March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by VFX » Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:06 am

I do understand that much similar content was uttered by historical figures.
I thought Charles Traynor was a famous historical figure. He will be so dissapointed.
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by VFX » Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:14 am

Darren Wilshak wrote:Exactly if I want to see the sick contents of Traynors mind VFX, I can go and peruse rodoh. I don't.

Thritto
Nah you are not really wanted. Charles wont like you, nor will Fritz or BT.
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Balmoral95 » Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:41 pm

VFX wrote:
Darren Wilshak wrote:Exactly if I want to see the sick contents of Traynors mind VFX, I can go and peruse rodoh. I don't.

Thritto
Nah you are not really wanted. Charles wont like you, nor will Fritz or BT.
The Troika of Malevolent Morons? Who cares?

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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Sep 22, 2018 2:13 pm

Is BT in the house then?
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by scrmbldggs » Sat Sep 22, 2018 2:15 pm

It must be. Bored to Tears Because of Troglodyte sure is happening.
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Darren Wilshak » Sat Sep 22, 2018 4:10 pm

Berg, Traynor and Been There,

LOL

I don't think so VFX...I really don't think so. It doesn't seem to have helped you much.

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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by montgomery » Sat Sep 22, 2018 5:21 pm

VFX wrote:
Darren Wilshak wrote:Exactly if I want to see the sick contents of Traynors mind VFX, I can go and peruse rodoh. I don't.

Thritto
Nah you are not really wanted. Charles wont like you, nor will Fritz or BT.
If we can't convince them to behave themselves then I'm thinking that maybe we just join into the spamming of this section of the forum and make the whole holocaust into the big joke they're promoting. Nessie isn't going to like it but Nessie has to face his responsibility too, like we at least tried to do.

And the high side of doing that is, it cuts S.M., Hans, JeffK, and any other semi-serious Zionism supporters right off at the knees.

(which I suspect has already been done to S.M. in a more literal sense.)

I'm ready to play if play is what they want to do!

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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Balmoral95 » Sat Sep 22, 2018 5:27 pm

montgomery wrote:
VFX wrote:
Darren Wilshak wrote:Exactly if I want to see the sick contents of Traynors mind VFX, I can go and peruse rodoh. I don't.

Thritto
Nah you are not really wanted. Charles wont like you, nor will Fritz or BT.
If we can't convince them to behave themselves then I'm thinking that maybe we just join into the spamming of this section of the forum and make the whole holocaust into the big joke they're promoting. Nessie isn't going to like it but Nessie has to face his responsibility too, like we at least tried to do.

And the high side of doing that is, it cuts S.M., Hans, JeffK, and any other semi-serious Zionism supporters right off at the knees.

(which I suspect has already been done to S.M. in a more literal sense.)

I'm ready to play if play is what they want to do!
Old Swedish proverb says, "Big winds come from empty caves".

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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by scrmbldggs » Sat Sep 22, 2018 5:28 pm

montgomery wrote:...cut(s)...off at the knees. ...(which I suspect has already been done to S.M. in a more literal sense.)...
You keep referring to disabilities as if there was any shame to such. Do you have none?
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by montgomery » Sat Sep 22, 2018 5:30 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
montgomery wrote:...(which I suspect has already been done to S.M. in a more literal sense.)...
You keep referring to disabilities as if there was any shame to such. Do you have none?
https://www.ikea.com/PIAimages/0278143_PE417614_S3.JPG

A picture of your dad caught changing with his yolk off! :lol:

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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by scrmbldggs » Sat Sep 22, 2018 5:31 pm

montgomery wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:
montgomery wrote:...(which I suspect has already been done to S.M. in a more literal sense.)...
You keep referring to disabilities as if there was any shame to such. Do you have none?
https://www.ikea.com/PIAimages/0278143_PE417614_S3.JPG

A picture of your dad caught changing with his yolk off! :lol:
Stalker spam
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by montgomery » Sat Sep 22, 2018 5:36 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
montgomery wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:
montgomery wrote:...(which I suspect has already been done to S.M. in a more literal sense.)...
You keep referring to disabilities as if there was any shame to such. Do you have none?
https://www.ikea.com/PIAimages/0278143_PE417614_S3.JPG

A picture of your dad caught changing with his yolk off! :lol:
Stalker spam
Are you starting to learn something about spam eggs? Lost more coming if you give the o.k!

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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by scrmbldggs » Sat Sep 22, 2018 5:37 pm

montgomery wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:
montgomery wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:
montgomery wrote:...(which I suspect has already been done to S.M. in a more literal sense.)...
You keep referring to disabilities as if there was any shame to such. Do you have none?
https://www.ikea.com/PIAimages/0278143_PE417614_S3.JPG

A picture of your dad caught changing with his yolk off! :lol:
Stalker spam
Are you starting to learn something about spam eggs? Lost more coming if you give the o.k!
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by VFX » Sat Sep 22, 2018 5:51 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
montgomery wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:
montgomery wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:
montgomery wrote:...(which I suspect has already been done to S.M. in a more literal sense.)...
You keep referring to disabilities as if there was any shame to such. Do you have none?
https://www.ikea.com/PIAimages/0278143_PE417614_S3.JPG

A picture of your dad caught changing with his yolk off! :lol:
Stalker spam
Are you starting to learn something about spam eggs? Lost more coming if you give the o.k!
He complains about spam and a few seconds later spams this? What is going on? Are the nutters running the asylum? :shock:
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by montgomery » Sat Sep 22, 2018 5:54 pm

VFX wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:
montgomery wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:
montgomery wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:
montgomery wrote:...(which I suspect has already been done to S.M. in a more literal sense.)...
You keep referring to disabilities as if there was any shame to such. Do you have none?
https://www.ikea.com/PIAimages/0278143_PE417614_S3.JPG

A picture of your dad caught changing with his yolk off! :lol:
Stalker spam
Are you starting to learn something about spam eggs? Lost more coming if you give the o.k!
He complains about spam and a few seconds later spams this? What is going on? Are the nutters running the asylum? :shock:
The only difference between you and your accomplice eggs, is that eggs get(s) laid (layed) and you don't. :lol:

You let me know honey when you are ready to stop the spam!

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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Balsamo » Sat Sep 22, 2018 6:50 pm

What happened to your manners, Montgomery?

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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:02 pm

Balsamo wrote:What happened to your manners, Montgomery?
IKR?
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by scrmbldggs » Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:16 pm

Since there's no "montgomery", there is not and never has been-there any 'manners'. :lol:
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by montgomery » Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:53 pm

Balsamo wrote:What happened to your manners, Montgomery?
It had to happen sooner or later Balsamo, and you did nothing to prevent this forum from turnning into a complete waste of air.

So now, do you want to try to bring it back to something that resembles a grownup look at the real issues or do you just want to join in with the rest of the rabble and help tear it down?

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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by scrmbldggs » Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:11 pm

montgomery wrote:
Balsamo wrote:What happened to your manners, Montgomery?
It had to happen sooner or later Balsamo, and you did nothing to prevent this forum from turnning into a complete waste of air.

So now, do you want to try to bring it back to something that resembles a grownup look at the real issues or do you just want to join in with the rest of the rabble and help tear it down?
Puh-leeze. :lol: Not even in your wildest dreams would Balsamo ever consider joining you two clowns.
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by scrmbldggs » Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:14 pm

Apologies to all who never peek, there's just all too often such hilarity involved, one can't always pass it up.
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Darren Wilshak » Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:20 pm

There seems to be far less that is interesting to read here.

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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Sep 22, 2018 9:07 pm

@scrmbldggs, for me at least, no worries. Been there, done this, not following much of this this weekend, not reading even the quoted stuff. No loss. Working on a non-H related project, then some posts on longer surviving pockets of Jews in various kinds of camps in the occupied East who also did not wind up in the USSR . . . but that will wait . . . my weekend is taken up with some other stuff . . .
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by scrmbldggs » Sat Sep 22, 2018 9:13 pm

Aw, the stalking rabble will be very disappointed hearing that.
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Balmoral95 » Sat Sep 22, 2018 9:43 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:@scrmbldggs, for me at least, no worries. Been there, done this, not following much of this this weekend, not reading even the quoted stuff. No loss. Working on a non-H related project, then some posts on longer surviving pockets of Jews in various kinds of camps in the occupied East who also did not wind up in the USSR . . . but that will wait . . . my weekend is taken up with some other stuff . . .
You really trying to tell us you'd rather be doing "other stuff" than sparring with a wormy, lying, paranoiac, ex-pat Brit? :mrgreen:

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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Sep 22, 2018 10:11 pm

LOL *hanging head* uh yeah, holy moly, I mean, true sheesh ... the interest level tapered off with montgomery's 2nd or 3rd post ... if you can call it "sparring" with those lot ... more like trying to get a 3 year old to focus ...
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by montgomery » Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:09 pm

Balmoral95 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:@scrmbldggs, for me at least, no worries. Been there, done this, not following much of this this weekend, not reading even the quoted stuff. No loss. Working on a non-H related project, then some posts on longer surviving pockets of Jews in various kinds of camps in the occupied East who also did not wind up in the USSR . . . but that will wait . . . my weekend is taken up with some other stuff . . .
You really trying to tell us you'd rather be doing "other stuff" than sparring with a wormy, lying, paranoiac, ex-pat Brit? :mrgreen:
Am I an ex-pat Brit now?

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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Darren Wilshak » Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:05 pm

An uncanny likeness of a deceitful troll.

Image

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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by montgomery » Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:28 pm

Yes Darren, we know it's getting close to Hallowe'en and it a very spooky cartoon for teenagers, bur surely Shirley, don't you feel just a little bit embarrassed?

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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Oct 10, 2018 6:54 pm

Somewhat related ....

In her new book Reckonings Mary Fulbrook surveys the postwar trial landscape. She pays particular attention to trials in the immediate postwar years dealing with "euthanasia" perpetrators. Three background points of note: first, before the 1960s, writes Fulbrook, "trials relating to killings of the mentally and physically disabled within the Reich largely preceded public preoccupation with the mass murder of the Jews in the East." Second, sentences by West German and Austrian courts of perpetrators were, after 1946-1947, quite lenient; although the courts found that those charged had been involved in the killings, they found reasons to mitigate the punishments (courts in the DDR generally punished guilty perpetrators more harshly). (In line with this, lower level perpetrators who acted as part of the murder program - orderlies, building workers, care-givers - tended to be punished more harshly than professionals and members of elites, that is, than those who designed and managed the killing program.)

Third, in contrast to the law for murder cases in many other countries, German law emphasizes the subjective state of mind of the accused. The law (section 211 of the penal code) requires for a charge of murder to be sustained that the accused acted on personal initiative and from base motives, in a malicious manner (cruelly or sadistically - "with "excess"), for individual gain, and with awareness of the illegality of the act of killing. If these elements cannot be shown in a case involving the killing of a victim, but the defendant killed the victim, courts cannot find for murder but rather for "aiding and abetting."

With these background issues in mind, particularly that the courts found that the killings had taken place and that those accused had been involved in them, I wanted to look at the defenses offered by those on trial and then why courts tended to decide in favor of lenient penalties.

Defenses offered by the accused

In the earliest cases, the defense of superior orders was common as they were throughout the period - with the accused arguing that their participation had been ordered by powerful, superior authorities whom they had no choice but to obey. Also, in 1946 infamous Dr Friedrich Mennecke defended himself as an unwilling participant in the "euthanasia," despite his letters to his wife describing in proud detail his willing role, and that he had had to balance conflicting demands and duties.

This latter defense, in which a defendant argued that his inward disposition had not led him to kill but that subjectively he opposed the killings which were demanded of him, became increasingly important. Some defendants went so far as to offer details about how the killings were carried out - painlessly, for example using Luminal, regulating in gentle, not brutal, deaths; these defenses often stressed successful deception, which, it was argued, spared the victims and their families the horror of what faced them. Sometimes defendants pleaded that the "euthanasia" program was a social good. One defendant, Dr Alfred Leu, argued that by participating in the killings he was somehow sabotaging the killing program.

What is missing from every one of these prevalent defenses is the one defense that should have been made in the world according to deniers (the set of them, like this who have posted here, not accepting that about 250,000 people were put to death in the various euthanasia programs): that the killings were never ordered and never took place.

Court decisions and sentences

Early court cases in Austria resulted in a number of convictions with a mix of sentences, the most serious offenders receiving death sentences. In West Germany, right after the war the situation was similar, but by 1947 the tide was turning toward leniency in the "euthanasia" cases. Despite finding that refusal to participate in "euthanasia killings" did not result in significant hardship for a person opting out, in a trial in Frankfurt involving Hadamar physicians and nurses, as early as 1947 the court handed down much softer punishments than American tribunals had in a Hadamar trial in 1945 - along with a number of acquittals.

Typically convictions began to be for aiding and abetting, not murder; and the number of acquittals increased.

By 1949 a Württemberg court, where the defendants were on trial for the murders of 10,000 patients at Grafeneck, most defendants were acquitted and the longest sentence for those convicted was just three years. In the same year a Hamburg court, echoing Nazi views, wrote in its judgment that
the destruction of completely mentally dead individuals and "empty husks of humanity" [was not] absolutely and a priori immoral.
Increasingly courts in West Germany found, in contrast to those in the DDR, that those involved in the killings were not aware that they were illegal and thus acted from misguided motives, not out of base motives or cruelty, not for personal benefit, and not with maliciousness. Thus, convictions were for lesser charges and penalties reduced from those that would have been received for murder.

For professional and elite defendants courts more and more stressed the idea of a conflict of duties - with the claim that the defendant killed patients to prevent greater harm - namely, that the accused had administered death with mercy or that some of the doomed were saved when the accused killed fewer than were slated to be murdered. Courts accepted this defense, which relied on a concept of an inward disposition in which a person supposedly subjectively opposed the murders in which he unwillingly participated. In the Leu case mentioned above, the court accepted the bizarre contention that Leu's killing of children was evidence of his inward intent to sabotage the child-murder program.

Finally, in a number of cases the accused pleaded that their physical or mental condition (including stress over the charges) precluded their standing trial. In one case a doctor manipulated his medical test results and induced vomiting of blood on the way to court to be declared unfit for trial.

Participants in the T4 and related murder programs were required to sign a pledge of secrecy; in the DDR the signing of this pledge was taken as evidence of the participants' knowledge of the illegality of the "euthanasia" killings. Not so in West German courts, after 1947. In many cases defendants were acquitted or found guilty of lesser charges because of supposed confusion over what constituted illegal killing.

Courts also in a number of cases found defendants - including the physician who induced vomiting and including in another case where a defendant feigned dementia only to give a cogent television interview shortly afterward - unfit for trial.

What is missing from these court decisions, including even the acquittals, is the one finding that should have been made in the world according to deniers (the set of them not accepting that about 250,000 people were put to death in the various euthanasia programs): that the killings were never ordered and never took place.

Fulbrook, Reckonings, pp 241, 245-246, 266-280
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:46 pm

Well, what about the defendants against charges of mass murder of the Jews?

Here's a summarized listing of defenses offered by the accused in the Frankfurt Auschwitz trial, the various Einsatz Reinhard trials, and the Majdanek trials as mentioned by Fulbrook in her book Reckonings (pp 295-312):

- superior orders; fear of disobeying orders; duty to carry out orders like a soldier (often accepted by West German courts despite research by Henrichsen of Ludwigsburg Central Office which turned up zero cases of refusals putting a person's life endanger against numerous cases of refusals, e.g., to work on Birkenau ramp or to play a part in selections, having only negligible consequences)
- in one of the Einsatz Reinhard cases a judge acknowledged the superior orders defense, writing starkly of the defendants, "They had been forced to follow orders to participate in the extermination of the Jews, because they would otherwise have been disciplined, punished, sent to a concentration camp, shot, or would have received a similar measure against body and soul, and no other possibility existed and could be seen by them to avoid such dangers except by obeying orders," in this case the judge accepting claims by defendants on trial (and facing serious penalties) over the evidence and evaluation of independent experts
- working at an area remote from where the killings occurred
- lack of personal responsibility for the killings
- Mulka, Höss' adjutant, told his interrogators that he did not know what Zyklon B was; that he had never set foot in the Birkenau or Auschwitz camps; that he never knew about the gassings, that inwardly he was conflicted about the goings-on at Auschwitz, and that he was known to be politically indifferent; Mulka told the Frankfurt court that he never knew that people being taken in trucks to the crematoria were to be gassed, saying "I did not receive any knowledge of this, and to this extent I did not know it" (Mulka's signature was on a 12 August 1943 order, along with his boss', directing SS men to keep 15m from gas chambers for 5 hours after their operation on account of the death of an SS man from the gas fumes)
- the defense of inward distance from the killing program was especially effective in the 1963 Bełzec trial where, given that only one survivor was still alive, the SS-men claimed that their subjective mentality was simply that orders had to be followed no matter their inner feelings (Fulbrook's coverage of the Einsatz Reinhard trials follows Bryant's, where we've seen the same defenses before in this subforum)
- in the 1965 Bełzec trial Oberhauser (second in command at the camp) failed to prevail with a superior orders defense so he argued that his 8 years incarceration in East Germany should be taken into account (the court found that his imprisonment in the DDR was for different charges, related to T-4, but mitigated his sentence anyway)
- Auschwitz medical orderly SS-man Josef Klehr, relative to deadly phenol injections he administered, at Auschwitz, said that he had no choice ("I found myself in a straitjacket") and admitted to killing as charged but on orders
- Herbert Scherpe, who succeeded in getting himself reassigned at Auschwitz from duty killing children with lethal shots, defended himself further with the claim that the children' deaths were gentle and that the victims never knew their fate
- according to Karl-Friedrich Höcker, an adjutant to Baer at Auschwitz whose SS leisure-time photo album is well known, answered a judge's question on whether he believed the killing of the children was to protect the public, answered, "Well, they were Jews"; but, also, Höcker maintained that he himself "saw nothing, knew nothing"
- Dr Franz Lucas told the Auschwitz court that he'd faked sickness to get himself reassigned (he was acquitted)
- some defendants tried to assure the court of their inward goodness by recounting their acts of kindness toward individual prisoners, e.g., one perpetrator claimed he gave cigarettes to the Jews forced to work at Chełmno
- Gerhard Neubert said that before he realized that prisoners unable to continue working at Monowitz were taken off for gassing, he'd thought that their removal from the site was for their care and treatment
- Dr Capesius, charged for his role in ramp selections at Birkenau claimed mistaken identity
- some defendants cast themselves as victims of National Socialism equally with the prisoners as they'd been indoctrinated or compelled to carry out they murderous duties in the camps (the "victims of Hitler" defense)

Not a single testimony mentioned that the Jewish prisoners whom defendants were charged with killing were actually being taken further East or to other camps or had been administered hygienic treatments at sanitary way-stations or any of the other latter-day inventions of deniers. Strange since if the Jews had not after all been exterminated in these camps, one would think, that would improve the defendants' chance in court considerably. None of the defenses showed that the crime of mass murder didn't occur; most of them were individual defenses, and whether or not they helped those on trial, they constituted, in fact, not evidence to support denial but evidence of the mass murder of Jews.
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