Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:03 am

VFX, please do not post dehumanizing, defamatory content directed at ethnic or religious groups. In this case, anti-semitic glorification of mass murder.

viewtopic.php?p=662662#p662662
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:06 am

last installment:
German Footage of a Homicidal Gassing with Engine Exhaust. Part 6: Forgery Allegation
Author: Hans Metzner

The Mogilev homicidal gassing footage discussed in the previous parts has been subjected to doubts about its authenticity. Interestingly, these were not limited to the usual suspects, but included a German public prosecutor investigating Nazi atrocities and Holocaust Museum staff. In any case, the suspicion that the footage was faked by the Allies is unsubstantiated in the light of the available evidence.

A German Public Prosecutor

The West-German investigators obtained image stills of the gassing scene in Mogilev and used them in their investigations and interrogations in the 1960s. Concerns about the authenticity of the gassing footage were expressed by the Stuttgart public prosecutor Rolf Sichting, who tried to track down the perpetrators of the scene. Seemingly tired by the fruitless search for owner of the vehicles shown in the photographs, Sichting noted on 27 December 1961:
In the meantime, doubts came to my mind if the images are real or possibly staged or the result of a photo montage. The tactical signs are not known to any of the relevant inquiry offices. Also, the numbers appear hand-drawn. It would have made more sense to lead the the gas hoses on the shortest way into the room in question by placing the vehicle with its rear to the wall.
(BArch B162/4340, p. 11)

In retrospect, Sichting’s reasons were not particular thrilling. The investigators had already learned that the tactical signs were simply chosen by the local unit leader. The vehicles were placed perpendicular to the building according to eyewitnesses, but they may have been moved in parallel to the wall in order to have a good shot for the footage. This kind of staging by the Germans themselves is irrelevant for the wider context.

If West-German investigators were still concerned about the authenticity of the images - there is no indication for such in the files - , this should have been vanished at latest in December 1962 when the license plate of the truck showed up on a list of vehicles of the police battalion company assigned to Einsatzkommando 8 in 1942 (see Part 3: Responsibility (I)).

United States Holocaust Memorial Museum

According to the on/off Holocaust denier or semi-denier David Cole, the US Nuremberg trial movie Nuremberg: Lessons for Today, which disappeared from the scene after its release in Germany in 1948, was rediscovered by him in 1994 in the US National Archives and called to the attention of U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum (USHMM):
I became convinced that the footage was genuine, and I wrote to the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum. I exchanged a series of faxes with their film archives director, Raye Farr. I wouldn’t speak with her over the phone, for fear that my incredibly unique voice might tip her off that I was Cole (Cole’s “death” was still fairly recent at that point). In several faxes, Farr told me that the experts she spoke with believed the “gassing” footage was a Soviet fake, staged to use against the Germans at the Nuremberg Trial.
(Cole, Republican Party Animal, p. 99)

We do not have to take Cole’s word for it, since his story that the USHMM staff used to have doubts on the footage’s authenticity is confirmed by the following two articles of 2005 (as pointed out by someone in our comment section here):
Raye Farr, director of the Holocaust Museum's Steven Spielberg Film and Video Archive, says that the Schulberg films have provided the basic material for generations of documentaries about the war. Scholars, she says, still pore over the films, still question what they find in them. Using documents in the possession of Sandra Schulberg, they now know that a scene showing a gassing in Belarus is one of the few authentic depictions of the Nazis' first experiments with this new form of murder.
"It's been in there all along but we didn't know what it was and we didn't know if it is authentic," she says. Now they do.
(Philip Kennicott, Art of Justice: The Filmmakers At Nuremberg, 29 November 2005, Washington Post)
Another rarely seen piece of film - distressing in the extreme - was shown to us during a research trip to the USHMM. The film purported to show an early gas van in operation. There was a certain amount of debate over this, and the questions were raised: 'was this a post-war reconstruction?'; 'what exactly was its provenance?'1 Our caption made it clear that its provenance was uncertain, but it provided a unique visual record of the steps taken towards industrial killing.

1. The film is purported to have been shot in Mogilev, Belarus. One historian at the IWM [Imperial War Museum] who is suspicious as to the authenticity of the film suggests it may have been 'mocked up' or assembled after the war by the East German state-sponsored film company DEFA (Deutsche Film Aktiengesellschaft).
(Haggith et al., Holocaust and the Moving Image: Representations in Film an Television in 1933, p. 25)

The doubts expressed by the staff of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum and the British Imperial War Museum until 2005/2006 could be understood to some extent if they knew next to nothing about the footage and its historical context. The issue was certainly poorly researched by the Museum’s staff. As a matter of fact, some essential information was already available at the time, if one just looked for it.

The provenance of the footage was mentioned in 1953 by the Historian Gerald Reitlinger in his standard work on the Holocaust:
Wirth may, however, have played a lesser part in the evolution of engine-gassing. As a Kriminalkommissar he was a subordinate of Arthur Nebe, who was commissioned by Himmler during his visit to Minsk in July or August 1941, to find a humane way of dealing with mass executions...This story of von dem Bach-Zelewski's finds some confirmation in the discovery in 1949 in Nebe's former Berlin apartment of an amateur film, showing a gas chamber operated by the exhausts of a car and a lorry.[20]
...
[20] Letter to the author and photographs from Mr. Joseph Zigman, Information Services Division, Office of the US High Commissioner, Germany.
(Reitlinger, The Final Solution, p. 130 & 603)

The positive identification of the truck as vehicle used by the police battalion assigned to Einsatzkommando 8 in Mogilev in discussed in Mathias Beer's article on German gas vans from 1987 (Beer, Die Entwicklung der Gaswagen beim Mord an den Juden, Vierteljahreshefte für Zeitgeschichte, 1987, 3, p. 408; English translation here).

The provenance revealed by Reitlinger is confirmed by the letter of Stuart Schulberg to Rudolph Goldschmidt of 18 June 1947 (summarized as "footage found in your house depicts gas chamber, vital evidence", partly quoted in Sandra Schulberg, Filmmakers for the Prosecution: The Making of Nuremberg: Its Lesson for Today, p. 21). According to the Washington Post article above, it must have been the find of this document in 2005 or earlier, which made Raye Farr dismissing her suspicion and accept the footage "as one of the few authentic depictions of the Nazis' first experiments with this new form of murder".

Holocaust Denial

In 2013, Klaus Schwensen published an article in the Holocaust denial journal "Inconvenient History" dealing with the gassing footage in some detail. He is not a full blown denier, but more like a semi-denier. He does accept the German Euthanasia with carbon monoxide gas as well as the experimental gassing carried out by Albert Widmann in Mogilev, subjects that will be fought tooth and nail by most Revisionists. They will, however, be likely eager to accept his claim that the Mogilev gassing footage is a Soviet forgery.
Legality
Since the pictures were taken at close range, the photographer must have been authorized to document the scene. On the other hand, there can be no doubt that taking pictures of a secret operation was strictly forbidden.
(Schwensen, The Three Photographs of an Alleged Gas Van)

Even if it were true - for the sake of argument - that it was forbidden to take pictures of secret operations, this would only mean that somebody did not care too much about such regulation. It is far-fetched to suppose that German paramilitary and military personnel would have never or barely done so in the East. Numerous private, compromising photographs found among German soldiers attest the opposite, e.g. shown here German soldiers posing next to corpses (from Reifarth & Schmidt-Linsenhoff, Die Kamera der Henker):

< images missing, see link below >

It is further absurd to presume that taking official pictures of secret operations was always strictly forbidden. To the contrary, it is obvious that there had to be one leader, who could authorize taking pictures of any operation. The only question is how far this had to go up in a specific case, to a commando leader, group leader, Heydrich or Himmler.

For example, the SS and police were given permission to take pictures of executions for official reasons. In Himmler's order to the Higher SS and Police Leaders of 12 November 1941 (Národní archiv sg.109-8/6, p.42, online at badatelna.eu), he approved taking pictures in the case this is "officially ordered" and that film and copies are stored in the archive of the corresponding office. The details on how to proceed in such case are written down in a follow up regulation of Heydrich to the SS and police offices of 16 April 1942 (Národní archiv sg.109-8/6, p.36, online at badatelna.eu). According to this, "pictures of executions for official reasons have normally to be ordered by the leaders of the Einsatz- and Sonderkommandos". Hence, an authorization on the level of the commando leaders was sufficient to take photographs of executions.

The Mogilev test gassing was not only attended by the commando leader Otto Bradfisch but also by his superior, the group leader Arthur Nebe. It is entirely possible that the documentation of the gassing Nebe had to report to Himmler/Heydrich was considered sufficiently approved according to the practice at the time.

So while shooting the film could have been easily legal, this was hardly the case anymore when Nebe stored it at his home. Here we go: Nebe did something illegal. So what? He was executed in March 1945 for his involvement in the 20 July 1944 plot against Hitler. Keeping footage of gassing at home was chicken feed compared to treason.
Professionalism

According to Schwensen, the stills are the "work of professionals" and were taken in the evening or at night with "professional lighting". Schwensen does not explain why the lighting cannot be the result of a low standing sun, though. Anyway, even if there was artificial lighting involved here, nothing speaks against the assumption that Einsatzkommando 8 employed floodlight at the site if the sun was already down. In this context, it is interesting to note that Nebe had experience with filming according to his staff member Andreas von Amburger:
"...as already mentioned, he liked to film..."
(interrogation of von Amburger of 27 December 1945, BArch B162/21555, p. 1330).

Discovery
"It is all but certain that the Gestapo thoroughly searched his house after the events of 20 July 1944, and they would surely have found and confiscated the film, had Nebe indeed kept it at home."
(Schwensen, The Three Photographs of an Alleged Gas Van)

Nebe was not a clear suspect for some time after the 20 July 1944 plot. According to the account of Bernhard Wehner, head of the RSHA office V B 1 and initially in charge of the search for Nebe after he disappeared, Himmler still expressed the possibility that Nebe may have been just insane (Wehner, "Das Spiel ist aus - Arthur Nebe", Der Spiegel, 30 March 1950). The first team that looked for Nebe consisted exclusively of men of his own Criminal Police. The Gestapo men took the lead as the involvement of Nebe and the Criminal Police became more likely. The latter had little interest in finding Nebe and many Gestapo men were likewise old colleagues of him. Wehner recollects that the Gestapo man leading the manhunt "did nothing" himself to find Nebe and that none of the officials of the Criminal Police "showed any desire to seriously find their boss" (Wehner, "Das Spiel ist aus - Arthur Nebe", Der Spiegel, 13 April 1950). Wehner suggests that the police would have "forgotten" about Nebe if he did not ask for attention with another fake suicide attempt (Wehner, "Das Spiel ist aus - Arthur Nebe", Der Spiegel, 30 March 1950).

According to Wehner, the housing of Nebe's wife in Joachimsthal was "mildly" searched by the Criminal Police and later "harsher" by the Gestapo (Wehner, "Das Spiel ist aus - Arthur Nebe", Der Spiegel, 6 April 1950). Based on eyewitness accounts obtained after the war, Wehner reconstructs that how in November 1944 the Gestapo searched Nebe's actual whereabouts in Motzen (after the Criminal Police had no success earlier). The house search was done "superficially" and "listlessly" within 15 minutes and the garden with Nebe's hide-out was not even looked at (Wehner, "Das Spiel ist aus - Arthur Nebe", Der Spiegel, 13 April 1950). So much on the Gestapo's "thorough search" in the case.

Given these circumstances, it seems possible that Nebe's own house was not thoroughly searched. There is no indication that the police or the Gestapo confiscated anything from Nebe's house or waded through his private stuff. Or that they were bothered about Nebe's film archive. Or were interested in some shots from his time in the East unrelated to the 20 July 1944 plot. Furthermore, it is not clear if the film roll with the Mogilev scenes was placed on a shelve or had been hidden - in the latter case it seems not unlikely that the rather superficial and listless Gestapo would not found it, whereas Goldschmidt could have stumbled across the hideout, for example, during renovation work of his new house.

Testimony

As pointed out in the previous part, the KTI/RKPA members Albert Widmann, Hans Schmidt and Alfred Bauer, who carried out the experimental gassing in Mogilev together with Nebe's staff and Einsatzkommando 8, did not recognize the stills of the footage as "their" test run. Schwensen checked out Widmann's and Schmidt's interrogations of 18 April 1962 (cited from Staatsarchiv Ludwigsburg) and 4 May 1962 (cited from BArch B162/1604) respectively. He missed that Bauer had initiated the chorus on 9 December 1961 (in BArch B162/4340). Schwensen argues that Widmann and Schmidt's testimonies give the "final blow to this photograph". While the testimonies raise doubts that the test gassing is shown in the footage, they are far from enough for proving this.

The KTI/RKPA witnesses did provide contradictory and uncertain descriptions themselves, which should be taken into account when judging their observational accuracy and ability to match the footage with memory.

For example, on the very same page cited by Schwensen, Schmidt also stated that he does not know anymore if the building was made of wood or stone nor did he remember the second introduction port and hose described by Widmann (interrogation of Schmidt of 4 May 1962, B162/1604, p. 496). Evidently, Schmidt did not have a photographic memory of the scene more than 20 years after the event.

Widmann was arguably more confident in his testimony, which does not rule out that he might have had a slip of memory on more than one occasion. For instance, he may have confused the inside view through the glass window into the gas chamber with the outside view when he recalled that the "bricked window looked terrible...next to the white plastered building wall" (interrogation of Widmann 8 April 1962, BArch, B162/1604, p. 493).

Alternatives

And then there is yet another explanation for the dissonance between the testimonies and the footage. There had been way more than just one homicidal gassing in the Mogilev area. In fact, the majority of inmates in the central Mogilev asylum, where the footage was taken, was killed with engine exhaust in September/October 1941 (see Part 5: Responsibility (III), something Schwensen obviously did not know, although he could have read about it in Winkler et al., Krieg und Psychiatrie 1914-1950, 2010, p. 93, cf. Gerlach, Kalkulierte Morde, p. 648. So even if Widmann’s experimental gassing is not identical to the footage, the next nearest explanation would be that it shows the main gassing in the Mogilev asylum (with Widmann's test gassing then being a separate action). There is no need to resort to a forgery claim, which comes along with a weird conspiracy theory.


Conspiracy Theory I

Instead of snapshots of a German atrocity, Schwensen’s considers the footage as a Soviet "fake" by the Extraordinary State Commission "to fabricate propaganda material against the ‘fascists’". There is no evidence whatsoever to support this hypothesis nor does it make any sense.

The Soviets learned about the gassings in the Mogilev asylum from its Russian doctors and through them, Schwensen writes, "must have known some details, but overlooked others". However, the footage includes details of the experimental gassing according to Widmann et al., which were lacking in the testimony of the former asylum staff: the use of a cabriolet Adler car and a truck for the gassing and the transport of the mentally ill with a horse-drawn cart. The Russian doctor Aleksandr Stepanov did not identify the kind of vehicles employed (interrogation of A. Stepanov of 20 July 1944, in Istoriya mogilyovskogo evrejstva. Dokumenty i lyudi, book 2, part 2 (2nd. edn.), 2010, p. 194). So by chance the Soviet film crew is supposed to have picked exactly the right vehicles (the Adler, a police truck and horse-drawn cart) for the scene. Lucky guys!


The next problem, why? "To fabricate propaganda material against the 'fascists'", says Schwensen. But why a Mogilev asylum gassing? Among all German atrocities the Soviets came across upon their advance into German occupied territories and during their investigations, the Euthanasia killing of mentally ill people by setting them to "sleep" with engine exhaust in an Belorussian town was one of the least suitable to exploit for propagandistic purposes. The Soviets supposedly went all the way to fake German atrocities on film on an original site, but instead of Auschwitz, Majdanek, Treblinka, Maly Trostinez, Babi Jar, Charkov & Krasnodar etc. pp., all they come up is the local gassing of mentally ill people in Mogilev in collaboration with Russian asylum staff!


On top of that, the footage would have been staged in one of the least suitable ways for their propaganda purposes. Instead of Germans, we see Russian asylum staff helping the victims from the horse-drawn cart to the gas chamber. Instead of mistreating and beaten the victims, they are cared for and helped down and wrapped into a blanket. Instead of being threatened to death, we see calm Russian asylum staff. Instead of grim German fascists threatening the asylum staff, a relaxed German soldier stands in the background acting more like a bystander than a perpetrator. Instead of terrified victims, they smile and greet the camera man. All of this makes no sense from a Soviet propagandist point of view and already refutes the notion that the footage has been fabricated by the Soviets. The scenes were shot pretty much how it was done by the Germans - or at least how German propaganda would have liked to display how it was done.

Next problem, after placing so much care in the fabrication of the footage even going back and reconstructing the original gassing site in Mogilev, what do the Soviets do with such trophy and precious propaganda material? It was not submitted as evidence at the Nuremberg trials. In May 1947, the Soviets released their own movie on the Nuremberg trial Sud narodov. But it does not feature the Mogilev gassing scenes. Not that it makes any more sense that the Soviets would have "faked" the footage as late as mid 1947 instead of during or right after the war, but even if - for the sake of argument - they were suddenly hit by the idea to fake an Euthanasia gassing after their release of Sud narodov, there was nothing that prevented them from using this propaganda film by themselves instead of donating it to some Rudolf Goldschmidt.
Conspiracy Theory II

A variant of the forgery allegation has been proposed by a Holocaust denier in the comments of this blog (see here). According to him, Rudolf Goldschmidt, who acquired Nebe’s former house, got the idea to fake some atrocity footage he would "find" there and paid some Soviet movie-makers to do so. Just as with the Schwensen story above, this one is not supported by any evidence and is made up from scratch. Moreover, the theory does not make much sense. It is implausible that Goldschmidt would have spent a small fortune on the research, the travel, the actors (including emaciated people as mentally ill), the props (like the Adler cabriolet with license plate registered to the Security Police - see Andreas Herzfeld, Handbuch Deutsche Kfz-Kennzeichen, Band 1, p. 252, cf. online here - and the truck with proper license plate assigned to Einsatzkommando 8), the permissions - for none of which there is any evidence that they were launched, done, acquired, obtained - just because the new owner of Nebe house "came up with the idea" to fabricate some footage, which did not even contain any exaggerated, propagandistic element. Or that they had to shoot the footage at the original historical site in Mogilev instead of simply using more readily available options, including shooting on set. Or that some Western guy, even with some ties to the Soviets, could just pay for a film to be made at a Nazi atrocity site in the Soviet Union in Stalin's time and would even be allowed to tamper with it.

This variant of the theory that the footage was faked by Westerners avoids the issue as to why it had not been used by the Soviets. However, if the Soviet authorities were not even involved in the forgery, it just raises the next unresolved issue, how Goldschmidt was even aware of the Mogilev gassing and how it was conducted according to the Soviet investigations. But he even had to go beyond what the Soviets learnt from the asylum staff in 1944. Where from did he know about the Adler? About the truck? About the license plate of a truck employed for Einsatzkommando 8 in 1941/42?
The use of an Adler car for the homicidal gassing in Mogilev was first mentioned by the Einsatzgruppe B staff member Andreas von Amburger (interrogation of von Amburger of 27 December 1945, BArch B162/21555, p. 1329). [edit 05.09.2016: actually, von Amburger only mentioned "Nebe's eight cylinder car", see comments]. However, his hearsay account does not mention that a second vehicle was employed. So if Goldschmidt scripted the scene based on von Amburger's testimony (which Goldschmidt obtained how again?), there would be no truck connected to a second gas port in the wall. Howsoever we put it, there are no sources known to be available at the time that allowed to reconstruct the scene as it was later pictured by Widmann et al.

Conclusion

Not knowing the provenance and full range of evidence, some public prosecutor in West-Germany and staff of the USHMM and the IWM used to have concerns about the authenticity of the footage. With all the facts laid down, they are as unsubstantiated these days. Except to Holocaust deniers and their affiliates of course, who continue to advance an implausible allegation with unfounded arguments not backed up by any evidence.

There are good reasons to regard the Mogilev gassing footage as authentic German material. The footage was reportedly found in the former house of Arthur Nebe. Nebe was the head of Einsatzgruppe B with its headquarter in Smolensk and Einsatzkommando 8 stationed in Mogilev. The footage was shot at the central Mogilev asylum, which was indeed cleared in 1941 according to contemporary documents. The scenes and setup are very similar to what is known from testimonial evidence how the gassing of mentally ill people with engine exhaust were carried out in general and specifically at this place. The truck with its license plate POL 51628 shown on the gassing scene belonged to the police battalion assigned to Einsatzkommando 8 in Mogilev. The Adler cabriolet with the license plate POL 28545 was registered to the Security Police. Nebe is known to have "liked to film" (interrogation of von Amburger cited above) and was present for the first gassing. The action is displayed how it was likely carried out by the Germans or at least how they preferred it to look like.

The only issue here is that Widmann, Bauer and Schmidt did not recognize the stills as the first test gassing. The contradiction can be resolved either by considering them to have been wrong or by supposing that the test gassing and the large scale gassing of the central asylum in Mogilev were separate in time and place and that the footage captured the latter one.

last edited: 20.9.2018
with permission: http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... ssing.html
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Sep 21, 2018 2:22 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:With the sources for the open-air shootings in the occupied East, the deniers are playing a psychedelic version of whack-a-mole. For little Latvia, for example, concerning summer 1941, here is a small sampling of sources: . . .
To take another example from the summer of 1941, for a single shooting of about 300 Jews in Vilnius around 12-13 July by Filbert's EK 8 we have sources that include (a) EM 24, (b) the diary of a Pole living near the execution site, Ponary, (c) a note in the KTB of the 403rd Security Division, and (d) a report from EG-B to Army Group Center.

The abundance of sources renders deniers' speculation about forged EMs moot - one can only assume, in fact, that they retreat to the "fabrication" claim out of ignorance of the variety of sources.

And, unfortunately for our denier friends, the substance of the various reports - some of which date to before partisans were organized and fighting the Germans or cover areas without partisan activities, often distinguish between executions of Jews and various individuals or groups active in opposing the Germans (Communists, saboteurs, partisans), often describe the aim (or accomplishment) of causing territory to be Judenrein, and whose victim totals show that between 85-99% of the victims in different areas were Jews - make other denier arguments equally as silly.
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:24 pm

N one wants to talk about the range of evidence for the operations of the EGs, which makes me glad we now have a music thread. But also makes me shake my head at the cowardice of some people.
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Darren Wilshak » Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:25 pm

You mean the abject trolling failure who says that anything by anyone but Nessie is not worth a lick.

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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Darren Wilshak » Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:26 pm

Seemed to close VFX down pretty quick on that one. He's not been the same since and is reducing himself to trying to defend his wife.

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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by scrmbldggs » Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:32 pm

Wife!?! And also stalking StatMech. What a little stinker...
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:34 pm

Darren Wilshak wrote:You mean the abject trolling failure who says that anything by anyone but Nessie is not worth a lick.
I think I am going to puke.
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by montgomery » Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:39 pm

Pyrrho wrote:VFX, please do not post dehumanizing, defamatory content directed at ethnic or religious groups. In this case, anti-semitic glorification of mass murder.

viewtopic.php?p=662662#p662662
I find that unacceptable for this section of the forum. I made it clear from the beginning that my participation would only be on fair terms for all. This is not that in my opinion.

But it is way past time that you took an interest in moderating this forum. You get to decide now whether it will be with my participation or not.

This is totally unacceptable bias against VFX!

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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by scrmbldggs » Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:40 pm

montgomery wrote:
Pyrrho wrote:VFX, please do not post dehumanizing, defamatory content directed at ethnic or religious groups. In this case, anti-semitic glorification of mass murder.

viewtopic.php?p=662662#p662662
I find that unacceptable for this section of the forum. I made it clear from the beginning that my participation would only be on fair terms for all. This is not that in my opinion.

But it is way past time that you took an interest in moderating this forum. You get to decide now whether it will be with my participation or not.

This is totally unacceptable bias against VFX!
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:42 pm

Holy moly!!!!I know what I'd decide ...
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by scrmbldggs » Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:46 pm

Did the little member write it's way past its bedtime?
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:47 pm

He seems to think that this is a Holocaust longing forum.
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Darren Wilshak » Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:49 pm

SM writes:

'I think I am going to puke.'

Vomit. All over his face and down his neck?

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Last edited by Darren Wilshak on Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Darren Wilshak » Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:52 pm

I think I've made the perfect replacement to the monstrous smiley that Strembleton was forever receiving.

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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by scrmbldggs » Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:59 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:He seems to think that this is a Holocaust longing forum.
They seem to be aiming for a desired martyrdom. ;)
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:21 pm

I am beginning to think these guys don't really want to discuss, ya know, history.
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by scrmbldggs » Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:26 pm

But don't you ever forget the Alamo their sacrifice! :oldman:
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Pyrrho » Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:29 pm

Okay, I have no obligation to allow the posting of the sort of content I warned about. How you folks manage these discussions without quoting such content is for you to solve. Link to it if you must. Be aware that I have no sense of humor about it whatsoever, and I do understand that much similar content was uttered by historical figures. That was not the case in this instance.

Let me know what you folks think is acceptable and I will take that into consideration.
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by scrmbldggs » Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:43 pm

Maybe that user's editing function should be revoked. S/he then might think twice about posting the sort of objectionable content s/he keeps dumping (and deleting when called on it).
Last edited by scrmbldggs on Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by montgomery » Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:46 pm

Pyrrho wrote:Okay, I have no obligation to allow the posting of the sort of content I warned about. How you folks manage these discussions without quoting such content is for you to solve. Link to it if you must. Be aware that I have no sense of humor about it whatsoever, and I do understand that much similar content was uttered by historical figures. That was not the case in this instance.

Let me know what you folks think is acceptable and I will take that into consideration.
Your link led me to a post by VFX that didn't asy anything objectionable in my opinion. However, I do notice that the post was edited twice. If you wish to pursue the question any further with me then it might be better if it's done via p.m. because of the sensitive nature of the issue. Thanks.

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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by scrmbldggs » Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:48 pm

montgomery wrote:
Pyrrho wrote:Okay, I have no obligation to allow the posting of the sort of content I warned about. How you folks manage these discussions without quoting such content is for you to solve. Link to it if you must. Be aware that I have no sense of humor about it whatsoever, and I do understand that much similar content was uttered by historical figures. That was not the case in this instance.

Let me know what you folks think is acceptable and I will take that into consideration.
Your link led me to a post by VFX that didn't asy anything objectionable in my opinion. However, I do notice that the post was edited twice. If you wish to pursue the question any further with me then it might be better if it's done via p.m. because of the sensitive nature of the issue. Thanks.
You knew very well VFX edited that post before you quoted and long after Pyrrho's post.
montgomery wrote:
Pyrrho wrote:VFX, please do not post dehumanizing, defamatory content directed at ethnic or religious groups. In this case, anti-semitic glorification of mass murder.

viewtopic.php?p=662662#p662662
I find that unacceptable for this section of the forum. I made it clear from the beginning that my participation would only be on fair terms for all. This is not that in my opinion.

But it is way past time that you took an interest in moderating this forum. You get to decide now whether it will be with my participation or not.

This is totally unacceptable bias against VFX!

As for the disappeared image/quote, that's not quite as gone as you guys obviously hope.
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by scrmbldggs » Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:10 pm

Maybe that dishonest member's posting ability should be restricted...
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:14 pm

You mean montgomery?

I assume VFX edited it after Pyrrho's warning. The dishonest one is the member pretending that no objectionable content was posted, unless he shares the urge to fire up the ovens.

I personally do not want to have such stuff posted in this forum. It violates a reasonable policy, and it takes us down to the level of Rodoh.

Pyrrho warned the member who posted it, appropriately in my opinion. If montgomery wants to play games about it, that's his prerogative. At a certain point, however, the games get tiring. Just sayin'.
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by scrmbldggs » Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:24 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:You mean montgomery?

I assume VFX edited it after Pyrrho's warning.
That's clearly discernible by the timestamps.
The dishonest one is the member pretending that no objectionable content was posted, unless he shares the urge to fire up the ovens.

He falsely complained about the by then edited and cleaned up post being "falsely moderated".

I personally do not want to have such stuff posted in this forum. It violates a reasonable policy, and it takes us down to the level of Rodoh.

Pyrrho warned the member who posted it, appropriately in my opinion. If montgomery wants to play games about it, that's his prerogative. At a certain point, however, the games get tiring. Just sayin'.
Ditto
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Darren Wilshak » Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:25 pm

Exactly if I want to see the sick contents of Traynors mind VFX, I can go and peruse rodoh. I don't.

Thritto

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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Balsamo » Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:35 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:You mean montgomery?

I assume VFX edited it after Pyrrho's warning. The dishonest one is the member pretending that no objectionable content was posted, unless he shares the urge to fire up the ovens.

I personally do not want to have such stuff posted in this forum. It violates a reasonable policy, and it takes us down to the level of Rodoh.

Pyrrho warned the member who posted it, appropriately in my opinion. If montgomery wants to play games about it, that's his prerogative. At a certain point, however, the games get tiring. Just sayin'.
For a moment, i thought Pyrrho deleted your music video about the Lobsters... :?

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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:48 pm

the Napsters?
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Balsamo » Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:49 pm

:lol:

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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by scrmbldggs » Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:26 pm

:lol:
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Pyrrho » Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:22 am

montgomery wrote:
Pyrrho wrote:Okay, I have no obligation to allow the posting of the sort of content I warned about. How you folks manage these discussions without quoting such content is for you to solve. Link to it if you must. Be aware that I have no sense of humor about it whatsoever, and I do understand that much similar content was uttered by historical figures. That was not the case in this instance.

Let me know what you folks think is acceptable and I will take that into consideration.
Your link led me to a post by VFX that didn't asy anything objectionable in my opinion. However, I do notice that the post was edited twice. If you wish to pursue the question any further with me then it might be better if it's done via p.m. because of the sensitive nature of the issue. Thanks.
I prefer to discuss forum policy matters openly.

VFX has edited the post to remove the original content, thus no basis remains for administrative action, and I have rescinded the warning.
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Balmoral95 » Sat Sep 22, 2018 2:27 am

I was hoping you'd say that.

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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by montgomery » Sat Sep 22, 2018 3:57 am

Pyrrho wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Pyrrho wrote:Okay, I have no obligation to allow the posting of the sort of content I warned about. How you folks manage these discussions without quoting such content is for you to solve. Link to it if you must. Be aware that I have no sense of humor about it whatsoever, and I do understand that much similar content was uttered by historical figures. That was not the case in this instance.

Let me know what you folks think is acceptable and I will take that into consideration.
Your link led me to a post by VFX that didn't asy anything objectionable in my opinion. However, I do notice that the post was edited twice. If you wish to pursue the question any further with me then it might be better if it's done via p.m. because of the sensitive nature of the issue. Thanks.
I prefer to discuss forum policy matters openly.

VFX has edited the post to remove the original content, thus no basis remains for administrative action, and I have rescinded the warning.
You gave the impression that the matter was sensitive and that's why I suggested a private discussion. I don't know what the offending post contained but I suppose it doesn't matter now if the warning has been rescinded.

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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Balmoral95 » Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:01 am

Thanks, Pyrrho.

Welcome back to Hell, Trollerjerkoff.

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