March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Hans » Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:01 pm

Balsamo, I would like to know from you if you consider the Mogilev gassing footage as "fiction" (imaginary event), or link to the posting where you have clarified your position. Thanks!

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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Hans » Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:26 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote: Pertinent to this thread is the editors' comment that Winkler & Hohendorf's paper pays particular attention to the murders of patients in Mogilev. I'll post in this thread anything in Winkler & Hohendorf's paper that expands on or differs to the HC series.
I don't want to preempt or influence your findings in anyway ;) , but note that Winkler and Hohendorf only used verdicts of West-German trials, whereas we also examined West-German pre-trial interrogations. On the other hand, they examined some East-German trial record (trial against Georg Frentzel) I had not examined at the time - and still have not found time yet to check out myself - and so I only used from this particular investigation what is quoted in the literature.

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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Balsamo » Thu Sep 20, 2018 5:13 pm

Hans wrote:Balsamo, I would like to know from you if you consider the Mogilev gassing footage as "fiction" (imaginary event), or link to the posting where you have clarified your position. Thanks!

Of course not,
I thought i was clear in my first post.
What i meant is that IF you take the footage alone, and don't bother with the context - studying the context being what your guys did - then, focusing exclusively on the footage, is the kind of stuff that Deniers are fond of.
That is one can legitimately ask questions on how this footage has been found, or in other words, the story is so extraordinary that it can leave room to some doubts.
Having those doubts, of course, and that is the important point, some of you failed to notice in my post, suppose that the footage is ALL WE HAVE.
Now given that you guys have clearly established, through additional research, that the footage actually shows the Mogilev asylum, that is without doubt...then a denier would try to contest the footage origins, and pretend it was filmed by the Soviets, after Mogilev liberation by the Red army.
But this hypothesis is destroyed by again the context and your work, identifying the license plates of the two cars, as even the most informed Soviet propagantist would NOT have bothered to chose license plates numbers that would fit with the EK units that was present at that time at the asylum.

So based on your research, and that was my original point, it has been established that the footage - which taken by itself and isolated from any further research could have been contested - not only is legit, but that it had been shot by the Germans in September 1941.

And, i concluded by remembering our Deniers guests that this is how real history works: One don't take a footage claiming, "hey we got the proof", but we do research around this footage to turn it into a supported and corroborated historical source.

The two things i conceded, which might be the reasons of the misunderstanding :
1./ If technically possible at that time in some editing studio, there is a possibility that the shadow on the wall - which seems the only thing that matters to our guests - MIGHT have been added for further effects, without any influence on the origin of the source. Adding effects does not mean that you shot the whole footage. Saying that to outline that EVEN if this shadow had been added, it'd have had no influence on your conclusions.

2./ That the footage, even shot by Nebe, MIGHT have been shot before (or eventually after) the actual gassing, with the aim of filming the devices/methods that would be used (or had been used) to kill the disabled. Just on the simple idea that Nebe would have been probably much more interested in observing the deadly effects of the new methods, than being outside by himself filming the tubes while people were being gassed inside.

I hope this will explain.
I note, though, that Statmec got it the first time, but he is probably more used to my way of expressing things in English... :lol: he got more training, that's for sure.

One question though, is there a mention of this operation in the Activity Reports (EM)? I am sure having seen Mogilev in later reports, as a killing center, some times in December 41.

PS: I have also added in my first post that killing disabled patients was part of the official policies of the EG in order to free hospital beds as i also remember further entries in the EM about these kinds of murders.

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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Sep 20, 2018 5:51 pm

Hans wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote: Pertinent to this thread is the editors' comment that Winkler & Hohendorf's paper pays particular attention to the murders of patients in Mogilev. I'll post in this thread anything in Winkler & Hohendorf's paper that expands on or differs to the HC series.
I don't want to preempt or influence your findings in anyway ;) , but note that Winkler and Hohendorf only used verdicts of West-German trials, whereas we also examined West-German pre-trial interrogations. On the other hand, they examined some East-German trial record (trial against Georg Frentzel) I had not examined at the time - and still have not found time yet to check out myself - and so I only used from this particular investigation what is quoted in the literature.
thanks, I will look for that in the notes and see how W&H differ to Sergey Romanov and you (sorry for my continuing to attribute the joint series to just Sergey Romanov, btw, I think of it that way because of the first part . . . )
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Thu Sep 20, 2018 6:14 pm

Balsamo wrote:
Hans wrote:Balsamo, I would like to know from you if you consider the Mogilev gassing footage as "fiction" (imaginary event), or link to the posting where you have clarified your position. Thanks!

Of course not,
I thought i was clear in my first post.
What i meant is that IF you take the footage alone, and don't bother with the context - studying the context being what your guys did - then, focusing exclusively on the footage, is the kind of stuff that Deniers are fond of.
That is one can legitimately ask questions on how this footage has been found, or in other words, the story is so extraordinary that it can leave room to some doubts.
Having those doubts, of course, and that is the important point, some of you failed to notice in my post, suppose that the footage is ALL WE HAVE.
Now given that you guys have clearly established, through additional research, that the footage actually shows the Mogilev asylum, that is without doubt...then a denier would try to contest the footage origins, and pretend it was filmed by the Soviets, after Mogilev liberation by the Red army.
But this hypothesis is destroyed by again the context and your work, identifying the license plates of the two cars, as even the most informed Soviet propagantist would NOT have bothered to chose license plates numbers that would fit with the EK units that was present at that time at the asylum.

So based on your research, and that was my original point, it has been established that the footage - which taken by itself and isolated from any further research could have been contested - not only is legit, but that it had been shot by the Germans in September 1941.

And, i concluded by remembering our Deniers guests that this is how real history works: One don't take a footage claiming, "hey we got the proof", but we do research around this footage to turn it into a supported and corroborated historical source.

The two things i conceded, which might be the reasons of the misunderstanding :
1./ If technically possible at that time in some editing studio, there is a possibility that the shadow on the wall - which seems the only thing that matters to our guests - MIGHT have been added for further effects, without any influence on the origin of the source. Adding effects does not mean that you shot the whole footage. Saying that to outline that EVEN if this shadow had been added, it'd have had no influence on your conclusions.

2./ That the footage, even shot by Nebe, MIGHT have been shot before (or eventually after) the actual gassing, with the aim of filming the devices/methods that would be used (or had been used) to kill the disabled. Just on the simple idea that Nebe would have been probably much more interested in observing the deadly effects of the new methods, than being outside by himself filming the tubes while people were being gassed inside.

I hope this will explain.
I note, though, that Statmec got it the first time, but he is probably more used to my way of expressing things in English... :lol: he got more training, that's for sure.

One question though, is there a mention of this operation in the Activity Reports (EM)? I am sure having seen Mogilev in later reports, as a killing center, some times in December 41.

PS: I have also added in my first post that killing disabled patients was part of the official policies of the EG in order to free hospital beds as i also remember further entries in the EM about these kinds of murders.
Full disclosure, I messed that up my first go round.
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Hans » Thu Sep 20, 2018 6:36 pm

Balsamo wrote:
Hans wrote:Balsamo, I would like to know from you if you consider the Mogilev gassing footage as "fiction" (imaginary event), or link to the posting where you have clarified your position. Thanks!

Of course not,
I thought i was clear in my first post.
What i meant is that IF you take the footage alone, and don't bother with the context - studying the context being what your guys did - then, focusing exclusively on the footage, is the kind of stuff that Deniers are fond of.
That is one can legitimately ask questions on how this footage has been found, or in other words, the story is so extraordinary that it can leave room to some doubts.
Having those doubts, of course, and that is the important point, some of you failed to notice in my post, suppose that the footage is ALL WE HAVE.
Now given that you guys have clearly established, through additional research, that the footage actually shows the Mogilev asylum, that is without doubt...then a denier would try to contest the footage origins, and pretend it was filmed by the Soviets, after Mogilev liberation by the Red army.
But this hypothesis is destroyed by again the context and your work, identifying the license plates of the two cars, as even the most informed Soviet propagantist would NOT have bothered to chose license plates numbers that would fit with the EK units that was present at that time at the asylum.

So based on your research, and that was my original point, it has been established that the footage - which taken by itself and isolated from any further research could have been contested - not only is legit, but that it had been shot by the Germans in September 1941.

And, i concluded by remembering our Deniers guests that this is how real history works: One don't take a footage claiming, "hey we got the proof", but we do research around this footage to turn it into a supported and corroborated historical source.

The two things i conceded, which might be the reasons of the misunderstanding :
1./ If technically possible at that time in some editing studio, there is a possibility that the shadow on the wall - which seems the only thing that matters to our guests - MIGHT have been added for further effects, without any influence on the origin of the source. Adding effects does not mean that you shot the whole footage. Saying that to outline that EVEN if this shadow had been added, it'd have had no influence on your conclusions.

2./ That the footage, even shot by Nebe, MIGHT have been shot before (or eventually after) the actual gassing, with the aim of filming the devices/methods that would be used (or had been used) to kill the disabled. Just on the simple idea that Nebe would have been probably much more interested in observing the deadly effects of the new methods, than being outside by himself filming the tubes while people were being gassed inside.

I hope this will explain.
I note, though, that Statmec got it the first time, but he is probably more used to my way of expressing things in English... :lol: he got more training, that's for sure.

One question though, is there a mention of this operation in the Activity Reports (EM)? I am sure having seen Mogilev in later reports, as a killing center, some times in December 41.

PS: I have also added in my first post that killing disabled patients was part of the official policies of the EG in order to free hospital beds as i also remember further entries in the EM about these kinds of murders.

Thanks for the clarification, Balsamo. Frankly, I did not follow this thread anymore when it was more than apparent that montgomery did not care the slightest about any arguments challenging his opinion I had posted in this thread or linked to HC site. But his post elsewhere, if taken seriously, meant that many here had to agree with his believe that the footage his fiction. Not that one should care much about reputation in internet forums, but if he actually managed to convince the majority of non-deniers here, there would have been something seriously wrong with all or parts of the blog series, either with the content or its presentation there or communication here. So it helps to know that his (totally off topic) post in the Chelmno thread was just some attempt of character assassination.

On your question, the liquidation of the mental asylum in Mogilev is mentioned both in a Ereignismeldung UdSSR and in a Operation and Situation report of Einsatzgruppe B and it is further supported by records of the asylum:

The large scale mass killing is further corroborated by contemporary documents. On 3 September 1941, the asylum had an inmate strength of 910 persons, which dropped to 217 by 2 November 1941 according to its records (Winkler & Hohendorf, Die Ermordung der Psychiatriepatientinnen in Mogilew 1941/42, p. 97). The Einsatzgruppe B reported that "863 mentally ill people were specially treated", i.e. killed, in Mogilev up to 9 October 1941 (Activity Report of the Einsatzgruppen no. 108, in Cüppers et al., Die Ereignismeldungen UdSSR 1941, p. 663). Note that the Operation and Situation Report no. 6 of the Einsatzgruppen states that these victims were "shot" (reproduced in Klein, Die Einsatzgruppen in der besetzten Sowjetunion 1941/42, p. 229) - in the light of the above cited testimonies this was apparently meant to obfuscate the actual killing method.
...
The remaining inmates of the asylum were shot in January 1942 and the facility was closed down on 22 January 1942 to be used as military hospital for the German army (letter A. Stepanov to N. Stepanov of 6 March 1942 & interrogation of A. Stepanov of 20 July 1944, in Istoriya mogilyovskogo evrejstva. Dokumenty i lyudi, book 2, part 2, 2nd. edn., 2010, p. 195 f.).
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... ng_23.html

I can look up the original text of the EG reports if you are interested.

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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Sep 20, 2018 6:40 pm

RE EMs, interesting question. Along with discussion in various EMs of executions of Jews in Mogilev and establishment of a ghetto for Jews - and of different actions in which small numbers of people described as Communists, political functionaries, politruks, wandering criminals, and partisans were liquidated - there is a reference in EM 108 (report of EG-B, dated 9 October 1941, which appears to cover events through 28 September 1941) that reads, "In Minsk 632 mentally deficient people and, in Mogilev, 836 were accorded special treatment." IIRC this EM is cited in the HC blog article, in an installment I have yet to post.
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Balsamo » Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:42 pm

Hans:
The liquidation of the mental asylum shown on the footage is mentioned both in a Ereignismeldung UdSSR and in a Operation and Situation report of Einsatzgruppe B and it is further supported by records of the asylum:
Well then, that should end any further discussion as even a denier like Vincent Reynouard admitted that the "Ereignismeldungen" could not have been faked and therefore should be considered as authentic.

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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by VFX » Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:43 pm

Balsamo wrote: But this hypothesis is destroyed by again the context and your work, identifying the license plates of the two cars, as even the most informed Soviet propagantist would NOT have bothered to chose license plates numbers that would fit with the EK units that was present at that time at the asylum.
Oh yes they would which is why they were the masters of deception. They had that attention to detail which few would bother about.
So based on your research, and that was my original point, it has been established that the footage - which taken by itself and isolated from any further research could have been contested - not only is legit, but that it had been shot by the Germans in September 1941.
Not sure how you reach that conclusion. The only legit thing is the shadow on the wall, it is a real shadow but not a German most likely.
And, i concluded by remembering our Deniers guests that this is how real history works: One don't take a footage claiming, "hey we got the proof", but we do research around this footage to turn it into a supported and corroborated historical source.
ah the great art of deception.
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:45 pm

Masters of deception couldn’t even properly frame the Germans for Katyn.

Some masters.
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Balsamo » Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:47 pm

VRX,
Do you know what the "Ereignismeldungen" actually were?
Please share your knowledge.

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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Darren Wilshak » Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:50 pm

Well he's confused, ain't he? He's got to do better than witter about deceptions. I'll take the word of Hans who has been in archives and has expertise in this area over the word of VFX who hasn't and doesn't.

:)

That's my usual entry level test.

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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:53 pm

Time for installment 4 (as with earlier installments, click the link at the bottom for images and hot linked text):
German Footage of a Homicidal Gassing with Engine Exhaust. Part 4: Responsibility (II).
Author: Hans Metzner

In the previous parts of this series, it was established that the gassing footage (shown below as titled compilation and without the sound added after the war) was taken during an action by Einsatzkommando 8 in the Mogilev asylum. In this part, we will look more closely on the circumstances of what may picture the scene.

< graphic missing, see link below >

The Mogilev Test Gassing

In September 1941, the head of Einsatzgruppe B Arthur Nebe summoned his specialist on explosives and toxicology Albert Widmann from the Criminal Technical Institute of the Security Police (KTI) to Minsk and Mogilev to kill mentally ill people with explosives and engine exhaust because "he could not demand from his men to shoot incurable mentally ill" (interrogation of Widmann of 11 January 1960, BArch B162 / 5066, p. 130). Widmann's team - consisting of four people of the KTI and the Reichs Criminal Police (RKPA) in Berlin - headed to Mogilev to kill mentally ill persons with engine exhaust.

In Mogilev, the KTI/RKPA team was joined by the Einsatzgruppe B staff and Einsatzkommando 8. Widmann described the gassing taking place in an asylum in Mogilev as following:
"With the help of a Russian male doctor and two female doctors a room was selected in the asylum, it was a small lab close to the entrance door. The window of this room was walled up, two holes were spared to introduce the sockets for the gas-tubes...On the next morning the exhaust pipe of a car was connected to the introduction socket. Then the mentally ill were led into the room. I cannot tell how many. They were brought with a panje wagon, I estimate it had room for 5 to 8 persons...When the mentally ill were in the room, the engine was started up. Nebe observed the process in the room through a little window and noticed after 5 to 8 minutes that there was no effect. Thereupon a truck engine was connected to the second introduction socket and started up. The consequence was that the mentally ill became unconscious in relatively short time. For safety reasons the engine was still running for 10 minutes. All persons died in this way."
(interrogation of Widmann of 27 January 1960, BArch B 162 / 4338, p. 85, my translation)

Two other members of the team, Hans Schmidt, laboratory assistant at the KTI, and the RKPA driver Alfred Bauer essentially confirmed this action after the war (interrogation of Schmidt of 18 December 1959 & 6 April 1960 & 4 May 1962, BArch B 162 / 5066, p. 127ff. & BArch B 162 / 4338, p. 216 & BArch B 162 / 1604, p. 495ff; interrogation of Bauer of 3 March 1961 & 9 December 1961, BArch B 162 / 4339, p.78 f. & B 162 / 4340, p. 27f). The forth man, the RKPA driver Noack was not available for interrogation, i.e. he was either dead or not tracked down by investigators.

The four men left the scene after the test gassing of 20 to 30 victims (this figure is provided by Schmidt and Bauer). According to Widmann and Bauer, they had previously blown up a bunker with mentally ill in Minsk and moved on to Smolensk after the Mogilev gassing, while according to Schmidt they first carried out the gassing and then went on for the explosive action to Minsk, which is also indicated by Nebe's staff member Andreas von Amburger, who was told about the gassing by the Einsatzgruppe B doctor Hans Battista. According to von Amburger's testimony, 80 mentally ill were killed in batches of 20 victims (interrogation of von Amburger of 27 December 1945 & 25 September 1959 & 3 April 1962, BArch B 162 / 21555, p. 1327 & B 162 / 5066, p. 116 & BArch B 162 / 3298, p. 144).

According to Widmann, he was supposed to meet with Nebe and the Higher SS and Police Leader Erich von dem Bach in Smolensk to discuss the results, but allegedly von dem Bach did not show up because he was "injured from a low strafing attack" (interrogation of Widmann of 11 January 1960, BArch, B 162 / 5066, p. 136). Von dem Bach's diary reports a similar incident on 17 September 1941 - he almost became victim of a Soviet air raid -, except that he was not injured and did actually meet with Nebe on this day (diary of von dem Bach, cited in Gerlach, Kalkulierte Morde, p. 649). Gerlach points out that Widmann may have had tried to cover von dem Bach by denying that he was present during the discussion of the killing trials in Smolensk. According to Bauer, the gassing took place on a Monday (interrogation of Bauer of 3 March 1961, BArch B 162 / 4339, p.78). If Widmann's and Bauer's sequence of the events is correct, this suggests that the experimental gassing in Mogilev was carried out on Monday, 15 September 1941.

It is usually considered that the film footage of the Mogilev gassing shows this test run described by the KTI/RKPA team (e.g. Beer, The Development of the Gas-Van in the Murdering of the Jews, Angrick, Besatzungspolitik und Massenmord, p. 371, Winkler & Hohendorf, Die Ermordung der Psychiatriepatientinnen in Mogilew 1941/42 in: Winkler et al., Krieg und Psychiatrie 1914 - 1950, p. 91). Other than substanial similarities between the testimonies and the footage (e.g. bricked window with two connections, two hoses connected to an Adler cabriolet, which was indeed among vehicles brought from the RKPA, and a truck), it is also plausible that such first experiment with engine exhaust was documented in some way. Furthermore, the film sequence was found in the former house of Nebe after the war and Nebe's presence at the test gassing has been attested by Widmann & Bauer. Nebe also seems to have had some affinity to such kind of footage, as he supposedly showed the Euthanasia film Dasein ohne Leben to hundreds of SS officers.

Conclusion & Outlook

It is the most straightforward and intuitive interpretation that the footage shows the test gassing described by Widmann and others. It is, however, also not without its problems, as we will see in the next part. It will also feature alternative interpretations.
with permission: http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... ssing.html
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by VFX » Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:54 pm

I assume you mean the event messages or incident messages after each action. These are the Die EreignismeldungUdSSR.
Dispatches. They gave the progress against the Partisans and terrorists behind the army lines in the Eastern front. What is the issue, no one is denying that there were summary executions.
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by scrmbldggs » Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:08 pm

Balsamo wrote:VRX,
Do you know what the "Ereignismeldungen" actually were?
Please share your knowledge.
Maybe he could start with TuLBs.
.
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by VFX » Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:23 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
Balsamo wrote:VRX,
Do you know what the "Ereignismeldungen" actually were?
Please share your knowledge.
Maybe he could start with TuLBs.
Taetigkeits- und Lageberichte der Einsatzgruppen,
Once received in Berlin, they were transcribed and edited by civil servants, and distributed in summary format, called the Tätigkeits- und Lageberichte (TuLBs) der Einsatzgruppen, to non-SS offices such as the German Foreign Office. In total, there are 194 Ereignismeldungen, 7 TuLBs der Einsatzgruppen and 12 TuLBs of Einsatzgruppen B in existence today—all of them copies, and none in the original.
The Einsatzgruppen were set up with two purposes, all of which was openly stated in the authentic and surviving German documentation.
These purposes were, firstly, to physically eliminate the entire Soviet Communist Party Commissar structure in areas occupied by the German army as it advanced eastward; and secondly to coordinate anti-partisan fighting behind the front line so as to ensure that there was as little disruption as possible to German supply lines.
Source
The authenticity question surrounding the Ereignismeldungen and TuLBs has been further questioned by researchers because, once again, like so much other “evidence” of Nazi atrocities, the documents emerged from the Soviet occupation zone.
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:26 pm

LOL
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Hans » Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:28 pm

Balsamo wrote: The two things i conceded, which might be the reasons of the misunderstanding :
1./ If technically possible at that time in some editing studio, there is a possibility that the shadow on the wall - which seems the only thing that matters to our guests - MIGHT have been added for further effects, without any influence on the origin of the source. Adding effects does not mean that you shot the whole footage. Saying that to outline that EVEN if this shadow had been added, it'd have had no influence on your conclusions.
Well, I would say that the mere possibility that the shadow had been added, because the original film is not available for examination and because sound effect has been added, does not create significant probability (which matters, ultimately). There is no reason why the shadow should not have been on the footage taken by the Germans. If some feature is anachronistic, unnatural or at least very odd, there would be some probability for tampering with, if this was possible, but the shadow of military/police man on the wall of a site that was full of military/police men on some film is not odd at all. So far it cannot be argued that the shadow does not belong there, historically or otherwise.
2./ That the footage, even shot by Nebe, MIGHT have been shot before (or eventually after) the actual gassing, with the aim of filming the devices/methods that would be used (or had been used) to kill the disabled. Just on the simple idea that Nebe would have been probably much more interested in observing the deadly effects of the new methods, than being outside by himself filming the tubes while people were being gassed inside.
The gassing setup scene was very likely taken at the day of gassing(s) (since it makes no sense that they filmed the transport and unloading, but not the gassing setup, just to stage it later on). Given that they filmed the transport of mentally ill people, the unloading of mentally ill people, one would expect that they also filmed an actual gassing (instead of a setup not in operation). But it's true that eventually it is not known if this specific gassing setup scene was taken before, during or after gassing on that day.

As pointed out in the blog series, eyewitnesses of homicidal gassings at the Mogilev asylum described that the vehicles had been perpendicular to the building. The parallel orientation on the footage might suggest that the vehicles had been moved by the Einsatzgruppen staff in order to have a better view on the gassing setup.
Last edited by Hans on Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:29 pm

anyway, as to some of the nonsense being purveyed here: viewtopic.php?f=39&t=25822#p474845

I am glad to know that Google's search tool works and brings truth-seekers to dodgy websites.
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Balmoral95 » Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:32 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:LOL
I enjoyed that :lol:

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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:33 pm

Here is a thread focused on the charge that "The obvioud explanation is, of course, that the Soviets forged the documents," that is, the EMs and TuLBs. I hope we needn't entertain bad behavior from some members here and either hand wave away such a long discussion or repeat it.
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:34 pm

Balmoral95 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:LOL
I enjoyed that :lol:
I had to peek at that one ...
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:48 pm

"aggressively stupid," I think that is a valid concept
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by VFX » Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:54 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Here is a thread focused on the charge that "The obvioud explanation is, of course, that the Soviets forged the documents," that is, the EMs and TuLBs. I hope we needn't entertain bad behavior from some members here and either hand wave away such a long discussion or repeat it.
If there is no intention of discussion then it should not have been mentioned in this topic.
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by scrmbldggs » Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:09 pm

VFX wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Here is a thread focused on the charge that "The obvioud explanation is, of course, that the Soviets forged the documents," that is, the EMs and TuLBs. I hope we needn't entertain bad behavior from some members here and either hand wave away such a long discussion or repeat it.
If there is no intention of discussion then it should not have been mentioned in this topic.
:| :laff:
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:11 pm

LOL please, please with the quotations! but they are funny . . .
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by scrmbldggs » Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:14 pm

Maybe our curious critter can figure it out for him/herself from this post?
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by VFX » Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:22 pm

These transcripts which were sent by radio were not decrypted by Bletchley Park. This is another reason why they are considered bogus.
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by scrmbldggs » Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:36 pm

:|
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:41 pm

I...just...what?

They weren’t decoded so they are bogus?
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Darren Wilshak » Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:44 pm

Well that's a new one.

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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:00 pm

Yup.
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by montgomery » Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:10 pm

Balsamo wrote:
Hans wrote:Balsamo, I would like to know from you if you consider the Mogilev gassing footage as "fiction" (imaginary event), or link to the posting where you have clarified your position. Thanks!

Of course not,
I thought i was clear in my first post.
What i meant is that IF you take the footage alone, and don't bother with the context - studying the context being what your guys did - then, focusing exclusively on the footage, is the kind of stuff that Deniers are fond of.
That is one can legitimately ask questions on how this footage has been found, or in other words, the story is so extraordinary that it can leave room to some doubts.
Having those doubts, of course, and that is the important point, some of you failed to notice in my post, suppose that the footage is ALL WE HAVE.
Now given that you guys have clearly established, through additional research, that the footage actually shows the Mogilev asylum, that is without doubt...then a denier would try to contest the footage origins, and pretend it was filmed by the Soviets, after Mogilev liberation by the Red army.
But this hypothesis is destroyed by again the context and your work, identifying the license plates of the two cars, as even the most informed Soviet propagantist would NOT have bothered to chose license plates numbers that would fit with the EK units that was present at that time at the asylum.

So based on your research, and that was my original point, it has been established that the footage - which taken by itself and isolated from any further research could have been contested - not only is legit, but that it had been shot by the Germans in September 1941.

And, i concluded by remembering our Deniers guests that this is how real history works: One don't take a footage claiming, "hey we got the proof", but we do research around this footage to turn it into a supported and corroborated historical source.

The two things i conceded, which might be the reasons of the misunderstanding :
1./ If technically possible at that time in some editing studio, there is a possibility that the shadow on the wall - which seems the only thing that matters to our guests - MIGHT have been added for further effects, without any influence on the origin of the source. Adding effects does not mean that you shot the whole footage. Saying that to outline that EVEN if this shadow had been added, it'd have had no influence on your conclusions.

2./ That the footage, even shot by Nebe, MIGHT have been shot before (or eventually after) the actual gassing, with the aim of filming the devices/methods that would be used (or had been used) to kill the disabled. Just on the simple idea that Nebe would have been probably much more interested in observing the deadly effects of the new methods, than being outside by himself filming the tubes while people were being gassed inside.

I hope this will explain.
I note, though, that Statmec got it the first time, but he is probably more used to my way of expressing things in English... :lol: he got more training, that's for sure.

One question though, is there a mention of this operation in the Activity Reports (EM)? I am sure having seen Mogilev in later reports, as a killing center, some times in December 41.

PS: I have also added in my first post that killing disabled patients was part of the official policies of the EG in order to free hospital beds as i also remember further entries in the EM about these kinds of murders.
It took you a lot of words to just say the film was a fake. Except for your explanation of the shadow on the wall thing where you seem to be saying it was added later fro dramatic effect.
then, focusing exclusively on the footage, is the kind of stuff that Deniers are fond of.
Yeah, that's what people do when the film is foisted on them as being proof. Oh, and the shadow isn't the only problem with that bogus piece of fluff fakery. It was film linked together and broken with pauses in the flim, and the peices that would have to correspond to the other pieces didn't even match. Maybe they weren't supposed to?? The first shot of the 3 or 4 guys on the wagon sure the hell weren't the same ones that were being helped off of it.

And then that ridiculous shadow that some of you are still trying to make out as the real thing with the sun low in the sky?? Duhhhhhhhh!

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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by VFX » Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:10 pm

No Jeff, they were in Soviet hands: as repeatedly said these guys had much to gain by hiding their own crimes and blaming the Nazis. This alone put serious doubt as to their authenticity. If these documents were corroborated by SIGINT at Bletchley Park one could vouch for their authenticity without doubt. To date there is no corroboration of these items and the signals intelligence intercepts. Due to ionic bounce etc those radio signals which traversed Europe would have been picked up. It was rather low grade police encryption. Bletchley Park got many police intercepts of executions but nothing relating to the documents mentioned above indicating genocide on the scale suggested. In fact there is only one possible document that could allude to a genocide and that is the Höfle Telegram which is not related to the Action Squads at all.
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:29 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:I...just...what?

They weren’t decoded so they are bogus?
Meh. Someone's purveying ignorant twaddle. This has actually been considered. In his book Official Secrets, Richard Breitman wrote (p 190):

Image

One has to be aware of different codes for signals traffic of different agencies, and how the communications from the EGs in the field were sent back to the Gestapo headquarters in Berlin - instead of lumping all signals together in an effort to sound like one knows what one's talking about. Also, one needs to know which keys were broken by Bletchley Park.

More recently, Nicholas Terry, in “Conflicting Signals: British Intelligence on the ‘Final Solution’ through Radio Intercepts and Other Sources, 1941-1942,”, p 368, confirmed Breitman's point: “there is no indication that the British ever broke the Enigma signals traffic of the RSHA or Gestapo.”

OTOH, in Nick Terry's primer, which I linked to above, we can read that "There are other scattered documents from the Orpo in Wehrmacht files and of course there are the Police Decodes intercepted by the British, which count as external corroboration of the Waffen-SS and Police reports, thus are indirect to the Einsatzgruppen." In "Conflicting Signals," many instances of police decodes corroborating what is in the written EMs are discussed.

Nick Terry has researched this and may want to improve on my rudimentary knowledge.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by montgomery » Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:31 pm

VFX wrote:No Jeff, they were in Soviet hands: as repeatedly said these guys had much to gain by hiding their own crimes and blaming the Nazis. This alone put serious doubt as to their authenticity. If these documents were corroborated by SIGINT at Bletchley Park one could vouch for their authenticity without doubt. To date there is no corroboration of these items and the signals intelligence intercepts. Due to ionic bounce etc those radio signals which traversed Europe would have been picked up. It was rather low grade police encryption. Bletchley Park got many police intercepts of executions but nothing relating to the documents mentioned above indicating genocide on the scale suggested. In fact there is only one possible document that could allude to a genocide and that is the Höfle Telegram which is not related to the Action Squads at all.

I swear VFX, this lack of evidence is going to make a denier out of me some day. For now i remain a skeptic who's hoping for that one great piece of evidence that is solid proof of something? Crap like the Mogliev thing just make things worse!

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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:44 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:OTOH, in Nick Terry's primer, which I linked to above, we can read that "There are other scattered documents from the Orpo in Wehrmacht files and of course there are the Police Decodes intercepted by the British, which count as external corroboration of the Waffen-SS and Police reports, thus are indirect to the Einsatzgruppen." In "Conflicting Signals," many instances of police decodes corroborating what is in the written EMs are discussed.
Some of these corroborating decodes of police signals, including signals relative to the exhumation and destruction of mass graves, are discussed in Hanyok, Eavesdropping on Hell: Historical Guide to Western Communications Intelligence and the Holocaust, 1939-1945.
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by VFX » Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:45 pm

In Bertrams Enigma he states that 3000 German Police messages were intercepted. 21 August 1941 there was a message that stated that 5130 Jews had been shot by SS and Police units. You can read this Eavesdropping on hell.
It would seem then that RSHA decrypts were available to the codebreakers at Bletchley Park. Thank you for your message it was very interesting and worthy of true study not a cursory lookover.
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by montgomery » Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:48 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:OTOH, in Nick Terry's primer, which I linked to above, we can read that "There are other scattered documents from the Orpo in Wehrmacht files and of course there are the Police Decodes intercepted by the British, which count as external corroboration of the Waffen-SS and Police reports, thus are indirect to the Einsatzgruppen." In "Conflicting Signals," many instances of police decodes corroborating what is in the written EMs are discussed.
Some of these corroborating decodes of police signals, including signals relative to the exhumation and destruction of mass graves, are discussed in Hanyok, Eavesdropping on Hell: Historical Guide to Western Communications Intelligence and the Holocaust, 1939-1945.
You've improved your behavior a lot. Did you finally realize that the spamming and personal insults weren't working for you?

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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:54 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:I...just...what?

They weren’t decoded so they are bogus?
Meh. Someone's purveying ignorant twaddle. This has actually been considered. In his book Official Secrets, Richard Breitman wrote (p 190):

Image

One has to be aware of different codes for signals traffic of different agencies, and how the communications from the EGs in the field were sent back to the Gestapo headquarters in Berlin - instead of lumping all signals together in an effort to sound like one knows what one's talking about. Also, one needs to know which keys were broken by Bletchley Park.

More recently, Nicholas Terry, in “Conflicting Signals: British Intelligence on the ‘Final Solution’ through Radio Intercepts and Other Sources, 1941-1942,”, p 368, confirmed Breitman's point: “there is no indication that the British ever broke the Enigma signals traffic of the RSHA or Gestapo.”

OTOH, in Nick Terry's primer, which I linked to above, we can read that "There are other scattered documents from the Orpo in Wehrmacht files and of course there are the Police Decodes intercepted by the British, which count as external corroboration of the Waffen-SS and Police reports, thus are indirect to the Einsatzgruppen." In "Conflicting Signals," many instances of police decodes corroborating what is in the written EMs are discussed.

Nick Terry has researched this and may want to improve on my rudimentary knowledge.
Yes, they couldn’t catch everything, depending on how reports were transmitted meant various degrees of success on what was caught and decoded.

If memory serves (a tricky thing at best, I’ll read what you linked in a bit but my phone is getting ready to die) the British intercepted traffic regarding the mass shootings in the Summer of 1941. Churchill even released a statement on it in November of 1941 (I believe).

I might be repeating what you posted, I just glanced at it real quick as I’m getting ready to lose my phone.
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“NKVD.”
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