Andy Ritchie - Docs / Info he's not addressing

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Andy Ritchie - Docs / Info he's not addressing

Postby BRoI » Sat Mar 25, 2017 9:05 am

New article by a new revisionist:
http://www.inconvenienthistory.com/9/2/4269

Sticking strictly on topic and addressing the argument and not the man, can you show WITH SOURCES what he's not accounting for or just wrong about?
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Re: Andy Ritchie - Docs / Info he's not addressing

Postby Hans » Sat Mar 25, 2017 4:07 pm

The alleged use of gas chambers in this euthanasia program has been seen by revisionists as an attempt to bolster Holocaust myths.[44] British propagandists’ invention of a “lethal chamber” aspect to euthanasia could in this context be seen as the basis for later accretions of myth.
...
In fact PWE/SOE certainly did invent stories about homicidal gassings – the inventions were circulated long before any such gassings are now alleged to have taken place.

http://www.inconvenienthistory.com/9/2/4269

The Euthanasia gassings took place already before the British mention in December 1940 (both in the Altreich and annexed Poland). Therefore, it is the exact other way around, German homicidal gassings could be seen as the basis for the later British reports.

Andy Ritchie has missed to take into account virtually any source on the Nazi Euthanasia gassings like numerous testimonies from West-German investigations (e.g. Klee, Dokumente zur Euthanasie and Euthanasie im NS-Staat) and their corroboration by contemporary German documents. The testimony of the person providing the CO gas bottles to the Euthanasia sites is readily available online here.

New Revisionist, but old Revisionist style.

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Re: Andy Ritchie - Docs / Info he's not addressing

Postby BRoI » Sat Mar 25, 2017 4:37 pm

Therefore, it is the exact other way around, German homicidal gassings could be seen as the basis for the later British reports.


You forgot to post evidence that the Brits were aware of the disabled gassings in December 1940 to have inspired that particular piece of black propaganda.

I heard about these Sibs files from Lee Richard's book Whispers of War a few years ago, and I've actually got quite a few of them. I think Richie's article is well researched and cleverly written, but what he shows, by default, is that he wasn't able to find a single sib, or even proposed sib, about Jews being massacred, never mind being killed in gas chambers.
Last edited by BRoI on Sat Mar 25, 2017 4:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Andy Ritchie - Docs / Info he's not addressing

Postby BRoI » Sat Mar 25, 2017 4:51 pm

Does anyone know what "the new SHAEF directive" on gas chambers was in March 1945, the one which got Stefan Delmer this telling-off for forgetting when he proposed they spread a lie about the gas chambers in Magdeburg working overtime?

Image


J/744 sounds kinda familiar:
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=540887#p540887
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Re: Andy Ritchie - Docs / Info he's not addressing

Postby Jeff_36 » Sat Mar 25, 2017 6:14 pm

Joachim Piper testified in a post war interrogation about witnessing a gassing of mental patients in Poland at some point in 1940 or 1941. I can provide the details as soon as I get home from work.

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Re: Andy Ritchie - Docs / Info he's not addressing

Postby Balsamo » Sat Mar 25, 2017 7:11 pm

BRoI wrote:New article by a new revisionist:
http://www.inconvenienthistory.com/9/2/4269

Sticking strictly on topic and addressing the argument and not the man, can you show WITH SOURCES what he's not accounting for or just wrong about?


Not sure i understand your question, Rabbit.
From the first reading, the article about political warfare and propaganda is not bad. As usual, the problem is how the author want to use his work that poses problem.
Comparing Lord Bentinck to a revisionist is a bad start, and him expressing doubts about Poles being sent to the gas chambers, along with German shooting children or selling them to settlers, as a kind of first victory for Revisionism, is even worse.

It is not like the historiography of the holocaust is based on the kind of "news" Cavendish is criticizing, isn't it?
For that reason only, the author's conclusion makes no real sense.

We have seen in another thread that those "news" especially coming from the Polish underground, and in some extend, it is also valid from news coming from Jewish sources during the war, that those reports were far from stainless.
For this reason, expressing doubts about their veracity in 1943 cannot be compared with denying 70 years of historical research.
I have quoted the diary of the father of french historian Vidal Naquet that showed that he didn't equaled deportation to extermination in gas chambers neither, even though the "rumor" was already out there. That does not make him a revisionist neither.

Had the author stayed on his topic - refrained from making silly conclusion - then actually, this article is maybe the most readable ever published by "Inconvenient History". I managed to read it through. I even learned some things.

Actually, this article shows that the topics proposed by a political propaganda never made their ways into Historiography from the gassing of wounded German soldiers to the poisoning of country such as France, while the genocide of the Jews did.

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Re: Andy Ritchie - Docs / Info he's not addressing

Postby Balsamo » Sat Mar 25, 2017 7:34 pm

BroI wrote:

You forgot to post evidence that the Brits were aware of the disabled gassings in December 1940 to have inspired that particular piece of black propaganda.


As you are located in England, it should not be an impossible task to find one.
The rumor spread across the German population during the year 1940, there is no way Great Britain would not have been aware of it.

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Re: Andy Ritchie - Docs / Info he's not addressing

Postby Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Sat Mar 25, 2017 7:56 pm

So, what's the point for this denier's article?
I read Tony Kushner's 'Different worlds: British perceptions of the Final Solution during the Second World War' in David Cesarani (Editor), 'The Final Solution Origins and Implementation', 1996, and I have a completely different picture for what was going on in UK's public opinion during WWII, but one with a historical perspective.
It seems the government didn't want to deal with the subject, or worst to do something about it.
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According to experts and scholars, the 10 stages of every genocide are
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Re: Andy Ritchie - Docs / Info he's not addressing

Postby BRoI » Sat Mar 25, 2017 7:57 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:Joachim Piper testified in a post war interrogation about witnessing a gassing of mental patients in Poland at some point in 1940 or 1941. I can provide the details as soon as I get home from work.

Don't bother, Jeff. That's hardly relevant to proving how this gas-train-tunnel story originated, and why the British decided to use it as black propaganda.

But I did find the answer though:

On 15.09.41 the British Legation Berne forwarded the FO two reports:

1. From the British Consulate, Geneva
A report about a gas chamber at Linz where the sick and elderly were gassed. An Austrian civil servant had reported that he travelled on a train from Bregenz to Innsbruck with a party of half doped elderly people; the conductor told him where they were bound for. The report also mentions the Bishop of Munich had denounced the euthansia killing in a sermon that was subsequently printed and secretly distributed.

2. From the British Consulate, Basle
A reliable Swiss man was told the following by a German train guard: Guards on trains returning with wounded soldiers from the Eastern front are ordered to put on their gas mask just before they enter an tunnel etc., etc.
- FO 371/26513, C11335. I don't have it, but the first report is also in FO 371/24392, C10965.

Despite the train guard supposedly claiming to have personally been on one of the gas trains and being sworn to secrecy on pain of death, it does seem that 2nd story has it's origins in the 1st—after being retold from guard to guard a several times and indulged by the last one, at least.

Someone in the Foreign Office—VCB—decided to spread the 2nd story in Europe as black propaganda.
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Re: Andy Ritchie - Docs / Info he's not addressing

Postby BRoI » Sat Mar 25, 2017 8:12 pm

Balsamo wrote:The rumor spread across the German population during the year 1940, there is no way Great Britain would not have been aware of it.

When the Vatican issued its condemnation of the killing of the physically and mentally disabled:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9800E7D91E3EE33ABC4E53DFB467838B659EDE&nytmobile=0&legacy=true

Someone in Special Operations Executive really thought they'd trolled the Holy See with a black propaganda rumour they had spread three weeks earlier!

Image
- FO 898/71
[edit: link corrected]
Last edited by BRoI on Tue Apr 04, 2017 7:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Andy Ritchie - Docs / Info he's not addressing

Postby BRoI » Sat Mar 25, 2017 8:34 pm

Kleon_I XYZ Contagion wrote:So, what's the point for this denier's article?

In 1943, VCB was sceptical of the gas chambers story, because, during the previous 2.5 years of the war he spread a few bogus gassing stories into Europe through resistance radio broadcasts and underground publications.

Image
https://www.psywar.org/content/undergroundPropaganda

No more totally irrelevant walls of text, please. Actually, can you delete your C&P, which you didn't even bother formatting?
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Re: Andy Ritchie - Docs / Info he's not addressing

Postby Jeff_36 » Sat Mar 25, 2017 8:59 pm

If TDR is attempting top disregard the distance of gas chambers in the AR camps and Auschwitz through use of this litter tangent, I would like to point out that the chain of information in Polish and Jewish underground reports throught 1942 proceeded completely independently of British agencies. These included the Vendel Report, which was circulated by the Swedish Consulate in Danzig IIRC, and the Onyeg Shaves reports from the Warsaw ghetto, some of which were put out by Polae Tzion Left - a pro-Soviet group.

The differing origins of these very different reports disprove your thesis (which, if I'm not mistaken, is that the existence of Nazi gas chambers - both under the auspices of T4 and AR - were made up by the "EWIW BWITSISH SPIIEZ"). The only way out of your predicament is to allege collusion between these very disparate elements - a ridiculous notion.

I must say that I am very disappointed in you repulse into denial.

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Re: Andy Ritchie - Docs / Info he's not addressing

Postby Hans » Sat Mar 25, 2017 9:15 pm

BRoI wrote:
Therefore, it is the exact other way around, German homicidal gassings could be seen as the basis for the later British reports.


You forgot to post evidence that the Brits were aware of the disabled gassings in December 1940 to have inspired that particular piece of black propaganda.

The statement quoted by Ritchie "that the Superintendent of the Bethel Institute for Incurables had been sent to Dachau for refusing to permit the inmates to be put in lethal chambers" shows that the British had received insider knowledge on the Euthanasia and hence that it is entirely possible if not likely that there were aware of already existing gassing rumors.

The distorted episode refers to the resistence of Friedrich von Bodelschwingh, head of the Bethel facility, and perhaps also of Paul Braune, who was the head of the Lobetal facility and closely affialiated with von Bodelschwingh and had authored the appeal to the Minister of Justice to stop the Euthanasia. Bethel had indeed refused to fill out the Euthanasia patient reports (Klee, Euthanasie im SS-Staat, p. 216). In May 1940, Braune had refused to hand over patients and was later arrested by the Gestapo in Berlin (Klee, Euthanasie im SS-Staat, p. 205). In September 1940, the US journalist William Lawrence Shirer was told that von Bodelschwingh refused to deliver patients to the Gestapo and was ordered arrested. According to Thorsten Noack, this was passed on to Shirer by the Swiss based NBC correspondent Max Jordan, who was incidently "working to establish contacts between the British government and German opposition groups".

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Re: Andy Ritchie - Docs / Info he's not addressing

Postby Balsamo » Sat Mar 25, 2017 10:31 pm

BRoI wrote:
Balsamo wrote:The rumor spread across the German population during the year 1940, there is no way Great Britain would not have been aware of it.

When the Vatican issued its condemnation of the killing of the physically and mentally disabled:
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19800505_euthanasia_en.html

Someone in Special Operations Executive really thought they'd trolled the Holy See with a black propaganda rumour they had spread three weeks earlier!

Image
- FO 898/71



In addition to what Hans just said, the Vatican might have been also influenced by the protest from the reformed Bishop Theophil Wurm who also wrote a letter to minister Frick...in march 1940...or from private letters from German catholic fellows...
As Hans pointed out, the Lobetal opposed the policy in May 1940 clearly shows that the policy had leaked...For the Vatican could issue the decree in december 1940, it must have been aware quite some time before deciding to issue the decree, don't you think?

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Re: Andy Ritchie - Docs / Info he's not addressing

Postby BRoI » Sun Mar 26, 2017 11:43 am

Balsamo wrote:In addition to what Hans just said, the Vatican might have been also influenced by the protest from the reformed Bishop Theophil Wurm who also wrote a letter to minister Frick...in march 1940...or from private letters from German catholic fellows...
As Hans pointed out, the Lobetal opposed the policy in May 1940 clearly shows that the policy had leaked...For the Vatican could issue the decree in december 1940, it must have been aware quite some time before deciding to issue the decree, don't you think?


Yes, I agree. My original question to Hans was poorly phrased, what I neglected to emphasise was the point about the *train*, what did the gassing train story have its origins in?

And then I subsequently found out: Reports of drugged up "elderly" people on trains to Linz, headed for a gas chamber.
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=567485#p567485

[edited for typos x 2]
Last edited by BRoI on Sun Mar 26, 2017 1:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Andy Ritchie - Docs / Info he's not addressing

Postby BRoI » Sun Mar 26, 2017 11:46 am

Balsamo wrote:[Comparing Lord Bentinck to a revisionist is a bad start, and him expressing doubts about Poles being sent to the gas chambers, along with German shooting children or selling them to settlers, as a kind of first victory for Revisionism, is even worse.

Allen and VCB were expressing scepticism about all gassing chamber stories; the recent reports that claimed Poles were being gassed at Majdanek, and the reports about Jews. He says in the same file note: "to a far greater extent the Jews, tend to exaggerate German atrocities in order to stoke us up."

Look VCB's penultimate paragraph in the file note that you're referring to; how can he "only" be rubbishing the Polish gassings [at Majdanek] whilst not referring to the gassings of Jews?

These mass executions in gas chambers remind me of the story of employment of human corpses during the last war for the manufacture of fat, which was a grotesque lie and led to the true stories of German enormities being brushed aside as being mere propaganda.


And the joint Allied statement of August 1943, which he went to so much trouble to ensure the sentence about "gas chambers" was removed from. GCs were used to kill most of the people he refers to here, so why did he go to all the trouble of removing "gas chambers" if he really believed they were the tool used to kill most of these people?

Trustworthy information has reached His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom regarding crimes committed by the German invaders against the population of Poland. Since the autumn of 1942 a belt of territory extending from the province of Bialystok southwards along the line of the River Bug has been systematically emptied of its inhabitants. In July 1943 these measures were extended to practically the whole of the province of Lublin, where hundreds of thousands of persons have been deported from their homes or exterminated.

These measures are being carried out with the utmost brutality. Many of the victims are killed on the spot. The rest are segregated. Men from fourteen to fifty are taken away to work for Germany. Some children are killed on the spot, others are separated from their parents and either sent to Germany to be brought up as Germans or sold to German settlers or despatched with the women and old men to concentration camps, where they are now being systematically put to death in gas chambers.
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Re: Andy Ritchie - Docs / Info he's not addressing

Postby BRoI » Sun Mar 26, 2017 1:46 pm

Richie wrote:In a footnote to his Encounter article (p 15), Laqueur writes that in an October 1979 letter to him, Cavendish-Bentinck “wrote that his pre-War experience of Germany had been limited, and that he therefore disbelieved the atrocity stories in 1942-43. He added that when he visited Auschwitz in late 1945 and reported to the Foreign Office that millions of people had been killed there, it was still not believed in the Foreign Office.” This is Laqueur’s paraphrase: neither in his 1980 article nor his 1981 book does he quote the precise words of Cavendish-Bentinck’s letter, nor does he give any reference for Cavendish-Bentinck’s claimed 1945 report to the FO from Auschwitz. In 1979-80 all SOE and PWE papers would of course have been closed to researchers, and Cavendish-Bentinck would still have felt bound by the Official Secrets Act, so it would not be surprising for him to have given Laqueur a false rationalization for his earlier skepticism.


Following is the full text of the "report" VCB, the then-British Ambassador to Poland, wrote in 1945. I don't believe this has ever been quoted before now; as far as I can tell, the only person who's ever cited the file this letter is found in is Michael Fleming in Communism, Nationalism and Ethnicity in Poland, 1944-50 [2010]; he just doesn't mention this letter.

As you can see, by 1945 Cavendish-Bentinck was fully convinced about gas chambers: "there is no doubt that all the horror stories" about Auschwitz "are correct", including that human-soap, or margarine, was made there!

He was also convinced about Treblinka, Majdanek, that over 3 million Polish Jews had been liquidated, and some 6 million people had been deliberately murdered, 4 million or more of which were Jews.

BRITISH EMBASSY
WARSAW

17th September, 1945

I know that you take a passionate interest in the Palestine problem, and therefore venture to put the following thoughts before you.

Jews in Central Europe seemed to me in the past to be like a huge lake which was seeking to overflow through a small stream formed by the Passport Control Officers and the Colonial Office into another area, i.e. Palestine. This lake is now, at least so far as Poland is concerned, well-night empty. There is no doubt that the Jews in this country have been virtually exterminated. They are never to be seen in Warsaw except a few who have come back and entered the higher ranks of Government administration. In what small towns into which we have been and which used to be filled with Jewish tradesmen, there are now nonw [sic] to be seen.

In Cracow, where there was a Jewish population of over 40,000, there are now some 6,000 or 7,000, which is a large percentage compared with other places, since in Cracow there is a certain amount of business and traffic of all sorts. I think it is safe to assume that over 3,000,000 Jews have been liquidated in Poland alone. The Polish Government maintained, about a month ago, that there were about 50,000 Jews in Poland, and that 200,000 more were likely to return from Russia. I believe that the latter figure is exaggerated and that not more than 150,000 are likely to return making a maximum total of Jews in Poland of 200,000.

I have just visited the former concentration camp at Oswięcim [sic]. There is no doubt that all of the horror stories that have been heard about this place are correct, including the extraction of fat for the purpose of manufacturing soap (or perhaps margarine?) from corpses that were burnt in electric furnaces with German efficiency. The Jews and a few others were stripped and then gassed, again with speed and efficiency. From nosing ground the various heaps of remains of all kinds in the vicinity of the the ovens, I reached the conclusion, which visitors to Majdanek also reached, Oswięcim, Tręblinka [sic] (a place which was just used as a slaughter-house and nothing more) and other German concentration camps or places of execution, some 6,000,000 people must have been killed, of 4,000,000 or more were Jews.

You may care to mark this letter for Northern Department.

(Sd) V. CAVENDISH-BENTINCK

C.W.Baxter, Esq, C.M.G.,
Foreign Office, S.W.1.
- UK NA: FO 688/31/3
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Re: Andy Ritchie - Docs / Info he's not addressing

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Mar 26, 2017 9:20 pm

I'm adding this comment so I can follow along. Carry on.

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Re: Andy Ritchie - Docs / Info he's not addressing

Postby Jeff_36 » Mon Mar 27, 2017 4:16 am

Forgive me but I am unaware as to what the daft rabbit is arguing here. Is he stating that the AR gassings were British propaganda? I would like to point out that the chain of information in Polish and Jewish underground reports throught 1942 proceeded completely independently of British agencies. These included the Vendel Report, which was circulated by the Swedish Consulate in Danzig IIRC, and the Onyeg Shaves reports from the Warsaw ghetto, some of which were put out by Polae Tzion Left - a pro-Soviet group.

The differing origins of these very different reports disprove your thesis (which, if I'm not mistaken, is that the existence of Nazi gas chambers - both under the auspices of T4 and AR - were made up by the "EWIW BWITSISH SPIIEZ"). The only way out of your predicament is to allege collusion between these very disparate elements - a ridiculous notion.

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Re: Andy Ritchie - Docs / Info he's not addressing

Postby Balsamo » Mon Mar 27, 2017 10:32 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:Forgive me but I am unaware as to what the daft rabbit is arguing here. Is he stating that the AR gassings were British propaganda? I would like to point out that the chain of information in Polish and Jewish underground reports throught 1942 proceeded completely independently of British agencies. These included the Vendel Report, which was circulated by the Swedish Consulate in Danzig IIRC, and the Onyeg Shaves reports from the Warsaw ghetto, some of which were put out by Polae Tzion Left - a pro-Soviet group.

The differing origins of these very different reports disprove your thesis (which, if I'm not mistaken, is that the existence of Nazi gas chambers - both under the auspices of T4 and AR - were made up by the "EWIW BWITSISH SPIIEZ"). The only way out of your predicament is to allege collusion between these very disparate elements - a ridiculous notion.


I agree, and i think the Rabbit would agree too, that the OP was not quite clear.
I think the idea is that the article made it the other way round, that the gas chambers first rumors came from the British intelligence before any report that would have inspired it. I maybe wrong. But this is how i understood his question about what might have inspired the rumors on the gassing trains as issued by the British intelligence.
Had that been the case, it would have given the late Duke of Portland more credit for his skepticism.

I have never understood this topic as a attempt by the rabbit to renew with his formal denial, but maybe as an attempt that there can be "good" article published on the other side - to which i gave my opinion -
But given the little time, it is possible that i have misunderstood the whole thing from the start.
Questions to which he got answers, in my perspective.

EDIT: forgot my first sentence... lol

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Re: Andy Ritchie - Docs / Info he's not addressing

Postby Jeff_36 » Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:25 pm

I am also unsure as to whether or not he is denying the T4 gassing - they are rigorously documented and proven.

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Re: Andy Ritchie - Docs / Info he's not addressing

Postby Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Tue Mar 28, 2017 8:51 am

Jeff_36 wrote:I am also unsure as to whether or not he is denying the T4 gassing - they are rigorously documented and proven.


I have the same question from the start. I posted some excerpts (which I later removed because Rabbit asked me) from Tony Kushner's 'Different worlds: British perceptions of the Final Solution during the Second World War' in David Cesarani (Editor), 'The Final Solution Origins and Implementation', 1996, He was talking about all the cases of German atrocities British propaganda even before the war, all the way back to WWI, and how government officials and public opinion were dealing with it up until 1945. Kushner discuss the perception of the Polish underground and Jewish organizations reports, and, most important, the steps the government took or didn't take to deal with the genocide. I mean, facts and real events, not rumors about rumors.
I have a difficult time already because, you know, English is not my first language, so I've read everything here twice or more, and I still don't get it.
Are we trying to find out where this particular train gas story originated from?
Or why Cavendish-Bentinck changed his mind and was finally convinced about the gas chambers?
Or it's just an attempt to give credit to a denier's article which is somehow a little more serious piece comparing it to the usual junk denial literature?
Anyway, I don't see any dots to try to connect them, and I don't want to put pressure to any of you to explain it to me, no need to do it, I'll watch to try to figure it out by myself.
According to experts and scholars, the 10 stages of every genocide are
Classification Symbolization Discrimination Dehumanization Organization Polarization Preparation Persecution Extermination
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Denial
http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocide/t ... ocide.html

XYZ Contagion (‘Because the truth is contagious‘), an investigative/research political and historical website, deals also with the Srebrenica Genocide
https://xyzcontagion.wordpress.com/about/#English

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Re: Andy Ritchie - Docs / Info he's not addressing

Postby BRoI » Tue Mar 28, 2017 9:42 pm

This thread is about Ritchie's article and the matters it directly discusses.

If you can prove Ritchie wrong about something, please post away.

If you think Ritchie had a point about something, please detail why.

If you have new information, or an interesting observation about the issues DIRECTLY discussed in his article, please post away.

No other types of posts, thank you.
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Re: Andy Ritchie - Docs / Info he's not addressing

Postby Jeff_36 » Tue Mar 28, 2017 11:31 pm

BRoI wrote:This thread is about Ritchie's article and the matters it directly discusses.

If you can prove Ritchie wrong about something, please post away.

If you think Ritchie had a point about something, please detail why.

If you have new information, or an interesting observation about the issues DIRECTLY discussed in his article, please post away.

No other types of posts, thank you.


I have three questions

1. Do you deny T4 gassings? Ritchie does.

2. Do you maintain that all reports of gassings were British in origin (despite the clear evidence to the contrary that I articulated brilliantly above)?

3. Are you a denier once again?

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Re: Andy Ritchie - Docs / Info he's not addressing

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Apr 01, 2017 11:23 pm

I finally got a chance to read Andy Ritchie's article.

While it was interesting in the insights it gave for certain black operations put in play by the British, Ritchie neglected to bring up the fact there are documents relating to the killing of Poles, specifically mentally or physically ill Poles.

We have these documents relating to this brought up at Nuremberg:

http://nuremberg.law.harvard.edu/documents/2351-letter-ss-gruppenfuehrer-wolff?q=evidence:%22NO-2909%22#p.1


http://nuremberg.law.harvard.edu/documents/130-letter-to-rudolf-brandt?q=evidence:no*#p.1

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Re: Andy Ritchie - Docs / Info he's not addressing

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Apr 02, 2017 7:39 am


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Re: Andy Ritchie - Docs / Info he's not addressing

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Apr 02, 2017 5:29 pm

I know deniers don't like witness statements but statements do exist regarding the initial gassings of Polish patients at Fort VII. The gassings took place in improvised gas chambers that used cylinders of Carbon Monoxide. The witness's name is Henryk Mania.

From Chelmno and the Holocaust by Patrick Montague, pgs. 21-22
The same day that we were moved to the “SK” cell, we were called out by an SS man, but not the one who normally guarded the corridor. Two trucks, loaded with people, were parked in the courtyard of Fort VII and surrounded by SS men. These people were mentally ill, you could tell by looking at them. We were ordered to take these people from the trucks to a separate bunker. The SS men supervised us, yelling and pushing. We also carried steel cylinders, like those used for oxygen, from the truck and put them near the bunker. After leading the people into the bunker and closing the iron door, the SS men ordered us to seal the door with clay, after which they took us back to our cell. After a short period of time, we were again taken to the courtyard. We were ordered to remove the clay, open the door and remove the corpses of the gassed mental patients. I found out later that the prisoners in whose cell we were placed had done this previously; they themselves told me. I carried the corpses from the bunker to the truck. After loading the truck with the corpses of the patients, we were returned to our cell. The gassing of the mental patients described above was repeated several more times [...] However, I do know that they were patients brought to Fort VII from the psychiatric hospital in Owi ń ska near Pozna ń . 19


Footnote:
Henryk Mania 1967: 271.

A second witness, Henryk Maliczak, described this on page 20:

We were initially employed in transporting and burying the corpses of the mentally ill. The first victims came from the psychiatric hospital in [Owi ń ska]. They were transported by truck to Fort VII and gassed in a bunker the door and window of which had been hermetically sealed. I saw how members of the camp staff and others, dressed in SS uniforms, observed the gassing through a window in the [door of the] bunker. A special group of approximately ten SS men, not Fort VII personnel, transported the mentally ill from the hospital in [Owi ń ska] and gassed them. This group was commanded by an SS man named Lange [...]. The gassing occurred in this way two or three times over a period of several days. [. . . ] The victims were calm; I suppose they had been tranquillized with injections. Our role in this activity consisted in carrying the corpses of the victims to trucks which transported them to forests near the town of Oborniki. Here we threw the corpses into previously dug pits. [...] We learned from members of Lange’s kommando that the victims came from [Owi ń ska] and were mentally ill. They tried to put us at ease, saying that such people had to be eliminated. 22


Footnote S. 8/01/Zn: 261, Henryk Maliczak. Hereafter cited as Henryk Maliczak 1967 . Maliczak was confused in this testimony regarding the hospital from which the patients originated. He mentions the Ko ś cian facility, which was actually the second hospital visited by Lange. Henryk Mania specifically points out Maliczak’s error in his own testimony.

Montague mentions that the mass graves were found in the
Ró ż nowo Forest. I can't find any additional information on this, there are a few entries I've found on-line for various graves associated with the site.

Ironically, Mania was investigated several times for his participation as an SK. This is something I forgot about. He was eventually convicted:
https://trialinternational.org/latest-post/henryk-mania/

Ironically no denier I know whines about Mania, probably because he's not German. Or Ivan the Terrible. Mania also worked as an SK at Chelmno.

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Re: Andy Ritchie - Docs / Info he's not addressing

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Apr 02, 2017 5:33 pm

This whole thing peaked my interest this particular subject. I'll be adding more as time permits.

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Re: Andy Ritchie - Docs / Info he's not addressing

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Apr 02, 2017 5:50 pm

BRoI wrote:New article by a new revisionist:
http://www.inconvenienthistory.com/9/2/4269

Sticking strictly on topic and addressing the argument and not the man, can you show WITH SOURCES what he's not accounting for or just wrong about?


From what I can tell, Rabbit, the author failed to consider other sources other than those that proved his point. This is a common failing I've noticed among deniers. Those sources he ignored are easily accessible, maybe not Montague's book but the Nuremberg stuff is available on-line.

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Re: Andy Ritchie - Docs / Info he's not addressing

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Apr 03, 2017 3:59 pm

We also have Mania's testimony regarding the use of proto gas vehicles used to murder Polish inmates, given in the 1960's (Montague summarizes this, pg. 23)

Henryk Mania recalled the operation in Ko ś cian where he and twelve other prisoners, along with shovels, pickaxes and cylinders of gas, were taken to a forest to dig the graves for the patients. The Polish prisoners also carried the steel cylinders to the gas van, which were connected to a valve, and then operated by a member of the Sonderkommando. After the victims suffocated to death, the Poles emptied the van and buried the patients in the pits. 33


Footnote:
Henryk Mania 1967: 273–74.

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Re: Andy Ritchie - Docs / Info he's not addressing

Postby BRoI » Mon Apr 03, 2017 4:55 pm

Jeffk, posting docs/testimony that were found/given after the war isn't really the best way to debunk Ritchie's main argument.

He's essentially claiming that the false rumour put out the 03.12.40:

On 3rd December 1940 a sib was launched via SOE[21]
“that the Superintendent of the Bethel Institute for Incurables had been sent to Dachau for refusing to permit the inmates to be put in lethal chambers. Within two weeks it was reported that this rumour was circulating in Switzerland and, on the 19th December, that the Vatican had issued a decree condemning the killing of physical or mental deficients. The rumour has appeared in intercepted letters, and last Sunday the Sunday Express carried the story that 100,000 mental deficients had been executed.”

[21] SO2 Executive Committee, Progress Report for Week Ending 23.1.41, HS 8/216.


is was what triggered the "rumour" that disabled were/had been gassed—even though Ritchie admits Nazi Germany had been euthanising its disabled since late-1939.

That's the crux of his claim.

If we can find a few sources, dated no later than end-of-Nov 1940, about *rumours* disabled people had been gassed, whether in Germany or Poland, Ritchie's *argument* collapses.
"... these witnesses would swear to anything if it gets the Germans killed."
- Solomon Surowitz, Assistant Prosecutor at the 1947 Buchenwald trial.

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Re: Andy Ritchie - Docs / Info he's not addressing

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:09 pm

BRoI wrote:Jeffk, posting docs/testimony that were found/given after the war isn't really the best way to debunk Ritchie's main argument.

He's essentially claiming that the false rumour put out the 03.12.40:

On 3rd December 1940 a sib was launched via SOE[21]
“that the Superintendent of the Bethel Institute for Incurables had been sent to Dachau for refusing to permit the inmates to be put in lethal chambers. Within two weeks it was reported that this rumour was circulating in Switzerland and, on the 19th December, that the Vatican had issued a decree condemning the killing of physical or mental deficients. The rumour has appeared in intercepted letters, and last Sunday the Sunday Express carried the story that 100,000 mental deficients had been executed.”

[21] SO2 Executive Committee, Progress Report for Week Ending 23.1.41, HS 8/216.


is was what triggered the "rumour" that disabled were/had been gassed—even though Ritchie admits Nazi Germany had been euthanising its disabled since late-1939.

That's the crux of his claim.

If we can find a few sources, dated no later than late-Nov 1940 about *rumours* that disabled people were being gassed by the nazis, Ritchie's *argument* collapses.


I disagree. My issue with him is that he never bothered to address any of the documents or testimony regarding euthanizing disabled Poles.

What Ritchie is doing is taking information about certain British Black Ops and saying, "look, this is the source of gassing rumors, the Germans weren't gassing anyone even though we know euthanasia occurred."

What I'm saying is that German documents and witness statements already confirm this. Ritchie failed to address any of these during his article. He needed to address them and, if possible, refute them.

Someone not informed about any of the information turned up by Hans and others in this thread would take Ritchie at face value.

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Re: Andy Ritchie - Docs / Info he's not addressing

Postby BRoI » Mon Apr 03, 2017 6:44 pm

Here's a excerpt from William Shirer's article about Nazi Germany in Life magazine, 10 February 1941, in which he discusses the euthanasia programme. He effectively says they didn't know how the killings were performed. He of course lived and worked in Germany from 1934 until early-December 1940 and it was his business to have his nose to the ground:

Image
Life, 10 Feb 1941, p.62.

I think efforts would are best spent finding an instantly-understood-by-all knock-out punch to Ritchie's theory, meaning a document/newspaper/magazine article that says they're rumoured to being killing them with gas, which is dated earlier than his 03.12.40 Sib.

I can't see the point in your method. You're just inviting another endless discussion about testimony given years after the fact by someone facing the gallows/prison, the authenticity of documents [none of you have actually seen], etc., etc.

Shirer's article was published six weeks after the Vatican issued their condemnation of the programme. Presumably the RCC was in possession of very strong evidence about the programme by December 1940; of course many patients of Catholic-run institutions had been killed but that time.
[edit: hyperlink corrected]
Last edited by BRoI on Tue Apr 04, 2017 7:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"... these witnesses would swear to anything if it gets the Germans killed."
- Solomon Surowitz, Assistant Prosecutor at the 1947 Buchenwald trial.

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Re: Andy Ritchie - Docs / Info he's not addressing

Postby BRoI » Mon Apr 03, 2017 6:59 pm

On 3rd December 1940 a sib was launched via SOE[21]
“that the Superintendent of the Bethel Institute for Incurables had been sent to Dachau for refusing to permit the inmates to be put in lethal chambers. Within two weeks it was reported that this rumour was circulating in Switzerland and, on the 19th December, that the Vatican had issued a decree condemning the killing of physical or mental deficients. The rumour has appeared in intercepted letters, and last Sunday the Sunday Express carried the story that 100,000 mental deficients had been executed.”

[21] SO2 Executive Committee, Progress Report for Week Ending 23.1.41, HS 8/216.


I suspect this wasn't invented by the UPC, but was a report that the PWE received from Europe. They didn't think it was genuine so decided to use it as black propaganda.

Precisely how they did with the gas-tunnel-trains Richtie mentioned. Which he seems to think was an invention by M15's man in Berne:

While most sibs originated from PWE, the success of this gas-chamber rumor led to a War Office suggestion passed to Cavendish-Bentinck’s JIC in November 1941. They had heard it from their military attaché in Berne, Col. H.A. Cartwright (who was in fact an MI6 officer) as “a story which, with some variations, has been circulating freely in Berne, and has come in from various quite independent informants always from apparently reliable sources.”[28]

In this version of the rumor:

“Guards and superintendents of trains containing wounded German soldiers from the Eastern Front are ordered at certain places to put on their gas masks. The trains then enter a tunnel where they remain for upwards of half an hour. On leaving the tunnel all the wounded soldiers are dead. Severely wounded soldiers are disposed of in the same manner in so-called emergency hospitals, of which there are many.”

Cartwright had added:[29]

“The Guard who furnished this information is stated to have been on duty on one of the trains in which wounded soldiers were ‘gassed’. He was sworn to secrecy under penalty of death, but stated he could no longer withhold his secret from the outer world by reason of his conscience, and wanted the German public to learn the fate of their wounded soldiers.”

The Inter-Services Security Board (through which PWE and others cleared their rumors in case they inadvertently clashed with other British secret operations) had raised no objection, and added: “We recommend this rumour also as useful propaganda.”


Ritchie was mistaken because it was one of two very similar rumours the Brits received at that time from Switzerland. Which are found in a file he obviously didn't known about, despite the fact that the reports have long been cited in the literature [do a Google Books search for the file references to see some examples].
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=567485#p567485
"... these witnesses would swear to anything if it gets the Germans killed."
- Solomon Surowitz, Assistant Prosecutor at the 1947 Buchenwald trial.

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Re: Andy Ritchie - Docs / Info he's not addressing

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Apr 03, 2017 7:08 pm

BRoI wrote:I think efforts would are best spent finding an instantly-understood-by-all knock-out punch to Ritchie's theory, meaning a document/newspaper/magazine article that says they're rumoured to being killing them with gas, which is dated earlier than his 03.12.40 Sib.


I don't disagree, however, this may not exist. I will keep looking to see if I can find something. I have Friedlander's Origins of Nazi Genocide and Browning's Origins of the Final Solution, I will see if either has anything.

I can't see the point in your method. You're just inviting another endless discussion about testimony given years after the fact by someone facing the gallows/prison, the authenticity of documents [none of you have actually seen], etc., etc.


Mania was a non-Jewish Pole facing prison time for his activities. Why on earth would he incriminate himself? Why not retract his statements once prison became a possibility?
As for the documents, as I don't read, speak or write Polish I don't think that makes a difference, do you? For all I know I could be looking at someone's aborted attempt at a novel or their grocery list. I included the German documents on this but I avoided the testimony at the Doctor's Trial b cause I know deniers don't like testimony. I felt it was valid in the case of Fort VII because there are no actual documents regarding the activities at the Fort or at Chelmno later.

As for the rest, I'll give you a "like" because it was valuable information.

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Re: Andy Ritchie - Docs / Info he's not addressing

Postby Hans » Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:50 pm

BRoI wrote:Jeffk, posting docs/testimony that were found/given after the war isn't really the best way to debunk Ritchie's main argument.

He's essentially claiming that the false rumour put out the 03.12.40:

On 3rd December 1940 a sib was launched via SOE[21]
“that the Superintendent of the Bethel Institute for Incurables had been sent to Dachau for refusing to permit the inmates to be put in lethal chambers. Within two weeks it was reported that this rumour was circulating in Switzerland and, on the 19th December, that the Vatican had issued a decree condemning the killing of physical or mental deficients. The rumour has appeared in intercepted letters, and last Sunday the Sunday Express carried the story that 100,000 mental deficients had been executed.”

[21] SO2 Executive Committee, Progress Report for Week Ending 23.1.41, HS 8/216.


is was what triggered the "rumour" that disabled were/had been gassed—even though Ritchie admits Nazi Germany had been euthanising its disabled since late-1939.

That's the crux of his claim.

If we can find a few sources, dated no later than end-of-Nov 1940, about *rumours* disabled people had been gassed, whether in Germany or Poland, Ritchie's *argument* collapses.


You seem to have missed that this was already done here. Also note that Ritchie does not simply argue that "PWE/SOE certainly did invent stories about homicidal gassings" before they were known as rumors but that "the inventions were circulated long before any such gassings are now alleged to have taken place", which is patently false in either case. He considers the "very first alleged gassings of prisoners at Auschwitz" as gassing reference point, how bad is that?

Let's face it, Ritchie is a poor researcher because he knows virtually nothing on the subject he is trying to connect the docs with which he found in that records.

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Re: Andy Ritchie - Docs / Info he's not addressing

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:22 pm

Summer 1940 was when the rumors about T4 broke out and had to be contained . . .

A quick look at just Ulf Schmidt’s Brandt bio: Schmidt (p 146) says that rumors about T4 were what prompted Lammers first to blame the Justice Ministry, then meet with Gürtner and exchange notes in which Gürtner proposed that the killings be stopped - to his 24 July note Gürtner attached copies of reports citing the public rumors (Friedlander, pp 120f, citing PS-627, NO-832 - Gürtner to Lammers correspondence, see NMT Green Series, vol 1 p 805, I've not tracked down the Nuremberg docs themselves). On the 27th Lammers forwarded the information to Bouhler. It was this back and forth the eventually pried from Bouhler - to Gürtner - the Führer authorization. On his copy of the order Gürtner wrote the date of receipt (27 August) and that Bouhler had given him the copy.

Schmidt (no citation) says that complaints also reached Brandt.

I don’t have a document citation for this but in his Brandt bio Schmidt also says that the rumors about Grafeneck were so rampant that Himmler proposed closing the facility during 1940 and showing propaganda movies to counteract the rumors (p 147, citing Rost, p 102).

Theophilo Wurm sent a letter of protest to Frick in July 1940, copying Gürtner. Not getting a reply, Wurm wrote to Frick again, asking if Hitler knew about the killings, on 5 September. (Schmidt, p 147) Bishop Bertram, chair of Fulda Conference, in August 1940 wrote to Lammers about the T4 killings. Cardinal Faulhaber wrote a protest to Gürtner on 6 November. Condemnation from Piux XII on 2 December. (p 148)

On 27 September 1940 Adolf Freiher von Oeynhausen (government president, Minden) went to Brandt about the rumors about T4. Schmidt traces back to two physicians in asylums the source of Oeynhausen’s information. Swedish and American journalists were reporting the rumors [NO-1658]. Also, citing NO-3059 (NMT, Green Series, p 807), Schmidt says that Hermann Roehm, head of teaching division for Physicians School at Alt-Rehse protested to Brandt himself. Roehm had heard about the killings from Dr Kurt Klare and was concerned about the manner in which relatives were informed of the deaths. He met with Brandt in Berlin.

The Catholic Church also was hearing about the killings from its priests. During 1940, according to Schmidt, “some of this intelligence was passed to the Vatican, and, subsequently, channeled to the British Foreign Office through the British Embassy in Bern. ["TNA, FO 371, 26508, 26509, 26510, 26518, 26526, 26554,; FO 371, 26513, 1941: Reported killing of aged, infirm and insane persons and abnormal children, and seriously maimed casualties: possible utilization for experiments on effect of poison gas: suggested utilization for British whispering campaign: FO 317, 24329, 1940: Reported destruction of mentally defective and inform persons . . .”] (Schmidt, p 148) On reports from the Vatican, an official in the British Foreign Office in October 1940 noted that “this question is doubtless connected with story current that in Germany mental defectives are being liquidated.” [TNA, FO 371, 26508]. Also a rumor in Munich making the rounds that 80,000 had been killed in this manner. Schmidt details more summer 1940 protests but I will spare you - more information on T4 processes going to the British by December (the von Bodelschwingh stuff in Hans's earlier post).
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Re: Andy Ritchie - Docs / Info he's not addressing

Postby Hans » Tue Apr 04, 2017 5:27 pm

Here's another contemporary source on gassing rumors predating the British sib:

"In Ravensburg, we doctors are increasingly asked about the grey buses. We deny the guesses, but it won't be long that they laugh us in the face that we are lying. The circulating rumors are worse than if the actual facts were known, because they don't guess the technique. They say: The ill people are shot or war gases are tried on them."

(report of Wilhelm Weskott to Eugen Stähle of 12 July 1940, quoted in Klee, Euthanasie im NS-Staat, p. 210; my translation)
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Re: Andy Ritchie - Docs / Info he's not addressing

Postby Hans » Tue Apr 04, 2017 5:42 pm

Another:

"It was claimed that the ill people are subjects for experiments with poison gas and that the asylum staff was put under oath to maintain special secrecy of the carried out killings."


(letter of public prosecutor of Stuttgart to Franz Gürtner of 12 Oktober 1940, quoted in Klee, Dokumente zur Euthanasie, p. 211; my translation)

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Re: Andy Ritchie - Docs / Info he's not addressing

Postby BRoI » Tue Apr 04, 2017 6:50 pm

Ritchie" wrote:On 3rd December 1940 a sib was launched via SOE[21]
“that the Superintendent of the Bethel Institute for Incurables had been sent to Dachau for refusing to permit the inmates to be put in lethal chambers. Within two weeks it was reported that this rumour was circulating in Switzerland and, on the 19th December, that the Vatican had issued a decree condemning the killing of physical or mental deficients. The rumour has appeared in intercepted letters, and last Sunday the Sunday Express carried the story that 100,000 mental deficients had been executed.” [emphasis added]

[21] SO2 Executive Committee, Progress Report for Week Ending 23.1.41, HS 8/216.


I will check HS 8/216 next time I'm at Kew, but I wonder why Ritchie claims the sib was launched 03.12.40 but cites a report dated over seven weeks later.

I believe this is the source of the information that UPC used in Ritchie's critical sib. He's just isn't telling us the correct dates, i.e. when it was suggested, and when it was approved.

BRITISH LEGATION
BERNE

10th December, 1940

Dear Rex [Leeper, Head of the Foreign Office Political Intelligence Department]

After some mental effort in making a summary of the enclosed, I have decided that it is worth while sending it to you complete, in the hope that some of it may come in handy for the "underground front" item of the B.B.C. [...]

I have from time to time received anonymous letters, or letters from persons unknown to me, stating that the Nazis in Germany have been murdering wholesale inmates of institutions for the insane, deformed, crippled or incurable. I have never thought these stories good enough to pass on, but I have now received a memorandum from our ultra cautious Consul-General in Zurich, who only produces intelligence about Germany once in a blue moon. He nevertheless says that the source can be considered reliable. The source got it from an informant who lives at Bethel near Bielefeld, the Bodelschwing institution for the crippled and deformed. According to this information, many thousands of the inmates of the institutions have been secretly murdered in the last few months.

The decisions are taken by the Directors of certain homes and sanatoria in Baden, among others Medizinalrat Dr. Sprauer of Karlsruhe attached to the Kultus Ministerium. Patients are removed in grey-coloured vans without knowing their destination and for their destruction they are sent to Grafeneck, near Münsingen in Würtemberg or to Linz in Upper Austria where they are poisoned or electrocuted (some of my earlier reports said they were used for trying out poison gases). There are apparently no institutions in North Germany for these purposes The bodies are incinerated and the ashes sent "without charge" to the relations. Inconvenient enquiries are met by assurances that the disease was contagious. Three hundred have disappeared from two small institutions alone; at Herten near Waldshut and Wiechs near Schopfheim, both in Baden. A large institute at Illenau in Baden has been closed down because there are no patients left. The matter is getting known in South Germany, where at least one person has disappeared after referring to it in the presence of a Gestapo agent, and Landesbischoff Wurm of Stuttgart has made a protest in Berlin.

The above is a summary of the memorandum, and I pass it on to you in case you may have had corroboration from other sources in which case it might come in useful. I would particularly ask, however, that if any use is made of this information, care should be taken that there should be no reference whatever to its having emanated from Switzerland. The Swiss have quite enough trouble on their hands with their neighbours already, and the frequent references in the B.B.C. to reports from Zurich etc. do us no good.

yours very
David V. Kelly

[emphasis added]
- FO 371/26508 [pp.102-103], C443/18/18, "Received in Registry 15th Jan. 1941"
"... these witnesses would swear to anything if it gets the Germans killed."
- Solomon Surowitz, Assistant Prosecutor at the 1947 Buchenwald trial.


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